Dev's, drop everything you are doing.

[Cobal]

Dev's, just drop everything your are doing and concentrate 100% on the Unity situation.

Just stop developing new stuff and stop bug fixing because NOTHING in Horizons is more important then restoring Unity or moving it's characters to order/chaos.

No need to waste more then two sentences on this since it is going to be ignored/deleted anyway.

[Vaz]

I'd guess there's only a couple people working for Virtrium have the expertise to work on the Unity stuff. Modelers, artists, coders who are unfamiliar with whatever database software(s) Unity and the other shards use, etcetera can't help it. There's no reason to have them drop everything and sit on their hands while the few who can help Unity do their thing.

Did you have to add the classic "this is going to be deleted" drama line?

[Velea]

This thread was moved rather than being deleted because there's no violation of forum rules that would require it to have been deleted. I probably should have moved it to rants, because it is more of a rant than a serious request for information, but I'd like to use the thread as a "teaching moment" if I may.

It has been stated on many threads at different times that there are different teams working on various aspects of the game.

I've already implied, though this is the first time I think I've come right out and said, that I did most of the Gnomekindle content. And I believe LO has said he's responsible the majority of the other quests. And, of course, Amon did most of the rest. Our art team did the art work from designing to creating the items. Even the client changes aren't done by the same people who do the database work.

Are you really asking to have those who have no experience what so ever working with your Unity characters, who don't know a thing about databases, know very little about coding, and know even less about how the servers interact with one another to stop everything so that the appearance, at least, is that everyone is working on the Unity transfer? The problems, issues and bugs that would result are not what you, or anyone else, could possibly want.

I realize that how I'm saying what I've said isn't very politic. I'm not mincing my words and trying to be nice here. Blunt, direct... yes, those. But I wanted to make it very clear why this thread was moved off the general forum. As I said, I should probably just move it to rants rather than here on the Unity forum.

And Xoshara is basically correct, there is no reason what so ever to "challenge" the moderators with the "this is going to be ignored/deleted" line. Menkure and I are very consistent and clear in our moderating, and you always have the option of sending a PM to Horizons CS if you are concerned about how we've moderated something in the past. However, challenging the moderators as you did would, on many forums, be considered moderator baiting, and we have very clear rules against that here.

In closing, let me state very clearly for anyone from Unity who does read this thread that I do not know the current status of the Unity database transfer, but I will try to find out. In the mean time, assume that no news means that it is still being worked on. From my own experiences with having done the work for this latest event, I know that every time I had to stop and provide a status update, I lost nearly twice as long as it took to give the status update itself to get back into the right mindset to be being productive again. So I don't like to stop our database experts from working very often just to give an update when they've already said that it will be ready when it's ready. Hopefully anyone who has worked with computers in any fashion will understand the honesty in that statement. Sometimes you really just don't know how long a project will take.

[Cobal]

No.

I am quite done with waiting and shutting up.
I am quite aware of your manpower problems.

It is NOT an excuse!
Get our Unity characters back right now!
It's a bloody SQL database, It can't possiby be simpler.

You know, maybe hire external help or something?

I've already implied, though this is the first time I think I've come right out and said, that I did most of the Gnomekindle content. And I believe LO has said he's responsible the majority of the other quests. And, of course, Amon did most of the rest. Our art team did the art work from designing to creating the items. Even the client changes aren't done by the same people who do the database work.

How is this an excuse for still not having copied the character data?

You know what,maybe if this stuff is soooooo difficult (wich I doubt) maybe you should tell us what is difficult about it.
Give us some details on what exactly is this database issue.
There are lot's of folks with a lot of DB experience here, maybe we can give you some insights in how to handle transact code.
I bet me and Vahrok would be able to plan the conversion in a week, the actual jobs may take some time.

