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Thread: Can we re-assess food and the Death Point duration?

  1. #21

    Default Re: Can we re-assess food and the Death Point duration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vengeance View Post
    To bad confectioners can't take the Side, Appitizer, Main Dish, and Dessert and combine them all into one meal. So instead of having multiple items you have one complete meal.
    But the question is, Will it Blend?

    *hands Vengeance a cup of meal* "Now with 14 hours of Death Point reduction, and all the nutrients a growing (sideways) dragon needs!"

  2. #22

    Default Complaint against the new DP and food system

    yes. another thread to complain about DP and food.

    to any who would rip me a new tailvent for posting it: sit down, shut up, and listen to what i have to say, then you may rip all you like.


    When i made my protest about the new system before and right after introduction, everyone and your uncle fussed at me to just try it, and i would see that it isn't "so bad".

    Well, i have tried it, and it is "so bad." I am presently sitting on 12 death points that net me a 20% debuff that lasts for 55 minutes. This means that each and every time i die, i am effectively unable to play the game for 55 minutes, and it adds 5 minutes each time.

    now, i have two options to remove these points:
    First: i can simply not play for two weeks. yeah, right, that'll happen, lets look at number two.

    Second: i can eat food.


    now, that second option doesn't sound so bad. in fact it sounds rather easy, right? On paper, it looks really bloody simple. all i have to do, is sit in a tavern, and eat some food. Just a few problems with that though. Putting aside lore violations, if i choose to eat food, i must eat rather a lot. In fact, i have to eat about three full meals to wipe away one Death Point. This is rather expensive, both in terms of coin and time required.

    lets look at the coin first. last time i sat down to wipe out a DP, it cost me about half as much as it would have to buy one unit of ambrosia under the old system. since, eaten in a tavern, one unit of ambrosia got rid of two DPs, this makes the new food as expensive as the old ambrosia (which i never bought, because it was too expensive)

    And lets look at time required. sitting and eating those three full meals took about 15 minutes. to remove a death point. to remove all twelve of my death points would require several hours of doing nothing but eating (at the cost of about one gold.) and at lower numbers of DPs, the penalty will fade even faster, often in less time it takes to fly back out to where i was hunting.

    So, why would i choose to sit out of the game for several times longer than the death penalty puts me out of effective play? Well, the answer is "I wouldn't." I'd sooner log off and do something else while the penalty fades (which is, incidentally, what i am doing as i write this)


    Now, one may mitigate the coin costs of buying food if one has a high-level confectioner in the guild, which not everyone does. However, this still leaves the time required to actually go pick up the food, detour to a tavern, and eat it.





    however, even if both of those issues were solved, there is still an issue that leaves a air number of players out in the cold: Lore.

    yes, we've come to the part of my post which will be certain to make everyone who wasn't kicking and screaming at me over the first bit start doing so now.

    I play a Lunus dragon. I chose the Lunus faction for my dragon partially because i prefer the melee class, but mostly because the Lunus philosophy appeals to me. A large part of that philosophy deals with relations towards bipeds. That part pretty much boils down to "keep away from me and i won't eat you"

    Now, i play a fairly laid-back lunus in that respect, i have no problem interecting with bipeds. But there are a few places i have to draw the line. One of them is pouring out my coin and time on them for such a basic necessity as food.

    Even if there were one in my guild giving food away at my level, i would not take it. Why? well, one, for the time waste it would be to eat it. but also because i don't like begging.

    I would find it mildly humiliating to have to beg for food off of other dragons (this is, in fact, part of why my hoard is so low, i can't bring myself to take/ask for handouts). As such, I would find it thoroughly humiliating and degrading to have to take handouts from a -biped- for something as basic as -food-


    So, when it's faster, cheaper, and less painful from a lore perspective to simply log out and come back after the Death Penalty is faded, why should i do otherwise?

    And now we come to the problem of the Death Penalty system itself. Any system that forces a player to sit out of the game or play below their character level is a broken system. When I play a game, i expect to be able to play that game for exactly as long as i feel like playing it. when i exit the game, it should be at my discretion, not because a "game-play" element has rendered the game unplayable for a chunk of time.

