My Review of Vanguard

[Cobal]

Not even close, mate.

Getting kicked out of groups crossing chunk lines - HZ actually IS a seamless world. Sigil still hasn't managed to do that right.

HZ just uses smaller chunks and calls them sectors, the HZ system only "works" when you dont crank up view distance.
If you do crank up the viewdistance you can see HZ loading it's sectors.
Having to load some sectors causes a 1-3 second hitch in HZ just like chunking in vanguard causes a 1-3 second hitch.
Saying VG is less seamless then HZ because of this is nitpicking and actively looking for something to fault the game.

On top of that, nobody wants to buy crafted gear because it's too expensive to make and, even now, is being nerfed to be worse than looted gear that costs 1/10 as much on the broker.

No, it is not being nerfed. Crafted gear still is better then looted gear.
The only thing changing is that the max item level will now be level 53 and the item will be bind on equip.
A lvl 53 crafted A-quality item is still better then a a lvl 53 dropped piece.

Quests: All VG offers is simple Kill X of Y/FedEx quests. HZ has far too many of those, true, but at least the HZ quest system has the capability of providing complex multistep quests that can have branching paths and multiple endings. The VG quest system is not capable - at all - of providing those. The best it can do is to offer players a choice of what quest to do, which is not even close to being the same.

The VG system is - totally - capable of this.
Diplomacy has several such quests (with choices and varying endings), unfortunatly so far this is the only sphere where I found such quests.
Multistep quests exist in all spheres. For example the unicorn/hellhound quest.

Tails: Animal races in HZ have tails. They don't, won't, and pretty much can't have them in VG.

Yeah, totally stupid to see them without tails -.-
To top it off, in HZ the animal races have teh right sort of legs.
That they can't have tails at all is a rumour started by someone who has zero knowledge about how graphics work.
They can, in fact, be added. It requires the adding of tail geometry and textures, a new bone must be attached to the animation skeleton, all teh animations must be redone and after that the whole lot must be re-exported and re-imported into VanguardED.
It is fecking time consuming but it can be done.
(btw, I am not guessing at this, this is what is actually required for this change in an unreal 2.x engine based game)

What is true is that it is not possible to give the animal races correct legs without completely redoing the character system from the ground up.

In other areas, VG falls well short of HZ.

Agreed, HZ's "potential" is greater then that of VG.
Also, no playable dragons, big negative that :P

The current rumor is that SOE is going to buy VG from Sigil. If true, who knows what the future holds. Personally, I think that would render most of these comparisons moot.

Oh come one, we ALL knew this would happen as soon as it was announced that Sigil left MS and joined forces with SOE :P

[LaughingOtter]

You can string seperate quests together in VG to form a story, but you can't have a single quest with multiple steps & subquests. Even in the various diplomacy quests you refer to, the player is presented with a choice of which quest to do. A branching quest is a single quest that gives the player a chance to choose from multiple endings.

Yes, you can see the terrain sections loading in HZ. However, as of right now, when you cross a chunk line in VG you still lag for several seconds and can lose your party connection, lose the social server, lose your buffs, and wind up pointing the wrong direction, and it happens EVERY TIME you cross a chunk line. It's not nitpicking, it's one of the most common complaints about the game.

While it is mechanically possible to add tails in VG, the reason I said they pretty much can't is that they went with the unibody mesh system because it makes the clothing assets easier to produce. To add tails, they'd have to rework a huge chunk of their clothing assets. That assumes they just whack a tail on the existing bodies; to do it right, as you noted, would require redoing their models and creating all new clothing assets for digitigrade stance.

As for the crafted items nerf - and Silius, the lead dev on the crafting team, does refer to it as a nerf - I'll point you towards Vanguard Crafters and the number of 'discussions' going on there over the effects of these nerfs. Yes, the absolute best, top-of-the line, rarest and most expensive crafted items will still be better then dropped, but I wish you luck finding someone to make that gear.

