Auction or purchase?

[Drevar]

I would also vote for the original blind auction system, community by community with advanced notice of which/when the auctions are to expire, and winners broadcast in the Auction channel. Just have to have someone on duty to watch the auction script, as the last couple of times it would get "stuck" on specific plots and would not advance. We had to get Smeglor to go in and pursuade it with a baseball bat.

Drev

[Adwene]

Auction definately!

I remember when they redesigned genevia. By the time I logged on all the best plots had been sold. I never even got a chance to put in a bid.

With the auctions, I would like that you can bid upto the amount you have on you, for every plot that your interested in. However, the cash is not actually removed until you win an auction. At which time all your bids on previous plots are removed. Failure to have the amount you bid on you when you win, means the next highest bid wins.

I'd perfer either a blind auction *or* an open auction where each bid increases the timer before the auction is settled by 24 hours, this would give players another 24 hours to log in and rebid, preventing people out bidding in the last 5 seconds. If an open auction occurs, I think its fair to have a minium increase in bid of at least 10%.

EDIT: Yes I quite liked the original bidding system they did on server merge too.

[Soresha]

Auction means a stressful wait to find out, purchase means a stressful land rush, I don't think there's much piece of mind to be had either way.

The problem with straight purchase is that it is not fair to the people who can't be online the second the servers come up. The different US and EU time zones aggravate this even more, ok you could pick an overlapping time on a weekend, but then some people work weekends too.

I would say blind auctions (like after the server merge to Unity) are the way to go, you bid what you can and/or what you feel the plot/lair is worth. Also since there are tight rules dictating what happens there is little room for bad feelings between players due to the camping scenarios that come with a straight sale.

Yes the hugely different levels of money people currently have is an issue, and does leave some disadvantaged. On the one hand I generally agree with the "that's the game" and "you get what you've worked for" sentiment. On the other hand, I think it needs to be acknowledged that the passage of time and the unfortunate loss of the Unity shard has skewed things.

To give an example:
Back in the Unity auctions I bid everything I had, which was 32g. That was a LOT of money back then, and since I never built up my gold reserves again I was imported onto Chaos with only a few gold to my name. I was shocked recently to discover some people on Chaos currently have 100g, 200g or more, I was told the top plots will probably go for 500g... there's little chance players recently resurrected from the Unity database can compete with that.

So I suspect there is a distortion in gold levels because long standing players on Chaos/Order have had nothing to spend their money on for years, whilst players on Unity have been lost in the void unable to play their characters for years. Now I fully admit this is only my perception based on observations. My point is only that I would ask the people at Virtrium who have access to the real figures to have a look at the data on this and see for themselves what the situation really is.

I have already made a very serious suggestion in another thread for a limited scheme to assist ex-Unity players to reclaim a plot/lair only if they originally owned it on Unity and they want to buy it again now. Because it would be heartbreaking for players to be bidding in an auction, hoping to get back what they lost when their shard and characters were taken away from them, only to lose to someone else who never owned it in the past simply because they have more money.

So what I would really like to see is a scheme like this implemented first, after which it's a blind auction. So people have the ability to buy back what they lost but after that it's back to who has the most money and the long standing Chaos/Order players will have the advantage again.

The post is here: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=18232
Please read it carefully before commenting, there are several limitations built into the suggested scheme so it's not a case of "you can automatically have anything you previously owned". I have not yet had any official response to this idea so I'm raising it again, hoping Virtrium will consider it and respond, and I would welcome responses from other players too.

[pevil2000]

I like Phar's idea; it's just the way ebay works at the moment and is almost a cross between a 'normal' auction and a blind one; have it so the current bid is viewable but everyones max bid isn't. So when you see that lair is at 1g you know you need to put a bit more on than that, but have no clue if someone has put up 1g as their max or if someone has got a 10g bid on it.

It would also save someone spending 1g on a lair only to find that no one else bid and they could have spent half that price.

[Takora Drakan]

It would also save someone spending 1g on a lair only to find that no one else bid and they could have spent half that price.

Would you rather bid 1g for your dream lair as still having 1g after the auction and having no lair?

Coin can be very easy gottn back these days.

[Sigi]

My suggestion:

Anonymous Proxy Auctions.

