The battle for Epic mobs

[Lothir]

But...why?

The world.


May never know

[Justa Mirage]

Steelclaw.... for some reason you have a knack for words

:P goes out and gets a six pack, some pizza, and invites the neighbors over for some fun.

[Zexoin]

So sad to see this happening, tho it was predictible. I knew it was going to turn to a flame when I read the first post. You're beating a long-dead horse. I don't even see the point to open such threads on those boards, sinc they automatically turn into flaming ; it'd be much more efficient to send tickets with your suggestions via the support site.

[Creme]

The days of forming groups to take on an epic mob are over.

I am not trying to start/add to any flame wars either. You said you were in Beta, I started shortly after Beta. I was in game for Titus....he was an incredible mob and that was an incredible event. However, my memories of the Titus fight were quite clear. There were dozens upon dozens of players in the field. One group looted. No one else ever saw or knew what he dropped; there was no randoming.

When Valkor was first created, there were multiple groups out waiting for his spawn. Back then, there was no issue of whoever pulls first gets it or it's killstealing; rather, whichever group looted determined what they wanted to do with the loot.

Your example of having someone in your group loot and recall with it is disappointing. Loot rules should be clear and understood prior to grouping; however, it is up to the player(s) that initiate the group to set those rules, and then players have a chance to decide whether or not they wish to participate. WoW and some other games have very set rules on how loot is divided and a robust method of managing said distribution.

[Abraxes]

<<SNIP>>

<<DELETED BY MODERATOR>>

[Menkure]

*is getting this -->|| close to closing this thread*

END the snide attacks, right now.

I don't want to have to hand out any more refractions/warnings tonight. The next person who can't say anything nice will get this thread locked. I'm tired of it.

[GalemThawn]

According to Galem, the problem lies not with camping, not with the players, ... but with a lack of stupidly powerful epic gear?

Lack of the opportunity to be on equal footing.

Someone effectively said to 'try harder and get better'. This has more to do with just 'getting more skilled'. Both parties can use the same tactics and techniques, but if one group is at a pinnicle of power unobtainable by newer players (use of a BHM) then there is no way there will ever be fair competition.

With both groups using hotkeys to select and attack the mob, and with the effect of latency, it will always appear that each group got the first hit.

And I don't think we can count on voluntary niceness from everyone.

Also, when it come to epic mobs, it most certainly is a competitive action between groups, not cooperative.

[Abraxes]

Someone effectively said to 'try harder and get better'. This has more to do with just 'getting more skilled'. Both parties can use the same tactics and techniques, but if one group is at a pinnicle of power unobtainable by newer players (use of a BHM) then there is no way there will ever be fair competition.

With both groups using hotkeys to select and attack the mob, and with the effect of latency, it will always appear that each group got the first hit.

And I don't think we can count on voluntary niceness from everyone.

Also, when it come to epic mobs, it most certainly is a competitive action between groups, not cooperative.

I was *not* around when the "BHM" event was running. Some how, some way, I got a hold of a boar hide mask. I've bought and sold multiple of them myself also. So that's a very invalid point to say that they are "unobtainable" by new players.

[Silverblaze]

I'm not sure the BHM arguement is valid...BUT

I agree on the other points 100%.

Not everyone wants a ten person group or multiple groups the chance of getting the loot drops with each person (not toons due to dual boxing)

at 10 people the number is 10% chance of loot and it goes down from there.

I've seen the *nicest* people (I can't stress that enough) on chaos leave friends out of groups for the coveted uber-1337 lootz.

People who really don't care about loot and just wanna have fun, have to understand not everyone plays that way.

People who think the game isnt competitive need to get the game changed then...at present...the way the mobs are set up...breeds competition.

Simple enough no?

I also forsee a mail bag full of tickets about kill steals in the future. I hope Im not the only one dreading that. Surely CS is looking at this as childish at present. As Customer Service however, they can't confirm nor deny that.

I see the solution as lying in the way loot works and the mobs spawn.

and seriously, BHM's dont makehte world go round...yeah they are the most awesome of the aweome rares, but in the end, they really are fluff.

[Steelclaw]

Lack of the opportunity to be on equal footing.

I'm not convinced that the possesion of a Boar's Hide Mask (or equivalent) and practice playing a character's build would be sufficient to create an opportunity for equal footing. Well, actually, it depends on your idea of equal footing. Theres "player A can do as much damage as player B in 5 seconds" and "player A has the same chance of getting loot as player B". There's a small difference between the two, the latter. while being more 'fair', is more complex than just adding powerful items. If by equal footing, you mean the former... well, that's just enabling a big cvffvat match.

And I don't think we can count on voluntary niceness from everyone.

Yeah, counting on voluntary niceness doesn't have consistent results, but it is the least complicated of the solutions.

All this penc would go away if the competing groups just said "Ya know, everyone here put forth an effort so they should be in on the roll too.".

[gopher65]

Yeah, counting on voluntary niceness doesn't have consistent results, but it is the least complicated of the solutions.

