Leaving in protest

[Creme]

this is the sort of approach you take for punishing someone for misbehaving badly. i mean, seriously? who the hell wants to play a game that treats them harshly? You aren't running a POW camp here, you don't need to be extra harsh for fear of appearing weak...

Ok, trying to understand something here. You're a big bad dragon that doesn't want to rely on bipeds for death point removal.

However, you wrack up a TON of death points working on your AROP, which seems like an incredibly high amount to gain in such an endeavor. Recklessly, IMO, as if death points are nothing.

So you're a big tough dragon, who shrugs and laughs in the face of death...BUT you're going to kick up this much fuss over the change in the duration of the death point timer. The offer to remove your death points was very nice. Insulting an honest response to review the penalty, based on feedback over time is NOT nice.

I see this as a "free of charge" DP removal system. Perhaps a dragon vendor with special dragon-type tiered death point removal system, at an extremely high cost (at least the cost of ambrosia @ T6), that took the same amount of downtime as a biped meal, with a similar cool down on it, would be a viable alternative.

how would this be -any- different than a biped going to a tavern keeper and eating a meal, except that it would not cost coin?

It is different in that it would be very quick to kill a herd of deer, perhaps a couple of minutes.

Eating them could be scaled to match the cooldown/recycle on foods, but would you really want to wait 20 minutes to eat another deer?

And you are correct on the coin part, there wouldn't be any "fee" if you mass slaughtered and ate a herd of deer.

I do think there should be a bloating penalty tacked on with perhaps sluggish fly speed after eating that much.

[Shur]

Ok, trying to understand something here. You're a big bad dragon that doesn't want to rely on bipeds for death point removal.

However, you wrack up a TON of death points working on your AROP, which seems like an incredibly high amount to gain in such an endeavor. Recklessly, IMO, as if death points are nothing.

So you're a big tough dragon, who shrugs and laughs in the face of death...BUT you're going to kick up this much fuss over the change in the duration of the death point timer. The offer to remove your death points was very nice. Insulting an honest response to review the penalty, based on feedback over time is NOT nice.

the above is a prime example of Argumentum ad Hominem, also not nice.

Edit to remove inappropriate analogy

First of all, since the only chefs are bipeds, the only food is biped-oriented. what does a dragon want with biped-sized bits of deer jerky? or a tossed salad?

Second, I play as a Lunus. I already find it irritating that much of the ARoP revolves around getting bipeds to do things for me, but am willing to accept it on the grounds that the goals of ARoP (story wise) are for the Greater Good. however i cannot and -will- not accept relying on bipeds for something as basic as food. I have always been a bit irked that dragons had to rely on bipeds for food, but since the death point system was not overly unforgiving, it could be overlooked without much impediment to game play. However, the massive increase in death point timing makes logging out until DP all fade thoroughly impractical.

It is different in that it would be very quick to kill a herd of deer, perhaps a couple of minutes.

Eating them could be scaled to match the cooldown/recycle on foods, but would you really want to wait 20 minutes to eat another deer?

And you are correct on the coin part, there wouldn't be any "fee" if you mass slaughtered and ate a herd of deer.

I do think there should be a bloating penalty tacked on with perhaps sluggish fly speed after eating that much.

it would also be very quick to run over to bristugo and pinch a couple foods from the tavern keeper, perhaps a couple of minutes, and eat them in the tavern for the bonus. i see nothing wrong with limiting consumption to, say, three to five animals in twenty-thirty minutes (I am a dragon after all, not exactly a neat and orderly eater)

And i know i'm correct on the coin part, it shouldn't cost a dragon a brass penny to hunt himself up a meal.

Perhaps we should also put a speed cap on a biped who has eaten recently? and if they try to use combat or craft abilities within thirty minutes of eating they should suffer debilitating cramps?

[Creme]

the above is a prime example of Argumentum ad Hominem, also not nice.