    The old death point system was perfect. By the time the death penalty built up from a minor inconvenience to a serious inhibition, i'd usually had my fill for the day, and could come back the next day with a clean slate. The DP fade timers either need to be reduced to allow for this to be possible again, or the whole system needs to be scrapped and something new thought up.

    I, for one, rather like the way Vanguard handles death. When you die, you loose 10% of the experience required to reach the next level. You can return to the place of death and loot your tombstone to recover most of it (ends up with about a 3% loss) as well as any gear that you dropped. If you wound up with less experience than you had for the level, it simply marked you into the negative on experience, and allowed you to keep your level.
    In this manner, it allowed a player to continue playing when confronted with a death, but at the same time strongly discouraged throwing yourself at a mob over and over ad nauseum.

    Something similar would be nice to see here, but given how huge a change it would be to get it to work, i doubt it'll ever happen. so let's just stick with fixing the DP fade timer hokay?
    Last edited by Amarie Ancalimon; June 2nd, 2008 at 02:35 AM.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    I would have to admit the guy has a point, and it is why I, also, did not like the new DP system. Yes, I agree, Confectioners needed a buff, but dang, I think this is stretching it a bit.

    I've never had 20 DPs on me at any given time (most I ever had, was 11 from doing RoP, stupid mob in Eastern Deadlands anyways), but I could understand the plight, if I ever happen upon so many DPs myself.

    I think there should be an option for dragons. Make it so that only bipeds can eat biped food, and give Dragons something else entirely. Maybe make it so that Dragon Lair and Halls will do something similar to Taverns, and maybe make it so that dragons eat something other than cooked food (what dragon would ever eat biped-cooked food? Dragons fly around and gulp down whole sheep and cattle, raw, or cooked with their fire breath!)

    It would make a LOT more sense, lore-wise, and the OP has a very valid point here.

    Edit: One more thing... why not give Confectioners a sort of dessert, if they don't already have it, that shortens the Death Penalty debuff? 55 minutes is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH too long for something as large as a -20% all stats debuff. It basically limits your character to doing nothing but lower level crafting, and killing weak low level crap for nearly an RL hour.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Why do you have 12 Death Points?
    "Ohoh...someone is actually trying to sell something, I see an attunement coming. LOL" - Teto Frum


  5. #25

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    ....
    are you illiterate? because it's less time-consuming to simply wait out the penalty than to eat them off. like i said in my main post, five times.

    and twelve is suddenly nothing. there are people in my group right at this very moment with 30+

  6. #26

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    That would also be my question. Knowing the death point and penalty system, and knowing how much you hate it, why did you allow yourself to get 12 DPs?

    The whole point of a DP system is to make death undesirable while allowing a choice of in- and out of game options for mitigating it. From your argument, I would say they succeeded.

    Drev

  7. #27

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Quote Originally Posted by Shur View Post
    ....
    are you illiterate? because it's less time-consuming to simply wait out the penalty than to eat them off. like i said in my main post, five times.
    I apologise, my question was not clear enough to avoid this confusion. It had nothing to do with whether or how the DPs would be gotten rid of. Instead, its entire focus was on the fact that you managed to get that many DPs in the first place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shur View Post
    and twelve is suddenly nothing. there are people in my group right at this very moment with 30+
    And why do they have so many?
    "Ohoh...someone is actually trying to sell something, I see an attunement coming. LOL" - Teto Frum


  8. #28

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    That would also be my question. Knowing the death point and penalty system, and knowing how much you hate it, why did you allow yourself to get 12 DPs?

    The whole point of a DP system is to make death undesirable while allowing a choice of in- and out of game options for mitigating it. From your argument, I would say they succeeded.

    Drev
    It shouldn't, however, totally shut down your operations for days+ time.

    As far as having that many death points, sometimes it is unavoidable. Maybe you are doing something like RoP (like I was), in which I had no Choice, because there's just not much one can do when they are surrounded by mobs 2x their level, and I just can't quit now because "I have too many DPs now" because I might not get another RoP group again for weeks+ time. It is do it now, or Else.

