Auction or purchase?

[Amarie Ancalimon]

My Fellow Istarians,

We have yet another question for you to respond to. Your feedback on the guild communities thread has been appreciated and given us much to think about. We are now considering a new "question on the table".

What would advantages to having reclaimed plots being sold through auction be as opposed to placing them up for immediate sale upon reclaim?

A few things to note as you consider this:
1) Reclaims will happen on a "rolling" basis over time. Not all plots will be reclaimed at the same time. And before you ask, no we aren't ready to announce when, how, or where that is going to happen. So don't ask, either on the thread or by PMing me. As always, when I know more, I'll tell you more. If your respond to the question includes conditionals based on some of the "when, how and where", then of course include those notes. Just don't expect that I'll be able to fill in the answers.

2) Players will still be able to manually sell their plot back to the community or to another player. For those who have more plots than subscriptions, if you want to keep the "right" plots, you'll have to sell to the community or another player. These plots will not then be eligible for auction, but straight sale.

3) Any plots for sale currently on any shard will also remain up for immediate sale.

Let the discussion begin.

[lightning claw]

When this effects me ...
i would like to see both if its possible i mean heck in Rl both happens just about every month
there house auctions where thes 500kand up houses go for just the taxes owed on them

then the plot repos would keep the housing market normal i would think

if you can do both that would be cool . if not thumbs up on the auctions !

*Continues to load truck *
god i hate moving

[Takora Drakan]

The more important question is dear Amarië, will there be visible or blind auctions? (A blind auction is where you cant see if other players bid on the plot/lair)

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Oh, wait... remove that idea as an option right off the bat. It's auction OR purchase.

Now granted, anything that was put up for auction and not bought by the end of the auction period would just go up for sale. But that's not "both" in my mind. That's just a logical ending to auctions.

And please give us some idea of why you're "voting" either way. We're not just looking for which is your choice, but why.

Thanks

[Amarie Ancalimon]

The more important question is dear Amarië, will there bis visible or hidden auctions? (A hidden auction is where you cant see if other players bid on the plot)

Feel free to discuss pros and cons of each, but like I said, right now I have no answers beyond that which have already been given. So basically all that's a given at this point is that we will have plot reclaims.

[Takora Drakan]

I personally would go for blind auction because:

A) Purchase: A player "camps" the plot and purchaches it right away and other players dont even have a chance to get the plot.

B) Visible Auction: There can players look all the time on the bidding window and like on ebay, 5 sec before the end you add 1s on your bid and win the plot/lair when the others are at work/sleep/etc.

C) Blind Auction: The players dont see who or how much is currently bidded on the plot. (It was like that handled on Unity) So you dont know till the end if you win and adds another thrill so all give their best, and some will bite in the table because noone bidded on the plot, but hey you got your plot now.

I would go for C, its the most fair option IMO.

[Amarie Ancalimon]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, doesn't option C just mean that only those with the most coin on the server will get the choice of plots? And since you don't know how much that might be, you could lock up all your available coin during the time of the auction, and still not get what you wanted. And you could also end up paying way more than the plot was really worth, or than you would have needed to, because really the only person you're competing against is yourself.

[Zexoin]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, doesn't option C just mean that only those with the most coin on the server will get the choice of plots? And since you don't know how much that might be, you could lock up all your available coin during the time of the auction, and still not get what you wanted. And you could also end up paying way more than the plot was really worth, or than you would have needed to, because really the only person you're competing against is yourself.

yeah but that's the game. It's not fair to get a plot because you were camping and logged in first. You want a plot, you make money to get it, that's the rules of such a game, if you see what I mean.

[Kulamata]

LTricky either way.

Straight flat sale, which I tend to prefer, means that there is a first come, first served land rush quality to the sale. ehh. Lottery perhaps? With (as during the server merge) enough time between listings to allow players to adjust and sign up for their next choice?

Auctions. Some players may have tremendous stacks of gold, others who've played just as long and hard but had not gathered gold as there was no real use for it won't have much. Auctions will drive some prices very very high perhaps; I think I prefer straight sale for that reason. Perhaps a melding... an auction with a max cap, and lottery if more than one bid the max. Visible might be the better choice in this circumstance.

Blind auction means that a player doesn't know if they're getting the plot, so they need to bid on several, with some means of keeping their preference list in order of priority. This was handled well during the merge.

Visible auction. At least a player knows if they'll get the plot or not, and can move on to another choice before the sales are conducted.

Edit: Done without reading the previous two... I think it's still ok though.

[Takora Drakan]

Playing a bit of devil's advocate here, doesn't option C just mean that only those with the most coin on the server will get the choice of plots? And since you don't know how much that might be, you could lock up all your available coin during the time of the auction, and still not get what you wanted. And you could also end up paying way more than the plot was really worth, or than you would have needed to, because really the only person you're competing against is yourself.

