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Thread: HZ Community Poll Comments Digest #2: Vexed Voices

  1. #1

    Default HZ Community Poll Comments Digest #2: Vexed Voices

    Below are the comments I have received as of Mar 12, 2007 00:40 PDT which were not included in the first digest.

    Once again, I've tried to remove as much identifying information as possible. It's not about who said it, it's about what they said.

    Activity has trailed off in the past few days as expected. The last digest is on track for next Sunday.

    I have received a few pretty insightful comments with no permission to post. I have enjoyed reading them and wish they could be shared here -- but I need permission. Don't forget to give it if you want it posted in the last digest!

    How? Submit another response. Keep in mind that I need to be able to tie the two comments together. As for concerns about duplicate submissions, I'll only count the last one I received for tally purposes.


    Example comment:
    "The sky is blue and I like puppies!"

    Bad followup:
    "I give you permission to post my previous comment in the community forum"
    (I don't know which comment you are referring to!)

    Good followup:
    "I give you permission to post my previous comment in the community forum. It is the one that mentioned that I like puppies"
    (assuming that yours is the only response that mentions puppies)


    That said, once again...

    The comments below are not mine. I have been given permission to post them by their respective authors. Aside from attempting to remove profanity and identifying information, I have made no further attempt to edit them or alter their meaning. My changes are indicated in square brackets.


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    Still love HZ. Wish PME would talk to us and actually work on the game. Maybe they are working on it..but we'd never know. Thinking about LOTRO, if PME doesn't start doing something by the anniversary of the buyout. Been here since Beta III (August 2003)
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    I have played since launch. After the merge I found myself promoted to leader of my guild. TG had me rather frustrated as I saw them taking the game in a direction I didn't like. They continued to make things harder for crafters who had loved the game so much. With the sale I had hoped for new content and events which would bring people back. The terible job of comunication from EI/PME has left me trying to explain to guildmates what was going on and and deparatly encouraging them to continue playing. I'm now working six 12 hr days a week so don't get to play much. Certainly I don't have time to start over in a new game. As time passes it looks more like we shall never see any new work done on Horizons. Makes one wonder why they ever bought the game.

    This is [removed] / [removed] from Chaos and you have permision to use my comments. Also you may contact me: [removed]
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    I just canceled my account today, as did my mate. We love Horizons but nearly everyone we know is gone, and the community is what made it so great. We are also at the point where we can't do anything because of the DB problems. If we try to level our crafting, resource windows/vault contents/etc either take 30 minutes to load or don't load up at all. If we try to go hunting and level or level our adventure rating, the quests don't load properly or the mobs don't pop, or the loot windows won't come up. Sometimes it works... most of the time there is an issue. It's frustrating, and we stuck it out as long as we could, but we can't afford the $13/month each for a game we can't play or enjoy. I sincerely hope things get better, and I know that the more people that cancel, the less funds they have to work with to improve the game, but after 6 months of hope and paying into what I hoped would be improvements (or at LEAST stability!!) we can't afford it anymore. I'll be watching, and hoping though. We'll be back if things improve.

    (sorry for the double post- I just wanted to let you know you have permission
    to share this comment as you see fit!)
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    I have no desire to continue participating in game or in the forums... the game is stagnant, and the forums have degenerated into a cesspool. On both counts, I have better things to do with my time.

    That said, as my account remains active despite being cancelled, I do drop by to say hello to my remaining guildmates from time to time. Nothing I've seen during these short visits has made a longer stay seem more appealing.

    I still have concerns about the security practices of the current operators of Horizons: the SOAP vulnerability from last year would still appear to be unfixed, the gallery software on the community site is outdated and vulnerable, and I have no reason to believe that the other publicly-accessible pieces of software have been updated.
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    (I give you permission to post the following comments on the forum)


    I've been playing Horizons for several years now. I remember when I first picked up the game, saw you could play as a dragon, and I knew right then and there it was for me. Horizons has such a great community, but one thing is missing these days - communication from the devs.