Oh and about your moderation, you (or another mod) deleted the post I made in this thread:
http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...t=16412&page=5

And Xoshara is basically correct, there is no reason what so ever to "challenge" the moderators with the "this is going to be ignored/deleted" line. Menkure and I are very consistent and clear in our moderating, and you always have the option of sending a PM to Horizons CS if you are concerned about how we've moderated something in the past. However, challenging the moderators as you did would, on many forums, be considered moderator baiting, and we have very clear rules against that here.

There is, in fact, a very good reason to do so.
Or have you forgotten the past of these boards?
Anyway it happened as I predicted and was moved to the Unity forum so that it can be forgotten and ignored.
Just like Peaches and all the other mod's did.

In closing, let me state very clearly for anyone from Unity who does read this thread that I do not know the current status of the Unity database transfer, but I will try to find out.

Any good reason why this is not common knowledge within vitrium?

In the mean time, assume that no news means that it is still being worked on.

No, wrong.
No news means "crap we can't do it but want to keep the carrot out there in hopes that those suckers subscribe anyway, then after a year we will tell them it is not possible and by that time they are invested in their new characters so much that they STILL won't leave!"

From my own experiences with having done the work for this latest event, I know that every time I had to stop and provide a status update, I lost nearly twice as long as it took to give the status update itself to get back into the right mindset to be being productive again. So I don't like to stop our database experts from working very often just to give an update when they've already said that it will be ready when it's ready. Hopefully anyone who has worked with computers in any fashion will understand the honesty in that statement. Sometimes you really just don't know how long a project will take.

The statement "it's ready when it's ready" is not good enough.

If the DB people need time to get in the right frame of mind for db work after having done a report then they are unfit to be DBA's.
I sincerely do NOT understand the honesty in that statement as there is none!
I have been working with computers for ages and ages and in all that time I have never heard about having to switch gears from "normal" to "IT-worker" mode.
Real IT folk don't have to switch gears, they work on intuition and experience.
those that can't do IT on intuition never grow further then the helpdesk.
Who are you trying to kid here?

[edit]
Hey dev's here's a cookie:
If you give us our characters back before the end of the year I'll subscribe for a year.
[/edit]

[Sibbe]

i also offered help with the unity db (by email) but havent heard anything back yet...

[Kepesk]

Um, Cobal, I might be getting into a bit of trouble for saying this, but you're being kind of a jerk. I mean, I know you're upset about the unity characters and all, and I would be too. However, working in IT myself, I see nothing but truth in Velea's statement. There isn't any way you can get a graphics person or a server person to just drop everything and become a database person.

Heck, I was asked to do that once here at my work. I was asked to drop all of the FTP management I do and instead do the task distribution work for the guy next to me who was out for the day. I screwed things up horribly all day! Everyone forgave me because they knew it wasn't my normal job, but I don't think that really work in a sensitive database situation like this.

Even the comment about losing twice as much time getting back into the right frame of mind to be productive is nothing but truth. I know that every time I'm interrupted to do a task somewhere else, or give a status update, or because some system goes down, etc., it takes me forever to get all set up and in the flow to do good work once again. Every time.

Frankly, I have a little more respect for Velea and Vitrium after reading this. I can definitely relate to the situation they're in, and it sounds like they're handling it admirably, despite hardships.

So cut 'em a little slack, would ya?

[Cobal]

Um, Cobal, I might be getting into a bit of trouble for saying this, but you're being kind of a jerk.

The OP is a three sentence post.
Obviously I intended it as such.

However, working in IT myself... [snip] ...work in a sensitive database situation like this.

True, I am not disputing that.
My stint about good IT folk having intuition refers purly the nonsense that you need twice as long to get back into the right frame of mind, it does not refer to the fact that you cannot take a specialist of disipline Y and have him/her work in discipline X.

However...
The DBA's can write how-to's for the process of moving a character.
These could be used to instruct an external party (or for instructing a graphic artist for that matter).
That's how it's supossed to work folks, dev's make and document something so that operations can handle, manage and update as needed.
Like how IT is done in the rest of the world (including the industry)

Even the comment about losing twice as much time getting back into the right frame of mind to be productive is nothing but truth. I know that every time I'm interrupted to do a task somewhere else, or give a status update, or because some system goes down, etc., it takes me forever to get all set up and in the flow to do good work once again. Every time.

