Original Ancient Model

[Dremora]

Perhaps I should just over write the adult and ancient models with the Juvenile models.. that way I don't have to deal with the Adult models either.

This really makes me wonder why you even play Horizons in the first place. There are dragons, and they are big. Tough.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

It was also no great secret that one of the devs whose primary responsibilities included Dragons and the ARoP had an axe to grind with Dragons and Dragon players, reportedly "enjoying" screwing with both.

Okay, seriously now. Let's put away the narcissism and conspiracy theories here and take a step back:

-The ancient assets were in place back before launch but were never used in-game by players
-Once the ARoP was coming into place these models were actually being prepared for use for players
-Testers were noticing problems with the models not quite fitting into some places as intended
-An artist was assigned to update the ancient ancient models and make them fit better
-Everyone on the development staff moved on, although the new body meshes still need work to make the heads fit right

No, really, that's what happened. If Jason or David or any of the developers wanted to screw with dragon players there would be much better ways to do it. Bring back the old "dragons descended from highly intelligent chickens" fun fact for example; it used to be listed on the old, old support site.

Seriously though, I can't see the old models even being considered. There are enough complaints from people having problems selecting objects under their dragon even when it is done on a per-poly basis and reverting is going to cause more clipping concerns with world objects. There isn't a new argument here about models, it's the old standby of dragons always ALWAYS wanting to be more powerful.

That opinion has and always will be a part of the game. The developers try to, you know, make a /game/ with all that crap like checks and balances and dragons want their ego boosted. It's a unique aspect of the race that will never be satiated no matter what is done. From that, though, I can see how it could appear that the developers have it out against dragons, even though every developer understands that the sole reason Horizons has survived this long is because of the playable dragon feature. Nevermind the entirely dragon-only developments like lairs and lairshaper, developers are totally out to get you. If you see one acting frustrated, it may be because they realized long, long ago that it's impossible to please everyone and the weight of the world has crushed their spirits?

As a guide for further reading I present a copy of "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie" by Laura Joffe Numeroff.

[Tokoz]

I LIKE that book. It would have been better with carrots though.

I didn't vote. I am easily happy. I'd like dragon eatable raw carrots, a bison for daughter's plot, oh and slight permanent changes to the dragon bounding box, like what Blue did, would be nice.

[Fratricide]

This really makes me wonder why you even play Horizons in the first place. There are dragons, and they are big. Tough.

hehe.. you are funny... I don't play Horizons to play a dragon, nor to necessarily be near dragons... I do/have helped dragons do their quests.. and still will... I just find it odd that the most complaints I see on these boards are from folks that play dragons that think they are still getting the raw end of the stick. This ancient model thing has been hashed over and over already... ever since the ARoP testing was started... now... I don't know if you were here then.. and I don't care actually... The ancient sizes as they are now are plenty large. On a previous thread about Ancient dragon model sizes I also posted that if the difference desired was to be double each time... then just create a new model for the adult to be halfway sized between the juvenile and current ancient sizes...

If you go through these forums and actually read some of the threads... and look at the stats for that matter... you will notice that Dragon players dominate the forums... go look at the Istarian life section... Dragons have 700+ threads with 11k+ posts... Bipeds have just over 500 threads with a mere ~3500 posts... Hmm... I think that reveals a whole bunch there... And before this really turns into flaming and/or flame baiting... Ill stop.

[Dremora]

hehe.. you are funny... I don't play Horizons to play a dragon, nor to necessarily be near dragons... I do/have helped dragons do their quests.. and still will... I just find it odd that the most complaints I see on these boards are from folks that play dragons that think they are still getting the raw end of the stick. This ancient model thing has been hashed over and over already... ever since the ARoP testing was started... now... I don't know if you were here then.. and I don't care actually... The ancient sizes as they are now are plenty large. On a previous thread about Ancient dragon model sizes I also posted that if the difference desired was to be double each time... then just create a new model for the adult to be halfway sized between the juvenile and current ancient sizes...

If you go through these forums and actually read some of the threads... and look at the stats for that matter... you will notice that Dragon players dominate the forums... go look at the Istarian life section... Dragons have 700+ threads with 11k+ posts... Bipeds have just over 500 threads with a mere ~3500 posts... Hmm... I think that reveals a whole bunch there... And before this really turns into flaming and/or flame baiting... Ill stop.

Actually, I was there way before the ARoP was ever even implemented. I have no idea what lots of posts by dragons has to do with any of this, either.

