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Thread: Combat effectiveness

  1. #1

    Thumbs up Combat effectiveness

    one thing i have noticed in carrying my various arguments against the increased death point timer is that people talk as if completely avoiding death is the easiest thing in the world, with the exception of the occasional bug. This stance has alternately mystified and enraged me simply because i have found that death is unavoidable if one is going to hunt creatures at useful levels/quantities.

    however, since i ascended to Ancient last week, i have managed to gain only two death points, both of which i got because all my heals decided not to cast at an unfortunate time. I have had a few close calls, but unless my heals self-cancel, i haven't died, and i suspect it will only get easier once i have a full set of crystals.

    it would seem that, as one might expect, an Ancient dragon is hugely more survivable in combat than an Adult.

    the thing is, not everyone has a 100adv Ancient, but on the forums, combat is debated as if everyone were at least on par with one. So might we remember in future debates that when someone talks about getting multiple deathpoints in one session, it might just be because their character's survivability is lower than yours?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Shur View Post
    one thing i have noticed in carrying my various arguments against the increased death point timer is that people talk as if completely avoiding death is the easiest thing in the world, with the exception of the occasional bug. This stance has alternately mystified and enraged me simply because i have found that death is unavoidable if one is going to hunt creatures at useful levels/quantities.

    however, since i ascended to Ancient last week, i have managed to gain only two death points, both of which i got because all my heals decided not to cast at an unfortunate time. I have had a few close calls, but unless my heals self-cancel, i haven't died, and i suspect it will only get easier once i have a full set of crystals.

    it would seem that, as one might expect, an Ancient dragon is hugely more survivable in combat than an Adult.

    the thing is, not everyone has a 100adv Ancient, but on the forums, combat is debated as if everyone were at least on par with one. So might we remember in future debates that when someone talks about getting multiple deathpoints in one session, it might just be because their character's survivability is lower than yours?
    It still comes down to what you are hunting and how you are hunting. As in the other threads people have made several suggestions. My suggestion: Don't take on more than you can handle.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #3

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoberton View Post
    It still comes down to what you are hunting and how you are hunting. As in the other threads people have made several suggestions. My suggestion: Don't take on more than you can handle.
    So what of the newly 80 dragon that needs T5 comps but only has T4 scales? Would anyone like to hunt 40 Blue Vexator Fringes, 20 Veteran Ghost Vapors and 40 Veteran Abomination Chest skulls for me? Probably not, but help is often offered.

    Regardless, using this type of thinking, they should not even go in at all and wait for someone else to get the comps for them.

    Sometimes death is unavoidable. And Shur, I was planning on not ascending merely because I like the look of my adult better. Have not tested to see if she gets that horrid beheaded look yet though, but your post makes me reconsider.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Preface: I don't have any ancient dragons, nor any uberpeds. My highest dragon is a 74 adult with 300 training points in Power, 312 in Primal, 228 Tooth and Claw, and 48 Focus. My highest biped has both ratings under 20. My permadeath character is a level-20 TnC/Strength/Primal hatchling - among the weakest of the weak.

    Playing a character with self-imposed permadeath opens one's eyes to how avoidable death is.

    When one knows the consequences to death aren't permanent, one's psychology allows one to do things one shouldn't do, and one dies of that.

    On my non-permadeath characters, the vast majority of deaths are caused by little mistakes on my part that could've been avoided if I'd just been paying more attention. I am not a good fighter, and the few cases where that fact hasn't caused a character of mine to die were the results of miscellaneous stupidity instead of combat ineptitude.

    Despite that, perhaps I'm a more conservative fighter than others. I generally don't attack things more than twenty levels higher on my 74 adult dragon, and only three levels higher on my other characters. I don't try to farm, i.e. the maximum number of Giant Ice Beetles I'll fight at once is three, and that gets me pretty close to death so if I had permadeath to worry about on the character that can hunt them I'd be cautious of having even two at once. I rarely go into deadlands.

    99% of the time I don't group, though.

    The largest number of Death Points I've had recently was four, which was because I made mistakes while hunting arbotus near Feladan. Probable examples of those mistakes:
    1. Chose the wrong position to pull arbotus to, leaving myself in the midst of a path additional arbotus would wander through.
    2. When overwhelmed by more than three or four arbotus, I didn't start trying to escape until it was too late.
    3. I'm too hesitant to use Spiked Scales. With its two-minute recycle, I don't want to squander it when it's less than necessary, but I often fail to realise when it has crossed the border from wanted to needed.
    4. I forget to use Primal Health sometimes because I don't expect it to have as short a recycle as it does.
    5. Didn't maintain breezes constantly enough.
    6. Confused targeting, i.e. still having myself targeted after casting a heal or Cleanse-teched resist booster and failing to realise this before it's too late to fire off an attack that would've made the arbotus die instead of me. Or maybe I do realise it, but waste time trying to select the enemy visually instead of via the target nearest key. Or I can't retarget the enemy I was attacking before because another one closer to me is blocking the key and making it difficult to click on the right one.
    7. I didn't balance the direction of my damage output so that the opponents would die in an optimal order related to their differing strengths and amounts of remaining HP.
    "Ohoh...someone is actually trying to sell something, I see an attunement coming. LOL" - Teto Frum


  5. #5

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoberton
    It still comes down to what you are hunting and how you are hunting. As in the other threads people have made several suggestions. My suggestion: Don't take on more than you can handle.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    So what of the newly 80 dragon that needs T5 comps but only has T4 scales? Would anyone like to hunt 40 Blue Vexator Fringes, 20 Veteran Ghost Vapors and 40 Veteran Abomination Chest skulls for me? Probably not, but help is often offered.

    Regardless, using this type of thinking, they should not even go in at all and wait for someone else to get the comps for them.