Real IT workers do not need to switch gears.
I'm not trying to be unrespectfull to you here by claiming such but with 15 years working professionally with computers I have not encountered real IT'rs to need to switch gear.
Only few that did need re-gearing time were all incomptent consultants and job-hoppers.
You probably know them too, the guys who's heart isn't really in IT, the guys who arent really IT'rs but are just churning out the cert's and diplo's without having any feeling for the material.

Im glad for you that your respect for them has gone up.
My respect of them has gone down as I can also relate to the problem they are in.
It is for that exact reason that I can NOT understand why solving a database problem can take so bloody long.
Without undeniable proof that hey have aliens living in their database, or a similair calamity that is out of their control, I will not cut them any slack.
Vitriums DBA's claim of "it's done when it's done" is proof that they are 1)Slackers, or 2)guys that just went into IT because there is money and the job doesnt involve heavy lifting, or 3) they are both.

Offcourse it is also possible that I am right when I say this:

No news means "crap we can't do it but want to keep the carrot out there in hopes that those suckers subscribe anyway, then after a year we will tell them it is not possible and by that time they are invested in their new characters so much that they STILL won't leave!"

But I still have enough respect for them to believe that they won't stoop so low.

[Ishar Xhaan]

I agree 100% with Cobal about the DB work and the lack of timeframe, and I work in IT also. Let's face it if it's too complex for them to copy a few characters ( can't say the DB is huge ) then they cant' do anything with the game or they just lied to have a nice image and never actually worked on it. This is neither wise nor respectable for the customers. A year is a long time without a server the longer the wait the less people will come back the less it is useful to restore the chars...

[Gorek]

Dev's, just drop everything your are doing and concentrate 100% on the Unity situation.

Just stop developing new stuff and stop bug fixing because NOTHING in Horizons is more important then restoring Unity or moving it's characters to order/chaos.

No need to waste more then two sentences on this since it is going to be ignored/deleted anyway.

Hi Cobal,

I agree with you 100%.

Customers/players keep Horizons going and fund it's delevopment.

I personally am amazed that there have been no plot auctions either manual or automatic.

Just glad I don't run an online game

I used to play on Ice just after beta and am really glad that I didn't return to the euro servers, don't get me wrong, great bunch of people but as time has told no support and now no characters.

[Justa Mirage]

Here's how I look at it:
It's like this: You have a bowl of problems, fixes, and "Things you can do" with the game.

Things like "getting it to work on Vista" and "Moving Unity Characters." to "Plot reclamation" are really high on their priority list, but are also probably the most difficult to implement. They probably ARE being worked on but it's not an easy process. Those won't solve themselves overnight, and I personally hope they are making progress for the unity players, as well as the Vista users.

however...

Those of us who ARE playing the game with XP or 2000 (or linux) and are patiently waiting for content, are getting what they can do right now, add content. Adding content is easier than the 3 above. It keeps the game from being stagnant while they work on the "big 3"

So instead of making the game another year of EI nothingness, they are attempting a mix and balance of what needs to be done. Content and quests in the game are needed to retain the existing customers while they hammer out the bigger problems that take more time.

And because we don't know just how big a task it is to recover a database from a foreign server and decipher the mess so that no one loses anything except their plot or lair (because if you import their character, you have to give them a plot token for their lost plot, and since Chaos has no plots to buy, no unity player would want to play on Chaos because there are no lairs to purchase. They would have to convert all of their properties to novians, and make sure that there were no missing items.)

I see that Plot reclamation will happen either at the same time as unity is moved over, to give the unity players a chance at recovering a lair / plot when / if they are migrated. For a small company, working volunteer, that's a lot of manhours (and yes, I am an IT tier 3 technician) and I watch database people bash their brains out trying to fix things.

