Lairbuilding has to be revised

[Nalrach]

Before you scream wrong place to post .. if they had a general section under dragon I would have, but they only have crafter & adventurer forums, no genereal or lairshaping.
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Back in the days when the reason, justification and decision was given for the lairshaping skill and things were discussed I wasn't around, so bare with me.

At that time I wasn't really in the game, and was searching for another MMPORG for the lack of HZ challenge it was giving and the too manytime of broken promisses. Well the announce of the Lairshaping was finally delivered and failure to find another game that interested me and the news of the expension pack brought me back to HZ.

Since nothing has changed for my byped and Tulga make life to crafter difficult by requiring adventuring skill, I decided to give a try to draggy life. I was quite impressed by New-Trimus and the training quest offered to draggy and the fact that raggon had all kind of quest for progression (altough found one quest at the time a drag). I decided to subcribe a second account so that I could give lairbuilding a shot .... Well I soon got quite disapointed. Been a month and half now and I have 63% of my first room done, when my byped can build alone the byped equivalence in 2 days. Adn if I was a lower level builder, I could trade with friends to get part done, but has draggy evryone has the same issue and have to incline or time to help.

My conclusion .... lairbuilding has to be revised.

Justification: Just check the convo in Dragon channel and you will see that evryone kind of agree, it has to change.

WAIT !!! .. I do not want to start another byped vs dragon war, so calm down.

I was told they wanted to make lairshaping a bit hard since draggy have one school versus the five schools byped have. Well I never understood why draggy had one adv school (2 styles), one craft school and one lair building school. I'm not going to get into craft or adv issue.

Okay, one lair building school .. decision was taken:.... let's make it harder for draggy so that byped wont whine.

Fine but why one school? Why not 3; stone, metal & crystal. That would have been more fair to byped and more inline with the rest of the game. and we could have choosen a bit of a different table for xp so that total XP for the 3 school equals the total XP of the byped five school. Another issue that needs to be explore is the number of resources required to build an equivalent room. For that let me give some numbers for a T1 hall in the case of byped or draggy doing the work. (** see following message for complete count)

A Dragon T1 hall at 2:1 cap will require the following;
. Coper & tin ..... 142520
. dim essence ... 73920
. sand slab ....... 97300
. veridian crystal . 41440
. Gems (all) ....... 73920
. Total = 429100

A Human T1 hall at 2:1 cap will require the following;
. Copper & Tin ...... 3200
. Cedar board ..... 3200
. Flax ................. 3200
. Sand slab .......... 3200
. Total = 12800

Facts of disbelief: It takes 33.5 time more resources for a draggy to build the same room. This is rediculous.

Let's take the justification of one school versus five for byped. Okay penalise me, ask for 5 times the same amount of resources. I could even accept 10 times, but 33 times, their is no justification for that much difference.

So the action that is to be consider are:

. 1) Change to 3 schools (metal, stone & crystal ( to line up with the rest of the game)
. 2) Adjust the number of base resources required to reflect 1 school versus 5 school. (not 1:33 ratio)

This is my hatchling view on the topic and some elders will probably cold me for speaking, but hey .. I'm free to express my views.

Ramti
Lunus Hatchlins
32 adv, 40 craft, 29 lair

[Nalrach]

A Dragon T1 hall at 2:1 cap will require the following;

2x / unit of 252x Imbued bronze bar >>
... 1 bar = 15x bronze bar (2 resources/ bar) + 15x dim orb (2x essence / orb)
... ... 2x 252x 15x 2 = 15120 copper & tin , and
... ... 2x 252x 15x 2 = 15120 dim essence

2x / unit of 350x weak excorciation of earth >>
... 1 excor, = 15x sandstone brick (2 slab / brick) + 15x bronze bar (2 resources/ bar)
... ... 2x 350x 15x 2 = 21000 sand slab
... ... 2x 350x 15x 2 = 21000 copper & tin

2x / unit of 280x primal essence of melding >>
... 1 essence = 15x dim orb (2x essence / orb) + 15 x Focus Veridian crystal (2x unfocuss crystal / focus crystal)
... ... 2x 280x 15x 2 = 16800 dim essence
... ... 2x 280x 15x 2 = 16800 unfocus crystal

2x / unit of 350 rough flowstone >>
... 20x Sandstone cast stone ( 2x sand brick [2x slab / brick] + 2x dim essence) + 20x bronze bar (2 resources/ bar)
... ... 2x 350x 20x = 14000 stone
... ... ... 14000x 2x 2 = 56000 sand slab
... ... ... 14000x 2 = 28000 dim essence
... ... 2x 350x 20x 2 = 28000 copper & tin

