To Exploit or Not to Exploit

[CallakDW]

Hehe, and hopefully a Dev should take the trouble to appear as a giant biped with a biiig sword (or as an ancient dragon of double size), face the character of the to-be-banned player and shout on all channels:

"You, sir or madam or undecided now shall go to the server of *S*H*A*M*E* to spend the rest of your miserable life there with those others of your ilk!"

That would be down right awsome!

[Jayne]

ROFL, that would be awesome. Then they can all do exploit themselves

Jayne

[Hoberton]

I would like to state that I am one of those innocent people. A fellow guildie, who has admitted his wrong doings and has quit the game, shared what he had with myself and a couple of others in the guild. No we were not aware of what we were given as being illegal items. I am fairly new to this game and completely new to online gaming. This is my first. Amadan has listened to my appeal and has re-instated my account. The rings in question have been deleted from the game. I am now going to be very wary of anyone wanting to share a weapon, a spell, or whatever with me because I do not know if it is illegal or not. I do find it unacceptable that someone with a dev account can create things that should not be created, hand them out to whomever, and the ones that pay are the ones that get traded the items in good faith. However, I want to apologize for all that the stupid ring has caused even though it was technically not my fault. I hope that those of you who were with us in hunting and reaping the benefits of those hunts in xp, loot, and hoardies (then turning on us and stabbing us in the back) will understand that this was not our fault. I enjoy playing this game as do my family and I wish to continue to enjoy this game.

Is amazing that the ones claiming innocence always try and blame others for their cheating. Claiming ignorance. This is a lame attempt at trying to get accepted again. They knew exactly what they were doing and knew exactly that the items were illegal. Exploitation at it's finest.

[Sigi]

Is amazing that the ones claiming innocence always try and blame others for their cheating. Claiming ignorance. This is a lame attempt at trying to get accepted again. They knew exactly what they were doing and knew exactly that the items were illegal. Exploitation at it's finest.

Isn't it good that there are people like you, knowing exactly what's going on, reading peoples minds, knowing what they know and knowing how to judge. That's indeed amazing.

[Aaelefein]

Is amazing that the ones claiming innocence always try and blame others for their cheating. Claiming ignorance. This is a lame attempt at trying to get accepted again. They knew exactly what they were doing and knew exactly that the items were illegal. Exploitation at it's finest.

Let's see now...I played the first month the game went live, then returned in mid-2005...well after the merge. Best character I had that first month was like a level 20 Warrior and a lvl 22 blacksmith...no where near good enough to go where the interesting loot is/was (now mostly considered pre-merger artificats)

Been back about a year and a half now and there's still many places I've never been and even more things I've never seen or heard of (and many I never can now). So if someone I trusted were to give me a unique item, tell me it was a pre-merger item (like the Blade of Rending I am fortunate enough to own) then am I guilty if I use said item?

Fortunately I was taking a break when most of this happened (or else I might have been gifted with this item) and it all blew up within a week of my return...yet when I saw the item linked...I asked...and I was told it was a pre-merger item (which of course by now every knows...NOT). Several other non-guild members in various group-hunts I participated in never questioned its use either. I've seen far fewer places, done less, and am younger (in-game) that the trusted player. So I never had a reason to question this pre-merger claim...

I have no idea how long you have been around Hoberton, or how much in-game experience you had before the merge. Personally I do not think it matters...you and several others seem to have made up your mind on this matter.

Yes...maybe there was ignorance...but until I see a list of all pre-merger items, hell...all possible in-game items, how am I, or anyone else, new or old...supposed to know if an item is legit?

The perpetrator(s) of this act have been banned, innocent players re-instated (yes, maybe I am biased as those abruptly canned are guild mates, 2 of which are significantly newer to the game than I) and the items removed from the game. Let's let this thing die now and forever...lessons have been learned all around and the future of Istaria still lies ahead...in ALL our hands.

[snickel]

Is amazing that the ones claiming innocence always try and blame others for their cheating. Claiming ignorance. This is a lame attempt at trying to get accepted again. They knew exactly what they were doing and knew exactly that the items were illegal. Exploitation at it's finest.