I wasn't the one that made the nice offer, nor am I trying to be nice; however it does seem that several people have offered to assist you, both game staff and players in game. You WERE eating purchased foods in the tavern and you voiced dissatisfaction with the amount of time removed. Later you voiced an issue with the fact that you would have to rely on bipeds to remove death points, but it seemed as though the brunt of your dissatisfaction lay in the duration of the timer, in that you would gain 3-5 death points, and then just play something else until they expired naturally. You purchased ambrosia previously. I don't know for certain if you would ONLY purchase said ambrosia off dragon vendors, but I do know that you checked both dragon and biped towns and to look for the ambrosia vendors when you were informed that they had been removed. It is possible, I cannot say for certain, that you would have purchased ambrosia off a tavern had any been available.

Inappropriate analogy removed as a quote as well

I interpret (and yes, MY interpretation) is that if you go out and accumulate 3-5 death points, then you are acting as a big bad dragon (i.e., lunus, disdaining healers, potions, etc. and taking on all challengers (mobs) with not so much regard to caution (stereotypical lunus behavior).

However, the massive increase in death point timing makes logging out until DP all fade thoroughly impractical.

Correct, so death points should be avoided, which would mean a more careful hunting style. If you gain death points due to gameplay issues, I would encourage you to put in a ticket and submit logs, because I don't feel that the penalty should be applied for deaths due to situations outside of your control; however, I would amend this to say that entering areas that you KNOW have delayed, massive pops of nasty mobs (i.e. satyr islands) should be approached with a healthy dose of caution.

it would also be very quick to run over to bristugo and pinch a couple foods from the tavern keeper, perhaps a couple of minutes, and eat them in the tavern for the bonus. i see nothing wrong with limiting consumption to, say, three to five animals in twenty-thirty minutes (I am a dragon after all, not exactly a neat and orderly eater)

I haven't timed the exact duration that one would have to sit in a tavern to remove a single death point; per the math on the times posted in other threads, however, if you ate 2 of the same full meal (4 dishes each), it would be almost 25 minutes, 9 minutes of which you would not be able to perform any other actions (except digestion).

And i know i'm correct on the coin part, it shouldn't cost a dragon a brass penny to hunt himself up a meal.

No, which is why it would not be a balanced situations, bipeds would have to purchase items to remove death points, why would dragons not have to expend coin in a similar endeavor?

Perhaps we should also put a speed cap on a biped who has eaten recently? and if they try to use combat or craft abilities within thirty minutes of eating they should suffer debilitating cramps?

You mentioned slaughtering and then feeding off a herd (or half a herd) of deer. That would be a lot more bulk than a 2 meals. 2 meals would equal 16 bulk.

If you calculated the yield on a half herd of deer, let's say 6 deer...at a bulk of 4 per meat, and approximately 50 meat per deer, that would be 1200 bulk.

That's a pretty drastic difference from the 16 bulk from 2 biped meals, hence the sluggish flight for some period of time.

It's not in your dimensional pocket...it's in your stomach.

As for your suggestion that dragons be able to kill and eat a herd of deer, or cows, couldn't bipeds do likewise?

If they implemented a system specifically for dragons, I would hope that the level of complexity/difficulty matched that of the confectioner school, which is well...rocket scientist levels of complexity.

[lightning claw]

Sad to see you go i feared that this would happen to warriors like our self 11 dp that must have ether been enith or a bad faf hunt ether way ... I warned that this would happen

[GalemThawn]

After reading multiple posts in multiple locations, I'm still unsure what the big fuss is all about.

11 dps at 28 hours = 308 hours (12.8 days) And that's without eating any food at all.

However, the Death Point doesn't affect your stats, it's the Death Point Penalty. I'm not sure how long it is at 11dp, but even at an hour penalty, you can play at full capacity again once that wears off.

To keep the penalty short, just stay in the lower number of Death Points. Surely you should average less than 1dp a day over the course of two weeks (or even a month). Averaging 1 per day will keep you lossing dps as you gain them, even without the use of food. It appears that a large majority of people have far less than 7 dps a week. I personally average about 2 Death Points or less a month, and as stated elsewhere, that's with 765 leves done almost completely solo.

