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Thread: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

    (IC) I find the idea of a pre-Rite much more agreeable than a secondary Rite. Such a thing will not only prove to the adults that the hatchling is willing and capable to undertake the task, but also perhaps help to dispell this myth that those who choose to seek the sky sooner rather than later are somehow weaker and inferior for it. I also see it as being less likely that the elders of our proud community will harass us as badly as I fear a secondary Rite may cause.

    *grins and gives Maekrux a friendly nudge* There's no need to feel so beaten, if nothing this conversation is slowly leaning into a more constructive nature, given the sensitivity of the subject.*

    <ooc> Im fine with it either way really. Any such even would be fun and community building. Lan may even help in some ways, tho he'd rather die than submit to a secondary rite - but thats more of a pride thing. I've already aired my concerns, and even then, Im confident that the vast majority of the community will treat us fairly regards to when we choose to ascend. That only leaves the rare souls that seem to feel that regardless of your race, that by your mid 20's/ early 30's you should instantly seem to know where absolutely everything in this game is, to use such a thing as fuel for further griefing.
    I promise to keep quiet now, im rather interested of the opinions of the you need to be 50+ side myself.

  2. #22
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    Default Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    ::takes a carrot from Tokoz and chews on it:: Hmm.

    Here's how they are developing so far. (Changes are italicized for convenience.)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    Community Rites of Passage
    Requirements: 40 seasons of adventuring, 35 seasons of crafting, one Dented Bell as a symbol of that which is to be repaired.

    Features: A tailor-made Rite of Passage for an individual that is much harder to use the help of others to complete, simply due to uniqueness of the tests ahead. Young Adults choose a path of Warrior, Scholar, or Primalist. This represents the place in draconic society they wish to take a part in and develop. If a dragon should wish to chose a different path, such as I chose Historian, they may chose it and of course the tasks will be altered to fit that role. This can be taken before the Rites, as a way of proving ready for adulthood, or after for those that wish to assuage the fears of the community elders ((or maybe just for fun)).

    Tasks: Tasks will be far more individualized and test in ways that the First Rites do not. For example, a warrior will of course be asked to fell a great beast, but a warrior too must be able to tell of that battle; therefore, there might be a test of oratory in the form of a storytelling at a gathering. There might be forging and naming of claws which can be verified as an individual's work; there might be a training regiment that a warrior must decide upon and enact. Anything that might describe a 'dragon warrior' could be used in these Secondary Rites. Tasks may also be directed under Helian and Lunus slants; a Helian Warrior, for instance, would have different views and tasks than a Lunus Warrior.

    Failure to complete a task: If a task is not done by an individual, is not completable by the individual at the current time, or is not done to some pre-determined requirement of satisfaction, the Secondary Rites are halted and may be resumed within a week's time.

    Completion of the Community Rites: Once a pre-determined length of challenges has been completed, the dented bell is replaced with a gold one, and the passing individual is announced on the dragon channel and here on the boards.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    I believe a great deal of fear rests within the elder community who holds to this tradition for hatchlings that take wing too early; it has been proven more often than not that a hatchling who takes wing early Fades early. In offering a type of additional Community Rite, an individual might thereby prove his or her readiness to take to the sky and participate as a part of the community. Whether this is shown before or after the Rites of Passage, I suppose, is irrelevant. We elders have seen many rise and Fade and are by nature inherently afraid of those who seek to grow so quickly, for those that expedite life also expedite death; we have placed great hopes and friendships and bonds with these individuals, but as I am well-qualified to attest, it has left holes in our hearts that we are deathly afraid to see widen. Pride of our race aside, I do not think even we elders would like to see early fliers leave, but offer them a place among us. And yet, without some assurance that the old wounds will not be torn asunder, how can we open our chests so readily and expose our hearts?

    I suppose I am becoming less productive now, so let us return to the changes. A pre-Rite or post-Rite should be able to predict the same thing, and it seems many early fliers would like that opportunity for early-fliers to be. I also changed the name to reflect this alteration and those who are helping to and benefit from its development.

    Hmm, who else would like to speak?
    Last edited by Kaerisk; October 15th, 2007 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Language, language, language.
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  3. #23

    Default Re: Seconary Rites for Early Fliers?

    Tokoz: ooo oh oh oh!

    Can I write it?

    I write good ceremony type stuff. Just look at the bonding ceremony I wrote:
    http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=10090

    um, just don't expect me to very say it right or anything. And I hope you want lots of references to carrots!