    I fear saying any opinions toward IE/PME on the community forums directly since it would most likely than not be deleted, so I will do so here:

    Ever since they purchased this game, everything has gone downhill. At first, they would communicate to us and promise us new updates, but now those promises have been broken. These people are nothing more than criminals in my opinion, first starting with insecure billing issues, then promising us so many things, and then finally, ignoring us altogether and going back to updating their other game, Savage Eden. Why did they purchase Horions then? Money. That, and they thought this game would be just as simple as Savage Eden, but they were wrong. Eventually they just gave up, and are getting payed anyway.

    Those of us who are still sticking around because of friends and set goals are left in the dark and denied even a simple 'hello'. We cannot post anything negative about PME, or it will get deleted, which is pointless considering that we all know by now that the game is dying and that the company seemingly couldn't care less. I hope someday that Horizons will be sold to a more responsible company and that PME will get the punishment that they deserve, but that is only wishful thinking.

    What more is there to say?

    - [removed]
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    I first played horizons at the free beta. Liked what I saw sure there was bugs & performance issues but I thought this will be a great game. So I bought the game on release. (Preordered from a webreseller)

    First I should point out I am a European and hence played via Game Network.

    Created my account on day 1 and played on the shard ICE.

    I was very happy with the game (no game is perfect).

    However I cancelled my subscription shortly after Game Network were FORCED to merge the 3 European servers into Unity. This had to be done as AE had gone bankrupt and Tulga had merged the USA shards and GN had to eventually follow suit as Tulga had changed the World (striped Tiers) and GN would not be able to continue updates/events until Unity matched the new USA shards (order,chaos and Blight)

    I would like it noted that Tulga also did little or nothing to assist GN after AE went under.

    I have played many MMO's before and after Horizons but it just goes to show how much I really did like this particular game that I have continued to keep tabs on it for 3 years after I last played.

    There was a short period when myself and several former guildmates were going to return when EI took over as we thought this might be a fresh start.... Oh how that has proved wrong.

    Anway I fill in this Form as a mark of respect for the current player who still hang in hope. I do know why they do, They love the game.

    What has to be said that it is everything that surrounds the game is wrong from billing, lack of communication, and joke of a forum to the worst mismanagment I have ever seen or thought possible and not the game its self. Which sadly I would now suggest is now broken beyond repair.

    I will close by saying I know it hurts to loose or give up something you have loved for many years but the only thing left to do now is for a GAME OVER screen be put up as soon as possible.
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    you have the permission to post my comment:

    - I do not post im the forum anymore because of censoring, banning and deleting (look at my posts concerning that issue)
    I try to visit the forum max 1X per week- but thats hard- I miss you all

    -I have given up all hope that I will meet my friends on Unitas again-my beloved dragon is lost:-(((
    I shall try LotRo-lookin`out for Istarians...

    greetings

    [removed]
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    IMHO Steelclaw, this game is not long for the world. I am trying to set up sub account, cannot, so when you CANNOT even give a business NEW money, it isn't long before they pull the plug. again, just MHO.
    [removed]
    ps. I give you perms to post this.
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    What is the state of your forum account?
    Got a account @ Unity as, the website is still online the game servers are death, and PME didnt put Unitas ([removed] name) Online.


    Please describe your current level of game activity.
    I'm playing since beta, I'm or better said I should be playing at Unity. I quited due the servers went bye bye.
    Especially since the [removed] up (sorry) that EI and PME own horizons now, best time was when we had Tulga Games, some one that cared about the game (David Bowman and all the other devs)
    I will not return until the game gets stable again, good devs, support, and information!!!

    Steelclaw: U can do Anything whit this data what u want nothing is secret coz about all know it
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    [removed] [removed] says hello, and is keeping his fingers crossed for some kind of life to be breathed back into the world of HZ and it's community of players. a breath of life that he feels utterly confident that Pixel Magic is unable to provide whatsoever.

    i hereby fully grant you permission to post this message in the forums, either in it's entirety, or in any manner.
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    I'd have to see the ownership actually care about the game. I'd need to see secure billing. I'd have to be able to reactivate my current account so that I didn't lose access to my existing characters. I'd need all of these things before I'd come back.
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  2. #2