I think there are three sorts of people who use cheat items:

1) The innocent. Those who are indeed new to the game and don't know any better (yes, there are some people who are innocent)

2) The self-declared cheaters. Those that use the exploit being fully aware that is is an exploit and even looking down upon people who chose not do do so (to the server of S*H*A*M*E with them, may they be banished forever)

3) The self-delusional. Those that suspect that they use an exploit, maybe have discussed this with guild members, but choose to believe that it is alright without checking if it is. Because the newfound item/way of fast levelling is oh so tempting you just wish so hard it was alright. And the people who told you about it or gave it to you are trusted members of the guild, aren't they? The sad thing is that when they are declared to be responsible for using the cheat (due to their own gullibility, greed or weakness) they do not own up, but try to lay the blame elsewhere. I have heard about such people even badmouting other guild members for 'turning them in'. Cheaters hurt the game. They do not deserve any guild loyalty. Their behavior is a blemish on the guild.

[Phillip]

I think this whole deal have been damaging enough to us. Let it go, guys. There's no need to make these folks feel unwelcome. They already apologized more than once.

It's been a bit of work for folks like Kwinn, Hobs and many others and I understand it's not easy to let slide. I don't think it's about the current members of said guild that's the reason for such feelings. The attention is solely on them and I believe because those who should own up the most, but haven't, and probably never will, is why the ora is still dense (the one who made the items, and one who passed them around). Until then only time can heal all this.

On another note, what will happen to the Stunt and Heal Recycle IVs? Are they still in the game?

[Hoberton]

On another note, what will happen to the Stunt and Heal Recycle IVs? Are they still in the game?

As far as I know, Amadan went around deleted all those as well. It was Stun IV and Cleanse IV by the way. Many were upset that they had to delete the spells and for those that asked - Amadan converted the Cleanse IV heal spells to Cleanse III. That way they at least got to keep the spell with the correct tech on it. They did not lose out on the comps they had gathered for the other techs on those spells.

[Phillip]

That's excellent. Thanks Amadan.

[Kwinn]

Although I am prepared to let bygones be bygones and even to let the so called 'innocent' return via the appeal process I can't help but wonder how innocent the 'innocent' truly are. All one has to do is look at the rings in question and one can see that they are head, shoulders and a tall ladder above anything else. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that these things just might not be kosher. The old adgae that if it is too good to be true then it probably is applies here. Nevertheless, as I said bygones are bygones, and if those folks win their appeals I say Welcome Back! Don't do it again!

[Silenos]

My alt belongs to the Banes of the Aegis (Itzcoatl) and over the years, I have read some eye rolling comments from players full of themselves bragging about taking out 6 vexators, a wraith group, and the Dark Lord Sauron without breaking a sweat (I exaggerate slightly). Now, I always thought this was bunk and the old "my dad can beat up your dad" one upmanships. But I have witnessed some uber players do incredible feats. One of are members returned, after a long absence, revealing a alt I never heard of or believed he had.
I witnessed this character take out a ton of elite blights (which have a nasty dot), purple necroflies, and so on. Now, I havn't been on alot lately due to the fact I have a job and need to support myself (been busy lately) when this whole ring affair became huge, but when those rings showed up, I said, "oh ho! so this is how those braggarts do it!" And he happened to give a few rings away (I was not one of them in case some of you wiseacres decide to do a J'Accuse to me)
to some of are members. Now, I admit, I'm not the smartest at this game, but I have always believed that some players contained items to help them out that are no longer in this game. This may not be a fair charaterization of certain players, but I don't know them, never really played with them, so really never seen them in action. But then again, I'll state a long ago incident that lead me to this train of thought.
I'll travel back in time when the arena was new, and a certain dragon was offering to duel anyone that moved, especially a dragon friend of mine. She dueled this dragon and was barely doing any damage to him. I dueled him with Silenos and had the same affect. Now, was this dragon incredible smart? He was a uber. But then again, even less competent boxers land at least a few blows on a tougher boxer. Later on, he revealed a truth, he was using scales that absorbed blows, guess those scales added a few IQ points to his fighting ability. He absolutely refused to remove those scales and duke it out with my dragon friend scaleless (wow, what bravery).
So, please forgive are rush to judgement when we believed those rings were something giving away during the premerger days. I find it entirely believable that some players still use similar items but have not been caught yet, and would cry like babies at a spanking contest if such long ago items where reintroduced or taken away. My apologies to those who have never used such items and felt I insulted them.