    Plink: /em makes a cutting motion across his neck from over Tokoz's shoulder and shakes his head "no" vigorously. He stands on a handy rock and makes choking motions while holding his breath until his face turns almost as blue as Tokoz's.

    Tokoz: /em turn his large neck around and looks at Plink, who stops what he is doing and hands the dragon a carrot.

    Plink: Here ya go.

    Tokoz: Only one?

    Plink: I ate the other one.

    Tokoz: Choked on it did you?

    Plink: No that was something else.

    Tokoz: Something else? /em looks around for something else Plink might have brought to eat. What was it?

    Plink: Unaltered *cough* truth.

    Tokoz: Aren't you a little old to be losing teeth?

    Plink: /em puts his arm around Tokoz's large neck forcing the dragon down to near the ground. No it's a dryad thing. Did I ever tell you about the time I took on 15 of the Aegis bare-handed?

    Tokoz: (awestruck) No. Is that how you lost the tooth?

    Plink: /em turns and winks back while mouthing "He'll forgot you wanted it now", and turns back to the dragon. "Believe me friend. There's not a shred of truth... er tooth in this tale.
    Last edited by Tokoz; October 16th, 2007 at 12:59 AM. Reason: Gave Plink a neck

  4. #24
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    Thumbs up Re: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

    OOC:

    I'd like to start out with saying that the community is very deep and one of the best ones I've been engaged in since beta. I like that the community dictates and holds traditions true to their shard, etc. I don't know how this new proposal would take though. When a new player joins the game, they eventually find out of the requirements to fly. To them, there are no penalties to ascending other than not acquiring the special scales at level 50. Some people choose to keep them because they last you until you're level 80, some people would rather fly early. There are benefits to picking both, one benefit just lasts longer (scales).

    The Order community is half and half. One side feels like you should play the game how you choose to. There is a requirement for your Rites and thats all you should need to start and finish them. After all, you need the same help at level 30 that you would need at level 50. Whether you wait or not, you will need help from the community in some form. Granted you are doing more, but the facts remain.

    The second half waited to do their Rites, got the scales and were acknowledged for doing so. They were praised with their patience, learning and abilities to contribute a significant amount of damage/legwork to their own Rop, compared to their adult companions. They are held to a higher standing in most cases and thus, it tends to breed elitism which could account for the "weak vs superior" arguments.

    With this new proposal, its further setting apart the ones that do their Rites early as if they are inferior in our eyes, especially if they choose not to do the secondary rites. I do not condone this for this reason: Its like punishing the bad. And this "bad" isn't deserving of acknowledgment in my opinion. This "bad or weak" was made by the community and by those that waited and feel that they are in some way superior because they contributed more to their Rites. Respecting those that waited is good. Good in that the hatchling obviously showed patience in doing their rites later, but again CAN breed ego and elitism thats been passed down for years since they did/can do more in their rop without help.

    This idea looks like a "punish the bad" since many have made it clear that taking your rites early is not acceptable by the community and they need to play their "Get Out of Jail Free" card. I hope this makes sense. I love how the community pressures the new hatchlings to wait, but I don't like the elitist attitude that people in Dragon channel often have because they chose to wait and some people didn't. Not that you do at ALL Meakrux, I actually like that you are proposing a solution for hatchlings to redeem themselves if they choose to do the extra work. If they don't choose to do it though, then what? I just don't like the ridicule and judgment folks get because the clique in Dragon channel doesn't approve. This is all speaking in general with the general tone that I've seen with the new generation of hatchlings versus how things used to be.

    I do like the idea, but I don't think it should be enforced. There are lots of ways a hatchling can contribute back to the community without feeling pressured into something new. We will all know who takes their rites, what kind of person they are, and we can treat them as they treat us. The society of dragons is rather touchy in this way, because in my opinion, if someone is handed everything to them, their rites, their lair, their scales, having others help them with adventuring and crafting, then they are not playing the game, they're getting a free ride to all the benefits of the game with no effort at all. And this is not to say that someone thats helped with their rites at 30 hasn't earned everything else along the way.

    We are trying to be friendly to everybody, so that people will stay and play the game. I don't want to see someone being made to feel bad for the rest of their dragon life because they chose to do their rites earlier when they could be potential outstanding members of the community.

