Petition to EI un-bork group XP

[Jayne]

I like the agro/xp setup as it is today. I feel its more realistic.

The only reason some would want the old setup is because they want xp in the easiest fashion. I was at flies on friday and there was a group with a 100 dragon and many lower level hatchies. They did perfectly fine. I don't think the flies even agro'd the lowest in there party, whom was level 9.

So I dont see any conflict, except that some want to simply sit back and do nothing to get xp.

I agree with Thamoris, because I too was influenced by him a very longtime ago. I went out to the PF and was told I could not group. Thamoris said do the first class to 100 without PLing and you will enjoy the game and learn how to play your character. He asked that I trust him, and give it a try.

So thats what I did. In reality I need to thank Thamoris because if it wasn't for his denial of letting me group (and he was nice about it), I would probably never would have become the Queen of Melee. I went on to learn and hunt the satyr's as a single classed Warrior. The rest is History. And yes I will say I enjoyed the game a heck of a lot more

And is maybe why I am still playing to this day.

Jayne

[Senkeleron Fell]

I also don't mind the group xp the way it is now.

People who level quickly and without effort are the first to leave the game.

People who worked hard on their levels are more likely to stick around.

[Balthizar]

I aprove this post!

Vote Dragon in the next expac

[Sparkinaranthus]

Stuns/roots have a tendency to not land when you are levelling up your first class that gets the spell. When you are grouping, you tend to go after higher level mobs to compensate for the XP penalty, which further reduces your ability to otherwise control aggro. But that issue has been done to death already in other threads. I think that everyone is in agreement that it was damaging to have the aggro revamp without looking at the aggro management at the same time. I wanted this thread to specifically be a discussion of the XP grouping penalty, and how it affects your groups.

To the "They are clueless, so deny them XP" crowd: Players can only be educated if (1) they have the desire to be educated, and (2) if there are people available to teach them. There is nothing that can be done about the former. I will further maintain that the presence of the group XP penalties certainly reduces the odds of them finding the latter, while doing absolutely nothing to educate them.

To the "I solo all the time and I agree with the XP nerf because you can get good XP soloing anyways" crowd: Quote "I encourage anyone that groups or tries to group for adventuring to ring in on this thread and add your two cents." The most polite thing I can say is that you are derailing the thread. This is tantamount to saying, "I don't go to that parade, so it's OK if you rain on that parade."

[Garfonso]

I like the agro/xp setup as it is today. I feel its more realistic.

Hm... I never though somebody could describe an xp setup as "realistic"..

I really like the agro system.
And I'm still against the xp-nerf. There was no real point for it...
Sure you can get XP soloing. If you are soloing all the time, you don't have to care a bit for group xp...

People who PL all day won't stay long.. sure.. but they won't stay a day, if they see PL is impossible... it's just the way they think.
They won't affect the community much... I can't see that.. why should they? They PL a few days and are gone after that.. whup.. community has nothing to do with them..

And yes, I would like to get XP if I hunt with my friend with a rating of 200+... sadly I will get much better XP soloing and much less DP, because I don't die in mass pulls... is that fun?
Personally I find soloing much more boring than grouping... *shrugs*

[Phillip]

If anything, it's the rating system that's borked. People rely on PL by others because they can't get enough XP due to their rating. They are not going about things wrongly, since MC is an integral part of this game. Others however, took advantage of it. Because of all this, the ever changes in XP scaling occured. None have been satisfactory.

The best thing is to add 2 modes to a character via checkbox (in Options), one is Main and other is School. In Main you will not get any XP for anything you kill. In School mode you do. However, in this mode all stats and abilities will not cross over from other schools (only in Main will that be). It's like you're a noob all over again. Now, remove the XP to rating mumbo jumbo, and add XP to current level distribution.

In order to avoid people getting PL, give 99% of the XP to the character that is more than 30 levels higher than anyone else in the group. Grouping will not be hinder but you must find someone within less than 30 levels of you.

That's not perfect by any means, but good to disect i think.

[Leviathan]

The group xp system is fine as it is. As a rating 185 player, I can group with about 5 other players, one of which is rating 192 and still get decent (not outrageous) xp. I can usually get a level or two after a few hours of group hunting. that's plenty.

Where it seems to fall short is in the solo arena. the only way for a person of my rating to get any xp is with trophies, and that is boring. for soloing, they should increase the xp on the Aegis mobs that cast spells. they are something that you cannot mass pull without dying (even in a group), but will allow high rated players to level in a reasonable manner if they substantially increase the xp for them.

[Garfonso]

If anything, it's the rating system that's borked. People rely on PL by others because they can't get enough XP due to their rating. They are not going about things wrongly, since MC is an integral part of this game. Others however, took advantage of it. Because of all this, the ever changes in XP scaling occured. None have been satisfactory.

The best thing is to add 2 modes to a character via checkbox (in Options), one is Main and other is School. In Main you will not get any XP for anything you kill. In School mode you do. However, in this mode all stats and abilities will not cross over from other schools (only in Main will that be). It's like you're a noob all over again. Now, remove the XP to rating mumbo jumbo, and add XP to current level distribution.