    I imagine ARoP will be similar, but at least I won't be a Lv50 amongst Lv90+ mobs that can one-shot me.


    However the DPs were accumulated is a non-issue, the point still stands that having some DPs shouldn't shut your character down for RL _days_ at a time. I agree there should be Some penalty, I just think the current penalty is a bit too stiff.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Quote Originally Posted by Xoshara View Post
    I apologise, my question was not clear enough to avoid this confusion. It had nothing to do with whether or how the DPs would be gotten rid of. Instead, its entire focus was on the fact that you managed to get that many DPs in the first place.

    And why do they have so many?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    That would also be my question. Knowing the death point and penalty system, and knowing how much you hate it, why did you allow yourself to get 12 DPs?
    because, as i said in my post, it is easier to wait out the Penalty and resume hunting than it is to eat them off. the death penalty lasts a shorter time than it would take to sit down and eat away all the DPs a person has, regardless of how many they have. and it costs coin that cant really be spared.

    at one death point, there is no penalty, and it would take 15 minutes to eat that point off. at two points, the penalty is five minutes, and it would take 30 minutes. at three points, penalty is ten minutes, and eating them all off would take 45. you see how this adds up?

    each time i die, it adds fifteen minutes to the time to get back to 0 death points, and 5 minutes to the time required to resume hunting.

    if you are asking why i die more than once every twenty-eight hours, it's because i have been hunting 1: insane amounts of ice beetles; 2: elite blights; and 3: blight hounds in order to 1: gain hoard; 2: get crystals; and 3: finish the quest for the ceremonial scale

    The whole point of a DP system is to make death undesirable while allowing a choice of in- and out of game options for mitigating it. From your argument, I would say they succeeded.

    Drev
    oh, yes, it has made death quite the nuisance. the thing is this: I don't play games to have things irritate me, i play games to relax and have fun. if this game is going to continue along a path that causes irritation, i will not continue playing it. And i will bet you my next paycheck that i am not alone in that sentiment. i know people who have stopped playing over the new DP system. until last week i was one of them. only reason i am back is because i have a friend about to start his ARoP, and i intend to finish mine with him.
    Last edited by Amarie Ancalimon; June 2nd, 2008 at 02:36 AM.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Hmm, if you wanted to gain hoard, and aren't exactly particular about How exactly you do it, have you tried gaining coin through crafting junk to dump on Pawnbrokers and/or doing some of the new money quests I've been hearing about?

    I don't know which server you play on, but on Order, people usually have reasonably priced hoard items on the Augundell Consigner. It wouldn't really take that long to build up several hundred K of hoard, about an hour or so and you would have enough to buy out the connie's supply of hoard items, and end up with a million or more hoard to show for it.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Look at the accumulation of death points this way:

    1) You log on. You have a limited amount of time to play.
    2) You decide to form a group and go fighting.
    3) You get a Death Point (for whatever reason. Maybe you're fighting a boss, maybe you were just careless. Whatever, it doesn't matter. DPs happen sometimes. Such is life.).
    4) At this point you have 2 options. Either quit the group, go back to a tavern, and eat food, or you keep fighting and hope you don't die again.
    5) But here's the kicker. Each time you get a Penalty along with your Point. That penalty increases the likelihood that you will die again. So each time you get a DP your chances of getting another DP increase again.

    So, knowing this, go back to number 4. You have a death point and a limited amount of playtime (this is a casual game, not a hardcore game). What are you going to do about it? Are you going to quit your group (ie, your fun ends), or are you going to keep having fun, and likely rack up 5 or 6 DPs before you log out?

    The problem with the current system is that it *railroads* people into not playing the game (or *spits* crafting). That's a crazy idea! Why design a system that does everything in its power to force players to avoid actually playing the game? This is why XP penalties are a better idea than time penalties. Sure it sucks to lose XP, but when you lose it you want to keep playing in order to make it back. When you get a time penalty you just want to log off for the day and maybe, maybe, log back in tomorrow after that 28 hour penalty is gone.
    Last edited by gopher65; June 1st, 2008 at 10:13 PM.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    I don't know which server you play on, but on Order, people usually have reasonably priced hoard items on the Augundell Consigner. It wouldn't really take that long to build up several hundred K of hoard, about an hour or so and you would have enough to buy out the connie's supply of hoard items, and end up with a million or more hoard to show for it.
    in an hour or so hunting ice beetles i can get a million hoard if it's a good hunt. and i usually pull down half a gold as well

    but please, let's keep this on topic. the problem with the death system is not that people die, it's that the punishment is overkill.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    I'm still eating/waiting off 7 from my 12. My mate has 13 I think.