    I know that the trend of those that fly early, leave early, but really how long does it take to level from 30 to 50? A week or two? Maybe a month of dedicated casual work. Thats not really extending their life by much. However, separating the ones that do their rites early by calling them out is probably worse than letting them do their rites at 30. If they're treated as weak and inferior because they did their rites early OR if they choose not to do the second RoP, I would assume that they'd leave the game and not have many good memories of it. They probably wouldn't come back. But if we all involved EVERYBODY in EVERYTHING with no cliques and groupies, no matter what game style they choose to play, they are more likely to stick around and come back if they do choose to leave.
    Last edited by Kodey; October 18th, 2007 at 02:10 AM.
    __________________________________________________ __________

  5. #25

    Default Re: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

    This brings back old memories when I was a hatchling... I was about Lv50 or so, and I was near those golems near Augundell, I forget which kind of golems, but they were required in a quest, I remember that.

    Anyways, these two "adults", like Lv35 or so, looked at me and said "awww, what a cute little hatchie!"

    They proceed to both take on a single golem... golems that my mighty, but young claws could take down with ease by myself, and nearly get killed by the thing. And here, I was looking at them, and thinking "If it weren't for dragon laws, I'd take those words and shove them right back down your throats."

    Truly, their size meant nothing. The only advantage they had over me, was their wings, which they could use to flee battle with me, for I could have defeated them both at once, and I was but a mere hatchling and they were huge adults.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

    Tokoz: hmmm. More than one "adult" managed to nearly end up with a carrot up th.... er, I mean... I didn't like having much younger dragons say stuff like, "what a cute hatchie."

    Plink: What was the name of that pink one? The one that had to make an emergency trip to the healer in Tazoon to have that carrot extracted from their, er... their ear?

    Tokoz: Don't remember.

    Plink: That was a hoot. I'd never seen you so mad.

    Tokoz: You don't understand. I don't remember anything like that happening. You must be mistaken.

    Plink: No, I remember it clearly. It was just a couple of days...

    Tokoz: /em looking down at the dryad. You don't remember either I'm sure. /em starts digging through his bag of carrots.

    Plink: er, right... what I was I saying? I seem to have lost my train of thought...

    Tokoz: Carrot?

    Plink: /em flies away.

    Tokoz: I guess he wasn't hungry.

  7. #27
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    Default Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    Those were darker days, my friend. Axun, I remember it well. Perhaps it would be a good time to relate the old tale of the last days before the dragons lost their majesty.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    After the Battle of Tazoon, our race was nearly wiped out. Between the loss of so many hatchlings at Draak and then with the loss of so many of our elders and almost all the ancients remaining on Istaria, our race was at a terrible impasse. Those hatchlings who had been too young to send to Draak or did not go for whatever reason, those orphaned now in the Battle, now were unable to grow up, literally. Our race needs the Rites of Passage in order to physically manifest ourselves and be capable of procreation. Indeed, if the remaining elders of the Helian and Lunus had not survived, our race might be extinct today. Realizing the dire straits we found ourselves in, they began to devise a new set of Rites to fit the current world. But for the decade after the battle, there was no hope of ascension.

    Still, we hatchlings were ready to do our part to defend Istaria and reclaim it. We were the pride of our race, our last and greatest hope. There was no glory in being a hatchling in those days; the Aegis still controlled Feladan and enscrolled the satyrs, and the dryads still hid from this realm. Gnomes would frequently loot our hoard stores and due to the Peace Accords we could not harm them. Several times did we feel our forms get even weaker than before, our hearts heavy, our claws burdened with battle, our eyes fixated on the sky - there, surely there, would still remain hope. And with this in our hearts, no matter how hopeless, we grand few trudged on.

    Then, the Disease struck. The Biped Disease, the most horrible affliction dragon kind has ever witnessed. Those dragons struck down by it lost hope, and failed to see their dreams realized. They would grow lethargic and not move for hours at a time, and then finally their bodies would begin to wither and shrivel up and atrophy. And then their bodies would crack horribly, and from their misbegotten shells would arise - Drulkar help me - bipeds. Bipeds with no memory of their former lives, their majesty, their hope. Bipeds of reavers by the thousands it seemed, but truly this Disease was the most regrettable and lamentable fate ever to befall a dragon.

    We took these losses and continued our fight. We dragons grew stronger from our loss and our battles. We defended the crafters at the Satyr caves, struck resounding blows to the enscrolling crystals, and the bipeds looked up to us, even if we were small in stature. We who suffered and continued to hold the torch within our hearts, our burning souls unquenchable by grief or despair, we were shining examples of our race, and the bipeds grew to depend on us. It was a dark time, to be sure, but in a way it was the most alive time in this world.

