honesty

[Leviathan]

I have about 20k in bars on my guilds connie too, from leveling Miner. but it is guild only, so I feel better because I trust my guild. It is sad that this happened, especially since not everyone has a guild connie in the area.

I have had this happen to me with Yew boards, when I was leveling fletcher. This was before I realized we had a guild only connie on the plot as well.

It would be nice if items could be tagged for an account so that nobody but your characters could buy them. This way, everyone could open up their connies and the problem would go away.

EDIT: How is it an unfair advantage if everyone can do it?

[Ishar Xhaan]

Sunuke, abusing game mechanics is a grief to ALL players, even if it is not direct like someone killing you , in the end it is ruining other's game. You say they just use the game like the dev did it, OK, but then afk macrokilling, selling items for 20* their price at the blacksmith trainer, flying with cargo disks, all this were not exploits or cheating as that is how the game was done by the devs ???
I would not buy something for 1c at a consigner myself, but neither would i store at consigner or use them to overload my vault. Exploiting, wether in ADV or CRA is the same for me. It is like if a burglar would go down the police house and cry someone robbed him of what he stealed the night before, I won't cry for him, and i will hope that teached him a lesson. If he had not cheated, then he would not have lost his bars.
For i did hunt with you sunuke i know you 're not of the exploiters part so i guess you can understand my point of view. ( BTW we are still 2 ice disciples players on Unity long live the ice power !!! )

[Tcei]

This interseting news, I am what you could call a noobie, If I saw something like this on a public connie (nt, dralk, chionis, ect), and could use it I would totaly snatch up as much as I could. Whats to say the person that put it on sale, did so just because they are leaving, or were just skilling up and wanted to get rid of the products quickly?

[awdz]

the arguement went something like, if they were dumping it they'd have dumped it on a pb instead of connie, and folks should be able to realize that. i did not think that arguement was sufficient to expect everyone to think that way because that is not how i tend to think.

as for whether it is an exploit or not, i do not worry about it because i do not even maximize the expected buffs/techs/etc for my characters (let alone manipulate the system in this way), so i assume others will have better ways of doing things than i do. i've never considered hz a competition between players, which i think is where exploits would matter most.

since i play my character and not the game tweaks, and have no way of telling how folks leveled, i mostly disregard what other folks do for leveling and just accept the company/help offered as it comes to my character at the time. maybe not the best approach for the game overall, but it lets me continue having fun with friends in game - which is what i come to istaria for.

*hangs a green ornament on your ear and scampers off*

[Carinde]

Quite interesting to see the building animosity within this particular topic.

We can all sit here for months on end and argue about the honesty of buying low priced items on a consigner, but it will unfortunately get us nowhere. I am not here to say that stocking items there is right or wrong, because it honestly doesn't matter. What it is; however, is a courtesy to others. That's something that cannot be denied. It is a system that many use, and will continue to do so until that method is invalidated or removed.

Just as people don't like others perching at the necroflies, we spread the word to those who are doing it, so they can hopefully show courtesy to the others in the area.

It would seem that tempers are beginning to flare here and too much digression from the original poster's request. So instead of arguing, why not actually attempt to help this person recover their things? Surely that would be more important than bickering, is it not?

[Peaches]

and I would do just that, however, it would take me a very long time to get skills up to do mith on Chaos. so there is nothing I can do but sympathizel. That is a heck of a loss to deal with.

[Foxfire]

I think its fine if someone wants to be courteous and return the bars.

However.

Those who are accusing those of buying the bars of something wrong are using the game mechanics in the intended fashion. Regardless of whether consigner stuffing is an exploit or not (I think it is), I don't see how they can tell others they must play by their personal rules, when they are in fact insisting on playing the game mechanics in a shady way. You can ask them to be courteous, assuming ignorance perhaps, but I don't think you have the right to demand them back.

You take your chances when you put them up.

[Justa Mirage]

Zachy and Hannibal are respected veteran players and the loss is very sad to think that there are community members that would do it...

However...

Hannibal took that risk... everyone knows wolf's paw is nearest the mithril/platinum mine shaft and use the smelter there. Everyone... even new players to the game that have PL'ed themselves to 60-80th level so they can mine the mithril...

It is an unwritten rule that if it's on a connie at 1cp chances are the player is using the connie for storage (there is nothing wrong with that, you do have <n> number of Items you can post on a connie so there are limits)

Unfortunately Hannibal ran into either a clueless player that thought connies with 1cp mithril bars is OK to buy from, or had the "This will teach him a lesson" attitude and bought them.

Any way you look at it, they are gone, someone has already used them to PL / lairshape / etc with them and they are long gone from the game. The only people that could really tell you who bought them, all have new jobs

[Kulamata]

I agree completely with Carinde. It is a matter of common courtesy. The unwritten rule has been that in such cases, the material is there for transit purposes. And whoever took it very probably realized that they were profiting unfairly by abusing a trust.

As many may have been noticed here, I'm in favor of anything that ameliorates the Hz grind, that ratcheted, and ratcheted. Too often it's high-rated players who are all for grind, creating the unfortunate impression that they got theirs, and want the ladder pulled up now. I'm also uncomfortable with the "blame the victim" attitude...