Anywho, on those suggesting the ancient dragon size is an ego thing, it couldn't be farther from the truth (for me at least). Think of hatchling and adult dragons for example; they are easily distinguished while an ancient and adult aren't as much. Not to me, anyway. I think there SHOULD be a very visible difference, especially with all we have went through. And no, I am not one of the "I pwn j00 im a huge dragon lolol" types. And like others have said, it is easier for a biped, hatchling or khutit to see beneath the original models than the ones we have now.

Come to think of it, though, I'm starting to regret even starting this thread in the first place. I didn't know that the ancient size was absolutely final or not, or what happened besides some people whining that they were too big.

[Magfuddle]

pfft ! sif dragons need to be bigger ... they eat too much already !

[Dremora]

pfft ! sif dragons need to be bigger ... they eat too much already !

But I enjoy eating

[Pharcellus]

Okay, seriously now. Let's put away the narcissism and conspiracy theories here and take a step back:

Let's be a little more clueful here...

-The ancient assets were in place back before launch but were never used in-game by players

Wrong. In the final testing before the nerf, the old Ancient models WERE actually played by players on Blight. The nerf occurred during that time after the ARoP testing came to a head and we had Ancients on Blight and before it rolled to live. I know, precisely because we were testing them with unpatched original ancient models, and they CHANGED before they rolled to live.

-Once the ARoP was coming into place these models were actually being prepared for use for players

Which ones? The new ones or the old ones? Yes, the new ones were being "prepared" in response to what the devs were told by the supposed "testers".

-Testers were noticing problems with the models not quite fitting into some places as intended

Who? and Where? I don't recall a single account of "not fitting in some places as intended" from ANY of the ARoP testers. At least no one in the Chosen of Drulkar guild on Blight said anything, and it comprised around 75% of the Dragons testing the ARoP. Biped buildings? Who gives a crap? We aren't supposed to fit in them anyway (but we do now, go figure ).

-An artist was assigned to update the ancient ancient models and make them fit better

The fact that someone was assigned to update them was never in dispute.

-Everyone on the development staff moved on, although the new body meshes still need work to make the heads fit right

Yeah, I know they moved on; the work wasn't completed, and it pissed off most of the Dragon players both because of the size nerf (with NO official explanation EVER given, btw) and the broken model issue.

No, really, that's what happened. If Jason or David or any of the developers wanted to screw with dragon players there would be much better ways to do it. Bring back the old "dragons descended from highly intelligent chickens" fun fact for example; it used to be listed on the old, old support site.

Except that the person I am referring to admitted as much to several people, including coworkers AND players. I don't care about jokes and such, but the general attitude of "not caring" and, worse, NEVER bothering to explain it for anyone's benefit sure as hell didn't make the players feel very good about the change. Request threads for clarification on this very forum went unanswered.

Seriously though, I can't see the old models even being considered. There are enough complaints from people having problems selecting objects under their dragon even when it is done on a per-poly basis and reverting is going to cause more clipping concerns with world objects. There isn't a new argument here about models, it's the old standby of dragons always ALWAYS wanting to be more powerful.

OMG! Being big makes me so uber! Give me a break. Since when did having a bigger model add any capability whatsoever to Dragon characters, hmmm? Why would you even bother to proffer such an inane assertion?

I've always had problems selecting stuff under me, even as an adult. I've accepted that as part of the price of playing a Dragon, which is offset by simply learning how to use selection keys instead of always depending on mouse-clicking for selection. Most places where any clipping happens are places that Dragons weren't meant to go in full form anyway. Plot vaults, biped guildhalls and other plot structures, biped town buildings, etc. Lairs are big enough for the old models, and even if they clip here and there, it doesn't negatively impact the client from a technical perspective.

It doesn't matter if they are ever considered again or not; the issue will never go away, and people won't ever forget the stupidity of it all.

That opinion has and always will be a part of the game. The developers try to, you know, make a /game/ with all that crap like checks and balances and dragons want their ego boosted. It's a unique aspect of the race that will never be satiated no matter what is done. From that, though, I can see how it could appear that the developers have it out against dragons, even though every developer understands that the sole reason Horizons has survived this long is because of the playable dragon feature. Nevermind the entirely dragon-only developments like lairs and lairshaper, developers are totally out to get you. If you see one acting frustrated, it may be because they realized long, long ago that it's impossible to please everyone and the weight of the world has crushed their spirits?

Oh please.