    At last, the elders devised a new Rite, using the energy in the land, even that of the Aegis itself. They set the last remaining dragon historian to work in a cave outside Chiconis, and so at last the Rites began. Oh what a brilliant fervor we launched ourselves into our Rites! There was such a rush to be first in those days, truly the first and most magnificent of the hatchlings of the dragon race! We fought, most often alone, in our Rites, and overcame the challenges set out before us, banding together for only the greatest of foes our trainers dare set before us! And then at last it was done. The hatchlings took to the skies as full adults, and the bipeds looked upon us with awe and amazement and begged to watch us fly. They looked to us even more as strong and unwavering defenders of Istaria and respected us often to their very cores. I remember, humorously enough, that I spent most of my time in khutit form as a new adult, for my size frightened the bipeds so! It was a truly astounding time. However, it was short lived...

    Something happened then we could never have expected. Suddenly, hatchlings started appearing out of no where - and no, I don't mean from all the happy adults! They crawled out of holes they had buried themselves in to hibernate while others did their fighting, unwilling to put forth the effort to stand beside us in our time of need for all the trials we hatchlings faced. Axun, even some of those who had caught the Biped Disease temporarily reverted, as if the sound of the call of the Rites had somehow triggered an ancient memory in their minds of the hope they had given up for dead. These hatchlings were ill-prepared for the Rites, but somehow they managed to complete them; for some, it was bonds they had formed in a previous existence, for some the supreme wish to see our race foster. Oh, but that foolish choice...

    The second wave of hatchlings took to the sky like blundering idiots. They demonstrated their flying skills by crashing into each other, their bulk getting in the way of their already atrophied fighting styles. They laughed at all the hatchlings who had not yet completed their Rites, and flew off to the front lines. There, they fought with bipeds as if to gain their legs again. The bipeds looked to these new adults for support, but these adults were not the dragons the bipeds had come to know and respect! These dragons could barely lift a claw to help them, and inevitably they found the only good use they had for their wings: running away, leaving our biped allies to die.

    The majesty of our race in the eyes of the bipeds was shattered. It has never been recovered.

    Praise be to Drulkar that these dragons soon experienced the Fading. I pray to the First Dragon that they continue to fly to this day, fly away from Istaria until their wings fall off and they crawl like wurms on the ground. After that time, it was decided by those shaken adults and even some hatchlings that the Rites should never be rushed. We tried to set an agreed upon season of strength as a mark of maturity and readiness to ascend, and found that Vladtmort had his own ideas, and in reverence to the only ancient we knew at the time, we set that season to 50. And so was the birth of the tradition that spawned this terrible argument in the first place.

    ----------------------------------------

    It is very disheartening for me to remember these old stories of our shame. But it is also my role as a Keeper of History. Though I am focused on maintaining our past, I am still able to see that this story may no longer be relevant to our current atmosphere. We dragons now have many adults and ancients of good standing and respectable ability. In additions, the Rites have not changed to reflect this current atmosphere, nor can we expect them to. With that in mind, I have decided to introduce these Community Rites as a way of calming the fears and doubts of elders and giving hatchlings and young adults something that they can be proud of - accomplishing a new and challenging task respected by the community at large and focusing their lives into specific roles to better our society as a whole.

    Therefore elders, tell me, is it not time we take a more active role in forming our community? Instead of imposing rules, let us help our hatchlings and young adults better themselves to represent our race as a whole. And young adults and hatchlings, let us work towards a better understanding of ourselves and our people, to give voice to new ideas and new possibilities.

    Our race has time enough to see where this all leads.

    Are there any more voices to be heard? I will end this discussion on Saturday and make my decision then.
    Last edited by Kaerisk; October 18th, 2007 at 06:39 AM. Reason: Gramatical nonsense
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

    OOC: (My new proposal at the bottom)

    I remember that, and I sure do understand why some of us will always have that chip on our shoulder over the whole ordeal with many folks coming back to the game -after- they finally implemented the adult quests and the battles were fought.

    But these times are different. People come to the current game and just want to play. They aren't waiting for anything to be added to the game, they aren't waiting for people to do their content for them, they're just playing it. And because of the blundering idiots stating that they were leaving until the adult quests were put in, suddenly every hatchling that ascends early nowadays gets this sweeping title of "inferior" as well.

    I don't think its fair for the newer generation that knows NOTHING of the history to be held to the same mistakes that were made in the past. Some of the new ones are outstanding members of the community and for them to be mistreated simply because of old hatchling's mistakes in the past is unfair. After all, the new ones are just playing the game, while the old ones lazed around in their caves and waited for people to do their battles for them.