[Shur]

I wasn't the one that made the nice offer, nor am I trying to be nice; however it does seem that several people have offered to assist you, both game staff and players in game.

and you continue to ignore my repeated statements that the death points i currently have are not an issue with me, Argumentum ad Nauseum.

You WERE eating purchased foods in the tavern and you voiced dissatisfaction with the amount of time removed.

I could count on one claw the number of times i have done so. in fact, i could count on two talons: once to see if it was any more efficient than ambrosia, once to whack the last two hours off a DP to get the counter to flip to the next one in order see if the new system really had rolled. don't make assumptions of other people's actions.

Later you voiced an issue with the fact that you would have to rely on bipeds to remove death points, but it seemed as though the brunt of your dissatisfaction lay in the duration of the timer

Naw? Really? i mean, it's not as if the sudden increase in the latter has -anything- at all to do with the former.

in that you would gain 3-5 death points, and then just play something else until they expired naturally.

seeing as how i do not like relying on bipeds for food, and ambrosia is (was) prohibitively expensive, i have few other choices.

You purchased ambrosia previously. I don't know for certain if you would ONLY purchase said ambrosia off dragon vendors

again, only a few times, and yeah, only in dralk. i think once i bought a piece off the bristugo tavern keep. but i also think i did so on my hatchling alt, and as he had yet to choose an alegience, he may be forgiven the transgression *rolls eyes*

but I do know that you checked both dragon and biped towns and to look for the ambrosia vendors when you were informed that they had been removed.

no you don't. in fact, you are most -thoroughly- incorrect. if you are going to continue this debate you are going to have to stop basing your arguments on arrogant assumptions.

It is possible, I cannot say for certain, that you would have purchased ambrosia off a tavern had any been available.

see above

I interpret (and yes, MY interpretation) is that if you go out and accumulate 3-5 death points, then you are acting as a big bad dragon (i.e., lunus, disdaining healers, potions, etc. and taking on all challengers (mobs) with not so much regard to caution (stereotypical lunus behavior).

interpret it however you want, you're entitled to your opinion and you may be wrong about it if it pleases you.

Correct, so death points should be avoided, which would mean a more careful hunting style.

oh? perhaps i should be careful of all those mobs that won't spawn until i after i land? or of all the lag they will bring with them?

If you gain death points due to gameplay issues, I would encourage you to put in a ticket and submit logs, because I don't feel that the penalty should be applied for deaths due to situations outside of your control; however, I would amend this to say that entering areas that you KNOW have delayed, massive pops of nasty mobs (i.e. satyr islands) should be approached with a healthy dose of caution.

oh, yeah, that's rich. i'll go submitting tickets for a known issue every other time i die. i'm sure that will help a -ton-

I haven't timed the exact duration that one would have to sit in a tavern to remove a single death point; per the math on the times posted in other threads, however, if you ate 2 of the same full meal (4 dishes each), it would be almost 25 minutes, 9 minutes of which you would not be able to perform any other actions (except digestion).

and your point is? I see no reason that similar timers may not be applied to dragons. like i said, it should take about 20-30 minutes to consume 3-5 animals. part of that time would be sitting down eating it, part of that time would be a cooldown between animals.

No, which is why it would not be a balanced situations, bipeds would have to purchase items to remove death points, why would dragons not have to expend coin in a similar endeavor?

in case you have never seen it said (which i find to be highly unlikely given your longevity):

Dragons and bipeds are not intended to cross compare.

this, in fact, bring up another issue with the current system: it forces a cross comparison because it forces a reliance, that flows in one direction, on a base level.

You mentioned slaughtering and then feeding off a herd (or half a herd) of deer. That would be a lot more bulk than a 2 meals. 2 meals would equal 16 bulk.

If you calculated the yield on a half herd of deer, let's say 6 deer...at a bulk of 4 per meat, and approximately 50 meat per deer, that would be 1200 bulk.

That's a pretty drastic difference from the 16 bulk from 2 biped meals, hence the sluggish flight for some period of time.

