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Thread: On Multiclassing...

  1. #1

    Default On Multiclassing...

    Multiclassing is the system in place whereby we are allowed to take more than one school in adventure and/or crafting. But, is it that simple? I think not. While crafting appears to be pretty straight forward, and admittedly my knowledge here is sketchy, adventure multiclassing can be and IMO, is very complicated.

    Complicated? Yes indeed, complicated. Sure, one can level every school available to 100. What do they gain from this? Well, they'll sure enough have an adventure rating over 200 but what else? I submit that multiclassing is the system we can use to enhance and strengthen whatever school we choose to be our main adventuring school. And it is my firm belief that ANY school can be a viable main school.

    Upon embarking on a career in any adventure school destined to be the main school one should thoroughly study the school as it progresses. Study how well it fares against all foes? Does it excel vs. certain foes? Does it perform poorly or not at all vs. others? What are the school's strengths? Its weaknesses? These questions must be answered to effectively improve the school through multiclassing with a goal of being able to do whatever it is the player wishes to do.

    In an attempt to illustrate further I'm going to explain in detail how I built my toon.
    Kwinn started as a mage. His offensive abilities were adequate and as I became more familiar with the spell selection offered to a mage I realized they were potentially tremendously destructive. The weaknesses of mage I found to be many and in some cases glaring. No healing ability, no buffs, and armor best described as a Playtex Living Full Form Body Diaper and a wholesale inability to avoid being hit in melee.

    To address the lack of healing ability I took Healer school to level 100. This also provided the gift and raise lines of buffs and as a bonus an excellent Focus stat. Two holes closed. Next I felt the need to address the armor issue. While Mage gets 10 Armor Use per level, the armor used isn't worthy of the name. I saw only one real option, Battlemage to level 100. Others might have chosen Chaos Warrior or Guardian. Good schools but, I saw Battlemage as a more appropriate choice once I looked into the abilities offered. Reflect Attack and Shimmer Field give a damage shield and added Dodge and Parry. Another hole closed and a 4th partially closed. At this point I also realized that Mage as a main school was not going to satisfy my needs and Battlemage took over that role.

    I thought I had it all then. Good armor, good spells, healing and buffs. But as time went on I found I was still getting hit far too much and my damage output wasn't all I thought it should be. Another round of new school leveling loomed. To address the damage output concern I took Conjurer, Sorcerer and Wizard to level 100, and got all of the offensive capabilities I could hope for and many nice bonus abilities mostly in the form of stuns and mezzes. To address the getting hit too much? Monk, Spearman and Berserker. Improved evasion, dodge and armor rating were the results. Monk I took to level 100. Berserker and Spearman only went to level 44 of each as I saw no advantages to be gained beyond the 44 levels that would offset the time and effort expended to go any further.

    I had it all now. Wrong! Evolved Fyakkis proved that. Spiritist and Shaman solved that little problem. Spiritist gave me Improved Spirit Bolt and Spirit Resistance V to name but 2 things I use from that school. Spirit Bolt completely ignores Harden Shell and Evolved Shell. I stopped Spiritist at level 85. This was the level needed to cast Spirit Resistance V and as my power skill was so high that Improved Spirit IV was doing sufficient damage I saw no need to take the school further. Shaman was tempting to run to level 100 but, I stopped at level 96. Those last 4 levels gave no benefit to justify the added time and effort. And seeing the advantages of some skill in those schools I looked into Druid and discovered Forest Mist. Further study revealed that 88 levels of Druid would also give Nature Ward and Nature Resistance V spells. A lot of work for just 2 spells but, they have proved their worth time and again vs. Tier 5 Oracles.

    Lastly, further study of the schools available revealed the odd beneficial ability here and there that I thought would be of benefit. The Disciple schools each offered a passive ward masterable at level 56 and Cleric offered Dispirit Foe for a minimal investment.

    Masterable abilities: I think this concept needs a bit of clarifying. A masterable ability is an ability that one gains in a given school but can use with ANY active school. Masterable abilities come in 2 types, Active and Passive. Active requires the player to activate the ability, to manually use it. Passive means it is there, no input required. To master an ability, first off the ability must be masterable. The description of the ability is the clue, if it says 'Cannot be Mastered' that says it all. If the description does not say it 'Cannot be Mastered" this is a masterable ability. The ability is mastered when you gain twice the levels that you needed to gain the ability. For instance: Spearman offers a Passive +20 Block Bonus at level 22, it is MASTERED at level 44 Spearman.

    So in the end I was able to enhance the Mage's existing abilities and strengths and resolve the weaknesses. No, I don't have 20 schools all at level 100. I have elements of 18 schools. 8 are indeed at level 100. The remaining 10 range from level 30 to level 96. There is no need to take them all to level 100. The resulting build allows me to hunt whatever I wish, where-ever I wish. And anyone can do the same. With any school. The key is a thorough knowledge of the intended main. Then a willingness to take the time to study the other schools available. What can they offer to enhance or improve the main? How many levels to master the ability? Do I really need it?