In order to avoid people getting PL, give 99% of the XP to the character that is more than 30 levels higher than anyone else in the group. Grouping will not be hinder but you must find someone within less than 30 levels of you.

That's not perfect by any means, but good to disect i think.

I really really like that idea.
That would make multiclassing much more fun...
And you would have the oportunity to really play all the schools you are learning. If you start as lvl 1 mage with rating 89, how will you ever be using any mage skills? They are just to low to hit anything...
If you start als level 1 Mage without any additional skills and rating 1 you will be happy to use all that tiny mage skills and do what a mage does best...

Ok, my position with that idea is not really comform with my position against the current xp system.. *shrugs* But it's just that I really like that idea of phillip (I already said that, right? ).. so forget my old position

It's just my opinion that people should know the schools they are willing to learn... it's the same with craft, where I really appreciate that "new" system (will it ever come?) where you have to use the primary skill (and with that really do what the school is good for) to get XP
You will level up fast anyway, but you have to build something of that new schoolf...
It would be cool if something similar was possible for adventuring.. I think I would much more enjoy it..

[CallakDW]

I believe this isn't the first game that has docked for grouping with ubbers over your head. I've seen others do it with less complaint that I'm aware of. However the games I speak of also have more users, so finding people of appropriate level is not all that difficult with them.

[Senkeleron Fell]

I really really like that idea.
That would make multiclassing much more fun...
And you would have the oportunity to really play all the schools you are learning. If you start as lvl 1 mage with rating 89, how will you ever be using any mage skills? They are just to low to hit anything...
If you start als level 1 Mage without any additional skills and rating 1 you will be happy to use all that tiny mage skills and do what a mage does best...

Ok, my position with that idea is not really comform with my position against the current xp system.. *shrugs* But it's just that I really like that idea of phillip (I already said that, right? ).. so forget my old position

It's just my opinion that people should know the schools they are willing to learn... it's the same with craft, where I really appreciate that "new" system (will it ever come?) where you have to use the primary skill (and with that really do what the school is good for) to get XP
You will level up fast anyway, but you have to build something of that new schoolf...
It would be cool if something similar was possible for adventuring.. I think I would much more enjoy it..

You can already do that if you want. With your Level 1 mage example you can go out and kill low level mobs for their trophies, using your low level spells to get skill in how they work, and the trophies would push you up pretty quick. The only difference is that you are much safer from the mobs than a real level 1 mage would be. But does anyone do that? No, too easy to find the quick route. I guess if they were forced to do it that way, where if you become level 1 you really are level 1 in every way, but I don't think anyone would really want that.

[Garfonso]

I would... but I am far from everybody..

Sure I can go out and kill low level mobs and level through trophies... but that is by far slower than leveling with trophies + the xp you get for the mobs...
The XP makes the bigger part for real low level chars... at least it always made it for my chars..

[Kulamata]

It's not an "either or" issue. The old system could have been modified to prevent abusive power leveling while still maintaining the fun.

It was that emphasis on community and fun that made Hz unique; saying that now it's more like other games is not a major selling point for those that play Hz because it's not one of those other games.

The change to the current system was heavily supported by a relatively few very high level adventurers; this had the unfortunate appearance of their pulling the ladder up behind them.

The system that was put in a bit after release was developed with a group, and statistically analyzed with a specific goal in mind; to promote community grouping. It was the only game system post-launch to receive proper testing and analysis before implementation. The current system did not, and shows it. The current system is just another instance of character building "Grind, Baby, Grind", that mistakes interminable repetition for rewarding achievement.

[Senkeleron Fell]

I would... but I am far from everybody..

Sure I can go out and kill low level mobs and level through trophies... but that is by far slower than leveling with trophies + the xp you get for the mobs...
The XP makes the bigger part for real low level chars... at least it always made it for my chars..

So basically it all boils down to characters wanting to level faster. All the other points are just rationalizations to try to make it look like the current system causes bunches of problems, when it is really the speed of leveling that is the concern.

I went out hunting today, me at 82/86 and my partner at 100/108. Hunted Bloodskulks in the 80-100 range. Got about 2000-4000 exp per kill. We were 20 levels apart, I don't see any problem with how the grouping worked...

[Garfonso]

Sure it's about leveling fast... what should it be about?

Leveling fast in a nice group makes lots of fun... leveling slow in a nice group is still fun but it not so much, because you sometimes get the feeling that you archieve nothing, or not as much as going solo or whatever...

I don't know where exactly the limits are... but as a lvl 10 boy it's impossible to group with level 17 people.. you won't get much xp (as in by far less than soloing mobs lvl 5-8 mobs) and die because you get all the aggro.. I tested it!!
And that is just impossible to do to a game where you can find about 10 people in level ranges from 10-20 (and rating) in prime time...

That should be a main concern here...