[Kulamata]

From Brad McQuaid:

“SOE is in discussions with Sigil regarding the future of Vanguard and Sigil Games in Carlsbad. Talks are going well and first and foremost, our primary concern right now is what's best for Vanguard and its community. We want to ensure that this game and its community have a healthy future. The specifics that we work out over the coming days will all be with that single goal in mind.�

What does that mean? It means that right now Vanguard is doing decently but not as well as we hoped...So the bottom line is that SOE is going to be getting more involved with Sigil and Vanguard – our relationship is going to become even tighter – much tighter. At this point I can’t say much more than that.

Does this mean an acquisition? I can’t say at this point.

Does this mean more or less people at Sigil? I can’t say at this point.

Does this mean management changes at Sigil? I can’t say at this point.

I *can* say that regardless of the turn out, SOE knows that Sigil has the experience and vision necessary to run Vanguard and therefore a major change in that area is extremely unlikely and would be foolish on their part.

What it does mean at this point is that both companies agree that we need more of SOE’s involvement if Vanguard is going to continue to get the support it needs to both continue to be worked on and improved and debugged and optimized. When people start getting burned out of the Warcraft expansion (pardon the pun), we need to make sure that the game is more polished and will play on lower end machines. As people continue to level up, it means that we need additional higher level content, including raid content. If we are going to change our marketing message effectively to target those who played a lot of EverQuest but who have ‘grown up’ such that they have jobs, families, etc. that they cannot and will not play another EverQuest even though they enjoyed they game years ago. We’ve done studies and it’s not atypical of an old EQ player, when they hear about Vanguard, to assume that because many of the people involved in Vanguard’s development worked on EQ as well, that Vanguard must simply be an EQ 3. From that point they don’t even give Vanguard another look. They don’t do any more research on the game. They don’t go to the official sites. They don’t go to the affiliate sites. Instead they think to themselves, “ah well, were I younger and had my life not changed, I’d give it a shot, but I just don’t have the time for another EQ with better graphics right now.�

And that’s it – they don’t give Vanguard another thought EQ peaked in late 2001 at almost 500k subscribers. In its lifetime it’s sold over 2 million units. Putting EQ in a vacuum and that’s a lot of people who played and who aren’t playing anymore. And the total number of subscribers didn’t start going down until sometime 2002. I’m also pretty sure up until its peak that the average lifespan of a player was nearing 9-23 months. And as I mentioned in my last lengthy post, this group of people who played but don’t anymore could arguably be put into two sub-groups – those who look back fondly at those months and even years and those who don’t. I have read posts and received emails from people who claim to have played to max level and then quit very angry – the “I just played your game for 2 years and now I hate you� emails. But realistically how big is that group? Even if it was half (boggle) the other group is still pretty big. So ignoring all of the people who have quit or who are growing bored of their current MMOG (WoW, FFXI, DAoC, etc) that need to be reached (and in a very different way, especially the WoW player), both a word of mouth and a formal marketing campaign targeting these people clearly needs to launched. These people need to know that Vanguard does have the ‘EQ feel’ in many ways but that it is much more soloable than EQ was, especially the early EQ days. They need to know that you can play for short periods of time and advance. They need to know that the ‘end game’ is not all about raiding into the wee hours of the night. Some subset of these people will still feel burnt out of MMOGs period, but I think there’s a lot of people who haven’t been reached and our and others research supports that. False assumptions are being made by a lot of people. The reality is that Vanguard *is* the game most of these people are looking for – it has the good they remember, but has eliminated a lot of the tedium and necessary long hours that don’t fit into their lifestyle anymore.

Then there are the people who are growing weary of their current MMOG. Given how much larger the MMOG gamespace has grown since EQ’s zenith in 2001 (arguably 7 times as large worldwide, and at least 2-3 time as large in North America alone), we have to take advantage of this. At some point these people are going to want to start a new MMOG (especially after the WoW expansion newness has worn out, which for most of the non-hard-core would be when you really have to start raiding in the expansion). LoTR Online is an x-factor – reviews from beta testers seem to indicate that the game is more casual like WoW, a small game, and that it looks really good but can run on a lower end system much better than Vanguard (just as WoW can). So at least for a time the more casual bored WoW player may migrate to LoTR Online. How sticky (e.g. how long that game will hold onto players) is unknown, but I think it’s safe to say that a significant percentage of the more casual bored WoW player will head to LoTR – at least first, given the franchise around it. Conservatively this leaves the more hard core WoW player (which in Vanguard or EQ terms would be considered either a hard core or, more likely, a core gamer). That number, even just taking the North American and European gamer is still potentially a large one and needs to be targeted (given Vanguard’s high system specs, the time it will take to localize, and Blizzard’s name recognition and pre-existing proven marketing ability in Asia, I wouldn’t count that group, although a very significant one, until 2008 or so. Targeting that group is for a future discussion).