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    All those comments are so sad, but so true. EI/PME couldn't care less about us. I'm not sure why they bothered to buy the game really. *sighs* I was one of the ones in the beggining who opposed them and was truly sad about he loss of Tulga but I decided to have an open mind and give them a chance even though I thought they would be no good. I was hoping they would prove me wrong. Here I am now...I havn't been able to pay for any of my accounts in almost half a year and they havn't responded to my tickets at all. I have never seen such a company. The servers have been degrading and have been shut down in some case and we have more empty promises that we can count. I have never seen a group of people who cares so little about EVERYTHING. Here's the thing EI, you can spout words all you want but it's actions that make a difference, and your actions tell us of the Horizons world that we mean about as much to you as something slimy on the bottem of your shoe.
    Nayuaka and Nayukhuut. Freelance Helian lorekeepers of Chaos.

  3. #3

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    As I mentioned to Steelclaw earlier, it seemed to me, in the middle of the night when I was reading it, that the first response to this thread was going to lead the way toward another parade of bitterness, thus taking the voice away from his original post.

    So, in trying to figure out my responsibility to the proprietor whilst I find myself unexpectedly caring for their store front, I locked it temporarily to think it out. I didn't delete it, just slowed the responses for a bit, until I could understand how to moderate this.

    Steelclaw's poll gives voice to all the veteran's mourning the passing of Horizons that WAS. Horizons has changed -- and it won't ever be the same world that we loved. It has become something else and we have to face that and go on, hopefully without coming off like a bunch of spoiled 2 year olds in the process.

    Everything changes, and continues to change. Friends move away and new folks move into their old homes. We all lose something or someone we love at some point in life and learn a lot about ourselves in the mourning of it. Things often don't turn out the way we expected. Wasting time yelling about who's to blame only prolongs the pain of the change for everyone involved. And yet, we still feel the need to express our pain.

    So after some thought, I'm going to open this thread again and ask folks who post to it to please keep it civil. In the end, we are all guests on someone else's property here.
    Eileen Mavourneen, Fury of Feladan, Remembers Ilvoldi Evanar

  4. #4
    Member velveeta's Avatar
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    Default i agree totally with keeping things civil, eileen

    but, in the real world, guests don't pay to be on someone's else property, especially rentals.
    if your 'guests' are forking over cashy money, and are expected to maintain the 'guest' area, then that is renting and the 'guests' have the right to question and complain and eventually, leave.
    i live in detroit, so i am very familiar with what a 'guest house' without any guests in it looks like......and sooner or later, those 'guest houses' get torn down so the riffraff doesn't take over.

    i was evicted from my 'guest house' summarily and not given the new house i was promised. so, i have had to find somewhere else to live.

    ever hear of the book cadillac hotel? of course you haven't....it was a once great 'guest house' that become too big for its britches, and now it is abandoned, an eye sore, and scheduled for demolition. you can see go see it, for a little while, and dream about its glorious heyday. if you can imagine the beauty that was thru the broken glass and boarded up doors. all that is left after the guests all left and the drug dealers and gangs moved in.


    ps-eileen is right tho. being rude or crude will not make this ending any easier for anyone. please remember that and do not make jerks of yourselves. let horizons end with what little grace it can still muster up.
    you can't cast a play in hell and expect angels as actors
    check out my game blog: https://velveeta3.livejournal.com/

  5. #5

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    >So after some thought, I'm going to open this thread again and ask folks who >post to it to please keep it civil. In the end, we are all guests on someone >else's property here.

    Yu mean because this COMMUNITY forum is maintained by the owners we as ex-players or active players must respect them but they don't have to respect us?

    If I where you I would start thinking a bit more abou how players from Blight and Unity are feeling and what their RIGHTS on this forum should be.

    I slowly must say this whole forum becomes totally irrelevant, what happens on this forum is the same as saying the detainees in guantanamo are GUESTS on US property and should respect their torturers. Well I have a bit of news here... as long as I live I will stand up to bullies, liers, criminals and others that think they can trample the good and honest common man. And everybody that has the right morality should join the ranks of the people that have the truth and morals behind them. And in this case that are the PLAYERS and not the PROPERTY HOLDERS!