It's not in your dimensional pocket...it's in your stomach.

i mentioned a rough idea which needed refinement. don't patronize me.

As for your suggestion that dragons be able to kill and eat a herd of deer, or cows, couldn't bipeds do likewise?

sure, but it would have a minimal effect on death points, the biped races are ill-suited for consumption of raw meat (with the possible exception of saris and sslik)

If they implemented a system specifically for dragons, I would hope that the level of complexity/difficulty matched that of the confectioner school, which is well...rocket scientist levels of complexity.

again, you are trying to compare dragons with bipeds. Of course preparing bipeds meals is going to be considerably more complex that a dragon's meal: a dragon may go out and toss down a cow or two an call it a meal, whereas bipeds seem to tend to prefer their food prepared in rather complex fashions.


now, if you are done making petty attacks against points which have already been addressed, would you care to explain why you are so vehemently against the idea of dragons having their own system of food preparation?

[Scaleth Drakescale]

Personally, I love the idea of dragons having the ability to make food. I mean, bipeds are already so useful to dragons, why not make dragons useful to bipeds in some kind of way? Bipeds can heal us and buff us while we fight, they can cook food for us and make us potions, they can build taverns for us to eat in, ect ect. You get my point?

[Amecha]

I'm not going to say much, as you seem to already have your mind set on what you're going to do, so I won't argue with you on your decision, but I will state what I see.

It will take some getting used to, but we've had a lot thrown at us in the past couple years, and we will learn our way around this one as well. It's a shame you're not willing to give it a chance.

Your current DPs and those you may pick up due to issues out of your control have already been offered to be taken from you. Honestly, I don't believe that the new changes are a bad thing just because a couple people aren't willing to give it a try.

Sorry to see you leave, but it is your choice.

[Shur]

Your current DPs and those you may pick up due to issues out of your control have already been offered to be taken from you. Honestly, I don't believe that the new changes are a bad thing just because a couple people aren't willing to give it a try.

like i've said multiple times now: I do not care about the DPs i had at the roll-out of the patch.

I also do not care about DPs acquired through bugs, if they bother me badly enough i can always throw a ticket at them.

my issue here is that, as things stand right now, the revamp forces dragons to be reliant on bipeds. I have always been irked about dragons not being able to come up with their own food, but it had never been a serious problem as death points faded in a reasonable time, and the death penalty had a reasonable cap. however, the time increase means that adventurers need now to make use of the new food items, which was intended. however this also means that dragon adventurers are forced to rely on bipeds. this is not right. this is what i have a problem about. this is what i want fixed.

now, let me say it again, in large bold letters for those of you who missed it the first three times:

MY PROBLEM WITH THE CONFECTIONER REVAMP IS THAT IT FORCES DRAGONS TO RELY ON BIPEDS.
UNTIL THIS IS FIXED, I WILL NOT BE PLAYING HORIZONS.

i have laid out a basic suggestion of a solution here if anyone wishes to discuss potential solutions.

If anyone wishes to try and find more creative ways to either tell me A) that it is wrong to not force dragons to rely on bipeds, or B) i am <insert sly/snide insult here> for getting bent out of shape by this, i will be happy to continue to explain how they are incorrect, in this thread.

[Zexoin]

This is seriously getting on my nerves. Seriously.
Dragons should stop being so demanding and arrogant. Dragons have had the most love from the devs since launch. I talked tonight with an old timer who told me how hard it was to be a dragon in the early weeks of HZ.
But you always want everything served on a golden plate ; always more more more, me me me, I should be able to do everything by myself and easily, then why do you even bother to play a MMO, a game that's supposed to be based on player interactions ????

I should stop ranting, I'm getting bitter again.