    Some don't even know the history behind WHY some of us older folks would rather them wait until 50. It just seems think that they don't fit in, they are seperate from the rest of the dragon clique, and are treated as inferior for seemingly no apparent reason. It looks like bullying without the history to back the points. At least, thats what I've been told from some of the new hatchlings and young adults since my arrival back a year ago.

    This does not make for good memories of the game and its community.

    (My proposal:) That all the new hatchlings from now on are to be taught the history up front in sort of a roleplay gathering sort of event. At the end of the history lesson, have those of them that wish to follow the footsteps of the old ancient hatchlings that fought the battles and were patient with the dark times, step forward. They would "pledge themselves to the community of old", stating that they are to walk in the footsteps of the ancients, do the scale quests and wait until 50. Those that choose not to, should not have it held against them. They are a newer generation and weren't there to witness the events themselves, so they'd probably feel that it is unfair since the events in the past don't really apply to them (they didn't sit around in their caves, waiting for the grass to get greener).

    I think this would eliminate a lot of the arguing that happens sometimes over the superior vs inferior, give a chance for hatchlings to know the history from the learned like Meakrux+all of us that know it, and help foster some good memories and interaction within the community. Such as congradulating those that took the oath over the Dragon Channel so all may acknowledge them.

    You know, I don't even know why I'm debating the side of the early flier. :D I was against early fliers since the beginning, because waiting showed patience and dedication. I guess its just all the negativity over the subject and the sweeping accusations.
    __________________________________________________ __________

  9. #29
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    Default Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    Axun, I believe as you do, Kodey. This new generation cannot be expected to know this history without help and I have dedicated much of my time to revealing our history to hatchlings as they grow. It may be time for change, but I cannot see either side so willingly abandoning their positions for one or the other side. Knowing the history is not enough, nor is enough for some elders for hatchlings to know this history and disregard it as irrelevant to them, even if it may very well be.

    Rather, I should like to incorporate your idea into the Community Rites; to make this history and reasoning a clear part of the Community Rites, the same way it is made clear in the Rites of Passage the loss of the Sleeper. It would be helpful to keep this in mind when they are more finalized.

    It is disheartening to see such a Schism form in our society, Kodey; no one can discount you for wishing to heal it. Are there any more voices?
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  10. #30

    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    @Dhalin: (IC) I would have done just that actually. Those are a prime example, of why many feel we should wait, that I should wait, till season 50 before ascending.
    Ameo has thought me of our history, and thought me why he feels it is important that I should wait to season 50. While I long for the day that I may fly, very much, I dont have a problem waiting to season 50. If the pre-rites came about, and allowed me to prove myself, and begin my ascention at season 40, I would take it, but I could use those scales, so I will wait to get them.

    @Kodey: (OOC) Update your siggy, your not a hatchie anymore *grins*

  11. #31

    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    My first dragon ascended under level 50 as well, and my new dragon is waiting till 50 because I learned there were level 50 hatchy scales, but I have to disagree with some stuff here.

    Is RoP only about fighting mobs? Isn't there "find the NPC" and stuff that make you think and use your head? I think figuring out where the npcs for the quest is harder than fighting in a game, you press a button and you attack. Sure we had help with fighting the mobs, but not all of us had someone leading our hand the entire way. I remember searching for npcs in the middle of nowhere for Lunus RoP.

    So, there is nothing wrong with ascending as soon as you can. and I am truly discouraged by those who look down at those who decided to fly earlier then others have. We are dragons, we fly, if you choose to wait till 50 to RoP, thats ok, you are playing the game how you want to play it, but please don't scorn those who didn't want to wait till 50, for they are playing the game the way THEY want to play it and you have no right to tell them what to do.
    Last edited by Lunarya; October 19th, 2007 at 03:12 AM.
    Looking for a "dentist" to fix Lunarya's blue teeth

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  12. #32

    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    *chuckles feeling old*

    So adds an old one who remembers it differently from Mae's histories - but then history is always told in the eye of the beholder...*grins toothily*

    I remember when we were able to grow again - I remember the excitement. I was not one of the eldest by experience, even if by soul, but I remember watching with baited breath Kumu's Ascension, the first in our land since the Sleeper and those events. I was not able to help in his ascension - for he had become skilled much faster than me (though if he ever read a book or watched a butterfly I know not *she smiles fondly*). But I still felt such a sense of pride, and wonder, and heartfelt congratulations as I watched him so early one morning, ascend.