2x / unit of 490 rough Maelstone >>
... 20x Bronze lodestone ( 2x bronze bar [2x ore / bar] + 2x sandstone slab) + 20x dim orb (2 resources/ orb)
... ... 2x 490x 20x = 19600 stone
... ... ... 19600x 2x 2 = 78400 copper & tin
... ... ... 19600x 2 = 39200 sand slab
... ... 2x 490x 20x 2 = 39200 dim essence

2x / unit of 308 Crystaline latice >>
... 20x Rough tri cut gem [2x ea; garnet, malachite, turquoise] ) + 20x focus veridian crystal (2x unfocuss crystal / focus crystal)
... ... 2x 308x 20x = 12320 stone
... ... ... 12320x 2 = 24640 garnet
... ... ... 12320x 2 = 24640 malachite
... ... ... 12320x 2 = 24640 turquoise
... ... 2x 308x 20x 2 = 24640 unfocus crystal

Coper & tin .... 15120 + 21000 + ------- + 28000 + 78400 + ------- = 142520
dim essence ... 15120 + ------- + 16800 + 28000 + 39200 + ------- = 73920
sand slab ....... ------ + 21000 + ------ + 56000 + 39200 + ------- = 97300
veridian crystal . ---- + ------- + 16800 + ------ + ------ + 24640 = 41440
Gems (all) ....... ---- + ------- + 16800 + ------ + ------ + 73920 = 73920
. Total = 429100

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A Human T1 hall at 2:1 cap will require the following;

2x/ unit of 25 Bronze jointing (20x bronze bar [2 resources/ bar])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 2000 copper & tin

2x/ unit of 15 Bronze sheeting (20x bronze bar [2 resources/ bar])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 1200 copper & tin

2x/ unit of 25 Cedar Brace(20x cedar board [2 resources/ board])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 2000 cedar board

2x/ unit of 15 Cedar timber (20x cedar board [2 resources/ board])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 1200 cedar board

2x/ unit of 25 Flax tapestry (20x flax spool [2 resources/ spool])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 2000 flax

2x/ unit of 15 flax bolt (20x flax spool [2 resources/ spool])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 1200 flax

2x/ unit of 25 Sandstone key (20x bronze bar [2 resources/ bar])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 2000 sand slab

2x/ unit of 15 Sandstone block (20x Sandstone brick [2 resources/ brick])
... 2x 25x 20x 2 = 1200 sand slab

Copper & Tin ...... 2000 + 1200 = 3200
Cedar board ....... 2000 + 1200 = 3200
Flax ................. 2000 + 1200 = 3200
Sand slab .......... 2000 + 1200 = 3200
. Total =12800
. 33.5 time less resources

[Kwinn]

So does mob aggro

So does group xp

So do biped adventure schools

So some biped craft schools

So do the loot tables

So too does lairshaping

Pick yer poison lotta work to be done How does one give priority to any one over any other? Not a task I would want.

[MadDwarf]

Dude !!! I love the numbers

but seriously Horizons is one big grind. Press EII should they ever take to developing that the grind has simply got to go.

[Lumineux]

I agree with Kwinn on this one. It may be a little wonky, but there is a lot of stuff that needs more work than lairshaping, and very little development going around to do it...

[Kulamata]

Lair shaping was developed late, when the "Grind = Accomplishment" mindwarp had sunk its evil tentacles deep into the brains and souls of the developers.

I "suppose" a case could be made for tier V and VI rooms to be major grinds, but tier I??? That's just mean.

It would be easy to fix too; just change some table values.

Trivial compared to say, confectioner.

[Dragoniade]

Don't forget the 'self centered' problem of lairshapping.

With biped crafting, you don't really have to level 5 schools.
You level 1 or 2 to the max, then trade work with another worker that leveled the opposite school. You can contribute to each other's plot without steping on each others toes.

With Lairshaping, since dragon are all clone of each others, if I decide to help another dragon, I'll be doing the same thing to his/her plot that I would be on mine. I won't get the benefit of working on what I'm better, since we both get the same skills, the same progression.

[Chaldor Itieles]

Well I can understand your point of view, but on the other side, dont forget that bipeds have less bulk that dragons, need tools, have to use roads and cannot fly.
So, if they change that 1:1 for T1 Biped <-> T1 Dragon it would not be fair for bipeds.
A reduction by 50% I could understand...

[Aamer Khan]

Yes, the resource requirements for lairs are over the top, have spilled on the floor and dribbled into the street.

This had become the bizarre viewpoint the devs had evolved into when TG had control. It seemed that tedium was viewed as the hallmark of accomplishment... ( and they believed it would keep players playing longer, thus extending the life of the sub ). They told bipeds much the same thing about T6 crafting, and even went so far as to remove almost all T6 resources they had already put in game. We were told that if we were patient, we would finally understand why they had done it and it would be better for the game in the long run.