[Tantalyr]

Silenos, from the sound of it the dragon you dueled was likely using a triple teched Vengeance chest scale. The Vengeance tech was introduced into the game via an event premerge, and was available to all dragon crafters who could fetch it. Once the event was over, the tech was lost to Istaria. On Order, only one dragon (Leviathan) can make those any longer.

The Vengeance tech was (and is) nasty enough in and of itself--it has a 5% chance of processing when you are hit in melee by an adversary, and when it does it drops your adversary's strength by 80%. As a result, the damage done to you while the effect lasts often drops to 10 or less, even from Tier VI melee beasties. But wait! There's more! The Vengeance tech is the only tech in game that can be applied multiple times to the same item. So a number of dragons (including my own Grymme) have a chest scale teched triply with Vengeance. Melee adversaries are a breeze with it.

The Vengeance tech was thus not an exploit or a surreptiously introduced item. It had been around for years, and certainly most of the elder dragon community was and is aware of it. The One Ring on the other hand . . . .

[awdz]

I think Silenos was just pointing out how it was not so easy to realize that the rings were not similarly from years ago. I'm not aware of any other items having been introduced like the backpacks, rings & techs from this uproar were. Why should they suspect such a thing if it had never been done before? Especially with uber items still in game from years ago.

[Silenos]

I do not know what is and is not a honest item, most items I have were crafted or were found from drops or quests, and if it's ok with the developers, it's alright by me. But what I do have a beef against is when someone puts out a jihad on my guild and starts labeling them cheaters, when they were just duped. Some cretin of a dragon accused Delight that she knew they were illegal all along! That is low. Accusations based on ignorance.
So, have a little understanding from my angle, one who have not reached Mt Olympus or have the developers on my speed dial list. I'm just an ordinary player, as are most of my guildmates that just want what you all want, to be more powerful, and such items are seductive. But. like most seductions, sometimes all you get is a paternity suite after the thrill is gone.

[snickel]

I am with Silenos in this that I think it is unfair to label the guild of the Banes as cheaters because of those rings -- many guilds would have members that were gullible or uninformed enough to accept those trojan gifts. I believe that it was just chance that it was the Banes that were used by the ring-giver to create upheaval.

[Tantalyr]

I did not mean to give the impression that I have anything less than the greatest respect for the Bane of the Aegis and most of its members. All have earned it through the years here in Istaria, and the One Ring incident hasn't tarnished my respect for those I have known for some time, such as Silenos and Aaelefein and others.

I am very happy to see the primary culprit caught and banned from the game (and no, I do not speak of Vesh/Sslay here--I speak of the originator of the Ring). He had in any event been a cancer in game for some time.

[Phillip]

I am very happy to see the primary culprit caught and banned from the game (and no, I do not speak of Vesh/Sslay here--I speak of the originator of the Ring). He had in any event been a cancer in game for some time.

I would love it if they just let the general public know who this is. I don't see why they haven't. Legal issues maybe?

[Jayne]

Well there is such thing as privacy. We dont need to make this a head hunt or prove that we are right, etc. It done.

[Vandellia]

I have been silent on the boards for a long time and I will with reluctance jump into this thread.

1. exploiting damages all players period
how so? simple if you think on it as an example if you have a player that has worked hard on his character for 4 months sees a new player that zips past him in money and levels it can certainly cause a lot of ill will and frustration.
2. I remember the water walking incident, the reason that it became such a horrible exploit is that the people that used that method to get to the island were able to buy choice plots in what was a plot starved game before the intended action to release the plots was finished. It definately caused a lot of fury over it and ill will.
3. An afk macro was defined by AE and by Tulga as being against the TOS so that is simple it was stated quite clearly by them and what happend due to early afk macroers caused us to loos some of the games designed macro abilitis ie they got broken. so there is no defense for willfully using an afk macro it was against the TOS.
4. How many people wrote AE/Tulga about formulas that wer broken due to data base errors things like the wrong scribing requirement? If you know that its an error and you know that using the error for your personal benefit is wrong or at least in my world view extremely morally questionable.

I have been in this game since beta I have seen and heard of many exploits thankfully most after they punished the offenders. I just can not see from a long term player view anything that "justifies" using anysort of "cheat"/exploit/or "grey area" in game but then again my moral compass is different then some people that feel that as long as they reach their goal anything is acceptable.