Lastly, there’s the very real issue of Vanguard’s system specs, even for the core and hard core gamer in North America and Europe. For a variety of reasons and mistakes on our part that I won’t get into right now, Vanguard was released with system spec requirements that were too high for January 2007. Continued optimization will help to a degree, but the game’s big hope here is simply Moore’s Law and that by the second half of 2007, and certainly by the end of the year, the system spec issue will have been greatly diminished. The big problem that remains is that you still pretty much need a new system as opposed to, say, simply a new graphics card. But eventually, gamers do replace their systems. Given what Vista (especially the Ultimate edition) takes to really run, combined with other games that come out by the end of the year that really push technology, many people will be compelled to buy new systems. Unlike EQ, which was one of the first hardware only games, Vanguard needs not only a fast graphics card, but also a system with pci-express, fast memory, a fast FSB, etc. With EQ, you just needed to buy a Voodoo 1 or Voodoo 2 – the rest of your system is fine. With Vanguard, however, just plugging the fastest AGP card into your 2-3 year old system doesn’t cut it. In fact, Vanguard runs pretty well on a 2 GB system with a decent pci-express video card and fast memory in a 2.6 GHz Pentium; conversely, run the game on an older AGP system, the fastest AGP card you can buy, and a 3.2 GHz CPU and you’ll have framerate issues. The game is simply not CPU bound, nor just graphics card bound, but rather mostly bound by the data that it needs to constantly move from the CPU to main memory to the graphics card, and then all the way back again. It’s all about the various bus speeds and caches – moving data around efficiently is arguably more important than processing that data on the CPU or GPU. The only fix here, again, is time. Vista (especially the Ultimate edition, which is what’s being pushed to gamers) wants fast components. Direct X 10 hardware and software will help a lot, especially when there is a DX10 version of Vanguard. A native 64bit client of Vanguard will eventually help a lot too. Bottom line: by the end of 2007, a lot more people should have upgraded, especially if Microsoft succeeds with Vista and native DX 10 games. And if they really push Gaming for Windows like they did, say, the Xbox 360, the end of 2007 and beginning of 2008 should be a very different landscape for PC games in general and Vanguard specifically. Was the Vanguard tech ahead of its time? Yes, and there has been a price to pay for that short term. But MMOGs ideally never end and if you’ve architected your engine to both push the limits of existing and near future technology as well as easily employ future technologies, then you have a game that doesn’t look dated one, two, even three plus years down the road. And that’s what we did with Vanguard – so we feel some pain now, but if we can keep the momentum going, this decision pays off in the long run (big time).

In summary, there are arguably a lot of people who by mid to end of this year in the MMOG gamespace for whom Vanguard could potentially be very attractive. What the game needs is a re-launch of sorts, including targeted marketing campaigns, an all-around successful move by gamers to the next generation of hardware, continued good word of mouth ‘viral’ marketing by those who are already playing, enjoying, and re-subscribing. And all of this could and should ramp up by the end of the year, all the while the Vanguard team is putting in more content, the live team filling out high level content as well as adding to areas of the game’s vast seamless world which are a bit empty. Then a re-launch towards the end of the year that includes the first expansion, one that would add RTS style city building, ship to ship combat, jousting, and a second ‘half’ of the Kojanese Archipelago that makes ship travel meaningful – and by meaningful I mean not tedious, rewarding exploration, with lots of new areas (both in the existing world and in the extension of the archipelago). And I’m talking about some re-use of existing art, combined with new art that fits into the existing continents, and then finally some all out new stuff – different styles of terrain (islands) and ocean to look at while making your journey to found a new player city while constantly being attacked by exotic sea creatures, leviathans, and other traditional members of fantasy and crypto-zoology. Not to mention pirates with canons, or other players and their ships on the PvP servers. And who knows, could be first expansion or second, but eventually you need to pull from Mesoamerican mythology, encounter empires based on Greco-roman architecture... it goes on and on, it’s all planned out, and Vanguard can do all of it given sufficient time. The tools have matured, both in terms of art and design, and the art process orders of magnitude more efficient because of years of Maya scripting, an in-house terrain generator that creates what you want as opposed to spitting out algorithmically generated hills and valleys, and an art team that has this process down pat – for example, they were able to re-create Tursh and Leth Nurae in a fraction of time it took them to create the original, smaller, and much less interesting ‘versions’.

