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Thread: Business is business, or "How to be heard"

  1. #1

    Default Business is business, or "How to be heard"

    To the players, Horizons is an escape from the Real World, and a pleasent form of interactive entertainment.

    To EI Interactive, it is first of all a business, and hopefully second, a passion.

    But, since it is a business, what can we the players do to make sure they hear our hopes, fears, and suggestions? By putting yourselves in their shoes, and trying to view it from their perspective. ( yes, this will be a hard thing to do, since it requires us to for-go our own viewpoint )

    Any honest business man, realizes that, if his product is of high quality and is needed/wanted by a good portion of the population, all he need do is make people aware of it, and produce as much as he can.

    Now, as many people hear and start buying this product, some express their suggestions for improvement. A good business man listens to these suggestions. And when an improvement that is attempted is not recieved well, he again listens to that feedback as well. But, let's look at both types of communication, and add a third type.

    Suggestions are like, "the product is very nice, but what if you could improve the flavor, by adding a few new ones?"

    Constructive feedback is like, "We like the new kewi flavor, but the cabbage flavor was a good bit over the top, and many of our customers got angry when they were fooled by the name "RedLeaf" thinking this was a tea flavor. Please address these concerns asap!"

    Now, there is a third type of communication, that is like...

    "I think your products are terrible! Nothing you do is any good at all! I can't believe that you would try and pawn off such junk to your customers! We pay good money for your product, and we feel you should make it EXACTLY like we want!"

    Of the three types, which do you think will be seriously concidered, and which will be dismissed out of hand. And after you make that choice, ask yourself would YOU listen to all three types of communication?

    Clearly state what you feel. Then, they will get a firm understanding how you feel about any change they my introduce. If you like it say so. If you don't, explain why. Your desire, if you truly wish Horizions to improve and succeed, should be to help improve the game by your suggestions. And improve it for all players not just yourself.

    ANY honest business man will be happy to listen to that kind of communication!
    Last edited by Aamer Khan; August 7th, 2006 at 03:45 PM.
    As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!

    Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!

  2. #2

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    I hear what you are saying, and I agree that generic bashing doesn't accomplish much. However, I am not sure that flexing one's muscles to say "I'm the boss" to people who are paying for the service provided is really accomplishing much.

    Communication is a two way street. Yes, the game is owned by someone, but also there are people paying for it every month and if they leave, then ...

    well, are you the boss if there's nothing there to run?
    http://horizons.gamersinfo.net

    The first responsibility of a leader is to define reality. The last is to say thank you. In between, the leader is a servant.
    Max DePree

    What we anticipate seldom occurs; what we least expect generally happens.
    Benjamin Disrael

  3. #3

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    The simple fact that your post "made it through", indicates that too many are letting emotions cloud their judgement when they post. This is not some sort of paranoid ultra-censorship, but an attempt to gain control while folks calm down.

    Your post has given constructive observations, and the negative outcome of not maintaining open dialog. BUT, you did not stoop to simple bashing. This should alert ANYONE on how they too can post "freely" here.

    Quite frankly, I am all for folks speaking their minds. I do not however, believe that freedom to speak allows for such extreme disrespect for others, regardless of the perceived wrongs.

    Like I said before, this is a game we pay to play for entertainment. The forums should be where we come to discuss and discover information about Horizions, because we enjoy the game and wish to contribute to it's future. The boards should not become anyones personal soapbox used as a means to punish.
    As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!

    Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aamer Khan
    The simple fact that your post "made it through", indicates that too many are letting emotions cloud their judgement when they post. This is not some sort of paranoid ultra-censorship, but an attempt to gain control while folks calm down.
    This may be true in a perfect world, but down here it isn't always Care Bears and Sunshine. The people doing post approval are human, and they have agendas like the rest of us. They are also biased like anyone else, and they form attachments and opinions of posters. In short, not everyone will be given the same due consideration.

    You talk about Trolls Control, all well and good, but who gets to say who is and is not a Troll? In this case, those same biased moderators. One persons constructive criticism is another persons attack.

    Am I saying that EI or the moderators are overstepping their bounds? Nope, it is their money and therefore their rules. But like any other business, there is a right way and a wrong way. Smart consumers vote with their money.

    I am definitely glad to see the forums are once again open, that is definitely a positive step.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theolaerynn
    This may be true in a perfect world, but down here it isn't always Care Bears and Sunshine. The people doing post approval are human, and they have agendas like the rest of us. They are also biased like anyone else, and they form attachments and opinions of posters. In short, not everyone will be given the same due consideration.

    You talk about Trolls Control, all well and good, but who gets to say who is and is not a Troll? In this case, those same biased moderators. One persons constructive criticism is another persons attack.

    Am I saying that EI or the moderators are overstepping their bounds? Nope, it is their money and therefore their rules. But like any other business, there is a right way and a wrong way. Smart consumers vote with their money.