    Of course, one might ask, why multiclass? Simple, if you to be to hunt everything with a reasonable chance at success, multiclassing is indispensable. Sure, some single classed folks can make an argument that they can hunt WHATEVER they want. I would ask, "Can you hunt everything?" Golems, abominations, bugs etc those are pretty straight forward one on one fights. Wolves, treants, Aegrors, blights, vexators, undead etc those boys are social, can help each other, will help each other and often are linked in groups of 2 to 8. Sure, a single classed can survive them, mainly by running or killing the little packs of 2. 3 or more and somebody is gonna be in deep pickled Korean cabbage in a hurry. Multiclassed on the other hand, can perform much better and dependant upon the extent of multiclassing and player skill, win those fights handily.

    Multiclassing is by no means the be all, end all of anyone's given hunting expectations. Player skill is the ultimate arbiter of one's success in the hunt. It takes practice, time, patience and study to develop a truly powerful multiclassed biped. Even given all of this one still needs gear. Preferably teched to a high degree of customization taking into account weaknesses in the build, strengths of the build, play style and player skill. Player skill is the probably the biggest hurdle. Being brutally honest with one's self will go a LONG way to addressing weaknesses in in-game ability.

    Training Points are probably the most versatile concept we are given. We can really customize with Training Points. They can be used to enhance offensive capabilities by placing them in melee skills or spells skills. They can enhance statistics or Evasion. The choices are many and only the player can truly gauge their best use. Fortunately, if one puts Training Points in a skill and later decides they would be better elsewhere, the TP can be 'bought back' and moved.

    Make no mistake, multiclassing is a chore. It is a grind every bit as mind numbing as grinding out a craft school. Endless killing, endless trophy farming. Starting a new school at level 20 and having an adventure rating over 100 is a royal pain. At this point, you get to start out the new school fighting things that can drop you like a bad habit and the damage you can do isn't exactly setting the world on fire. However, the skills mastered from previous schools really come to the fore here. They are the difference between winning and losing. Use them all, it's only matter of setting up enough hotkeys.

    Multiclassing offers the biped player the opportunity to become a force to be reckoned with by any measure. One can multiclass and become a successful solo hunter, a successful group hunter or both. The system is there to use. Using it wisely will allow you create a character that will provide you with many, many hours of entertainment. Enjoy the ride! J
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  2. #2

    Default

    Very awesome read =) Thanks Kwinn!

  3. #3

    Default

    This must be stickied on some forum somewhere--it's as fine a guide as I've ever had the pleasure of reading in any game.

    Well done Kwinn!
    Before you criticize anyone, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you criticize him, you'll be a mile away. And you'll have his shoes.

  4. #4
    Anima
    Guest

    Default Mmm... Multiclassing.

    <waves!>

    Kwinn, in your opinion, for your build what are the most important factors in order of importance? IE. Armor, damage output, healing, crowd control, etc.

    The creatures of Istaria are diverse and dangerous, I have my own personal set of tactics, what are yours? Against casters, melee, bosses, epic, event, swarms.

    <waves!>

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima
    <waves!>

    Kwinn, in your opinion, for your build what are the most important factors in order of importance? IE. Armor, damage output, healing, crowd control, etc.

    The creatures of Istaria are diverse and dangerous, I have my own personal set of tactics, what are yours? Against casters, melee, bosses, epic, event, swarms.

    <waves!>
    My build is aimed 100% at out-lasting my foes. Through damage avoidance, damage mitigation, healing, crowd control and killin them before they kill me; it is all about survival. No one factor is more important than any other IMO. How they all mesh together is what is of importance. The last man standing wins, my build generally makes me THAT last man. I use a variety of tactics to win, or 'every dirty trick in the book'.

    Swarms: I usually use Daunting Mist to slow em down then back off and bomb from a distance.

    Melee: Dispirit, DoTs and stun teched energy bolt

    Casters: same as melee

    Healer types: They get the nuke treatment. Nuke, stun, nuke, stun, nuke, mezz, nuke

    Named: keep em away and hammer em to the ground as quickly as possible by all means at my disposal

    Epic & Event: Group, well-oiled group knowledgable players that already have an idea what it takes to drop the given critter. The critters generally don't have a chance

    I am a firm believer in 'reach out and touch' my spells are range teched except bolts. I also believe in any tech that drops speed, stuns or increases delay. Resistance lowering techs are good too.
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  6. #6

    Default

    I think this should be stickied with Kwinn's Undead Hunting Guide.

    Though it does make a difference to be well equipped and well patched, I would like to emphasize that style and patience play as much importance in hunting on the Satyr islands.

