promises

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

1) Bringing over the Unity characters is not a simple thing to do. Like most things of this importance, it's a very serious job that must be done pretty close to perfect.

2) We haven't forgotten about Unity players. There should be no doubt that we would like to see Unity players brought over.

3) We haven't forgotten about Unity players. We're looking into options right now and as soon as we have a solid plan, we'll present our ideas to the community for feedback.

4) "how come we have not done anything for Unity players" - but I think you all get the idea that it's a priority and they're working on it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

as Horizons CS said...

when we know what we are going to do we will communicate they said...
so they STILL dont know what they are going to do?

they call themselves devs? any real dev would have merged 10 databases by now.... even if they are hard legacy dbs.
or are they working part-time just 2 hours a week?

or the last option but not very unlikely: they tricked everyone by saying they care but actually dont care at all....

its a priority they say! what they do with priorities? a priority means: finished next year? its allready 2 months a priority.. in most companies priority means finished today or at least this week!

if they really cared and give ''real'' priority to it, the work would be done allready many times over

some say that VI didnt promise anything...maby they are right, but sure some false hopes where raised.

well cant blame them... if they are to succeed as a company they should ignore all complaints and just exploit customers and try to get them in the easyest way possible... and what works better then false hope...

funny though that many play this game because they believe Horizons is somthing diffrent.

Ironic.

I myself believed it once, but came to the conclusion it was not the devs not the game, but the players in it that gave this feeling...

this is not a call to the devs to do anything (it wouldnt help) but just my ideas, checking back after serveral weeks to find that not only Horizons CS's stated plans, but even all forum chatter about importing unity has died out.

[/end of sarcastic complaints because my hope was raised and broken]

[pevil2000]

I think the reason its taking so long is (if they are nice and do care and aren't really EI in disguise ) that the Unity database was slightly different format or something to the US ones, so it all needs converting as well as importing. Plus they're a small team. Plus if it was me doing it, and I like to think I have some sense, I wouldn't want to work exclusively on bringing over Unity chars at risk that the US customers (who are definately paying atm and therefore, from a profit point of view, more 'important' than the "we'll pay and maybe have already paid once you transfer" european customers) would then get annoyed because they had no updates/maintenance/whatever and started to leave. Plus EI screwed quite a bit of stuff up that needs sorting, and I daresay there's some figuring out of what to do (i.e. do they work out everyones value of lairs/plots/items and just throw us all in there with char + skills + cash, do they try to give us novians + items, do we get all items... etc etc). Coding isn't the easiest of things, and neither is customer service (don't get me started on customers lol) and they have to get a balance between the two, particularly as the community IS so disillusioned.

On the pessimistic side of things, again they may see the US players as more important, plus the unity lot have been very patient so far and they possibly think its ok to make us wait longer (nearly a year now... ) and that we understand, and lets face it after EI, virtually anyone will love them.

But they brought Blight back, and for that and that alone I have faith in them. They could have left that dead but they didn't. And that was probably far easier to bring back (no doubt it was simply a case of switching the server back on and rebooting it).

This dragon will continue to hang on and see... but if I find something else more fun in the meantime (unlikely unless Darkfall is ever released) then they will indeed lose out on one sub.

[Nanain]

LOL EU players have been patient far longer than 1 yr. Try 3.

[gopher65]

I'm kinda hoping that they don't rush it, and then accidently overwrite my character on Chaos when parts of the database are merged. So poohpooh to those who want them to rush:P. This isn't some minor patch that can be screwed up and redone a dozen times *cough*masterspoolform*cough*. If this one gets messed up, there would be serious consequences.

Also, keep in mind that they are NOT "just" merging the databases (which is a huge job in and of itself, if you remember the shard merge from years ago). In fact, they aren't merging the databases at all. As far as I can tell they are setting up a system which will parse copied parts of the unity database on demand (when a Unity player signs up), then add those select parts of the unity database to either Chaos or Order, whichever one a Unity player chooses. Then it will need to parse their plot data, convert it into novians, and stick it in their vault. All without making an error, cause if an error gets made then someone's vault and inventory disappears, or their equipped equipment is all gone. Even a single error in a single person's character would be deadly to the company's rep.

So I kinda expect this to take a long long time to do properly, since the entire process has to be absolutely and entirely error free (remember shard merge? Ahahahaha, what a joke that was. *** there were a lot of bugs introduced then. IMO the loss of character data during merge was the main reason there were so many cancellations at that time).

[Velea]

I don't think the chat has died down at all, Thang. You yourself have used the word "Unity" enough times today that I think I should start charging. And there are many other players who once played on Unity who have started over, but still keep the hope alive that their characters from Unity can be brought over. In the mean time, though, they've decided to come get to know those playing on Chaos, Order, and some even Blight and become part of those communities.