I like this more than the blind auction.

[Karya]

I was discussing this matter with Tsargoth (my fiance RL) and we believe that Auction would be the best choice in all of this if it's just between auction and purchasing. By having plots up for sale immediately might be enabling novian farmers, depending on what is done with the structures on the plots. Also, not every player is on at the same time so direct purchase would exclude whoever would not be on at that time the plot becomes available for resale.

The auction however would benefit more of the longer playing characters who have been amassing more coin than say the unity players who didn't have a choice of being able to be in Istaria to continue collecting wealth.

A third option would be to have a lottery type system where player each pays the full purchase price of the plot for a ticket. No limit to the number of tickets that can be purchased for said plot and VI would make a draw from those purchasing tickets. This would give everyone the opportunity to get the plot that they want, even those who don't have the coin to compete in an auction or be present when plots go up for sale.

Just some thoughts.

Sincerely,

Karya and Tsargoth

[pevil2000]

Would you rather bid 1g for your dream lair as still having 1g after the auction and having no lair?

Coin can be very easy gottn back these days.

Obviously I'd rather bid it But I've only seen 1g once, when it was given to me as a welcome to Chaos hehe and it's not based on my opinion that I said that, it's based on the number of complaints I saw about the old auctions where people were annoyed they'd bid so much when they didn't need to

Either way it doesn't really affect me; I got a lair and would only swap it for another if my old one from Unity came up for auction.

[Vlisson]

i dont like blind auctions but they would be real money sinks ^^

i would like an auction like ebay but with no last 5 second bids

but you place your highest bid 100g
then the second highest bid from another player would be 96g than you would get this plot/lair for 96,5 g?

[Shian]

I have already made a very serious suggestion in another thread for a limited scheme to assist ex-Unity players to reclaim a plot/lair only if they originally owned it on Unity and they want to buy it again now. Because it would be heartbreaking for players to be bidding in an auction, hoping to get back what they lost when their shard and characters were taken away from them, only to lose to someone else who never owned it in the past simply because they have more money.

The point in the last thread was also brought up of who is considered "more deserving" of a lair:
One who had the lair at one point and wants it back because they were forced to move shards or
One who has been in the game forever, patiently watching and waiting if a specific lair goes up for sale but dosen't get it because someone else had owned it and got it by default?

[Soresha]

The point in the last thread was also brought up of who is considered "more deserving" of a lair:
One who had the lair at one point and wants it back because they were forced to move shards or
One who has been in the game forever, patiently watching and waiting if a specific lair goes up for sale but dosen't get it because someone else had owned it and got it by default?

It's a good point to debate, I haven't seen whichever thread mentioned it previously.

However if one has been in the game forever as you say, then they would have been present for the previous round of auctions after the server merges, and when lairs were first introduced to the game. Every long-standing player has already had a fair and equal chance to win all the plots/lairs ingame in those earlier auctions, so clearly if someone is now hoping for a particular plot/lair they don't currently own, then they didn't originally win it when they had the chance to.

So I'll stick to my original viewpoint. Hoping to own something should it become available in the future is not the same as owning something and having it taken away from you against your will, and certainly does not give someone a prior claim on that something.

[Shian]

...has already had a fair and equal chance to win all the plots/lairs ingame in those earlier auctions, so clearly if someone is now hoping for a particular plot/lair they don't currently own, then they didn't originally win it when they had the chance to.

Unless the lair has been rightfully owned all the way up until now.

As an example, there's been a few people leaving on my server that have been here for a very long while.

[Landowyn]

I would second Phar's suggestion for a proxy auction system. I just returned from hiatus and before I left I gave away all my gold, so any auction system that starts up in the next few weeks would be difficult for me to participate in.

HOWEVER ... if I do manage to scrape together enough gold to bid on a premium plot, I wouldn't want to pay more than I have to right now because I need whatever is left over to update my armour, crystals, etc.

I dislike the blind auction, but I don't want to have to camp a plot to get it. I remember bidding on a plot in Last Stand in the last round of auctions, and putting up a bid of twice the plot's worth to the Empire. Someone won with a bid nearly twice what I had offered. That's insane, so I will probably be left with waiting around for the leftovers ... just like before. Meanwhile, somone who already has 3 or 4 premium plots and tons of gold -- you know who you are -- gets his/her 4th or 5th premium plot.