It seemed that every time they made an "adjustment" it was much more than it needed to be. I guess you could argue that change it alot, see how it goes and then adj again a few more times till you get it set properly. The trouble was, they rarely ever revisited a change to fine tune. Thus we arrive at where we are today, with many long term players paranoid about the future.

My hope atm is that EII will carefully review what has gone before, try and learn from past mistakes, and return FUN to the game. They will never be able to remove all tedium, and that's ok. As long as they IMPROVE the game play and raise the enjoyment level, I can live with some tedium!.

[Chioxin]

If it's an easy fix, I'd hope they can at least reduce it a little bit. I don't think what bipeds understand is that we need to go to 2 or even 3 different resource fields to get what we need to do our crafting. Higher teirs, these fields are not close AT ALL. It's a royal pain in the tail logistically. I'm already seeing the pain with just T1 stuff and I'm in parsinia and thankfully have the use of silo's there via my guild!!!! If i didn't have those, screw this! You bipeds just have to go to one field, yes carry with you some tools, but you still go to one tool, gather one resource, refine it to one refined resource, and refine that to the construction block you need. We need to refine 2 resources, to get one block, or some times 3 resources to get one block. It's silly.

I feel for Kwinn and others though, there's a lot of unfinished stuff that needs finishing that isn't dragon related. We've gotten our share and it's nice! I do like the lairs. I ask for a few... interesting decoration rooms please, like bipeds and trees or walls... but over all I'm happy except for the grind.

If it's an easy fix as Kulamata thinks where some values can be changed, awesome! please do it! If not... There are other more important issues at stake... I can deal with this. And I've friends who can help with the traveling and smaller resources.

[Sharduk]

When you consider what can be built on a regular sized lair vs a regular sized bi ped plot , when you consider the incredible storage options on a reg sized lair vs a regular sized bi ped plot .... well , a lair is just incredibly superior, and IMO it should be equivalently harder to construct.


Sharduk

[Takora Drakan]

When you consider what can be built on a regular sized lair vs a regular sized bi ped plot , when you consider the incredible storage options on a reg sized lair vs a regular sized bi ped plot .... well , a lair is just incredibly superior, and IMO it should be equivalently harder to construct.


Sharduk

Did you thougth about that bipeds can easy replace their silos without losing place? Dragon silos go in the depp and wide with every tier, and the ress requirements are simply silly to build a t5 silo, its better you build 5 t1 silos for the storage.

[Fourwinds]

There is not a 1:1 mapping for all dragon items to biped items in lairshaping ...

Dragons have 6 tiers of shops ... going from +15 -> +90 crafting skill

Bipeds have just 3 tiers ... going from +25 -> +75 crafting skill

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Dragons have 1 crafting skill and all equipment for making items are carried without any weight problems

Bipeds have to level each crafting skill and have the appropriate item taking up bulk

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Dragons use the new 'tree' structure for plot creation and have to create things from the entrance downwards ....

Bipeds can build the plot in whichever order they want to ....

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The same amount of resources are needed for each tier of a dragon structure.

Biped resource requirements increase with each level of building.

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Having said all that ... I personally like the way dragon crafting is today .... It has a large sense of satisfaction when you complete a large room ....

[Drevar]

Once again, people fall into self laid biped vs dragon trap. They are to distinct and sepeate experiences. The dragon game and the biped game are not meant to compete or compare to one another. They are two seperate experiences. You cannot try to equalize or balance them. They are two seperate experiences. Don't number crunch stats or resource requirements, don't equate hoard to biped multiclassing, don't justify extremely powerful abilities with inherent hardships of dragons.

Say it with me, "They are two distinct and seperate game experiences!"

Drev

[Amerelium]

Listen, lessers live in puny houses that we could obliterate with a slight cough. We live in grand halls under the mountains - of course it takes more of an effort to build them...

[Theolaerynn]

Couple of things:

First, if Lairs can hold more than your average Bi-Ped plot (this depends upon what you build, but on average I would say is true) then completing one should take more effort. And it does. You have more buildings to build, and therefore more work to do.

Second, Dragons have fewer crafting schools, so fewer levels to gain. Also, there is little cross-trading because there really isn't any benefit to it, unlike Bi-Peds. For example, Alchemists and Blacksmiths.

Now, if you are the kind that wants to make Dragons and Bi-Peds equivalent, then I think you have missed the point of Horizons. There are pros and cons to each.

If you feel that there needs to be some kind of balance between them, then this discussion has been in full swing for over 3 years, with no answer in sight.