    I want to play the game, not spend precious time sitting in a tavern. If I wanted to do that, I'd be back in Galaxies. Eating does nothing to 'forward' my character and it takes way too long to get rid of these DP.

    If you're wondering where *I* got so many, I killed 8 Famine before they dropped the Essence I needed. The sawrms killed me a few more times than I could kill them.

    As I've said earlier, were numbers different, this might actually be worth doing. As it stands though, it's not worth it.
    Last edited by Shian; June 1st, 2008 at 10:20 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Being shut out for days at a time is 95% that person's own choice (5% allows for lag, etc). What appears to be lacking is a self imposed system of management.

    A choice was given...eat food to eliminate DPs, sit out the penalty and to heck with the DP count, or log off and let the DP decrease passively. The choice was made to go with option 2. There is a tradeoff for each choice, however, and the chosen one means quickly accumulating DP until they become unmanageable.

    My suggestion: Find a point at which your wait for actively reducing DP is equal to penalty time you would sit out before fighting again. Don't allow your DP count to get out of hand. You are willing to sit out an hour of game time to lose the penalty; in that time you could reduce your DP from 12 to 8. Dieing with 8 is a much shorter wait than dieing with 12.

    My other suggestion is to learn when to say enough. My limit is about 4, even long having had the ability to make ambrosia and keeping a stockpile and now being 100 CONF. I can coun't the number of times I have had 5 or more DP on one hand. It was just a habit I got into knowing that some day they might change the system. My playstyle is to play as if there was no DP mitigation besides logging off...I REALLY don't want to die. I mentally impose a harsher penalty than actually exists. Too used to Asheron's Call corpse runs, I guess.

    Drev

  15. #35

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    in an hour or so hunting ice beetles i can get a million hoard if it's a good hunt. and i usually pull down half a gold as well

    but please, let's keep this on topic. the problem with the death system is not that people die, it's that the punishment is overkill.
    But yet, you are racking up more DPs by killing the said beetles. Crafting/Questing for Money would yield no DPs, and your stat-downs wouldn't matter, would it?

    And as far as the Food and such goes, I ask again:

    Why can't we have a food that reduces the Death Penalty Debuff time? say, 55 minutes for 12 DPs.. make a food each tier that, say, cuts it in half, but you can only eat the food once per hour?

    Basically, when you use the said food, it places a Buff, or a Debuff (either/or) that prevents you from eating another one for one full hour. If you die again, this Buff/Debuff is removed so that you can eat another one to half -that- Death Penalty time. Obviously, there would be Tiers, say Tier 2 had to eat At Least a Tier 2 Death Penalty Reducer, if they ate a Tier 1, it only cuts it by 25% or some-such.

    I mean, even 27.5 minutes would be better than 55 minutes of downtime.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Quote Originally Posted by Drevar View Post
    My other suggestion is to learn when to say enough. My limit is about 4, even long having had the ability to make ambrosia and keeping a stockpile and now being 100 CONF. I can coun't the number of times I have had 5 or more DP on one hand. It was just a habit I got into knowing that some day they might change the system. My playstyle is to play as if there was no DP mitigation besides logging off...I REALLY don't want to die. I mentally impose a harsher penalty than actually exists.
    Many people say this, and I feel incredulous each time I hear it. I don't like crafting, I've said that before and I'll say it again. So crafting away DPs isn't an option for me. I tried it recently, and I'm not going to do it again, ever. If it comes down to being forced to craft or quiting the game, I'll quit.