[Shur]

This is seriously getting on my nerves. Seriously.
Dragons should stop being so demanding and arrogant. Dragons have had the most love from the devs since launch. I talked tonight with an old timer who told me how hard it was to be a dragon in the early weeks of HZ.
But you always want everything served on a golden plate ; always more more more, me me me, I should be able to do everything by myself and easily, then why do you even bother to play a MMO, a game that's supposed to be based on player interactions ????

i have no problem with relying on other dragons if that turns out to be a desirable solution, my beef is, for the nth time now, relying on bipeds

[Zexoin]

i have no problem with relying on other dragons if that turns out to be a desirable solution, my beef is, for the nth time now, relying on bipeds

I know, I can read...

I still don't see why this would be a problem.
I still think this is a stupid reaction.
You don't want to rely on bipeds ? Fine, don't buy their food, don't buy their hoard, don't get buffed, don't use their machines and silo, don't bring any healer in your hunts, ect, ect...

You'll be weakened, probably ; but it's your choice, now assume it.
you get too many DPs ? wait until the penalty fades and go craft a bit. Be more careful when you hunt. Adapt, like most of us will do...

But if you don't change your mind, cause dragon food won't be added anytime soon, they yeah, maybe leaving is a better (and easier) solution.

[Shur]

I know, I can read...
You don't want to rely on bipeds ? Fine, don't buy their food, don't buy their hoard, don't get buffed, don't use their machines and silo, don't bring any healer in your hunts, ect, ect...

i already don't.

[Nambroth]

I don't wish to debate, but I do have a few thoughts.

This is seriously getting on my nerves. Seriously.
Dragons should stop being so demanding and arrogant. Dragons have had the most love from the devs since launch. I talked tonight with an old timer who told me how hard it was to be a dragon in the early weeks of HZ.

To be devil's advocate... of course dragons have, and why not? This is the only MMO where you can play a dragon. I don't mean to be negative, but I'll venture that if any other MMO had offered dragons as a developed, playable race, Horizions may well have died a while ago. People come to this game for many reasons, but one of the bigger draws is to play a dragon. You can play a biped in every other kind of MMO out there, after all. Rick himself made the joke that Horizons is "Dragons and Crafting Online."
It DID suck in the old days, and they did work very hard to make dragons better. I do appreciate that, immensely. But it was also probably in their best interest.

I should be able to do everything by myself and easily, then why do you even bother to play a MMO, a game that's supposed to be based on player interactions ????

I should stop ranting, I'm getting bitter again.

Again, not to be contrary, but what is a MMORPG? Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Those that chose to play naka-hating Lunus dragons on any shard (but perhaps especially so on Order) aren't going to want to eat biped created food. The very lore of the game that we Roleplay by suggests that Lunus dragons wish to dominate the naka. They suffer for their decision not to get along with the peds, sure, but it's genuinely pretty irritating that dragons have no other recourse.

We can't make ambrosia anymore, nor can we purchase it from a dragon vendor. Mind you, it'd be one thing if they took the ambrosia away and left the DP system alone... or if they redid the DP system but left ambrosia alone. The two at once is where the insult seems to lie. I am not suggesting that something should be easy, but dragons should be given another recourse. Allow us to eat something such as a deer in a way that is not easy- it costs us hoard, or it only works once per hour. Something that is fair to all, but allows dragons to be self sufficient (or sufficient via help from other dragons) if need be.

I know I for one could easily live off the land and be just as healthy (or, in some cases, even more healthy) as one who eats prepared foods.

[Kala]

I cant even use food to get rid of the DP's as their is none available for my lvl yet as people seem to be either stockpiling it or just not able to make it yet.

If you're on Chaos, I can make all the food from the bought forms. (Still working on questing for forms.) It just takes some time. Please be patient with the confectioners who are able to make food of any tier...it really is far more time consuming now.

[Galdethriel]

If you're really stuck in your roleplay about this, why not either 1) have a biped friend roleplay as some sort of servant if they're willing or 2) make yourself a biped character? :P

For us that play greedy Helian dragons roleplay about this is easy as pie. XD (pun )

For example;

IC: "Syennaaaaaaaa, Galde wants food please." *lies down in front of the biped with her mouth open* <--- "insert food here!"