    I watched my guildies ascend, some all together. I helped what little I could, or they allowed me along just to see the experience. And I stove as fast as I could to join them in the skies.

    And it did not matter *her eyes gleam* to them wether I was of the same experience to them when I flew. It did not matter to them for we had all waited our own time, and spent it as *we* chose. And it did not matter to them, wether I needed or only wanted their help - for they were equally glad to give it regardess! *snorts thinking of dragons who would not help based on experience only* In quite a fact, everyone equally was excited for each Rite - and looked forward to helping as much as they could! Felt left out if they were not needed!

    And this is how *I* feel. I help every dragon I can - but it is their decision to choose when they are ready. Not mine *flares her nostrils*. We respect our fellow dragons, for them to know in their hearts and minds themselves, when they are ready to fly. It is not for us to judge wether one is superior to another - such petty attitudes are naka worthy - not eilerten worthy. So I challenge any who wish to argue with me on this...for in the end they are only displaying naka resentment - and it is beneath one such as us to do so *nods emphatically*. Such thinking is what led to our Great Schism *sighs sadly and shakes her head, closing her eyes.*

    end IC

    OOC:

    RP histories do not always match up.

    But what i do remember is that game history -I was never given any issues for flying at 33 than at 53 or 103 (as some flew). I was playing and had played as long as Kumu or Menkure or whomever who was in at release, when the Adult rites came - noone ever questioned wether people who hadn't been playing equal time should or should not be able to do the rites.

    People did want minimum stats - but part of those stats also included "RL time" though was thrown out ultimately.

    IN the early days of adulthood - noone in RP or in dragon chat looked down or spoke of looking down on other players, IC or OOC - if they did it certainly wasnt' within my oft present hearing *glares around seriously*. You were excited for your friends whom you'd known for months - you were thrilled to help out and thrilled to be helped! Hell I wouldn't want to do my rite solo - I want my friends and guildies there!

    This "elitism" has only come since those players who had the Rites from "day one".

    IC it doesn't EVEN FIT to me - it makes NO sense IIC wise. Dragons don't have levels IC. You can't tell a dragon's experience from their "Level number" to know that they are an adult or not.

    You tell by wether they are flying and how big they are (well you use to could on that last one). IC you have no knowledge of what level that dragon was when they flew. IC you have on idea what age they were when they flew.

    So to me this is possibly a thin line between RP and metagaming - where your OOC knolwedge of the player is bleeding over into your attitudes of your dragon - when it doesnt' make sense that it would.

    I am NOT against this Idea from an RP individual perspective - for peopel to choose it to *HAVE MORE FUN* with themselves and their RP. Not because it was pressured upon them, not because its "expected" int he community now, not because of anything BUT they felt it was MORE FUN to participate.

    For Kodey your words really scare me -and kinda piss me off actually.

    If anyone around me, OOC or IC wants to make some type of case for why they are or are not better, dragon or otherwise, because they did or did not wait till 50 - then they better be ready for a fight.

    This is merely for FUN people - and NOONE should be excluded, included, looked down upon, made to feel bad, made to feel stupid, or better, or superior or WHATEVER because of their choice in game mechanics. NOW or LATER!

    I would not participate at all in this one bit if I thought it was going ot be used for or against anyone or anything. I do not back this idea at all if you're (anyone not just one person) wanting to make it such a part of our IC subculture that it allows for us to treat newcomers to the game with contempt or disdain because we *chose* to go through these RP "fun" character rites.

    sorry, the mere idea that people would really do that to other players is just really getting me going...*spits fire*

    I hope this makes sense. I love how the community pressures the new hatchlings to wait, but I don't like the elitist attitude that people in Dragon channel often have because they chose to wait and some people didn't. Not that you do at ALL Meakrux
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  13. #33
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    Default Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    ((IC)) History indeed has many voices, Frith-Rae. I, too, distinctly remember that experience that you had, but it was only but one. If I could, I would remove the tradition altogether and be rid of this argument once and for all, but I have not that power. However much I was I did.

    ((OOC: Frith, I'm not quite sure how Kodey's response is angering to you.