    Anyway, if I'm having fun hunting in a groups, your solution for me is to just... stop? Just quit hunting until my DPs go away? Cause there's nothing else in this game that I like doing. I mean... I guess I can. There's nothing forcing me to log in and play this particular game. There are others out there... but any game that tries to force you to stop playing... well, it just seems to me that attempting to get your playerbase to cancel their accounts (if they are anything other than mega-crafters) is weird.

    To me the simple solution to this is to simple reduce the amount of time that it takes to eat food. Keep everything else the same, but reduce the need for people to spend an hour or 2 sitting in a tavern wasting precious playtime.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    I agree with Drevar, but I also agree with this idea:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin
    Why can't we have a food that reduces the Death Penalty Debuff time?
    "Ohoh...someone is actually trying to sell something, I see an attunement coming. LOL" - Teto Frum


  18. #38

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    okay, a couple things, first:

    Rudeness will NOT be tolerated on these forums in any way, shape or form. If you can not discuss issues like a mature adult, then don't discuss them.


    and second:

    A choice was given...eat food to eliminate DPs, sit out the penalty and to heck with the DP count, or log off and let the DP decrease passively. The choice was made to go with option 2. There is a tradeoff for each choice, however, and the chosen one means quickly accumulating DP until they become unmanageable.
    unfortunately, the first choice in that list is exactly the same as the second choice. in fact, it's worse, because it takes longer to eat off a point than to wait out a penalty and it costs coin to boot.


    third:

    My suggestion: Find a point at which your wait for actively reducing DP is equal to penalty time you would sit out before fighting again. Don't allow your DP count to get out of hand. You are willing to sit out an hour of game time to lose the penalty; in that time you could reduce your DP from 12 to 8. Dieing with 8 is a much shorter wait than dieing with 12.
    it is not that i am willing to sit out of the game, it's that i have no choice.

    well, actually, i do have a choice. that choice is between spending gobs of coin sitting in a tavern doing absolutely nothing while i wait, or logging off and doing something else.


    the thing is, both of those choices are bad ones. When i play a game i want to be able to play it for as long as i please without any serious interruption. I don't play games to be punished for how i play the game, i play games in order to enjoy playing the game. When there is a system present that forces me to take a time-out from the game against my will, there is a problem. I don't care what you disguise that time out as, whether it is sitting in a tavern eating for an hour, or logging off and doing something else for an hour, or arguing with (a) condescending snot-nosed snob(s) on the forum for an hour, it is still an unpleasant waste of time.



    Quote Originally Posted by gopher65 View Post
    Many people say this, and I feel incredulous each time I hear it. I don't like crafting, I've said that before and I'll say it again. So crafting away DPs isn't an option for me. I tried it recently, and I'm not going to do it again, ever. If it comes down to being forced to craft or quiting the game, I'll quit.

    Anyway, if I'm having fun hunting in a groups, your solution for me is to just... stop? Just quit hunting until my DPs go away? Cause there's nothing else in this game that I like doing. I mean... I guess I can. There's nothing forcing me to log in and play this particular game. There are others out there... but any game that tries to force you to stop playing... well, it just seems to me that attempting to get your playerbase to cancel their accounts (if they are anything other than mega-crafters) is weird.

    To me the simple solution to this is to simple reduce the amount of time that it takes to eat food. Keep everything else the same, but reduce the need for people to spend an hour or 2 sitting in a tavern wasting precious playtime.
    thank you. this is exactly the way i feel about the issue.
    Last edited by Amarie Ancalimon; June 2nd, 2008 at 02:20 AM.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Dude, I've nothing against you, but please chill out, I don't want the moderators to get mad at you, or this very valid debate to descend into simple finger-pointing and namecalling. Let us try to stick to the original topic, of the Death Penalty system, and less about who is a better player, who sucks because they died, or who died for what reason, alright?

    I am saying this to everyone, btw. Let's stick to the topic at hand, please. I don't want this thread to get locked.
    Last edited by Amarie Ancalimon; June 2nd, 2008 at 02:24 AM. Reason: Removed response to flaming

  20. #40

    Default Re: Complaint against the new DP and food system

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    I am saying this to everyone, btw. Let's stick to the topic at hand, please. I don't want this thread to get locked.
    agreed, i'll try to keep my posts civil.

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