I do realize that it is hard to wait. But hopefully the Unity players, yourself included, can respect the staff at Virtrium for not making promises. As players, we can't possibly know what sort of hurdles might be in their way, from legal to technical, that are causing delays. We also can't know the number of hours spent on this project compared to others, or what else in their lives might take precedence over this issue. While I know many will say there is no reason to do so, I'd hope that you can trust the Virtrium team enough to know that when they say they are working on it, they truly are. I guess what I'm saying here is:

Please cut them a break. Don't be sarcastic, nasty, mean, or whiney when asking for updates. That doesn't accomplish anything. Think about who you'd rather be working for. Someone who appreciates what you have done, or constantly criticizes you for those things which you haven't?

[Shirewood]

I agree with everything you've said Velea.


It would be nice though, if VI reads this thread, for them to just give a quick update w/o making any open promises .. etc. You Unity players have waited much to long to play your toons again. I do hope that someday soon you all will be with us on Chaos. I've read your posts for so long.. it would be awesome to "meet" you in game.

[Steelclaw]

The problem stems from the gerbils they got from Unity: they keep wanting to run on the left side of the wheel and are tripping up the NA ones that run on the right side.

Seriously...

There are multiple priorities. Just because an item is a priority does not mean it is top priority.

Also, realize that not everyone at vi is a database/sim programmer. Combined with the above point, this means you'll see stuff happening (like new content) that has nothing to do with Unity. I mean... why hold back the artists and designers when their work has no dependencies on a Unity migration? It's not like they could be working on the database.

I could say "Just give them time!", but I won't. That's up to you to decide. I will say that they are the most qualified people to be running HZ right now, and unlike EI, I have no doubt that it is within their abilities to work out and implement some sort of solution for Unity players.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

I don't think the chat has died down at all, Thang. You yourself have used the word "Unity" enough times today that I think I should start charging. And there are many other players who once played on Unity who have started over, but still keep the hope alive that their characters from Unity can be brought over. In the mean time, though, they've decided to come get to know those playing on Chaos, Order, and some even Blight and become part of those communities.

I do realize that it is hard to wait. But hopefully the Unity players, yourself included, can respect the staff at Virtrium for not making promises. As players, we can't possibly know what sort of hurdles might be in their way, from legal to technical, that are causing delays. We also can't know the number of hours spent on this project compared to others, or what else in their lives might take precedence over this issue. While I know many will say there is no reason to do so, I'd hope that you can trust the Virtrium team enough to know that when they say they are working on it, they truly are. I guess what I'm saying here is:

Please cut them a break. Don't be sarcastic, nasty, mean, or whiney when asking for updates. That doesn't accomplish anything. Think about who you'd rather be working for. Someone who appreciates what you have done, or constantly criticizes you for those things which you haven't?

legal, not an issue, its being taken care of... even luca said they would send the database for free again on request..

technical, merging a db is alot of work for 1 person... but not somthing that should take more then a few weeks if working on it 40 hrs a week..
its clear the priority on this isnt that high considering the time allready being elapsed. even if it was just 1 person just working 20 hrs a week on it

about not making promises i respect that..
its the right way to go, although my 1 focus 2 months ago was: unity will be next after billing (according to VI)

[Velea]

With all due respect, you can't know that. You can't know that "legal has been taken care of", nor can you know how long it takes to combine the Unity DB with the existing ones, no matter what your job or experiences in real life might be.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Walk a mile in their shoes... and all that.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

Also, realize that not everyone at vi is a database/sim programmer. Combined with the above point, this means you'll see stuff happening (like new content)

hm yes thats very true..

although the designers -could- work on a Son of Gigaroth-sized Pumpkin Pie to welcome back us old Unity players, if they really wanted us that bad.. but ofc its just us who invested thousands or thens-of-thousands of hours of playing time who want it that bad..

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

technical, merging a db is alot of work for 1 person... but not somthing that should take more then a few weeks if working on it 40 hrs a week..

We know nothing on the status of the database from Unity. Even if Virtrium was handed all the characters Unity used a different billing solution than Tulga and who knows how the accounts are set up and linked. Given the strained relationship between Tulga and GN there has to be more to the operation than simply "merging" the data. Look at it from this perspective. The Unity database is full of immediately accessible income to Virtrium, and they know this. It's not fair to point blame and accuse Vitrium of not delivering a system to bring over Unity characters to Chaos or Order when you have no idea as to the level of work involved. There's never a generic ETA for tasks like this, you have two different and very large sets of data that somehow need to learn to love each other.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

With all due respect, you can't know that. You can't know that "legal has been taken care of", nor can you know how long it takes to combine the Unity DB with the existing ones, no matter what your job or experiences in real life might be.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Walk a mile in their shoes... and all that.

i saw Luca from Game Network (the EU server owners) even posting here he would be happy to send the DB for free... after sending emails to VI about it (without response?)