“SOE is in discussions with Sigil regarding the future of Vanguard and Sigil Games in Carlsbad. Talks are going well and first and foremost, our primary concern right now is what's best for Vanguard and its community. We want to ensure that this game and its community have a healthy future. The specifics that we work out over the coming days will all be with that single goal in mind.�

So what does that mean again? Again, I apologize for not being able to go into details and it’s the details that need to be worked out. But I think it’s safe to say that both Sigil and SOE see the potential of a mind blowing game by the end of the year. What’s needed, bottom line, is some time, and how to get that time is what’s being worked out. And so I still see a 500k+ game, I was just off by a year for a variety of reasons, some under my control, many not. And I think SOE sees this as well. To pull it off however, requires a funded and supported Sigil and a well marketed Vanguard with these different target audiences identified and solid plan on how to reach them all, and then a solid execution of said plan, hitting them hard, pushing these ‘WoW everywhere’ point of purchase materials from the front to the very back.. In the meantime, the Vanguard that was launched in early 2007 continues to move forward, with much of what I’ve talked about patched in over time, and the rest in the first expansion (or re-launch, or whatever we all agree upon in terms of product and service placement). Bottom line, Vanguard continues to march forward, a solid and fun game today, and an even better one tomorrow. More ‘state of the game’ posts by me, a regularly updated ‘In the Works’ . And whatever kind of increased partnership between Sigil and SOE is necessary to make this vision a reality. And again, as for what that means exactly, more on that later ™.
__________________
Brad McQuaid
CEO, Sigil Games Online, Inc.
Exec. Producer, Vanguard: Saga of Heroes.

I would take exception to LotRO being characterized as a small game. It ain't. Not as much acreage as VG, but more content, more dense. Big enough for significant travel times, although horses do help. And when running, the scenery is interesting.

[Thamoris]

heh...dejavou anyone?
Cept in Horizons Atari dumped Artifact...still though..I was really thinking Vanguard would pick up steam faster than it has. It has really...cept our spoiled gaming communities are simply so unforgiving. The plug and play generation is beginning to take over the mmorpg world. Expect a slew of WoW clones over the next few years because it appears that mmorpg community in general simply can not handle a game that takes some dedication and is a bit rough around the edges. World of Warcraft is the Walmart of mmorpg's and it looks like Lotro is going to be the Target of mmorpg's.
I hope SoE lets Sigil still call the shots..unlikely though...I hope SoE at least has learned for it's past mistakes.
One bit of good news to think about though...look at SWG. They did not give up on that game ..even when they lost over half thier subscriptions. It does not seem to me that SoE gives up on a game easily and they have some mighty deep pockets to buy their way through trouble.
only time will tell...
Vanguard still sucks less than the rest for me however. It will be interesting to see how SoE handles VG over the next 6 months or so.

[Daedalus]

it appears that mmorpg community in general simply can not handle a game that takes some dedication

Wrong.

and is a bit rough around the edges.

Right.

Thamoris the problem with Vanguard is not the gameplay. Many of us enjoy it. The problem is the "rough around the edges" bit. Vanguard isn't just rough around the edges, it's a frickin' mess of code. It has been cobbled together and barely works and that is where the problem lies.

Gamers want a game with good gameplay such as that which Vanguard offers. Gamers are now at the point where they (we) are unwilling to tolerate abysmal performance and a steady stream of bugs that interfere with the enjoyment of the gameplay itself.

Vanguard would have much higher subscriber figures by now if the developers were either a) competent in each of their chosen specialities, or b) were willing to make a compromise between beauty and a reliable codebase.