    Good day!
    Rhialto,
    100CHSW/100WIZ/100CON/100CLRC
    The Iron Watch
    Ice Server

  6. #6

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    Eileen, it's kinda funny how you, through good intentions, attempted to direct this topic to be a more useful topic as opposed to a "bash the system" topic as so many are turning into these days. It's kinda funny because the following posts totally ignore the original intent of the topic and only comment on what you had to say as moderator. At least the replies have been relatively civil.

    I also am going to comment seni-off topic. To those who continually shed their opinion that the game is over and dead, why don't you just leave us hopefulls to our own possibly or probably deluded dreams of a better and fixed Horizons. Don't you have anything better to do with your time? (Rhetorical question)

  7. #7

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    Rhialto...I have no idea how much frustration you must be experiencing since your server was brought down with nary a word...but comparing your situation to guantanamo bay is way out of league. In fact, I'm a little offended by your drawing the comparison between not being able to play an avatar to those being subjected to horrendous physical/mental/emotional torture. C'mon dude, perspective here.....

    And Vandalin...I also don't have a whole lot of patience for people who do not play the game commenting on its inevitable demise on the official forums, but those are few and far between. Many, many of the posters here are paying to play, or wish too. And so far we're working with one and half servers vs four. Blight and Unity are gone, Chaos is troublesome at best. Alot of people just want their moneys worth...others want to know why there has been no word on character transfers. Deluded that HZ will grow and contnue? I'd say very, since all things come to an end. This game won't be up and running in 25 or 30 years, no matter who owns the ******** thing. Heck, with the current ownership I'd say accepting the current state and hoping the database problems wont' interrupt game play to point of irrevocability is about all we've got. And for those left with things to do, who still enjoy logging in, this isn't appears not to be a problem. And I say good, keep logging in, enjoying yourself, and paying for your sub (if you can that is).

    And I imagine those that got screwed over in billing DON'T have anything better to do with their time. My 2 cents.
    Last edited by Aria; March 16th, 2007 at 02:26 AM.
    'The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, ..., the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars' - Kerouac

  8. #8
    Member velveeta's Avatar
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    Default my 2 cents

    Vandalin - check the title of this thread.......

    Aria - amen, sister....horizons is not a prison camp, and it may not have been the best comparision......
    you can't cast a play in hell and expect angels as actors
    check out my game blog: https://velveeta3.livejournal.com/

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by velveeta
    Aria - amen, sister....horizons is not a prison camp, and it may not have been the best comparision......
    No, HZ isn't and never was a prison camp.

    Still, given the fact you think of your Avatar as the mirror of a real existing human, the player, EI does the same to him as the US Government does to the "prisoners" in Guantanamo - trampling on law and human rights.

    And if you evaluate that thought, EI is keeping our Characters in prison - being a torture for some of us, having built those characters up in 3 years of "hard work" and with passion.

    Having played on Unity and being forced to deal with the non-existant support of GN, i never thought a company could treat it's paying costumers worse than GN - but i was so ******** wrong ...

  10. #10

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    Rhialto, HAG- I sign your statements

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aria

    And I imagine those that got screwed over in billing DON'T have anything better to do with their time. My 2 cents.
    and because you didn't have it happen to you it never happened at all eh ? No one knows the scope of the billing issues but it was significant enough for a state AG to have a still open and ongoing investigation on it eh ? State AG's do not engage in such activities unless they have sufficient cause to do so.

    of course those that comment on the game that do not play it would get any fannies knickers in a wad. This has been the history and the legacy almost unique to Horizons. You have had two camps for this game. Those that loved it and those that hated it and nowhere inbetween shall the two sides meet. It has been my experience that those on the love side really hate it when reality is brought into stark crystal absolute clarity for them. Its been that way since Bowman had the game and now the group that now owns it.

    Fact is thus

    the game is closer to death now under PME/EII than it ever was under Bowman. Under the old company there was at least a glimmer of hope and a posibility that the game would stick around if only as a small game ( it was never going to be a primetime title sorry ). But PME seems to have bought into a game they thought they would have to do little to no work on say for a few simdoc addons. In fact their business model almost clearly states that they want to buy up as many small games as possible put them on a stable server and just let them run. No where on any of their webpages do they say they are actual developers or will actually continue development on any title they buy. They certainly haven't with their other game and have just been adding basic content provided by the oversea's original developers and have added nothing of their own.