[Cobal]

working volunteer,

Altough you probably already guessed this I feel the need to point out that I am aiming this at those at vitrium that get paid for their work and not at the volunteers.

[Shirewood]

I understand his frustration. He wants to play the game. If he's not happy with the "service" I suggest moving on with your life and find a new hobby/game to play. Sometimes the hardest part is making that leap. Such as it is when someone is quitting smoking. If I was a Unity player and felt as he does.. I would probably not approach it the same way. It's his post.. and he said what was on his mind and did stay within the rules of posting for the most part. If you leave the game and stop paying.. you hit them where it counts.. in their wallets. If a lot start to feel and respond as he has.. and leave.. then, less money for them.

As far as their updates to let you know how it's going.. I think they have been doing a terrible job thus far. If I was a Unity player.. yup.. They'd never see another penny from me. Is see absolutely no reason they can't take 5 minutes to say.. "Yes.. we have the database and we have done this and that.. we have successfully been able to recreate a character.. etc." Just hearing "we are working on it" as all they have to say is not enough in my mind. I see NO reason why they can't write 3 more sentences saying a little more about the progress.. and yes.. without "promising" anything.


So.. my grading would go as follows:

Reason to be upset by player: "A"
How it was posted:"D"
How VI has kept you informed: "D"

Again.. I think a post reiterating what was said 2 months ago is a bunch of crap to me. No reason a small post that takes 5 minutes to write.. wow.. 5 minutes.. and yes.. 5 more minutes to figure out where you left off at.. and go a little more in depth as to where you are and what you have been able to accomplish so far is not too much to ask for.

[Aamer Khan]

What if they have not been able to gain access to the DB yet due to legal issues, and are thus barred from stating anything publicly about it...

What should they do then Cobal?

What if they HAVE the DB, but due to lack of maintenance and updates it now needs a years worth of hand editing to make it work with the current Db structure?

Would you rather wait a year, or just create a new toon and keep playing on order or chaos?

It seems to me that they are doing the best they can, and now YOU have to decide if it's good enough for YOU. But please don't try to make ME feel the same way as you since I am not you.

Should you have more info to make better choices... Yes and I agree with Shirewood there. But YOU need to decide what you should do, but should not try and decide for others.

[Velea]

If you leave the game and stop paying.. you hit them where it counts.. in their wallets.

Shirewood, if you, or anyone else thinks that ANYONE working on Horizons is doing it for the money, you are sadly and sorely mistaken. You aren't going to "hit us where it counts" by stopping paying. Calling me a liar, and other things that have been said about me on this thread... that's uncalled for. And I'd like you to think for a moment about who you would rather put forth effort for. The person who calls you a liar and trashes you every single time you reach out and try to help, or the person who treats you with respect and shows appreciation for your efforts.

Kepesk, I thank you for understanding. I don't need, or even want, people to always agree with me. Cobal, you were not ignored, in your initial post or any further ones. However, your posts and others in this thread are in direct and clear violation of forum rules. I will not allow anyone, be it myself or others, to be called liars, or to be trashed the way people are trashing the developers in this thread. This is being moved to rants, and will be monitored VERY closely by Menkure and I over the next few days. If the posts in this thread cannot change their tone signifigantly and quickly, then the thread will be removed. No, not lock. No, not just moved. But totally deleted.

If, however, you are legitimately and truly asking "Please, could we have an update on what is happening with Unity?", I will be happy to continue to try and find out an answer. The choice is yours (plural yours being anyone who posts on this thread).

[Shirewood]

you took what I said wrong. Just stated that "we are working on it" could easily be expanded upon and by doing so would probably quiet most folks down. Vaele, I have always been supportive of all you have done for us since VI took the game back. search my posts and you'll find that what I say is true. I have sat here and listened to the Unity players for ages and they are family to me .. even though they were on another server. I simply stated that I feel the reporting of what is going on with their server/characters has been lacking and all I have seen reported is "we are working it". I don't see the harm in why even the slightest bit more can be said. So, that is not a stab at you. I have been very happy with the game lately. I just think this issue hasn't been addressed as well as it should be. And what's for proof?? look at all the posts.