    I certainly agree with the sentiment that no one should dictate how the game is played. Except maybe the devs, but not too much. ;p Rather, I wanted to introduce these community rites as a way of expanding our experience here and at the same time healing the wounds that have Frith so very angered. While the story Mae recounted was perhaps the start of it, the traditions themselves continued to evolve because those who became adults early usually left the game early too, and that was no more heartening to elders who wanted to see new life come into the game than the Sleeper Hatchlings. I have been profoundly affected as a character and to a lesser extent as a person in taking many hatchlings - most newcomers to the game - under my wing, only to have them disappear without telling me anything. I can't ask them to keep playing if they don't like the game, but... those who were most likely to stay were those who were willing to ingratiate themselves to that old tradition.

    I do not wish and will not allow our Community Rites to be a method of segregation and ridicule. There is enough of that in the old tradition and I will not let it bleed over into this suture. I would rather see us come together and develop as a community and to explore and expand the possibilities of our characters within that community.

    Are we all clear on this? This is a voluntary process, hopefully a fun process, that no one will blame you for taking or not taking.

    Okay. I'm going to end discussions on Friday now, I believe we're almost to the bottom of the well of ideas in the Community Rites' development.))

    Are there any other voices to be heard?
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  14. #34

    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    This whole thing is why I've run from the dragon channel, run from many things actually. I like the idea and thought of the second rite but I'm very much in agreeance with Frithy here in many many many ways. I was going to post something, glad I didn't as she put it in better words than I could.

    Not sure about what Kodey said? The only thing I dislike about that is "peer pressure" i guess. But it still segregates the two still, and that's an issue. In this case it does it more publicly.

    That's the main issue here, there's segregation no matter how you cut the pie and even this cool RP quest would just further add to the segregation and that feeling, voluntary or not. And despite you feeling and saying it's ok not to do the quest, there will be those who hold it as a triumphant medal above those others who decided not to... In which case they'll feel forced to do it anyhow and feel belittled if they want acceptance in the community.

    There will always be old coots out there who stick to their explosive spells until the day they're stuck to their stones with some weird cane. Just have to deal with it. Chioxin knows this very well. *winks* I just continue to live my own scaley life as I feel, screw the old bats in Dralk and Chiconis! Never liked me anyhow. *Thunders off to a safe distance!*

    It is quite sad though to see the flustering int he community on the subject though, and worries me that many people die off due to it. It's not fun to take that kind of stoning. *Frowns and rubs at his haunches.*

    Tolerance, acceptance, not common traits in most dragons.

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers?

    For Kodey your words really scare me -and kinda piss me off actually.
    I don't understand why they would piss people off. I stated that I didn't like how people were treated about their rites, they should ascend when they want to.
    If anyone around me, OOC or IC wants to make some type of case for why they are or are not better, dragon or otherwise, because they did or did not wait till 50 - then they better be ready for a fight.
    I would expect you to. Nobody is against you doing that.
    This is merely for FUN people - and NOONE should be excluded, included, looked down upon, made to feel bad, made to feel stupid, or better, or superior or WHATEVER because of their choice in game mechanics. NOW or LATER!
    Thats exactly what I wrote my entire post about. What you said here mirrors everything that I posted.
    I would not participate at all in this one bit if I thought it was going ot be used for or against anyone or anything. I do not back this idea at all if you're (anyone not just one person) wanting to make it such a part of our IC subculture that it allows for us to treat newcomers to the game with contempt or disdain because we *chose* to go through these RP "fun" character rites.
    You've confused me quite a bit. I don't know what you're pissed off at exactly, as my post was entirely what you've just said.
    sorry, the mere idea that people would really do that to other players is just really getting me going...*spits fire*
    It does happen, and I want it to NOT HAPPEN. I don't get why you're pissed off at me for this idea, or maybe you confused my post for something else.

    When you quoted:
    I hope this makes sense. I love how the community pressures the new hatchlings to wait, but I don't like the elitist attitude that people in Dragon channel often have because they chose to wait and some people didn't.
    That was implying that I like that the community ("pressuring" was the wrong word, I guess) strongly advising hatchlings to wait -because- of the scales they would miss out on. *grins*

    @Carenath: I'll have to make a new pic to go with my new signature, so I'll do that over the weekend some time.
    Last edited by Kodey; October 19th, 2007 at 10:09 PM.
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  16. #36
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    Default Community Rites for Early Fliers.

    You're right, Chioxin, I know this. And despite the difficulty involved, despite that there will always be this bigotry ((that I hope is entirely RP driven as it is with me, though I certainly can't speak for all)), despite that people are not liking the idea of change one way or another, I still try. I have to. That is my nature as the Blue Phoenix. Some part of me still remains from when I was a hatchling, when I still held so tightly to the dreams that I could make a positive difference in this community. For quite some time, I gave up as you did and retreated into my mountain and loathed the world. But loathing the world will never change the world, only worsen your perceptions of it. And so I became a teacher of hatchlings, regained my status as a Keeper of History, and now I am here, begging and pleading and bleeding and fighting to find some compromise. Perhaps my hopes are too high. But as I said, some of that hatchling still lives within me - I am too stubborn to give up.