Considering how many good aspects of Horizons have been 'stolen' by Vanguard, it is surprising that they didn't learn the biggest lesson that Horizons told: Poor client performance == lower subscriber counts. This is due to the fact that many people are unable to play the game. Only a select minority are in a position to have the latest and greatest hardware, most of us have to make do with a computer that will last us about 5 years or so because costs are prohibitive once mortgage, utility bills, family, food, etc are all paid for.

[Kulamata]

I didn't find the gameplay fun either.

A better example of SOE's probable path might be EQII; its reputation has risen greatly in the last year or so. Between EQII and SWG, SOE has had a lot of opportunity to learn...

[Thamoris]

Wrong.



Right.

Thamoris the problem with Vanguard is not the gameplay. Many of us enjoy it. The problem is the "rough around the edges" bit. Vanguard isn't just rough around the edges, it's a frickin' mess of code. It has been cobbled together and barely works and that is where the problem lies.

Gamers want a game with good gameplay such as that which Vanguard offers. Gamers are now at the point where they (we) are unwilling to tolerate abysmal performance and a steady stream of bugs that interfere with the enjoyment of the gameplay itself.


Vanguard would have much higher subscriber figures by now if the developers were either a) competent in each of their chosen specialities, or b) were willing to make a compromise between beauty and a reliable codebase.


Considering how many good aspects of Horizons have been 'stolen' by Vanguard, it is surprising that they didn't learn the biggest lesson that Horizons told: Poor client performance == lower subscriber counts. This is due to the fact that many people are unable to play the game. Only a select minority are in a position to have the latest and greatest hardware, most of us have to make do with a computer that will last us about 5 years or so because costs are prohibitive once mortgage, utility bills, family, food, etc are all paid for.

I don't think you are very familiar with Vanguard. Having the latest and greatest does NOT mean you will have the best gaming experience. Vanguard is having issues with the Nvid 8800 for example. People actualy get better performance of 7 series cards because the game was not optimized for the latest cards at launch...a big reason for the exaggerated outcry people have been reading about. Those people with the top of the line machines were pissed because they didn't get to max out performance in Vanguard while people with year old machines were playing maxed out with little issue. Their egos got hurt...that's all.

I just find it amusing that I find critisizim about Vanguard's performance in the Horizons forums. Horizons being a game that is STILL full of bugs and memory leaks...unless PME has fixed them since January...haha...seriously..

Nothing from Horizons has been "stolen". Good grief. I suppose Toyota " stole " the idea of putting tires on their cars from Ford. Did EQ steal the idea of a mmorpg from UO ? Did Sony steal the idea of putting a speaker in thier tv's from RCA ?There are some Horizons elements in Vanguard . To you ...it's stolen...to me....its immitated. Immitation is the greatest form of flatery. Good for Sigil ! They know a good idea when they see it! ...and have still managed to add a few of their own too !

Who are these " most of us " anyways. I am one of these " most of us " too ya know. If you are going to flame my post...try to be more specific. You are just guessing and generalizing. Isn't the truth that ...you can't speak for anyone else but yourself. I come to you live...as an active player from Vanguard...and long time vetern of Horizons...telling you..right now that I find Vanguard to be a good game..already greatly improved from launch and gaining momentum.

Owning the same cpu for 5 years is too long. People with 3-5 year old cpus are going to have trouble with most games being released today..assuming it was a top of the line rig when one bought it. If it wasn't ..well..then it's an even worse scenario. That has been the life of this cpu gamer anyways..based on 12+ years of messing with these buggers gaming. I upgrade with a mid level rig every 2-3 years. I'm a regular guy with a regular job...3 kids..house..dog..whole nine yards. Lower middle class or upper poor..depending on who you ask. If one can save $10 a week...then they can buy a nice..new rig every 2-3 years easy.

Speaking for myself...I have not had near the issues with Vangaurd that I had with Horizons at launch...even to this day. I am a patient person that basically " marries " his mmo. I played Horizons for so long because I saw the awesome potential and wanted to be a part of it. It was not meant to be I guess. I am now playing Vanguard for the same reasons. We'll see what the future holds

[Daedalus]

You've shown your colours Thamoris. Please do yourself a favour and don't become blinded by the spin. I have enjoyed playing Vanguard for 5 months now having started in early December last year so I figure I'm as qualified as most to express an opinion on it. You seem to be willing to make out that Vanguard's performance issues are for a select minority when the reality is that it is an exceptional majority who are facing very real, very frustrating problems.