    I am definitely glad to see the forums are once again open, that is definitely a positive step.
    Yes, we are human. No, we are not biased, and if a mod has an attatchment to a poster, they simply do not mod that thread or post. Just a clarification here.

    Thank you

  6. #6
    Dravatar
    Guest

    Default

    Thank you Peaches for responding to Theo. Yes, we are to ask another mod to step in if there is a question of ethical behavior due to some attachment to a poster.

    There is also a chain of command, Theo. Peaches is lead mod. As humans we do have our personal likes and dislikes, but all of us do everything we can to mod objectively. If you think that I have modded incorrectly, I encourage you to PM Peaches in regards to it.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aamer Khan
    To the players, Horizons is an escape from the Real World, and a pleasent form of interactive entertainment.

    To EI Interactive, it is first of all a business, and hopefully second, a passion.

    ...

    ANY honest business man will be happy to listen to that kind of communication!

    nice post... makes a lot of sense.

    However you should note it does not apply to a business that relies on subscriptions over time and a continued subscriber base. Your scenario applies to the product business model.

    In a subscription based business the client and yes you are a client has more power and more rights to give feedback. Now yes generally hostile feedback is well never a good thing. Too much of it is a bad thing and people tend to try and shovel it to the back burner. But in this business model if you are getting this kind of feedback over and over again this is a red alert that something is wrong with your service. So whereas it may be somewhat painful to have to read this stuff if one goes through it and picks out the common issues you can discard the rest. You still in the end get valueable feedback as to what YOU as the business and service provider needs to fix and address for your paying clients.

    Of course the best way to get any subscription based model business to listen is to cancel their service and vote by not giving them their monthly service fee's.

  8. #8

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    Viewpoints are very interesting things.

    So are analogies.

    Take the picture I painted anyway you please, but realize that I meant that to illustrate the human side if responding to communication attempts. I really feel that we as players bear responsibility for our actions when we decide to post in the boards. You know I am for constructive comments even negative ones, as long as they have a modicum of respect.

    What we have seen of late does not qualify as respectful... does it.
    As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!

    Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!

  9. #9

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    I have been far from a PC for the past couple of weeks... things must have really continued on that downward spiral that had started a few days before I left when EII took over the management of the game.
    Elated that HZ is no longer in the hands of the Infidels.

    Now.. I may have to split my time between 2 games... CS:S and HZ...

  10. #10

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    Forum moderation has been removed. IRC, although no one now has a voice, when DarkEnigma came in, everyone was able to type normally.

    I think it was done to make people pause, think about what they were posting/typing and take a few deep breaths.

  11. #11
    Dravatar
    Guest

    Default

    Thank you Aamer, for an excellent post. It shows, in my opinion, exactly what I would call civil discussion in both content and syntax.

  12. #12

    Default Civility goes a long way ....

    Civility always goes a long way but the scenarios you have portrayed (from the business man side) can also be looked at from the customer side. I deal in the travel industy, if a customer was to purchase a ticket and then hear the plane company had changed hands and have no idea if they would be travelling...do you expect them to sit back and just be calm and hope when they get to the airport that things will be okay?? Guess what it does not happen this way THEY want to know. If they hear nothing they get annoyed AND frustrated.
    A simple case of BUSINESS talking to CUSTOMER goes a long way to ensuring your customer is happy and content.
    I mean no insult to the moderators, you have all done really well, but when customers need answers, it is the MANAGEMENT that need to step up to the microphone.

    Alhannah (Ranger/Elemental Archer)
    Blight
    Conclave Of Shadows

  13. #13

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    Interestingly enough, there's been a new trend in "customer service" where if the customer is being unreasonable, the practice is to either hang up on them, tell them you are unable to help them anymore and hang up on them, or hang up on them ;p

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKBanzai
    Interestingly enough, there's been a new trend in "customer service" where if the customer is being unreasonable, the practice is to either hang up on them, tell them you are unable to help them anymore and hang up on them, or hang up on them ;p
    If I have a problem with something and call and get irate with them over it and they hang up on me I will never use thier product again and will make sure every friend of mine and anyone else I can listen to me to not use that product. I would do the smae if a friend told me it had happened to them. So they will loose out on my and my friends money at least.



  15. #15

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    I could not agree more that the management NEEDS to start open dialog with the players.

    And yes, I also think they need a PR rep to help them with it. BUT, I would rather see them be transparent in their comminucations. What I mean specifically is, if they don't know an answer, they just simply say "I don't know that answer yet". No more spin, no more deceptive business speak.

    As has been seen with recent board postings, much of the player base is, not only very smart, but many work in industries that give them insight into the working of a software company, game company, or software engineering. We are not easily fooled, nor should you want to fool us. We are sadly too used to disappointment. So just say what you mean and mean what you say.

    That is the business side of responsibility. I hope this covers both sides well.
    Last edited by Aamer Khan; August 9th, 2006 at 01:21 PM.
    As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!

    Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!

  16. #16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BKBanzai
    Interestingly enough, there's been a new trend in "customer service" where if the customer is being unreasonable, the practice is to either hang up on them, tell them you are unable to help them anymore and hang up on them, or hang up on them ;p
    If a customer is using profane language directed at the CSR, making threats of physical harm, or using ethnic slurs or other offensive language, sure, most companies have a policy that allows CSRs to terminate an abusive call. Even so, the CSR normally has to advise the caller that they will be disconnecting if the abusive behavior continues.

    That's abusive behavior. A customer who is mearly irate is a service recovery opportunity and any professional service-centered organization recognizes those as their most valuable type of interaction.

    Service recovery interactions allow a service-centered organization to showcase their problem-resolution skills. A CSR who takes ownership of the issue, is empowered to seek out resolutions and escalate them as needed directly to the appropriate party, and who has a true service excellence motivation will be able to de-escalate the customer, assure them that the issue is the CSR's top priority, and keep the customer advised of what actions the CSR is taking to resolve the issue.

    By resolving the issue, the CSR turns an irate customer into a happy one and sets an expectation that future interactions will be handled the same way. The customer will be more forgiving of future service lapses and more likely to bring them to the attention of the company in a calm and reasonable manner. If the CSR managed to absolutly astound the client with the way the issue was handled & resolved, it's likely they will share their experience with several other people, establishing or building on the organization's customer service reputation.

    Even if the resolution is not what the customer desires, a service-centered CSR will be able to show the customer that all avenues were explored and will be able to tell the customer that their request was denied in an appropriatly apologetic manner.

    Any company that fail to respond to customer issues in an appropriate manner, that refuses to accept responsability or apologize for their service failures, or that takes steps to prevent customers from airing their issues entirely is doomed to failure. Just "hanging up" on a customer - even an irate one - doesn't do any good. The customer still has the initial problem, and now they have a new issue - being ignored by the company they are already angry with - as well.

    Fortunatly, failure to address customer concerns in an appropriate manner is a self-correcting behavior...
    Klaus Wulfenbach
    Mithril Council, Chaos
    "Death is fleeting. Pride is forever."


    "Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."-- Abraham Lincoln

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dravatar
    Thank you Peaches for responding to Theo. Yes, we are to ask another mod to step in if there is a question of ethical behavior due to some attachment to a poster.

    There is also a chain of command, Theo. Peaches is lead mod. As humans we do have our personal likes and dislikes, but all of us do everything we can to mod objectively. If you think that I have modded incorrectly, I encourage you to PM Peaches in regards to it.
    To the contrary, Dravatar, in my experience you have been an excellent moderator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peaches
    Yes, we are human. No, we are not biased, and if a mod has an attatchment to a poster, they simply do not mod that thread or post. Just a clarification here.
    A truely objective person would admit the possibility that they are biased, if for no other reason than it is human nature to be biased. It is innescapable, although we do not necessarily have to act upon it. But to say that our biases are completely without influence would be, in my oppinion, overestimating ourselves.

    I also believe that the harder a person denies their bias, the more out of touch with it they are, and the more likely that it has a larger influence than they will suspect or aknowledge.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

  18. #18

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    I understand what you mean Theo.

    Back when I was Herald, I had to freely admit that I had bias. I mean, how could I champion the Shard unless I was biased towards it? To claim to be unbiased would not be very honest.

    But in the job that the Mods have here, bias does NOT have a rightful place. Personal feelings for one shard over another, or against one player or another is an abuse of the trust the mods should want to maintain with the posters.

    We all have bias, but it should not see the light of day if we are a mod. Even our actions need to be careful so as to not cross that line. Even inaction can show how we feel about a player or shard.

    Forum moderaton is the toughest job I can imagine. I sure would not want it. But I do appreciate the efforts of the mods here. Even through all the uglyness, they have tried very hard to be balanced and fair... more than that I could not ask.
    As a new dawn rises over Istaria, may we all band together to meet the challenges!

    Continuing Development of Horizons... SWEET!

  19. #19
    Dravatar
    Guest

    Default

    Thanks for the support I know I appreciate it and am very sure that Peaches and Blue do as well.

    I can promise you we'll make mistakes. Please understand we have a chain of command and more importantly, a greviance system. By all means, use it if you feel something is wrong.

    We, as you, have to follow the rules and there is no joy in dealing out warning or bans. It causes backlash to us, individuals, and the community as a whole. Trust me, no one is happier than a mod to see the boards go off full mod mode.

    I'd rather be playing than modding anytime

  20. #20

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    I think it's very possible for people to be 100% objective. It does take a special type of person that can step back and do it.

    There are bosses that have familiar, even friendly, relations with subordinates that are able to balance friendship with boss/subordinate status. It's not easy to do, and I think it takes a very disciplined, self-aware person, but it's definitely doable

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