There's got to be a viable compromise in their somewhere, but I'll be darned if I know what it is.

Definition of premium plot: Outstanding location, big enough for machines, houses AND some trees and fountains (75x75 and up).

Also, there is nothing wrong with novian farming. I'd do it myself if I could afford to in order to finish my own machines. At least I'm actively playing and the guy whose plot I deconned is off in another land.

[Salis]

If I may add my 2 copper to this thread.

I feel that each account be it a long standing player of a server or a Veteran of Unity or a newcomer has equals rights on obtaining property . In other threads we have seen advocates for both sides. I understand the longing of Unity player to reobtain their former property. But I equally understand the yearning of a Chaos or Order player to obtain that long coveted but never purchaseable property. Aswell as letting a newcomer have a chance at owning a premium plot.

So I propose a auction system with the following rules.
1. Each property is a mini auction on itself.
2. Any account avatar is eligible to enter a property auction by placing the Empire's price for said property in escrow.
3. Any character can enter several property auctions at once. However you cannot give preference to properties. You cannot determine an preference order!
4. Those accounts which are allowed multiple property slots can enter an auctions as many times as they have property vacancies left. But need to do this with several characters as a character can only enter an auction once.
So you can enter an auction with ten characters but with only two vacancies you have a double chance of winning that auction.
The same goes for those only having one property slot open.
You can use four characters to enter the same auction. But you actually have only one chance to win that auction. (The number of bidders for an auction is the total number of vacancy slots per account bidding.) If you do win that auction the computer will determine as winner a random character out of all the characters you entered with. So there is really no need to enter more characters for the same auction than that you have available property slots.

I know this may seem unfair to some, but what will a person stop from making multiple accounts? Yes this is beneficial to those willing to pay for multiple accounts but I think this is more of a plus. Altough you may begrudge those with lots of money in real life, they also pay multiple subscriptions which means more money for Virtrium and enhances the surviveability of your favorite game.

5. If you enter multiple auctions with your character/account, you only need to place in escrow the biggest price value of all the properties you enter the auction of, thus keeping the amount of gold you need to gather to a minimum. (Per character of course!)

6. Also all auctions need to be dealt with in one big swoop. No multiple waves please. Every plot is reclaimed and the distribution is done at one certain period. Keeping the tension to a minimum. However a reclaim can be done each month if preferred.


How to determine the winners of the auctions?
First the computer goes through the array of all the auctions and calculates the number of auctionbidders. Remember if the number of characters on an account bidding is greater than the number of open slots, the number of open slots is taken as number of entries, if you enter with less characters than amount of open slots, the number of characters is taken as number of entries. It generates short lists of auctions for each different amount of bidders.
So auctions with 10 bidders are grouped and those with 9....

The auction group with the highest amount of bidders goes first.
A random auction is picked from that group.
A random winner is determined for that auction.
The winner gets assigned the plot to the character that bid in the auction.
If you have multiple characters bidding on the same property a character is picked at random. If any money is escrow is left after deducting the price for the plot it gets returned to that character.
A check is done if the max numbers of plots for the auction winning account has been reached.
If so: That account's character(s) is(are) stripped from any auctions that account entered and those accounts are reassigned to the short list for the amount of bidders minus one. If no bidders remain for that auction the property it is put back on the market.
If the winning account still has property vacancies only the character is stripped from any auctions that character entered and those auctions are reassigned to the short list for the amount of bidders minus one. If no bidders remain for that auction the property it is put back on the market.
Again the cycle commences.
In the group of auctions with the highest amount of bidders a random auction is picked and a winner determined.
The same checks are made.
This continues until each auction has a determined winner or is put up for sale.

For those with multiple property slots bidding with multiple characters on the same plot. Only one character can own that plot, and that character is determined at random. You can actually loose some auctions in the following way. On the same account you have
Character A bidding on X and Y
Character B bidding solely on X
Character A wins the bid on X. Auction X is over, Character B is left hanging in limbo due to the fact it has not bid on Y as well, and thus has no chance of winning any other auction.
Ofcourse if upon winning auction X, character B is assigned plot X, your A character still has a chance on winning Y.
Just be careful in how you bid with multiple entries!