Go read Brad's post on the Sony forums. Then go read Fozzik's post on the official beta forums from a bit under 2 years ago. Pay close attention to the assumptions that the developers at Sigil made then, hoping that Moore's Law would solve all their problems. Moore's Law has continued to ring true but alas it hasn't solved all their problems.

If Vanguard is to gain a fraction of the players that other MMOs have then Vanguard has to make the game accessible to the majority of players. That means whoever is in charge has to stop telling people to buy a new computer when the issue of performance is raised. That means that the vanbois have to stop telling people to buy a new computer when the issue of performance is raised. Vanguard needs to run on the majority of computers, not the minority.

[Aria]

You've shown your colours Thamoris. Please do yourself a favour and don't become blinded by the spin. I have enjoyed playing Vanguard for 5 months now having started in early December last year so I figure I'm as qualified as most to express an opinion on it. You seem to be willing to make out that Vanguard's performance issues are for a select minority when the reality is that it is an exceptional majority who are facing very real, very frustrating problems.

Go read Brad's post on the Sony forums. Then go read Fozzik's post on the official beta forums from a bit under 2 years ago. Pay close attention to the assumptions that the developers at Sigil made then, hoping that Moore's Law would solve all their problems. Moore's Law has continued to ring true but alas it hasn't solved all their problems.

If Vanguard is to gain a fraction of the players that other MMOs have then Vanguard has to make the game accessible to the majority of players. That means whoever is in charge has to stop telling people to buy a new computer when the issue of performance is raised. That means that the vanbois have to stop telling people to buy a new computer when the issue of performance is raised. Vanguard needs to run on the majority of computers, not the minority.

That is the exact response I was given on the forums when, after barely making it out of character creation, I was dropped in noob area unable to move. Apparently this and that on my computer was, in one posters opinion, in dire need of replacement. Boo says me, HZ and LOTRO run just darn fine, I hardly even skip. Not only does my computer meet the requirements on Vanguard's box, it for the most part surpassed them. Fuggin Liars. I realized I'd been roped into dropping 50 bucks on a game that I had about a snowball's chance in hell of running. I uninstalled the lag monster and haven't logged back since.

Thamoris, I remeber you wrote that the game wasn't running great for you either, until you went and spent money on upgrades. I'm glad you were in a position to do so, and have found a game you enjoy. But don't be surprised that sub numbers are down because others aren't going to front the cost of a box + monthly sub + upgrades for something they'd like to just try out. Pfft.

[Cobal]

However, as of right now, when you cross a chunk line in VG you still lag for several seconds and can lose your party connection, lose the social server, lose your buffs, and wind up pointing the wrong direction, and it happens EVERY TIME you cross a chunk line.

Serious?
I just have the 1-3 second hitching, so for me it feels no different then HZ's "streaming" world.

Just to nag on the tail bit one more time...
They can simply re-export the existing unibody model with on polygon on its ****** flagged as connector for assets.
Simply make a tail asset, much like clothing :P
Oblivion handles tails this way, they are just another "armor" piece ^^

[Takora Drakan]

Just to nag on the tail bit one more time...
They can simply re-export the existing unibody model with on polygon on its ****** flagged as connector for assets.
Simply make a tail asset, much like clothing :P
Oblivion handles tails this way, they are just another "armor" piece ^^

Tails for All!

Na Serious, there are mobs ingame that have actually a animated tail, the lizardmen, simply cut teir tail off and model it up with furry textures and put it on the kitties, foxes and wolfes :P (I mean when hz was able to do it i think sigil would be also )

At least my pet dragon has a tail weeee ;P

[Frith-Rae]

don't gripe about "The future of WoW Clones" when you're happily enjoying playing one that fits that description as well...

And let's not remember WoW is a clone as well - just tweaked better than the previous games.

The game was unfun for me, I do not play according to Brad's "Vision" its simple as that.