I've said the same thing. But, as I've also said, if people were willing to put this aside then we wouldn't be here having this conversation.
________________________________________________

And quite frankly, even if these too groups put this aside, eventually some other group will come along and do the same thing. As long as the game mechanics allow this sort of thing to take place, it will. In a game centred around PvP I'm ALL FOR this type of competition (not camping though. That's always boring). This is not such a game. There is no PvP or GvG or RvR here. If I can't kill another player when they tick me off(EVE), then this kind of competition cannot take place. In those games PvP acts as a kind of dispute resolution system. Not a fair resolution system by any means, but a resolution system none-the-less. Disputes end. Here that doesn't happen, so any kind of competition whatsoever just causes people to stew indefinitely. There is no way to resolve disputes of this nature.

Either go all co-op or all competitive. You have to choose one direction or the other. There is no middle ground. Either is fine, but you can't realistically do both without the people of a game turning into a bunch of WoW kiddies or, similarly, Chaos players:P.
________________________________________________

Let me rephrase all that rambling in a simple fashion: The game rubs off on the players, not the other way around. Each game I've played has its playstyle dictated by the game mechanics, not by the players. People are people. The only thing that changes are what rules we are forced to follow.

[GalemThawn]

I think that in my initial post I missed a point that I should have stated and stated stronger.

The base, the very core, of these problems are really not the players, or even the gear as I may have ephasized too much. The real problem is the game mechanics that allow the conditions. From what I've read, there are others who have said as much, just in different words.

And being game mechanics, this is something that players can not fix. Other than depending on everyone to be 'nice' and share, this is a problem that can only be resolved by the developers. And we don't need bandaids, we need a real and lasting solution, because as also stated, even if these groups made nice and shared, other groups would eventually come along and we'd be right back in the same place.

What is that solution?
I don't know for sure. But it's not calling each other names, throwing out insults, or saying "we are just better than you and you're no good because you can't play at our level of skill". "Shut up" isn't the solution. Giving up on certain aspects of the game isn't a good long-term solution.

I understand the people get fired up about this topic. I anticipated that in the first post and that's why asked that this not be turned into a flame war.

However, if both sides, the people that perceive a problem and the people who think there is no problem, where to both calm down and at least try to see the others side, we might get somewhere.

My initial post was not an attack on anyone, yet I feel that some people felt the need to get defensive. Then again maybe they were defensive to some of the followup posts by others.

Anyway. We at least have the perception of a problem. If we can't solve the problem, we need to have dialog and resolve the conflict in perception.

If you don't feel that we can resolve anything by civil dialog, then posting harrassing statements either way is definately going to help us NOT achieve that goal.

[lightning claw]

I'd rather not lock the topic. I have faith that this community can respect Galem's request, as well as the forum rules, and have a mature discussion about the topic without accusation and finger pointing.

Thank you,
Amarie

*is getting this -->|| close to closing this thread*

END the snide attacks, right now.

I don't want to have to hand out any more refractions/warnings tonight. The next person who can't say anything nice will get this thread locked. I'm tired of it.

While i am in Full agreement with the mods on this hear ,This is a very HOT topic that has a lot of feelings around it I personnel made a Protest video about it and got flamed

The only way to stop this issue before it snowballs farther is For VI to take a Ofical stand on Camping set up some Rules to it Like you cant camp at spawn sight but can camp in nearest town or something to that degree
Point

Most players think they are being slighted cause they don't get to Hunt Epic mobs (I am with This crowed ) and During the Production of my film we aculy got Valcor before the campers got to him and there was hell to pay in Mp cause they did not kill it they called us campers as well well News flash we where not we where Killing marrow guards and other nasty there for the shear fun of it

We where battling the blight

they where siting at Valcors roaming grounds for the entire time and Not moving


Epic Mobs are so pose to Have this long of a Spawn time they are Epic ! there goodies are a added Bonus

I Strongly Feel Camping at there spawn sight or Roaming Grounds should be strictly Forbidden .

Now
Lets say your after sog for example
Camping at his 6 spawn sights not doing Nothing but staying out of the argo path of the monsters and waiting Ileagel

Actively engaging the mobs sharing in the danger of Franticly searching for him and get to it First Leagel

[Drevar]

Asheron's Call has so many variations on boss/epic encounters that work beautifully, it is staggering that most of those methods have not been employed here.

One method would be a "reward everyone there" concept, modified to fit known working game mechanics in Hor..er Istaria.
1. At the boss death, anyone *alive* within a specified range (a good range as missle/magic users can be 60+ meters away) gets an undispellable buff. The buff lasts until you speak to an NPC at which time you are rewarded, and the buff is removed. The reward can be a straight random roll on a table, like the Wishgiver. A more "fun" method would be to reward a key which opens a reward chest and generates the special quest item plus a few random loot rolls. The extra randoms make these types of quests especially rewarding in AC.

If the lore doesn't fit the concept of the NPC's handing out Reklar, etc. loot pieces, then I would suggest the original Daknor (sp?) method. Upon the death of the mob, anyone with the quest active at a specific step gets a quest loot roll upon opening the corpse. Opening the corpse triggers a quest advance to mitigate the "run out of range and come back for another try" exploit that was used (yes I used it too, as the original 1 piece or nothing method absolutely sucked). You could then complete the final steps and get the bonus rewards; coin, tokens, xp, etc., or cancel the quest outright. You would then be able to retake the quest for another shot at the mob and loot.