What part of this entire thing being a COSMETIC/AESTHETIC issue did you miss? There's no "balance" issues with bigger/smaller Dragons. PERIOD. There's NO SINGLE GAME MECHANIC which is affected by this change; it is PURELY perception. None of it abrogates other Dragon developments, but it sure as HELL does affect people's desire to pay/play. It affected their enjoyment of their characters, just as the bait-and-switch tactic with no explanation at the time it occurred did.

As for your hyperbole regarding the developers "out to get me" crap, stuff it. The point I made wasn't even in that category. The point was that the developer in question made decisions and took actions which, according to his attitude, probably were biased and unhelpful to the situation. No one expected them to please everyone, but they didn't even try to please people who asked the simplest of questions -- why?. Players were mad, and they simply didn't care.

[Amerelium]

1. The original models is the size of the ancient NPCs - it's what we were dreaming of as lil hatchies. Remember seing Vladmont on the FLoating Island for the first time?

2. The Original models aren't bugged. No neck slits. The size nerf was a shake-and-bake last minute thing done gods know why.

3. As for us obscuring the view for lessers; dragons are big, period. And with the original models, we are LESS in the way, because ground stompers get a clear view under our bellies (unless you're a half-giant).

4. As for us obscuring the view for the snack; DO WE CARE?!?

PS: We're hoping the originals will be put back as default. Until then, download them along with Cobal's texture fix (white teeth/claws)

[Pharcellus]

I just find it odd that the most complaints I see on these boards are from folks that play dragons that think they are still getting the raw end of the stick.

Dragons as player characters in Horizons have always gotten the "raw end of the stick"; from starting out as a broken and woefully incomplete race/class, to having no advancement opportunity beyond their level cap for the only 3 classes they could take. Yeah, it has improved; it doesn't change the fact that they still have issues and most likely always will for the remaining life of this game.

This ancient model thing has been hashed over and over already... ever since the ARoP testing was started... now... I don't know if you were here then.. and I don't care actually... The ancient sizes as they are now are plenty large.

..and it will be hashed over and over again long into the future, too. People just won't ever agree on it; there was no compromise; the "solution" was decided on in a vacuum and implemented without any significant input from the Dragon community. In fact, biped EX-players at the time had more input into it than any Dragon player did.

I was there; I was one of the primary testers. I saw it all unfold.

On a previous thread about Ancient dragon model sizes I also posted that if the difference desired was to be double each time... then just create a new model for the adult to be halfway sized between the juvenile and current ancient sizes...

That was bandied about at the time by the devs. As it is, the smallest "new" Ancients are difficult to discern from the largest "old" Adults. Thankfully, an Adult size reduction didn't happen, as it would have probably pushed more Dragon players over the edge into quitting.

[Casyle]

Well said Pharcellus!

I remember the first few days on MP and the Dragon Chat. I wasn't shocked that dragons were in a frenzy over this change, but a lot of bipeds were stupified as well.

Then for people like me, who've been around since HZ was a twinkle in the other David's eye, may rabid lice take him, it was an especially big blow. All the hype about how huge dragons would be, among other things. I really wish I still had that character height chart that showed a dragon absolutely towering over everyone else.....

[Guaran]

I also said no. Adult and ancient dragons are already too large to fit in with the other races. As in, they get in the way in Bris, in groups and other such places. If you want to use the old ancient models yourself, be my guest, but don't make me exercise my setscale button more than I already am.

Even when I'm playing my ped, I prefer the original sized models. Easier to navigate around.

[Guaran]

Perhaps I should just over write the adult and ancient models with the Juvenile models.. that way I don't have to deal with the Adult models either.

This seems like the obvious, logical solution compared to what we have now. For the small vocal MINORITY who wants small dragons, let THEM install a mod which does just as you describe. Instead the majority has to "mod" the game back to the originally imagined Ancient Dragon.

BTW, the original ancient mod I put together includes Blue's bounding box fix, I think (Been a couple years now). If it does not then I can re-do the zip to include it. Too bad I don't have a download counter, I'm curious how many times its been downloaded.

The only problems I ever ran into, which were fixed by the bounding box change, was walking up to certain teleporters, where I would get stuck on the front edge. I also could not enter biped sized doors but that made sense.

[CallakDW]

I like my current size to be honest, though it was my understanding that they reduced ancient dragon size since I had my AROP. What bugs me the most is the neck flaw on the current adult and ancient model. I REAAALY want them to fix the darn gap. I'm not, however, arguing against puting the original ancient into the game, but either that, or they should fix the problems with the ones they are using now.