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

We know nothing on the status of the database from Unity. Even if Virtrium was handed all the characters Unity used a different billing solution than Tulga and who knows how the accounts are set up and linked. Given the strained relationship between Tulga and GN there has to be more to the operation than simply "merging" the data. Look at it from this perspective. The Unity database is full of immediately accessible income to Virtrium, and they know this. It's not fair to point blame and accuse Vitrium of not delivering a system to bring over Unity characters to Chaos or Order when you have no idea as to the level of work involved. There's never a generic ETA for tasks like this, you have two different and very large sets of data that somehow need to learn to love each other.

not that diffrent... we where 1 patch behind before EI took over and it was a client patch only! not a database tables patch..
those database tables should be indentical..
as for the billing system.. our unity accounts/logins are allready billable on the U.S. servers.. just our characters are missing on it..

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

not that diffrent... we where 1 patch behind before EI took over and it was a client patch only! not a database tables patch..
those database tables should be indentical..
as for the billing system.. our unity accounts/logins are allready billable on the U.S. servers.. just our characters are missing on it..

Unity was much farther behind than you think, and importing a username/login is in no way the same as importing your old account.

Virtrium has said several times that they are working on this, but again they've also made it clear that they will not go around making promises as no one can predict the future or any inconsistencies that may arise. There's also the matter of setting everything up for players to select where to import their character, modifying the character copy scripts to work for production instead of blight, tying all of this together with the new accounts database, and so on. What I'm trying to say is that this is worth doing right rather than fast, and you aren't going to get a "character transfers 1 month from now" out of Virtrium until they are absolutely certain the process is bulletproof.

It's frustrating, I agree, but things would be much worse if Virtrium came out and gave a date, ran into unforeseen problems, and had to deal with the fallout associated. Bottom line is that it's going to happen, is a priority, and is in the best interests of both Virtrium and the Unity players that it gets done. There's nothing that needs to be said until it is nearing completion.

[pevil2000]

LOL EU players have been patient far longer than 1 yr. Try 3.

I meant without a char As far as I see it, as long as we have regular updates I can wait (for a reasonable amount of time). I don't like it if they go quiet; thats what EI did after a while. Even if all we get is once a week "yeah we're still working on it... ran into some probs... sorry" its better than just saying nothing

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

Unity was much farther behind than you think, and importing a username/login is in no way the same as importing your old account.

Virtrium has said several times that they are working on this, but again they've also made it clear that they will not go around making promises as no one can predict the future or any inconsistencies that may arise. There's also the matter of setting everything up for players to select where to import their character, modifying the character copy scripts to work for production instead of blight, tying all of this together with the new accounts database, and so on. What I'm trying to say is that this is worth doing right rather than fast, and you aren't going to get a "character transfers 1 month from now" out of Virtrium until they are absolutely certain the process is bulletproof.

It's frustrating, I agree, but things would be much worse if Virtrium came out and gave a date, ran into unforeseen problems, and had to deal with the fallout associated. Bottom line is that it's going to happen, is a priority, and is in the best interests of both Virtrium and the Unity players that it gets done. There's nothing that needs to be said until it is nearing completion.

did they ever try to merge a copy of the US and EU db?
in a test environment?
and if so why not tell us the results of it?
if would be fair right?

somthing like "we merged the 2 in a test environment but the results where everyone turning out as mobs and the mobs running around buying tech resources from nadia" or somthing like this

for all we know they are not even trying...

a possitive communication would be to keep us posted about the progress, it would be far better then silence..

[Deth]

They probably not as they have no server to try to merge them on. All the servers they have are being used for something I would guess.

[Fratricide]

From my understanding.. the databases haven't been identical since shortly after release... GN had the capability of modifying their version of the database however they felt made it capable of managing the data better within the scope of the server being able to still access it. How it was changed about can only be known by those that have access to the information. Did the GN database have some changes that made it run better/worse then did the US version... I don't know.. but there were substantial enough differences that it is taking longer then perhaps expected to get the information to merge nicely to the US versions of the Database.

As for the time table... I imagine you can complain if they do the plot reclamation happens before you can move your character(s) over to the US shards as the time table did specify that EU folks would have the transfer capable before they reclaimed plots.

No one said they wouldn't continue progressing the game before they enabled EU folks to play here with their old characters... go back and review their goals they set out when they first stated their "to do" list.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

No one said they wouldn't continue progressing the game before they enabled EU folks to play here with their old characters... go back and review their goals they set out when they first stated their "to do" list.

yeah thats fair ofc, cant blame them, as they are a company who need to survive as well

From my understanding.. the databases haven't been identical since shortly after release...

this is not true, it was set so that the tables where identical to the U.S. servers, so we could recieve all the U.S. updates as well...

ofc the data within those tables they could alter by will, this has nothing to do with the merge ofcourse

[Sigi]

I want to believe they are working on it (repeat like 100 times)
On the other hand I seriously doubt if they themselves believe it will ever happen.
I feel like a donkey walking after a carrot dangling in front of it's nose but attached at itself. Never reachable...