But what was the biggest problem I had was with the general community in beta WoW bashing 24/7 even while playing a game that was about 90% the exact same gameplay as WoW. Don't be that fanboi....

And there are non-WoW clones on the "Horizon", but they are content to be a small niche game, develop and advertise as such, and hope for the best - which if Brad had setout to be content with that in the first place as he should have been - perhaps SOE wouldn't be having to buy it out (or look into buying it out).

[Thamoris]

don't gripe about "The future of WoW Clones" when you're happily enjoying playing one that fits that description as well...

And let's not remember WoW is a clone as well - just tweaked better than the previous games.

The game was unfun for me, I do not play according to Brad's "Vision" its simple as that.

But what was the biggest problem I had was with the general community in beta WoW bashing 24/7 even while playing a game that was about 90% the exact same gameplay as WoW. Don't be that fanboi....

And there are non-WoW clones on the "Horizon", but they are content to be a small niche game, develop and advertise as such, and hope for the best - which if Brad had setout to be content with that in the first place as he should have been - perhaps SOE wouldn't be having to buy it out (or look into buying it out).

Vanguard is not a WoW clone. They did take some things ..the good things from WoW..Eq...even seemed to use some ideas from Horizons.
Does WoW have land ownership?
Does WoW have flying mounts? you can own and use and fly anywhere?
Does WoW have a separate harvesting skill tree?
Can one build ,own and sail their own custom made boat and ship in WoW?
Does WoW have diplomacy play ?
Is WoW so big it takes 2 hours to cross just one of the landmasses?
Does WoW have finishing, bridge, and defensive specials in combat?
Can one see each leaf on a tree over 5 km away ..moving ...correctly reflecting sunlight depending on the time of the day ?

We have a guildhouse and guild boat now in Vanguard...would we be able to have that in WoW?
There is no comparison between the two..cept the UI. The UI is very WoW like as are the first 10 lvs.
The first 1-10 levels play very much like WoW but after that...it tends to lean more towards EQ type game play without the group dependance.

If there is anything that is a WoW clone...Lotro is a dead on WoW clone..

I'm amazed at all the Vanguard experts around the boards these days. A vast majority of seem certain they have the game figured out and written it off. A vast majority of these experts and self appointed consumer watchdogs haven't played Vanguard in weeks and often months. Do I need to link the pages and pages of updates done in the past month?

I'm not caught up in the " spin ". As a grown man..I can see " spin " a mile away and accept it for what it is. All companies put spin on everything. It has been my impression that Brad has been brutely honest about Vanguard. The people behind Vanguard have promised to do everything they can to make . I think this has been his mistake. The public can not handle honesty. Vanguard has a staff of OVER 100 people working on fixes and content everyday. Alot has been done...alot more will be done.

fyi ...the term " fanboi " and " Vanboi" is WAY overused and has lost it's impact. Only the kiddies use those terms now...I think they were silly names to begin with. Of course I am a fanboi..or vanboi..or whatever. I'm playing the game ! If i wasn't a fan...I wouldn't be playing...now would I?

With that said...gaming in the end is a personal thing. Everyone likes and expects something different from a mmorpg. If one doesn't like Vanguard...then don't play it. Don't rule it out either though..mmorpg's do evolve and change.

All I know is...I'm playing Vanguard..I'm having fun..it reminds me alot of Horizons in it's free form..sand box style gameplay. Hopefully VG will have a bonifide free trial going here soon ...and I think they will....so folks can come see how improved it is.

All of here love the game of Horizons. So we all have something in common. Their is a fair chance that we have many of the same expectations from a mmorpg too. Vanguard has fulfilled it's role as my new " main " game. I am very sad Horizons never hit full stride. I suspect it will be a very long time before a game captures me like Horizons did...but ..for now....to me...Vanguard sucks less than the rest.