That's life Amarië, but like Zexoin and Kulamata said its the only fair option. If you want to pile your gold on the plot go ahead. The person with the most money wins. Not the person that sits there when the pots open or bids 1s more 5 sec before the auction ends.

The problem is different time zones. Only with blind auctions you can guarantee that its fair.

[Xanthia]

I have to side with Takora as well for pretty much the same reason. Gawd knows that if it was decided to be purchase I would be PRAYING that I was already out of school and not on vacation in a completely different state/continent so I can camp the lair I've wanted for 2 years 24/7.

While I've heard on a constant basis people remembering back to the old days when they bid 50g on their lair, only to later realize they where the only one to bid on it, I still think blind auction is the best. Sure, you blew a huge amount of dough that you could had wasted on something better (Comps from nadia anyone? ^^) but hey atleast you got your lair/plot! (The idea is don't spend money you ain't willing to lose.) And of course as already stated, no one likes the "smart guy" who waits till the final few seconds to add just a tiiiiiiiiny bit more than the previous highest bid to win. I ask you.... would you do it?............ *coughyescoughcoughs*.

The only difference from ebay though, you can actually go find the guy ingame and kill him! > (Kidding!)

Quote: Any plots for sale currently on any shard will also remain up for immediate sale. ----- It is nice to know that the "300g lair" still "for sale" will always remain that way. I mean it is like one of Chaos's "World Wonders". Gawd forbid anyone buys it and builds something in it. ^^

[Oakleif]

I don't know the number of players in each time zone, but I do know that we have a significant percentage of players in Europe and North America. If the time for an open sale was picked so that European players through west-coast NA players would be available, then that may be the easiest way to go: just do the reclaim. This would then presumably match what would happen each succeeding month when reclaims are automated (they are being automated, aren't they?)

One possibility would be after a Tuesday restart, where 4 PM Pacific is 7 PM Eastern and 1 AM in Berlin. Another would be on a Saturday as 8AM Pacific is 11 AM Eastern and 5 PM in Berlin.

However, if the time wasn't chosen carefully along these lines, then a blind auction open for 24 to 48 hours is likelier a fairer option so that everyone has a chance to place a bid. The draw back is that the richest ones win their choice, and will spend more money than the plot is worth. I recall there being angst from the Unity players about getting imperial price for their plot during the transfer rather than purchase price when many had spent big bucks during a plot auction for their piece of land. I would hope that we could avoid that particular discussion again.

Also, is it possible that plots currently for sale might be "reclaimed" and put up for sale at the Imperial price rather than the outrageous prices some are currently asking? The drawback to that is that such a reclaim may automatically destroy any structures on the plot which would be a bad thing I think. (No, I'm not a novian hunter, but there are some "abandonded" plots that are filled with open machines or public silos in necessary locations - see the Shard-wide Plots of Concern thread on the Order forum for some examples.)

[Sigi]

I don't like blind auctions, just personally because I'm not a gambler and because of the overpowering of money. I don't care if someone with an awfull lot of gold spents it all on a 1 gold plot but it's a bit sad that someone with just that one gold never stood a chance of buying it.

Plots (and where I say plots I also mean lairs) have their price. You could say I pay that price and if more people want that plot just draw a name so everyone who can afford that plot and wants it have a chance of getting it.

Just put them up for sale is fine for me too. Though it would give older players a bit of a headstart because they would probably know which plots will be reclaimed. On the other hand whlie it's a running proces I guess all over Istaria there will be plots for sale and you will not know upfront when or where. Camping a plot - not knowing if and when it will be sold - seems like quite an effort then.

If it will come to a blind auction i'll probably do what I did on Unity. Not participate in the auction but take a good look at the "leftovers"

[Zexoin]

Quote: Any plots for sale currently on any shard will also remain up for immediate sale. ----- It is nice to know that the "300g lair" still "for sale" will always remain that way. I mean it is like one of Chaos's "World Wonders". Gawd forbid anyone buys it and builds something in it. ^^

Ha ! we have a 200g plot for sale in Nuthala on Order too

[Justa Mirage]

Blind auction worked best, I have been part of both ways (when they did reclaim, immediate purchase, and auction method)

When they did "plot reclaim" (before the merge when plots became "plentiful") many campers, many heated arguments, many disliked guilds for organized camping of plots. Players were constantly asking "Have you ever seen <character> or <alt of character> on recently???" trying to find if that "unbuilt" plot that hadn't been touched in months was going to be up for auction.

I was able to get a plot in Nuthala for 157sp when they did do the sweeping reclaims, one section at a time. But I do recall the days of people bellowing about dragons sitting on the plot markers, and the counter attacks of people posting about how to walk into the dragon and you can see the plot marker, or use setscale. Those days were bad.