*Edit* I would also suggest in the future more AC style "distributed camping" items--very much like the Antique items sets--rather than rinse-repeat boss kills for pieces.

Just throwing out suggestions for solutions rather than fanning the flames...

Drev

[Vahrokh]

Is this the community that you want new players to enter into the game seeing?

I am kind of a "new" player, despite I have Boar Mask even on my alt.
I am one of the Unity "undead" now being migrated in the US servers.
I return playing in Istaria for many reasons and at the same time probably leaving one of the "fortune 500" top WoW guilds.
I was fed up with the "competitive" bullcrap covering WoW all over, with the endless personal attacks, dominion groups and "elites", namecalling with nothing done, exploiting of everything possible and so on and on. All of that for some stupid epic pixels for hormonal prepubescents.

Reading Rick Simmons RPG Vault interview
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/866/866205p3.html

We also offer adventuring in a non-PvP, low-competition environment

a great community of players who are generally not trying to establish their position as the ultimate elite and smite all in their way

Our niche is very much the crafter, non-competitive gamer,

(I experienced on Unity all of the above quotes)

So, do I have to tell my other friends on MSN to return in Horizons or whatever is today's name or to not bother because this is turning into WoW just without raiding and PvP?

Because I am a bit scared at the moment.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

One player did ask to be allowed to kill Reklar as he has not in a couple of years. We offered to let him join our group to experience the kill and he declined.

That player was me, i was allready in the other group who would also allow me to roll, not just the experience of the fight... now i also got the experience of the fight. just not a chance to roll being in group A when group B was doing so much damage.

My question to you guys was to, for just 1 time, give others a chance, by stepping back. It was a test of you guys humanity you could say. This not to judge anyone, just to see for myself who is who after hearing so much extreme stories uppon entering chaos.

[Vlisson]

It's not their 'fault' that they have gear that newer players can no longer get. It's just a fact. If I had a BMH, I'd use it at epic fights. Who would handicap themselves by NOT using it?

Some cheating going on? No.
Someone not sharing? Yes. But I didn't read in the EULA that we had too.
Some inequality here? Yes. But only the Devs can correct that, and not by nerfing what already exists.

i agree, its a shame even for old players not to be able to attain such rare and precious items

there are a lot of items/techs which are gone (a stun tech patched by an error? only 1 player who owns it?)

but the majority dont want to come them back and available again

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=6603

[pevil2000]

I am kind of a "new" player, despite I have Boar Mask even on my alt.
I am one of the Unity "undead" now being migrated in the US servers.
I return playing in Istaria for many reasons and at the same time probably leaving one of the "fortune 500" top WoW guilds.
I was fed up with the "competitive" bullcrap covering WoW all over, with the endless personal attacks, dominion groups and "elites", namecalling with nothing done, exploiting of everything possible and so on and on. All of that for some stupid epic pixels for hormonal prepubescents.

Reading Rick Simmons RPG Vault interview
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/866/866205p3.html

(I experienced on Unity all of the above quotes)

So, do I have to tell my other friends on MSN to return in Horizons or whatever is today's name or to not bother because this is turning into WoW just without raiding and PvP?

Because I am a bit scared at the moment.

I'm actually with Var on this one... now maybe I was just blind on Unity but I saw none of this happening (and might I add right now I love Chaos to bits and have personally found no faults with the people there) but some of the comments and things that get people arguing... it doesn't smack of the HZ I know and love. 99% of the time I see the HZ community that I love, hence my earlier comment that I believe we are all grown-up (I meant mature by that Galem, not 'old enough') to settle this but... when I see comments about not relying on random niceness, it saddens me.

I am 100% certain that on Unity if I had asked just for one kill of any mob, be them Epic or not, then I would have been allowed the chance. I was 100% certain of this on Chaos too, but not so much now... It saddens me a great deal. I personally would be happy once I hit 100 Ancient just to go along for one kill, for the experience. If I ever happen to get the epic items from it, great, but I'm not bothered. You can make some darn nice stuff with crafting anyway and that is more than enough for 'regular' hunting. Heck I'm not even that fussed if I never get Vengeance teched onto my scales (not that I'd mind that either )

Ah well, as I say it's not a big deal for me as far as the actual topic goes, I'm more concerned about the community side of things, and I'd hate to see such a fantastic bunch of people get torn apart by 'purple fever' (sorry WoW creeping in there hehe)

[Vahrokh]

i agree, its a shame even for old players not to be able to attain such rare and precious items

there are a lot of items/techs which are gone (a stun tech patched by an error? only 1 player who owns it?)

but the majority dont want to come them back and available again

http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=6603

Again, one of the reasons not to play WoW but play Horizons is because here it's still possible to save some minimal "uniqueness" and not be just the 10 billionth's recolored clone.

[Vahrokh]

Heck I'm not even that fussed if I never get Vengeance teched onto my scales (not that I'd mind that either )

After some years of not playing I am not 100% sure, but I think I have that tech...