    I think we can safely say that PME/EII was gravely mistaken as to the scope of the project called Horizons. A mistake that will cost those that still love the game dearly.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by MadDwarf
    and because you didn't have it happen to you it never happened at all eh ? No one knows the scope of the billing issues but it was significant enough for a state AG to have a still open and ongoing investigation on it eh ? State AG's do not engage in such activities unless they have sufficient cause to do so.
    Maddwarf, you completely missed the sarcasm in my quote you linked. Before going on the rampage there, try rereading it. *shrugs* It was in response to Vand's rhetorical query. In no way shape or form, do I think that billing issues A. never affected anyone, or B. since it didn't happen to me, it must not have happened to anyone. In fact, I think PME should be held responsible, but since the AG closed the case, doesn't appear any of the victims here will receive their just due. And that makes me sadder than you would ever know.

    And Rhialto, I stand by the fact you are out of line here. Characters don't mirror real life. PME doesn't mirror torturous guards. It sucks ALOT that your source of enjoyment, that you've payed for and invested in, has been yanked out from under you..but again, in no way does this reflect prison camp. More like, your favorite golf course, that you've been golfing on regularly for years, building relationships with fellow golfers, experiencing so many good times, has been bought out by new ownership...and suddenly the grass stops being mowed, the sand maintained, the golf carts break down...and a few of your buddies find out their memberships have been overbilled...but you stick with it until one Saturday you go and find chains on the front gate with a sign promising a move if viable. Sure there are other golf courses, but this one felt like home and you've lost something valuable. THAT is a viable comparison. Give the prisons and torture a rest ok? Its melodramatic, and quite frankly, wrong.
    'The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, ..., the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars' - Kerouac

  13. #13

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    Hag, Rialtho I sign you comments.


    as for Aria... you know what the hardest is ? the knowing that you won`t know a thing until those that do knowwhat you want to know decided to let you know what you wanted to know what they all that time knew already ...

    Sounds confusing ? Heck... guantamo prisoners (good or bad! ) are also confused about their situation and cn`t do a thing to improve or get clarity about it

  14. #14

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    For all that took offense at comparing the owners of guantanamo with the new owners of this forum I can understand and ofcourse I know that real abuse is not the same as virtual abuse.

    It was just a comparison and nothing more. It just popped up in my head and I wrote it down that way...

    maybe because I am so used to seeing the truth every day, for me it does not have the "terror" or fear factor anymore but is just part of my reality, since I could tell you things that are much worse than guantanamo... in a sense most people are in psychological-prison camp called "normal society" without knowing ... but explaining this would take this threat totally out of subject.

    For the people that where offended I appologize for that was not my intention using the comparison.

    I don't play any games anymore, but still read the HZ forum, not to always bash but just for old times sake and sometimes I cant suppress the urge to post. I think HZ could have been made much better even with the current engine if they would have listened to the players more, starting form beta onwards. So many ideas and good feedback has been squandered by not reading or ignoring or really contemplating good player ideas. IN a sense this has always been a big problem with Horizons for it was not finished when it started.
    Rhialto,
    100CHSW/100WIZ/100CON/100CLRC
    The Iron Watch
    Ice Server

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhialto
    Yu mean because this COMMUNITY forum is maintained by the owners we as ex-players or active players must respect them but they don't have to respect us?
    No, Rhialto, I mean because WE, the community of Horizons players, maintain this forum for ourselves and this is the face that we show to the world and each other. The space is provided for us, just like rooms in a hotel or a boarding house, but it is US who live here, not the absent proprietor -- it is US the world judges by the way we maintain our living area. We deserve to look like the reasonable, helpful people we are rather than like an angry mob or a day care for screaming toddlers, even when we are unhappy with the situation we are in.