[Goriax]

Well, I see we're back to the same old same old.

I'm trying to remember how long ago the AROP came into being. I think it's been about 2 years.

And people are STILL complaining.

If they wanted to screw over dragons they wouldn't have put in lairs etc.

Face it, for reasons which seemed good to them they decided that the game as a whole would be better served if they reduced the size of ancient player character dragons. While I wasn't too thrilled with that decision it is now ancient (pun intended) history. You might not agree with them, you may even have a few good points; but a decision had to be made. No matter which way they went on this they would have upset some players. I REALLY doubt it's going to be changed. It's time to move on.

Ancient dragons are still the largest player character race BY FAR of ANY MMORPG I know of. Nothing else is even remotely close.

I've managed just fine for the last 2 years in my current size. I think I can muddle through just fine as-is. If you MUST be bigger you can always download the original model. But they had their reasons and, while I'm not completely happy with them it's WAY past time to move on.

Basic rule of life: not everything is going to go the way you would like it to go but you've got to move on anyway.

Sheeze. It's been two freaking years. Give it a rest already.

[Casyle]

I think I can muddle through just fine as-is. If you MUST be bigger you can always download the original model.

We shouldn't have to.

But they had their reasons and, while I'm not completely happy with them it's WAY past time to move on.

And these reasons were..... what? I don't recall them giving any good reason except a very vague "some players complained". Funny, since I've only seen a very few players against it, like Fratricide, and their reasons have been less than bad. Usually just trolling.

Sheeze. It's been two freaking years. Give it a rest already.

Take your own advice. Some of us aren't the type to bend over and get screwed for no good reason.

We got hyped, we got height charts, we got all sorts of crap, then suddenly the model is changed, and they NEVER answered numerous questions as to WHY. *Except for the initial, vaque, we got some complaints*

When I'm lead along to believe I'll get something, I expect it, not less. And if I get less, there'd better be a dang good reason other than "we got some complaints".

This is the 3rd time I've seen a vote on this, and, again, the majority wanted the original model. *One was ingame via MP.*

I'm sick of tired of the vocal MINORITY getting their way.

[Pharcellus]

Sheeze. It's been two freaking years. Give it a rest already.

We're only doing it to annoy you, G.

[Casyle]

Sorry for bieng so rude, I was in a really bad mood and that post made it worse.

Now that Virtrium is in-charge I think it makes sense to ask them to change it back.

I mean, it's not just cosmetic as has been noted, it would help bipeds as well.

I don't know about other dragons, but I've always been ready to be unable to enter biped dwellings. That's no big deal to me.

[Fratricide]

Yay.. because I disagree with your wanting to have monstrous models for the ancient folks I am now a troll... <cheers for himself>

If I actually want to hear someone harp over and over about the same thing... Ill listen to my wife... As of yet you haven't explained a really good reason why the ancient models should revert back to their "Tested" size... no one said that just because it was tested on blight it has to arrive to the live servers Identical to the way it was tested. Perhaps they felt that because the model was so large and sometimes had issues entering portals and other places... that it was better off to create a smaller model. Who knows.. I care not why it was done... it was done so give it a rest already, there are other things more important to adjust then the F'n models that you can do yourself.

I can think of a few right off the bat...
1) Unity players want (deserve) their characters back.
2) Confectioner school really needs to be finished...
3) Surely a plot reclamation should happen soon.
4) I'd personally like to see some spawn points for say... Gems..
5) the Monk school (and it's derivatives) need a tad bit of work to make them a viable class in the game.

I'm sure that there are a few Dragon specific issues that might need to be addressed... like the current adult and ancient models need some tweeking so that they look right. Perhaps the dragons that wish to play more of a magic user role could do for some boosted spells, or even a couple new ones. "Needing" to have the tested models on the live shards is not "needed" though apparently some folks feel they will die if it is not done.

[Vahrokh]

1) Unity players want (deserve) their characters back.

It's a modification applied in about 3 minutes, don't inflate this like it's a NASA affair.

Even if I am an Unity player, I'll gladly wait a bit more to play a restored size ancient.

We got Kuthit form for those "oh so nasty" issues at going around. I have used Kuthit like 10 minutes in my years long whole life, maybe being bigger would give an incentive to it.

Or at least, fix the slits in the downscaled graphics, but this would take an artist to modify the 3d models and _that_ would be time and money consuming.
So it's faster to just undo the downscale.

Another company that did not learn not to fix what works and makes players (74%) happy.