[Spartikus]

How does someone buying items from a consigner make the seller a "victim"? A consigner is in the game so that players can sell items to other players. If you put a price on those items of 1cp and someone buys those items how is that victimizing someone?

Just because several people do it doesnt make it anymore right. It's an idiotic "rule" that, simply put, is for the simple minded. Whats to stop any player from running around to connies and buying up all your 1cp items and then selling them back on diff chars? Nothing..

Any other MMO game where peopel would do something like this you would be humiliated out of the game for suggesting such a "rule". WoW, EQ, EQ2, Lineage, StarWarsGalaxy...

Enjoy your "community" and your "unwritten rule" all you want but the fact is any one of you can buy these items with an alt and blame a clueless noob. If you want to play with fire don't cry about it when you get burned.

[Elspeth]

2 points to make

1. putting items on an open connie at 1c or whatever price involves a degree of risk, you should be aware of the risk and be preapared to accept the loss of the items should a player who is not aware of, or chooses to ignore, the unwritten rule about 1c items. I do have sympathy for the person who lost the bars as it must have taken a considerable effort to produce them, and if the person who took them was aware of the unwritten rule then they have nothing but my disgust. I consider the risk of loosing items to be high and I will only place items I want to be sold on open connies.

2. Using a connie in such a fashion is a an exploit, yes the vast majority of people (including myeslf) do it, but you are using an item in a fashion it was not intended to be used. Again there is an element of risk involved in doing so. You are exploiting and you may end up with having your account(s) banned. I consider that risk to be low so I continue to use a connie as temporary storage.

Regards
Els

[Aaelefein]

As stated, something I learned early on in the game...1c RESOURCES are typically ALWAYS temporary storage...

• To maximize carrying capacity
• To move resources between players/alts
• To maximize crafting effeciency, and yes...
• To allow resources to dump into the Vault (Wrong/Right, tis not my right to judge)

To see in this thread people I respect(ed) state uneqivocally they wouldn't hesitate to take these items is disheartening indeed.

HOWEVER...

There is a BIG difference between a PUBLIC Consigner (ie, Aughundel, New Trismus, etc) and a PRIVATE, but Publically accessible Consigner. Anyone with half a brain should be able to grasp the concept that something that cheap in a PRIVATE, but Publically accesible Consignment shop is simple not going through the grind just so someone else can make a killing in resources/coin.

NOW...dump a few thousand bars in the Aughundel Consignment shop for 1c (or any other Town's Consignment Shop)...first thing I would do, and would hope anyone else would have the decency to do...is ASK before buying them all. Maybe, just maybe the person mis-clicked, or is maybe trying to move items between alts. A few seconds to ASK isn't going to hurt and just might help you make a new friend. (I know I've accidently dropped a few items in a shop for 1g instead of 1s...much to my chagrin.)

Several plot owners near key resources, and I know of many and even I have one open as well, have graciously BUILT and Opened up a Consignment Shop to the PUBLIC...They are not required to do this good deed, but have done it as a SERVICE to the COMMUNITY...we certainly don't get a portion of the consignment fee (though that would be nice).

Just as these plot owners have made available to the Public a Consignment Shop, they also made available Crafting Shops for PUBLIC USE...

THINK ON THIS...if all these players all of a sudden CLOSED all their Shops and made them PRIVATE ONLY...NOW YOU HAVE SOMETHING TO CRY ABOUT!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note as to Vault Dumping...

Now I don't know how things worked before Novian Resources were implimented, but short of removing Novian Resources from the game...I don't see an easy way around this 'problem'.

There are far more important issues and problems in this game that need addressing than people using consignment shops to alleviate some of the grind in the game.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

[Garfonso]

Ok, let me make a final statement:
I never bought any ressources from any consigner for 1c. I hardly ever buy any ressources from any consigner or pawn broker. If I need ressources, I gather them on my onw.

I really like the Miner and Gatherer schools. I don't know why... Maybe I am a bit odd (personally I am quite sure that I am a bit too odd, but you have to find out for yourselfes.. hehe)

I think I will never buy any ressources for 1c. But I said that I would. Why? Because you can't tell me that I am not allowed to. I don't accept that stupid rule.
I don't really like people putting things in a consigner to transport them, but honestly: I don't care much. I don't have any problems with transporting things and porting with disk or working with recall or something like that. (Only problem is that the client dies faster... but that doesn't matter much too my, when I am crafting).

I wouldn't call anybody victim who lost his/her ressources, because someone bought them for 1c. Nor would I use words like "thief" or "grief" in this context...

I find it quite funny talking about "honesty" of other people, when oneself is abusing the consigner. I wouldn'T call that "honest".

That's my point.
Again: I won't run arround and try to hurt other people. I don't do that. (Most people that know me, should be quite certain of that, at least I hope so). I somehow like ressource gathering from time to time (yes, I am a bit odd, but I can't help it).
If you need ressources and live on unity, maybe you can call me. If that is soooo much grind in your eyes, why don't do something more fun (maybe hunt & make money) and mean while pay something else to do the "hard" work...