In all fairness this will garanty that any account can win the most coveted properties even if it also entered one or more auctions for which that account is the sole bidder. Each bidder has an equal chance of winning an auction. You can only up your chances by having multiple subscriptions, but I see that as a plus for Virtrium. Even if it is only temporarely the at least get extra income for the duration of the plot reclaim.
Also you can bid on all properties you are interested in. The highest sought properties are dealt with first so you will not loose the opportunity to win such a premium (highly coveted) plot.

Those coming late to Istaria also have an equal chance of obtaining a property.
The only requirement is that you can put the Empire's price for that plot in escrow. And even that is limited to the price of the most expensive plot.

I think this is the most fair way of dealing with the reclaim.
It only provides slightly larger chance for those who can pay for multiple properties in real life. But that factor is better for Virtrium than having people arguing about wealth amassed while playing Istaria and never have seen the need nor the time to have amassed such wealth.

Salis

[GalCamder]

Hmmm....choices choices....

Well, my 'two copper', as someone coined earlier.....

Blind Auction ('IF' the goal to is to 'suck some money out of the economy') - the basis for this is...'HOW' important IS this Lair/Plot to ye? How 'MUCH' are ye willing to spend for it? Not a 'personal' choice...but certainly one that is understandable. It also has its 'pros', in that, it provide 'everyone' with an opportunity to bid - no camping, etc...

Proxy Auction - A Great choice (in my opinion). I do happen to think the way that other word does it...what is it called....."eBay"....is fairly decent. The only draw back - you get 'campers' at the end - but then, 'how' important is that Lair/Plot to ye? The 'key' thing then would be to determine a 'decent' end time, that satisfies as many players - in the hopes of giving everyone a chance to be there for the 'final minutes'.

Lottery Auction - The more I think on this, the more tend to like it. You do not necessarily have to 'be there for the end'...AND...you do not run the risk of 'over' purchasing a Lair/Plot (as can happen in a blind auction - spending 100g for a 0.4g Lair/Plot). However, it DOES have the potential of 'pulling' a bit more money out of the economy - as you are SPENDING right then and there for your 'Ticket' - AND - you can buy 'tickets' on several properties at once. Over all, I think this one sounds like a 'healthier' choice for all.

But then....these are only my two coppers worth....

[Steelclaw]

Interesting alternative ideas here. The "proxy" and "lottery" auction seem like they're more appealing than a "blind" auction, however, you should also ask whether or not they can be implemented -- and whether or not you'd want them implmented.

It most assuredly means new sim code needs to be written. So, that's going to take time. It's going to take more time to test it and make sure it works as expected. It will probably mean modifications to the client UI as well. This could add a substantial (on the order of months) delay to getting the reclaimed plots into the hands of new owners, as well as some unexpected bugs along the way.

So... uhm... how soon do you want a plot?

And to VI: Is reworking the auction system an option you're willing to look into?

[Pharcellus]

I don't think the auction system is part of the sim code, except to pull and push the information from/to the client. The actual auction is probably run by some database stored procedures or back-end process.

[Mearis]

I think this should be the same blind reclaim as the server merge was. No proxy bidding. Simply bid what you are willing to spend on the plot, and if you get it great. If not somebody bid higher then you were willing to spend for the plot. This needs to be fair for everyone across all timezones so blind bidding is the only way to go to prevent people from bidding 1c more then the highest bid a minute before the servers go down. Instead of proxy bidding (possibly spending less money, creating a bidding war the last day) just bid what ever you are willing to spend, and if you get the plot great.

[Fratricide]

I totally like the proxy bid Idea. My only addition to the whole thing would be about a minimum bid. The minimum bid should be no less then 75% of the Imperial price, but I would suggest that it be at full face value of what it would be if up for sale.

Auction is really the only way to go. The whole issue that has existed in the past with all the novian farmers when plots just went straight for sale is totally for the birds. It really screwed up a whole bunch of crafting areas for a lot of people without any recourse.

[LaughingOtter]

Previously, minimum bid was the full Imperial price of the plot. I don't think that has changed.