    With that said, I have considered many viewpoints that have come to this forum. I have seen that both sides immediately struck at it and we have done our best to hammer out the differences. There has been no significant outcry against the Community Rites and most of our qualms have been met and overcome. As such, I have decided to implement the Community Rites. It will still be a week more before I hammer our the details, but know that each Rite can be quite individual to the task at question. I believe it will follow a set of five tests, adaptable for the individual at question.

    I will state this right here and now, however. I will not brook anyone to use these Community Rites as a method of discrimination or bigotry. These Rites are not the Rites of the trainers, but our own self-formed, self-decided creation; to spit so in the face of these Rites is to so spit in the face of the community. No one will harbor you any malice if you choose to take or not to take the rites, or to have no opinions thereof, but to use these as a tool of hatred should have equally harsh repercussions.

    Henceforth, I am closing discussion on this part of the development process. When there is more concrete tiers and tests to be fine tuned, discussion can resume in a different thread. I look forward to continuing them there.
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  17. #37

    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers.

    I just wanted to clarify - though I spoke to Kodey in game..

    HIS words didn't make me mad - not what he did. I was more mad at the attitude he was talking about from others. Not at KODEY but the attitude he had seen displayed - *that* was what I was mad at .

    (cuz yea I was agreeing with him, it was 3 am, and it got me ranting lol).
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  18. #38
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    Default Community Rites for Early Fliers

    Future discussion on the development of the Community Rites will be in the Community section of the boards. Thank you all again for helping in the creation and criticism of these Rites and I hope you will continue to help as we move into the next phase of development.
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  19. #39

    Default Re: Community Rites for Early Fliers

    I really realy realy hope though that it just doesn't cause more separation and tearing. It's still setting aside "those who have" and "those who haven't" no matter how you cut it.

    But... I'm sorta out anyhow. Take care in the matter! ^..^

    P.S. - My mountain hole is quite nice! Secluded, thank you very much!!! ^..^

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Seconard Rites for Early Fliers?

    /em suddenly develops an inferiority complex


    ((Alright, I had to read this thread over twice before I could figure out how to put what I feel into words. I see pro's and con's with both sides.

    Having a second Rite would be alright, provided that EVERY dragon from season 1 to 100 was required to complete it. Or on the other hand, a second Rite that was COMPLETELY optional. If you're going to require every dragon who flies earlier rather than later to complete it, you're basically 'punishing' them for not waiting. Penalizing them for something they may or may not have known about. A pre-Rite wouldn't be a bad idea either.

    However, at the same time it should be the choice of the dragon, really, whether they take it early or late. There's no existing proof that an early riser is any less capable or worthy than one who waits to fly later. In the end, we all fight the same battles, gain the same experience, and acquire the same knowledge of those dragons of equal rating who waited to do so. There's no reason an early riser should feel shamed or guilty for not achieving a certain traditional level before attempting to complete their Rite.

    From a Roleplay standpoint, I definitely agree with the passing of the knowledge of such traditions. But keep in mind not everyone who comes to Istaria has such beliefs. Some enjoy the Roleplay as the base of their gameplay, some enjoy it on occasion, and others not so much. Some may prefer to fly earlier than tradition dictates. Their choice shouldn't determine their worthiness as a valued member of Istarian society.

    I completed my Rite of Passage in my early 30s, a long, long, long... very long time ago. If I had known then what I did now, I would have waited. Back then I was not aware that such a tradition existed, nor of what could be gained from completing it mid-season. Given that information, I plan to raise several of my many hatchlings to the traditional season of 50 before attempting their Rite.

    Way back when I took my Rite, the Rite was a special event. Not just for the hatchling, but for everyone involved. Part of the reason it was so special was the fact that it took the community to help raise the dragon. In this game, it's very easy, granted very slow, to climb from season 1 to 100 completely on your own. Regardless of what season the Rite is taken, the help of others will be required at some point.
    Noelani of Blight -100 DRA / 100 DRC / 40 DLS / 40M Hoard
    Amryth of Blight - 58 DRA / 35 DRC
    Amecha the Neglected of Blight and Order - ?/?/?/?

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