    To help stock up the Guild supplies, I started hunting on the islands. I try not to do any hunting and lose any XP, So there I was, a level 85 Conjurer (filling in another hole ), in a mixed set of padded ironsilk and cargo gear, and over a few hours I managed to kill my way around the entire island in a circuit. I only left behind Diviners and shamen over 90 By trial and error, I found I can't kill them as a conjuerer form no matter what abilities I have available for the alpha strike. I know a number of folks who won't go out there in anything less than full mith Plate hehe. They are amused when I swap out my pants for the Smiley Shorts.

    Do you have any suggestions for the Shamen/Diviners? I was told Energy Bolts with Stun, and then land the occasional multi/crit/cleave, but alas I don't have any Energy skill :\ I probably would also have a better time of it if I were in SpiritD Mode where I have crit V and a higher MultiStrike and Flurry. I have been considering getting Energy or Mind to add to my flexibility but don't like adventuring quite that much hehe...

    I'm ok with not being able to take EVERYTHING in game though. My last intended patch is probably Ranger for some speed buffs since I am primarily a crafter a heart.

    Your posts are inspiring Kwinn

    -HratLi

    EDIT: Another Question. I will have Fire and Ice Bolts thanks to Conjuerer. What are your thoughts on best techs to throw on those bombs/bolts?

    I learned that Pierce and gale on a bomb V are pretty nice on farming lower level mobs Any other thoughts?

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  7. #7
    Anima
    Guest

    Default

    <waves!>

    Quote Originally Posted by Kwinn
    Swarms: I usually use Daunting Mist to slow em down then back off and bomb from a distance.

    Melee: Dispirit, DoTs and stun teched energy bolt

    Casters: same as melee

    Healer types: They get the nuke treatment. Nuke, stun, nuke, stun, nuke, mezz, nuke

    Named: keep em away and hammer em to the ground as quickly as possible by all means at my disposal.
    Your tactics and mine are sounding pretty much the same. Via your descriptions "crowd control" is your main source of damage mitigation and ultimate means of survival. Crowd control being; Disruption of enemy casting, slowing enemy movement rate to keep distance, slowing of enemy attack rate.

    Would you agree?

    <Waves!>

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HratLi
    I think this should be stickied with Kwinn's Undead Hunting Guide.

    Though it does make a difference to be well equipped and well patched, I would like to emphasize that style and patience play as much importance in hunting on the Satyr islands.

    To help stock up the Guild supplies, I started hunting on the islands. I try not to do any hunting and lose any XP, So there I was, a level 85 Conjurer (filling in another hole ), in a mixed set of padded ironsilk and cargo gear, and over a few hours I managed to kill my way around the entire island in a circuit. I only left behind Diviners and shamen over 90 By trial and error, I found I can't kill them as a conjuerer form no matter what abilities I have available for the alpha strike. I know a number of folks who won't go out there in anything less than full mith Plate hehe. They are amused when I swap out my pants for the Smiley Shorts.

    Do you have any suggestions for the Shamen/Diviners? I was told Energy Bolts with Stun, and then land the occasional multi/crit/cleave, but alas I don't have any Energy skill :\ I probably would also have a better time of it if I were in SpiritD Mode where I have crit V and a higher MultiStrike and Flurry. I have been considering getting Energy or Mind to add to my flexibility but don't like adventuring quite that much hehe...

    I'm ok with not being able to take EVERYTHING in game though. My last intended patch is probably Ranger for some speed buffs since I am primarily a crafter a heart.

    Your posts are inspiring Kwinn

    -HratLi

    EDIT: Another Question. I will have Fire and Ice Bolts thanks to Conjuerer. What are your thoughts on best techs to throw on those bombs/bolts?

    I learned that Pierce and gale on a bomb V are pretty nice on farming lower level mobs Any other thoughts?
    Healer types I could cuss about at length but Peaches would make me eat soap so....

    I pull with Improved Flame Wave with t5 techs range, damage and combust. Set up the multicast and fire off Fiery Strike V, similarly teched, with Spellbind in queue. Then Burning Hands V with Stunner in queue, followed by Stinging Cold with Dynamic Pulse in queue. If the target gets off an instant, and it happens sometimes, Dispirit Foe and hit it with everything you have and try for stunning and mezzing whenever possible till multicast recycles

    Teching Bolts damage, resistance reduction, combust and icesnare are my choices

    Teching Bombs range, damage, combust and chill are my choices
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Anima
    <waves!>



    Your tactics and mine are sounding pretty much the same. Via your descriptions "crowd control" is your main source of damage mitigation and ultimate means of survival. Crowd control being; Disruption of enemy casting, slowing enemy movement rate to keep distance, slowing of enemy attack rate.

    Would you agree?