    I see Awdz giving people reason to smile with her puzzles and her suggestions;
    I see Godly and Aria and Hitachio and Steelclaw holding out that last glimmer of hope with suggestions for things they wish they'd see here and trying to make a positive difference;
    I see C`gan and Dorrin and a host of others still setting goals and making plans for what they can do while the lights still shine here;
    I see folk of this community here helping each other with quests and combat strategies and I see US trying to help each other figure out how to make our game run on Vista (with less luck than we would wish);

    I see US helping provide for folk who chose to pick up and rebuild after their losses on Blight and Unity and I see US making arrangements to meet up and maintain our sense of community in other worlds for those who choose not to stay. Finally, I see US saying heartfelt goodbyes when the time comes for each to move on. So many of US who have lost more than you could guess and yet quietly help each other to move on and deal with it, WE are the ones still here in this forum.


    And so it's out of respect for ourselves then, and for each other, that we need to keep our heads and mind the ways we express our disappointments (please notice that I have NOT said not to express them, feel free to do so while minding the sensibilities of your community), because right now, we are all we have ‘til the lights do in fact go out. I think that is why Steelclaw chose to do this the way he has and I think his thread deserves to be heard with that in mind.
    Eileen Mavourneen, Fury of Feladan, Remembers Ilvoldi Evanar

  16. #16

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    The whole point of the disenchantment are these facts:

    We payed money for 2 1/2 years before EI / PME took over, to play and enjoy this game. In those 2 1/2 years we have seen promises that were kept, promises that were broken, and promises that just "vanished".

    But you know what? There was someone making the promises, and at least some of the things that were "said" actually made it into the game. And soon, Confectioner changes, Dryad and Dwarven housing plots / trees, and other "possible" changes were in the future. And we all knew that, given time, and hope, that somehow David would get "some" of these things into the game that we, the players, sat at the edge of our seats waiting for.

    Now take this turn of events: Stories and quests written by Peter Beagle dismissed like yesterday's news. A company that isn't tooled up with the correct "IT" background to handle simple things like coding, server administration, or how to put up a proper secure billing solution for its customers to use. Sure... a few "promises" were made from these people, but they were broad in category. No specifics like "Saddles for Dragons" or "Confectioner revamp" or "bug fixes".... just a simple "We are working on it... have patience."

    The silence is not golden, it's not even copper, it's not even tangible. There is no communication to the player base about "exactly" is on the pony list (because there isn't one). They pretty much know that we know the only reason EI / PME exists is to keep the electricity running to the servers and make sure the automatic server maintenance runs every Wednesday.

    Once blight disappeared, that was the end of any hopes of a confectioner change, or 1:1:1 tricuts. It was the only server that had the next patch delta on it.

    Several of us who do still play ask ourselves "Is there anything more..." as the stagnant world with no change, no addition, and no growth will wear thin quickly with the faith of those who still play are tested to the point of quitting. With other offers out there, in far more richly populated games and developers that are adding content and fixing things, Faith becomes all the player here in Istaria has anymore.

    We know these facts to be true, we will not see any more new content, only WM run events (which haven't been done for 4 months now), and any bugs in the game... will remain. We can only hope that somewhere down the line, another investor removes this game from PME and makes an effort to at least see if content can be added to give hope to a world that has many wondering...

    "is there more?"
    Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
    Flatspin: Ancient Lunus Dragon 100 / Craft 100 / Lairshaping 100

  17. #17
    Member Zexoin's Avatar
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    Default

    I agree with you Eileen. We all know that the end is near, so enjoy the time you have left. It is time to get your lvl 100 classes, to begin you (A)RoP, to finish your plot and lair buildings. Lots of nice hunts and crafting frenzy awaits us. The most important is to stay together, and enjoy the time left.

  18. #18

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    Well said, Justa. That summarizes very well what I've seen.
    Eileen Mavourneen, Fury of Feladan, Remembers Ilvoldi Evanar

  19. #19

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    Yes Justa. I agree full heartedly with you. I miss the old times where we saw improvements. Or even signs of life. Many say but yes, at least we still have a game to play but I say what happens if a bug crops up that will stop you from say creating any crafted materials. No one is there to fix it. We used to have security in our game. Tulga was never perfect but at least we knew they had ours and the games best interests at heart. EI never even takes the time to say hello.
    Nayuaka and Nayukhuut. Freelance Helian lorekeepers of Chaos.

  20. #20

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    Thank you Justa. That was a great and much needed post.
    'The only people for me are the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, ..., the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars' - Kerouac

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