But no matter which camp you are in, I find it difficult to the point of impossibility to justify making Dragon construction 33 times more difficult than Bi-Ped construction. There is just no rational way to claim that Dragons have that kind of advantage over Bi-Peds. I strongly doubt you could argue a 10x multiplier and expect any objective person to agree, but I would honestly settle for that.

I am trying to build a T-2 Hall (guild hall equivalent). At max skill (level 44 Lairshaper, 100 Crafter), good resource location, and a flying cargo disk I am making 1% per two hours of work. At this rate I am looking at 200 hours in game to finish one room. It has been all solo work so far.

[Tantalyr]

Well said indeed Theolaerynn! I, too, believe that lairs should be more difficult to construct than biped plots for many of the reasons already stated in this thread, but I also believe that the devs went waaaaaaay over the top in setting that difficulty level.

[Frith-Rae]

Actually I want to dispute the "original" reason the OP put in his post....

TG had said repeatedly, when we balked at what was required, that all the biped craft schools were actually going to be overhauled to be more like Dragon Lairshaper - instead of the other way around. They were starting with the revamped Confectioner school to illustrate this "new way" of crafting. They *had* stated that they were going to continue, up on the pony list, doing the same for the rest of the crafting classes as well.

(good or bad, keep reading...)

Now, having said that, they obviously felt at least part of it was too much since they changed tri-cut gem requirements on the patch on blight right now. Unfortunately, that patch is in no condition to go live....so as much as I'd like to do the "new" tri-cut gems, the rest of that patch is bad..m'kay.

(stay with me now, I swear I'm for changes...)

Because there won't be changes to the rest of the crafter classes, across the board; because there probably won't even be the new confectioner revamp released; because as it stands now - yes lairshaping is horribly imblanced compared to what others have to do to build their homes. I too wish for changes.

However, I don't see it ever happening. All these threads wanting things that take a *team* of developers who *KNOW* the code and system to work *months* to get this work done....I don't see why people bother right now. Until the team gets hired and learns the code - *nothing is changing one iota*. So, I'd say look for mmm a year out from now for people to actually start looking at suggestions and changes to the game to *start* being worked on.

[Sharduk]

Did you thougth about that bipeds can easy replace their silos without losing place? Dragon silos go in the depp and wide with every tier, and the ress requirements are simply silly to build a t5 silo, its better you build 5 t1 silos for the storage.

Its not just about silo's.

In my lair i have a Channeller, a Smelter, a Stonecuttter, and a Xtal shaper.

Additionally I have 13 silos, 2 T2 librarys < read storage >, a T2 lair < read storage >, a T2 hall < read storage >, a vault < read storage >, and a connie < read temporary storage >.

Within 2 weeks I'll have a T3 hall < read more storage > and a T4 hall < read lots more storage >.

As i said earlier , i have an average size lair.

Show me an average size plot that even comes close to providing that many structures and that much storage space.

Sharduk

P.S. there is a thread about 3 pages deep in the Draggy forums that has already kicked this horse to death.

[Kwinn]

Actually I want to dispute the "original" reason the OP put in his post....

TG had said repeatedly, when we balked at what was required, that all the biped craft schools were actually going to be overhauled to be more like Dragon Lairshaper - instead of the other way around. They were starting with the revamped Confectioner school to illustrate this "new way" of crafting. They *had* stated that they were going to continue, up on the pony list, doing the same for the rest of the crafting classes as well.

(good or bad, keep reading...)

Now, having said that, they obviously felt at least part of it was too much since they changed tri-cut gem requirements on the patch on blight right now. Unfortunately, that patch is in no condition to go live....so as much as I'd like to do the "new" tri-cut gems, the rest of that patch is bad..m'kay.

(stay with me now, I swear I'm for changes...)

Because there won't be changes to the rest of the crafter classes, across the board; because there probably won't even be the new confectioner revamp released; because as it stands now - yes lairshaping is horribly imblanced compared to what others have to do to build their homes. I too wish for changes.

However, I don't see it ever happening. All these threads wanting things that take a *team* of developers who *KNOW* the code and system to work *months* to get this work done....I don't see why people bother right now. Until the team gets hired and learns the code - *nothing is changing one iota*. So, I'd say look for mmm a year out from now for people to actually start looking at suggestions and changes to the game to *start* being worked on.

Bullseye Firth. You hit the nail square on the head. Until we get a Dev team in place suggestions like this, while valid, are really pointless. It's kinda like living the old adage of wishing in one hand and crapping in the other and waiting to see which fills up first. Without a Dev team we get nothing new or nothing changed. I'm sure EI is efforting this as we continue to suggest, wish and dream but, time is the commodity they need most and the one commodity that is hardest to come by.