    <Waves!>
    My main damage mitigation is high armor value and 500+ resistance vs the critter's damage type. Damage avoidance is from block, parry, dodge, high evasion and 300+ ward vs the critter's damage type.

    Crowd Control Debase, Daunting Mist, Numbing Haze, Ice Snare techs, Shocked techs, Stun techs, Stunner Ability, Dynamic Pulse Ability, Spellbind Ability. Dispsirit Foe, Warped Perception.

    I use crowd control to nail em to the ground for killing at leisure, to reduce numbers of incoming attacks, to stop them healing each other, keep em at a distance and if it gets real nasty, in conjunction with Sprint to RUN LIKE HELL!
    Kwinn
    Mortal Danger is an effective antidote for fixed ideas... Erwin Rommel

    Dulce Bellum Inexpertis

    Dog: The other white meat

    Order Server

    Heavily multiclassed Human Hunter, 'overpowered' to the nth degree of beejeezusness and damned proud of it. Nerf me, go ahead make my day

  10. #10

    Default

    Well still need to hit Blight Kwinn

    Yes you have summed it up nicely. I get asked repeatedly how I can do what I do. It takes lots of work and even more knowledge. As you said most important is to know what school you want your main to be. I chose Warrior from day one.

    I am still improving my character as we speak, but mainly due to boredom. I can handle myself in most situations, soloing being the key. They are some areas of Istaria I can improve on, but until I am comfortable dealing with what the current environment has brought to those areas I pass on them.

    Jayne

  11. #11

    Default

    Very Nice Kwinn

    I was going to write out something about how I play considering Im a Healer Main but I havnt the words and who would want advice from me. I would just get someone killed. But you have the skill to write a text book on Combat my friend.
    Warsong
    Paladin/Healer

    Don't cry because its over,Smile because it happend

  12. #12

    Thumbs up

    Thats a very helpful post, thanx a lot, Kwinn!
    snickel wigglsniff (retired) Twilight Crusaders on Unity
    poggle wigglsniff (gnomish crafter and mage) semi-retired on Order
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    A gnomish house should not just sit there, it should definitely DO something!

  13. #13

    Default

    well kwinn it sounds like you found out something: every class has it's uses. You could truely level up every single class out there to some extent and get something out of it for your main. Of course it is up to the player to decide if the boon is worth the time required and the AR penalty.

    However there is one thing about your post that I did not like: the attitude of "I need to be able to do it all" Balancing the offensive firepower of the mage with the buffing and healing of a healer and the stability of a battlemage is all well and good. Even taking up spearman for extra defense. However, it is when you said "well ******** I can't kill fyakki's, I should take up spirit classes" that I feel you went astray.

    It seems to reflect something that is wrong with the game in general, every player's need to be 100% self sufficent. That goes for crafting as well. Players no longer tailor themselves to being a successful and contributing part of a group, as they should in an MMO, but instead making themselves the group. Maybe it is a result of lack of endgame content to keep people focused on a single goal - to keep them striving to improve a particular aspect of their character, or maybe it is because the community is so small and what is the point of being part of a group when that group is so hard to form? As a result, the game continually moves from an MMORPG to just an RPG with a monthly fee.
    Hiko - Former Defender of Shadow
    100 Knight of Creation Hybrid
    -= Disciples =-
    BOYCOTTING THE SUMMONED SHIELD OF CREATION AS OF JULY 17TH, 2006

  14. #14

    Default

    I do believe he mentioned you can tailor yourself to be either or. A solo specialist or a group player specialist didn't he? Personally I find that amazing and beautiful in a game. I loved WoW for this reason, as I could go hunt on my own and do my own quest if I felt like it, or, I could group up and go kill/do things with others. It was awesome.

    Here it's the same... You tailor your classes to be all it can be and where you want to be in a group. You aren't restricted. You can be the solo-ist, or the group-ist. It's your choice.

    Kwinn happens to like the solo path =)

  15. #15

    Default Re: On Multiclassing...

    Sorry for the massive necro but as it's a stickied post I figure it makes little difference.

    I saw in another thread a comment about inherited abilities where it was suggested that if you level a class to 100 and it gets an ability to say level V, and then switch to a different class which would also learn the same ability, you'd be able to continue to use the level V ability from your original class. Are inherited abilities really a thing and if so, how do they work?

    For example, if I'm a level 100 Warrior which has earned Multistrike IV, and I switch to start Berserker. I'm fairly sure I'd still be able to use Multistrike II even as a level 1 because that's been mastered as a Warrior, but would I inherit Multistrike V instead due to the above?

    What if I switched to Battle Mage, which can only get Multistrike II, would I be able to use IV or only the mastered II? Does that mean you could be a Battle Mage with Multistrike IV and Multispell V if you main BTLM and have WARR/CONJ at 100 too?

    I thought this question was suited to this thread, given it's a sticky about multiclassing and this is the only question I was left with after reading it.

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