Auctioning (as how I got my plot in sanctuary bay, and my lair) was much better. The white flags went up on properties of what was going up for sale, you could bid on as many properties as you wanted, but as soon as you won a property, all of your other bids failed automatically. Plus, there was an announcement as to how the "waves of auctions" were going to happen. So based on where you placed your bids, you would hope the one you wanted really REALLY bad wasn't on the last auction block. Otherwise you would be taking a really big gamble on getting that one lair / plot you were looking for if you had no back up bids.

When the dust is settled, and everyone has either won or lost, then what ever is left over can be purchased at normal community prices.

Also a bad thing about immediate sales are the Novian farmers. Alt accounts with no purchased plot will be going out and buying plots, removing all the structures, selling it back to the community, and moving to the next plot for sale, either same day, or the next "wave"

With auctions, people will bid on plots / lairs with already built structures and high prices will be levied on them. What they do with the structures once they win is up to them.

[Pharcellus]

My suggestion:

Anonymous Proxy Auctions.

When plots are reclaimed, they are put up for auction on a specific schedule. When the auction starts, anyone can bid on the plot, and they can bid immediately up to the maximum they are willing to pay, or can wait until the very last moment to place their bid. However, these are all Proxy bids. Here's how these work:

1) Plot is put up for auction at some base price (could be the Imperial price, or some percentage above or below it), and some minimum increment. For example, let's use a plot starting price of 500sp and an increment of 10sp.
2) First bidder bids the starting price or as much above it to his maximum price. The actual displayed bid is the base price. The bidder's name is not revealed to anyone. Let's say he bids 1gp. The actual bid becomes 500sp.
3) The second bidder comes along and bids. His minimum bid is the current actual bid plus the increment, and he also can bid as much as he wants. Let's say he bids 750sp. The bid is recorded as 750sp, but the First bidder's proxy bid of 1gp trumps the second bid by more than the bid increment, so the actual bid becomes 760sp, with the first bidder winning still.
4) A third bidder comes along and bids 1.5gp for the plot. Since this bid exceeds the first bidder's maximum bid by more than the increment, the bid becomes 1gp 10sp, with the third bidder winning.
5) A fourth bidder comes in and also bids 1.5gp. The actual bid is now increased to 1.5gp, but the third bidder is still winning since it doesn't exceed the third bidder's maximum by the increment.
6) Note that any of the aforementioned bidders can be the same as any of the previous bidders, but only their max bid is increased, unless they are not currently winning with the actual bid, whereupon it is increased according to the rules above.

Alternatively, the existing blind auction system worked very well, though it does encourage people to always bid their maximum, which will be the actual bid if they win, thus no savings over other bidders. IE, if someone bids 100gp for a plot, they will pay the entire 100gp if they win, even if the next highest bid is 1gp. Whereas, with the system above, they would only pay 1gp 10sp.

I STRONGLY advise all reclaimed plots be subject to auction by the Empire, not merely sold. If they don't sell, then they can be put up for sale.

Note: The Anonymous Proxy Bidding system is primarily used by eBay now, and is used very well with the plot reclamation system in Second Life.

[Mearis]

I would say auctions (blind where people can not see what others are bidding and log on a minute before the servers go down and add a copper on top of the highest bid) and then what ever does not sell during auctions just becomes avail (of course as an empty plot with plot contents and novians going to prior owner in either case)

[Steelclaw]

The advantage to selling plots directly as a result of a reclaim is that players know exactly how much they will have to pay for the plot, and they will know immediately if they got it or not. It's more of a peace of mind thing, I guess.

The advantage to auctioning the plots as a result of a reclaim is... well there are multiple advantages. First, it sucks more coin out of the economy -- if someone wins a 6g bid for a 0.4g plot, 5.6g more was just sucked out of the economy. Second, it enables throttling of novian farming. Under direct sale of plots, a single player with a modest amount of coin (less than 10g) can purchase a plot, decon it, sell it back to the community, get 95% of their coin back (or is it 85%?) and repeat. The auction system /can/ throttle this behavior by limiting the rate at which a single character can purchase plots. (Randomizing and not disclosing the auction end times can make it even more effective.) Plus, it allows players who actually want to keep the plot (and its structures) to get a chance to own it -- without making the time of day they play a big factor.

[Mearis]

I would edit my reply, but it will not let me lol. Guess I waited too long. The reason I prefer an auction is so those who have to work, and can not be on when the servers first come up after reclaim still have a chance at getting the plot they have been wanting.

[Deth]

I like the blid auction my self. use it to clear out some money, I know people can just grind it back again if they want it but it will help clear out some of the coin sitting around. I do not like Pharcellus idea my self but then I see the auctions as a money sick the game needs.