But for a staunch (is that the right word?) Lunus it'd be more like:

"Silence, you filth. Bring me something to eat, unless you want to become a meal yourself." *snorts distainfully*

Though I dunno how Shur actually acts, I'm feeling a bit chirpy today so I thought this might be a decent resolve if it's an entirely RP matter. X3

PS. (Shur Tugal? Isn't that like Shur'tugal as in Eragon?)

[Shur]

If you're really stuck in your roleplay about this, why not either 1) have a biped friend roleplay as some sort of servant if they're willing or 2) make yourself a biped character? :P

both of those solutions still only do it half way, i am still forced to rely on bipeds. for the second one i would have to waste time leveling a ped up to make t5 (soon t6, assuming it's implemented) food. that, i gather, requires not only the confectioner class, but probably also gathering and at least one, probably two, hunting classes.

PS. (Shur Tugal? Isn't that like Shur'tugal as in Eragon?)

that was the original inspiration, though i have been considering dropping 10 bucks for a name-change to make it ShuRugal

Again, not to be contrary, but what is a MMORPG? Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game. Those that chose to play naka-hating Lunus dragons on any shard (but perhaps especially so on Order) aren't going to want to eat biped created food. The very lore of the game that we Roleplay by suggests that Lunus dragons wish to dominate the naka. They suffer for their decision not to get along with the peds, sure, but it's genuinely pretty irritating that dragons have no other recourse.

thank you, this is exactly the point i have been trying to get across. (i just seem to have a problem keeping a cool and level had long enough to do so)

[lightning claw]

Hate to say i told you so but well maybe not hate .....
I all ready for casted that this would be a issue in my post Angry Warrior. Dragons are going to be forced to rely on bipeds making it Detrimental to Lunus Lore . Not to mention that it will destabilize our shake Economy in the game for warriors. (Ie Comps) i was toled to wait and see well i have waited and my forcasts where accurate.

[Amecha]

I still don't see why this would be a problem.
I still think this is a stupid reaction.

But if you don't change your mind, cause dragon food won't be added anytime soon, they yeah, maybe leaving is a better (and easier) solution.

I have to say I'm with you. Perhaps dragon-created food will come with time, but it will take time to add. It will involve many new skills and abilities, not to mention forms and whatnot. This doesn't happen overnight. Demanding that the new changes be changed or that dragon-created food be made available right now, without giving the new system time to work seems to be a very selfish and arrogant demand. The dragons I know don't have a big problem with this, and I know some pretty hard-core Lunus dragons.

[Deth]

Hate to say i told you so but well maybe not hate .....
I all ready for casted that this would be a issue in my post Angry Warrior. Dragons are going to be forced to rely on bipeds making it Detrimental to Lunus Lore . Not to mention that it will destabilize our shake Economy in the game for warriors. (Ie Comps) i was toled to wait and see well i have waited and my forcasts where accurate.

No they were not at least not in this case. You said:

Just garbed pach notes and boy am i saddened by this HUGE Nerf to hit this game


i conciser my self to be honest and Forthright
BAD MOVE VI BAD MOVE
For Following reasons
Faf Hunts gone
Arop hunts gone
Destabilizing the economies of the comp hunter
a End to the true warriors in the game
Epic hunts gone
with the increased in death points severity by teir Nidia now looks like a good alturnitive Rather than learning the combat system

openly addmited
Confec school needed to be tweaked majority it was a worthless school
you guys went from one extreme to the other now the true warriors will be less active
you mUST
RETHINK THE DEATH POINT/ PENELTY NERF

and his reason for leaving is:

now, let me say it again, in large bold letters for those of you who missed it the first three times:

MY PROBLEM WITH THE CONFECTIONER REVAMP IS THAT IT FORCES DRAGONS TO RELY ON BIPEDS.
UNTIL THIS IS FIXED, I WILL NOT BE PLAYING HORIZONS.

Which is not because of the DP change but indirectly due to the changes and because of the reliance of Dragons on Biped. Which could have been caused by any change that caused Dragons to have to rely even more on bipeds, Not because of DP at all, and he has said that repeatedly in the thread that the length of the DP does not bother him at all.