For multiclassing and old chars like I am multiclassing would be more fun... but after all it's not that important... If there is a majority that doesn't consider it fun and is against it.. I'll accept.
Personally I liked the old system better.. but that's just my opinion.
(Or maybe a system like phillip suggested, but I won't think that such a system would get any majority... hehe)

But leveling my alt is pure pain... soloing is not funny with all schools, sadly. (not everyone got the love dragons got in the recent past )

[Gremblthrg]

The group xp as is, is painful; when I was on a level 14 alt grouped with a level ~10 rating ~20 player, I made less xp than when solo on lower level mobs, at much greater risk, and died several times because the mobs would target me. On the other hand, he/she got the vast majority of xp due to his/her rating.

On my main, I almost exclusively solo, even had guildie dragons refuse to group with me when fighting mobs in the same area; I was level ~70, rating ~133, they were level/rating ~60. Can't really blame them for it, grouped with me they'd get what, 1k? 2k? xp per kill, and without me they get around 10x as much - both fighting the same tier 5 mobs.

We used to have guild hunts but that just isn't feasible any more, since the lower levels get almost no xp and get targetted constantly. No fun in that whatsoever.

A system where you have to group with people close to your level may work better in other games not only because of the higher population, but also because the level range isn't as wide - no multiclassing, and the highest level is 50 (DAoC) 60 (WoW) or some such, while here ratings can go up to 200+.

Completely reverting the group xp to how it used to be would result in PL abuses, but please at least make grouping xp split a bit more group friendly than it is now - grouping shouldn't be something that is dreaded and avoided, it should be something fun.

[Casyle]

While I'm sure it could be better, I'm fine with the current grouping system.

Now, don't get me wrong, I enjoy grouping! I got my fill of soloing with Casius. *Shivers* Nobody should ever have to go through that... Anyhow...

I don't see the big problem, personally. Every MMORPG I've ever played discouraged power leveling. And you certainly can get good exp grouping! I ran into a soon-to-be-friend at the grass beetles when I was still in my early 20's. I was a mage, he was a cleric about 2 levels below me. We annihilated the spawn and both of us leveled faster together than we ever would have alone! Then we moved on to terrorizing ruxus! *Laughs*

I'm constantly typing /who to see who's online while I play, and all the way up to 78 so far I've always seen players I could group with. I've gotten /tells from players wanting to group. Grouping is still very viable.

I have to agree with the others... You can group with ANYONE you want to. It really sounds like you just want to have your cake and eat it too.

[awdz]

we have tried guild hunts with large differences between levels, but the lower folks get jumped and tons of dp's if we hunt anything that could garner some xp for anyone. i'd love to see a way for high level folks to turn off offensive actions & xp so we could help on lower level hunts without being an xp drain and without mass killing such that the young ones don't have to lift a finger. i do think folks should make their own kills and learn to use their skills to the best of their abilities.

[HAG]

Mainly due to the reason i can't see the point in most arguments

1.) "Grouping is no fun anymore due to the low xp"

Heck - what has one to do with the other? Ask any Ancient Dragon, being lvl 100 for months or even years, stockpiling additional xp onto their only lvl 100. (Faf has close to 90 Billion beyond). Does that mean they all have no fun in playing the game anymore? Some of the funniest grouphunts i enjoyed were with not a single (useful) experience-point gained ...

2.) "Grouping with lowlevel-chars is impossible / too hard."
Well if so, then the veterans have to improve their tactics/playstyle - if you ask me. I also grouped with a guildmate, having 95 levels difference in Rating (he lvl 80, me AR175), and it was hard in the beginning. I had to learn how to pull and keep the aggro of the mobs, so they didn't go after him. Didn't always work - but hey, we laughed about our dead bodies lying side by side.

The only sad thing is that the "nerf" didn't work as intended and stop the PLing. I still see morons (AFK-)cheating at PNFs (PurpleNecroFlie_s), one of them sitting on a plant/building, not being aggroed. There have still ways to be found to stop this ...

My 3c

[IndyMan]

why is PLing so bad ? Once I hit max in a game I have a great time playing and killing and helping others. Heck I played UO for years after I capped out, and still have an account I pay for that is 110 months old. I stop in every couple of months and kill things and help out any low level I pass by.

Just because a person hits max level does not mean they WILL stop playing. Some will, some wont and EII will make money as long as a person plays/pays for an account.

And NO you have not seen my character being PL;d in this game, heck I rarely see but 2 people online and half of them dont talk when I say greetings. Though if someone told my lvl 10 dragon, come with and we will help you gain some levels I would tag along.

[snickel]

why is PLing so bad ? Once I hit max in a game I have a great time playing and killing and helping others. Heck I played UO for years after I capped out, and still have an account I pay for that is 110 months old. I stop in every couple of months and kill things and help out any low level I pass by.

Just because a person hits max level does not mean they WILL stop playing. Some will, some wont and EII will make money as long as a person plays/pays for an account.

And NO you have not seen my character being PL;d in this game, heck I rarely see but 2 people online and half of them dont talk when I say greetings. Though if someone told my lvl 10 dragon, come with and we will help you gain some levels I would tag along.

There is a biiig difference between 'helping others' and powerlevelling.

The most important thing is that the lower level character learns how to fight, how to handle him/herself in a group and solo, which mobs to attack and which ones to avoid at specific levels. In all these things higher level players can help a lot by demonstrating and teaching.

Powerlevelling means that the lower lvl character does not earn his XP, plain and simple.