Here is what I predict is in the future for Vanguard..
There are around 50-100k in subscriptions right now depending on who you ask. I suspect a few more updates and then a two week free trial will be offered around some heavy publicity this summer...maybe fall at the latest. With the free trial and continued improvement of game...subs will climb to a more solid 100k-150k range by the end of summer. I expect an expansion with major fixes, additions and new landmasses to launch in time for the xmas season..late November probably. This will be combined with another round of heavy promotions. I think that expansion will be the one to propell VG the subs it needs to really start being considered successful...I'm predicting 200k-300k in subs by January next year. I predict subs will reach the 500k mark by the end of the second year....from there...who knows...depends on what they do with the 2nd expansion. By then...most people will have better machines and the code in Vanguard will be much better optimized. The combination of the two..plus added content along the way will make for a gaming experience that none have every seen before. People will be signing up left and right to play.

Only time will tell...bottom line though..play what is fun for YOU! Let others play what is fun for THEM ! and do not try to bring them down..just because one doesn't like a particular game..doesn't mean they need to " educate " them about spin and whatnot. Just let that person enjoy the game. Let them tell others that they enjoy the game. Final thoughts...If ya not currently playing Vanguard then your opinion is mute. The game is changing dramaticaly weekly. Month old information is useless and decieving. If someone not playing Vanguard still wants to slam the game..provide some links or solid facts or at least....a few examples.

[Daedalus]

I play Vanguard for an hour almost every day. I'm having fun though as I've said I despise the performance issues that affect many of the potential new players that are being kept away for that very reason. I'm a regular player by definition.

Unfortunately I can't go fishing in Vanguard

As for Brad being "brutally honest", uhm seamless world, 3rd generation gameplay? Seamless, not quite! 3rd generation gameplay is now touted as 3rd generation graphics if you listen to Brad. Of course he's going to stretch the truth with his definitions, it's his vision!

Also want to say Vanguard does not have over 100 people working on it. Re-read Brad's statements on that, he says Vanguard has had over 100 people who have worked on it in the last 5 years. He didn't say he had a team of 100 people on it now.

[AA0]

Wow, that is some classic Vanboi speak. 500k subs.. haha

[Thamoris]

First Vanguard Newsletter

[Thamoris]

and further more...

Let' just agree to disagree then.
I'm playing Vanguard and having fun...I encourage others to play it too..why? because I like the game. ok? can ya handle that?
aright then..moving on

[Seenu]

Thamoris is a tard.

Well its about that simple.

People post THEIR experiences and this idiot decides that what they experienced didnt happen and than attacks the people's intelligence or character as if he knows better what THEIR experiences were.

I said that I left Vanguard because its too buggy, and this flipping tard tells me its NOT.... well I tell ya what Thamoris, come and TRY to play the game on my PC. After a few minites the UI gets messed up and the game becomes unplayable. I had the problem through two patches and they couldnt fix it, even a reinstall did not fix.

Is a status of UNPLAYABLE good enough for you to qualify as a bug you tard?

Well one good thing about tards, they advertise their mental status within a few minutes on a web forum.

[Joaqim]

Thamoris is a tard.

Lol, fetches some chips and beer and watches the flaming continue :b


About the bugs in vanguard, yes they are there, but there is really not much I am not used after playing Horizions several years till dead of Unity. The machine you need to run, well I got even better FPS/stuttering which I had which I had when starting Hz - right, it's not the same machine, but for the current days it's a pretty medium lvl machine as the old machine been for the days back then, both times maybe just the RAM been a bit above avarage. Well just my experience.....

[Thamoris]

Thamoris is a tard.

Well its about that simple.

People post THEIR experiences and this idiot decides that what they experienced didnt happen and than attacks the people's intelligence or character as if he knows better what THEIR experiences were.

I said that I left Vanguard because its too buggy, and this flipping tard tells me its NOT.... well I tell ya what Thamoris, come and TRY to play the game on my PC. After a few minites the UI gets messed up and the game becomes unplayable. I had the problem through two patches and they couldnt fix it, even a reinstall did not fix.

Is a status of UNPLAYABLE good enough for you to qualify as a bug you tard?

Well one good thing about tards, they advertise their mental status within a few minutes on a web forum.

soo...It has come down to name calling I see. Where...exactly have I dogged on someone because they have a POS rig?

My own rig is over 2 years old. Old rigs don't play new games well...it's just the fact of life...get used to it.
In fact...please DO NOT play Vanguard..seriously. Stay away..go fester in a different mmo...good grief.
Go play with Lotro or WoW or yourself..I really don't care.