AS for anything you buy and pay for.. If you don't like the service.. stop paying for it. maybe once the provider of such service wonders why they have no customers.. well.. then.. it's all about business. You either accept it for what it is and pay.. or you don't and move on. And that I said to any player of any game or any person that is unhappy with any service they are paying for.. not just this game.




-Regards

[Antonath]

If, however, you are legitimately and truly asking "Please, could we have an update on what is happening with Unity?", I will be happy to continue to try and find out an answer.

WE ARE!

We are, honestly, truely, ligitimately, swear to god, asking "Please, could we have an update on what is happening with Unity?"

<Bangs head against brick wall>

That's all we've been asking for since VI took over!

We LOVE this game! We want nothing more than to be able to play it again! Most of use are intending to drop subscriptions to other, more "modern" games, so we can come back to a game we love! A community we love! We just want to be able to come back with characters we poured our hearts and souls in to for years!

How can this not have gotten through?!?

Have we not made ourselves clear? Should we be organizing a written petition, signed in blood, to be delivered directly to VI's offices along with donuts and pizza?

We're not trying to insult, trash, piss off, denigrate, bait, or otherwise antagonize anyone that's giving their time and expertise to improving the game we LOVE. We just want to JOIN IN, with our characters!

GODS!

A highly pissed off Antonath

[Takora Drakan]

Yep we Unity players SUPPORT this game, else we would say to us, "screw it, move on, i go to another game". But we DIDN'T. We still wait PATIENTLY over a year to play again. Even some maked subs to show that they are willing to come back, to give VI money that they can make use of it to bring the Chars back.

But seems again that we should shut up an be quiet for another year and pay in advantage to see eventually our chars back. (caution zynical sentence)

[Velea]

Obviously I wasn't clear enough....

If you are asking for ANOTHER update, then just ask, don't rant.

And you are both still ranting.

[Antonath]

Obviously I wasn't clear enough....

If you are asking for ANOTHER update, then just ask, don't rant.

And you are both still ranting.

I'd say more, but I'm speechless.

[Velea]

I honestly am really confused by how this whole thread has gone since this morning when I posted.

I don't understand why you are speechless, Antonath. So I asked my husband "How did that post read", and it read wrong to him, so I apologize.

All I've been trying to say since my first post on this thread is this:

Unity players are not being ignored. I will try to get in touch with someone who can provide an update on what is going on. However, it is not because someone ranted. I am not going to respond to ranting. However, if someone raised a legitimate "Hey, it has been a while since we've had an update. Could we get an idea of whether a transfer from Unity to Chaos/Order is still possible, or if it is looking like this isn't going to happen, please? We're holding out hope here, but don't want it to be a false hope, and it has been weeks since we heard anything."... that's very different from this whole thread.

That's what I was saying when I said asked for "another update". Antonath, when you posted your long "We are" post, you still sounded as if you were upset that whomever (be it myself or someone else) had not seen that it has been a while since anything has been said about Unity. You questioned why it had not "gotten through", which implied to me that you thought Virtrium didn't understand what a priority this is. They get that. They've said many times that this is something they are working on.

However, I can see that it legitimately and truly has been a while since those who are just waiting for Unity characters have heard anything. And so that is why in my very first response on this thread, I said I would try to get an update. My whole point in further response was to point out that this rant thread is NOT, however, the way to go about getting anyone, myself included, to want to put forth the effort to answer the question. I will be blunt here. It would be like giving a child who is throwing a temper tantrum over a lollipop the lollipop he wants. All that's going to do is make the child throw a bigger, louder, longer tantrum the next time.

I hope this clarifies why I've said (in essence) "ask nicely next time". I don't want any answer that comes from Virtrium on what's happening with Unity to seem like it in response to someone having ranted, and behaved in the manner in which people have on this thread.

Is that clearer now?