[Foxfire]

My post wasn't very clear, so I'll restate my point in a different way. Unwritten rules don't mean jack if the player "breaking" the unwritten rule is using a legitimate mechanic in a way that does not break the EULA. You cannot enforce your private rules on someone who has not agreed to them. You can't force someone to be polite, even, and to expect someone else to be polite or else is...not polite.

It's sort of like when someone tells you they're cheating on their tax returns, and everyone does it and the government is robbing you so its ok. It's too much trouble to do the right thing and turn them in, but you feel... grimey...that they've forced their shady actions on you and tacitly expect you to bless them. When this happens, you just wish the person would get audited.

[Dracana]

I figured I would weigh in on this topic just because so here I go.

Personally I think that with regards to the public consigners it's unfair of anyone to assume that the newer players know the unwritten rules of the gaming community and consigners especially if no one makes it a point to tell them. Not everyone reads these boards or agrees with that rule either. I personally and many people I know online follow this unwritten rule out of courtesy but many also agree that if you put it on a public consigner like in Dralk, Augh or another city like that you are doing so at your own risk. Public consigners are for public selling of items not your own personal storage space. So if you really want to be able to use such a method in safety use a private consigner.

On the other hand I also disagree that using consigners for the transfer of resources could be considered an exploit, at least not one big enough to get your account banned. Standing around invisible and not able to be attacked so you can get experience from someone else yes. Third party program or macro that repeats attacks over and over again so you can level while you're not at the keyboard yes. Third party program or macro that lets you mine and grind craft while your not there yes but putting resources on a consigner to hold them in one place till they drop into your vault or you go get them, no. In fact that would really be a dumb reason to ban a player account.

[Steelclaw]

Did I mention I hate the way this forum software eats posts?
Let me try typing this ... again.

----

Well, at least we're arguing about in-game issues instead of issues with the owners.

The topic of consigner use as storage has come up before in IRC. That was a heated discussion. If I remember, it was bad enough that the devs left the channel early that day. I would not be surprised if it gets that bad here.

My understanding is that if there are resources on a player consigner for a very low price (like 1c), they are not meant for me and I should not buy them. This is even more obvious when there is nothing but resources on that consigner, for the same minimum price. Simple. I leave it. No big deal.

Once in awhile, someone comes along and buys because they don't know any better. It happens. I hope they become aware of this protocol and at least respect it.

What disturbs me are the people who know of the practice, know the resources aren't for them, know someone will be upset, and buy them anyway. This is just as bad as ninja-looting, hogging a spawn, and "training" (dragging a large mob pull to a player so they get overwhelmed). Come on. Just because you have the ability to be a 'griefer' does not mean you are right to exercise that ability.

As for calling this practice an exploit, please stop.

It does not provide an unfair advantage -- everyone can use the con.

It has reasonable limits -- there are con capacity and per-player con limits.

It does not destroy the reward/player-time ratio -- harvesting and transportation are still the major limiting factors. (By reward, I mean in-game rewards like xp, items, hoard, coin)

While what constitutes an exploit is not clearly defined in the context of Horizons (is it defined at all?), I feel that it is fair to say that at least one of those qualities must be violated before applying the "e-word" can even be considered. Note that this does not mean that violating a quality automatically makes something an exploit.

Horizons has seen some very good cases of exploits (and they meet the above criteria too!). I'd love to show their effects (and just their effects) to put things into perspective, but I'm not sure if that would be permitted. (yes? no? *pokes mods*)

The bottom line is:

Don't call a practice an exploit just because you disagree with it.

[Tcei]

Private connies I never mess with (I dont know of any that are open to the public anyways), and if you put things on there then it should be fairly obvious that they're being stored. However, public connies are fair game. If you're gona take the risk, be prepared for the consequences (or however its spelled... meh.).

In Eq, back before they had shared banks you had two options in tranfering money/items between characters on the same account. Find another player, you could more or less trust (i.e. private connie) give them the items and log onto the other char. Or find a hopefully abandoned area, drop your items on the ground (public connie) log onto the other char and hope you made it in before they decayed away, or were picked up by a wanderer.

Either way it was a risk (just like the connies are), and option 2 was always the riskiest. I lost alot of valued items that way. I also found some nice items too. (and lots of junk people just wanted to get rid of)

[Silenos]

Amen Dracana, tried to make that exact same point earlier, and it still might be out there, in the ether.

[IndyMan]

It does not provide an unfair advantage -- everyone can use the con.

Anyone can perch ... is that ok ?

I am just wondering where you draw the line, then next question is how you decide where it is drawn ?

[MadDwarf]

you all do realize that posting stuff on the connie at 1cp each is exploitation of game mechanics right ?

Therefore you take a risk for cheap extra storage capacity above and beyond what you are supposed to have.

Personally I think connies should have stack limits placed on them long ago. Connies are for putting things up for sale for other people to buy. Not to get around the fact that you are to lazy to build another house or more silos.