    Sometimes death is unavoidable.
    Have no idea how you drew that conclusion from my post. Satyr Islands are deadly for just about anyone and I suggest waiting a bit further along than just a level 80. I repeat: Don't take on more than you can handle.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #6

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    it would seem that, as one might expect, an Ancient dragon is hugely more survivable in combat than an Adult.



    Im sorry but the difference between adults and ancient is tiny at best. The only major difference is the ancient breath wpn is really powerful and they get a slight increase in armor. The new drain strike and spiked scales are hardly that much more powerful than the ones an adult dragon would get if they didint ascend. Adults still have access to all the best abilities that ancients have (gold rage, silver strike, ravage, etc.).

  7. #7

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Xoshara View Post
    Preface: I don't have any ancient dragons, nor any uberpeds. My highest dragon is a 74 adult with 300 training points in Power, 312 in Primal, 228 Tooth and Claw, and 48 Focus. My highest biped has both ratings under 20. My permadeath character is a level-20 TnC/Strength/Primal hatchling - among the weakest of the weak.

    Playing a character with self-imposed permadeath opens one's eyes to how avoidable death is.

    When one knows the consequences to death aren't permanent, one's psychology allows one to do things one shouldn't do, and one dies of that.

    On my non-permadeath characters, the vast majority of deaths are caused by little mistakes on my part that could've been avoided if I'd just been paying more attention. I am not a good fighter, and the few cases where that fact hasn't caused a character of mine to die were the results of miscellaneous stupidity instead of combat ineptitude.

    Despite that, perhaps I'm a more conservative fighter than others. I generally don't attack things more than twenty levels higher on my 74 adult dragon, and only three levels higher on my other characters. I don't try to farm, i.e. the maximum number of Giant Ice Beetles I'll fight at once is three, and that gets me pretty close to death so if I had permadeath to worry about on the character that can hunt them I'd be cautious of having even two at once. I rarely go into deadlands.

    99% of the time I don't group, though.

    The largest number of Death Points I've had recently was four, which was because I made mistakes while hunting arbotus near Feladan. Probable examples of those mistakes:
    1. Chose the wrong position to pull arbotus to, leaving myself in the midst of a path additional arbotus would wander through.
    2. When overwhelmed by more than three or four arbotus, I didn't start trying to escape until it was too late.
    3. I'm too hesitant to use Spiked Scales. With its two-minute recycle, I don't want to squander it when it's less than necessary, but I often fail to realise when it has crossed the border from wanted to needed.
    4. I forget to use Primal Health sometimes because I don't expect it to have as short a recycle as it does.
    5. Didn't maintain breezes constantly enough.
    6. Confused targeting, i.e. still having myself targeted after casting a heal or Cleanse-teched resist booster and failing to realise this before it's too late to fire off an attack that would've made the arbotus die instead of me. Or maybe I do realise it, but waste time trying to select the enemy visually instead of via the target nearest key. Or I can't retarget the enemy I was attacking before because another one closer to me is blocking the key and making it difficult to click on the right one.
    7. I didn't balance the direction of my damage output so that the opponents would die in an optimal order related to their differing strengths and amounts of remaining HP.
    well, certainly if one gets pleasure out of being obscenely precise with their play-style, death can be avoided. but most people play games to relieve stress/relax/have fun. and a lot of people don't consider minding every nitty gritty detail about what's going on in a game fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonfyre View Post
    it would seem that, as one might expect, an Ancient dragon is hugely more survivable in combat than an Adult.



    Im sorry but the difference between adults and ancient is tiny at best. The only major difference is the ancient breath wpn is really powerful and they get a slight increase in armor. The new drain strike and spiked scales are hardly that much more powerful than the ones an adult dragon would get if they didint ascend. Adults still have access to all the best abilities that ancients have (gold rage, silver strike, ravage, etc.).
    oh really? so you mean, ascending my character to ancient actually gave me, the player, improved skills?

    AWESOME!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Shur View Post
    oh really? so you mean, ascending my character to ancient actually gave me, the player, improved skills?

    AWESOME!
    It may have, actually. With the expectation that ancienthood might bring you greater survivability, a placebo effect in your psychology could've temporarily increased your competence in order to fulfill the expectation.
    "Ohoh...someone is actually trying to sell something, I see an attunement coming. LOL" - Teto Frum


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    the thing is, not everyone has a 100adv Ancient, but on the forums, combat is debated as if everyone were at least on par with one.
    You are mistaken. Everyone talks (just see the "hard mobs thread") off his rating 150+ biped main or alt. After so many years, this is the "de facto" standard.

    What you will experience with something less than that standard is that easy mobs are perfectly doable (i.e. beetles, wolves) even in multiple amounts.

    Where you'll bite the dust - expecially as dragon, since dragons have NO WAY to improve - is at enhanced mobs that require wards, resists, cleanses and crowd control.

    Even with a level 80 dragon or 1 school biped you may survive a "statyr isle" level 80-90 mob, but those mobs are group friendly and often times hard to pull alone.

    So, when real mobs come into play, you need a real character to fight them.

    Without going for the extreme and trying to solo 3 bosses at a time (a la Galem), you will feel the difference when your character is not multischooled enough to be considered "standard" (that is druid + healer + spiritist + paladin...)
    Vahrokh Vain - Ancient dragon level 100 adv 100 craft 34M of untainted, fireworks and other crap free hoard.
    Isarion - Reaver Healer Spiritist, many craft classes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonfyre View Post
    Im sorry but the difference between adults and ancient is tiny at best. The only major difference is the ancient breath wpn is really powerful and they get a slight increase in armor. The new drain strike and spiked scales are hardly that much more powerful than the ones an adult dragon would get if they didint ascend. Adults still have access to all the best abilities that ancients have (gold rage, silver strike, ravage, etc.).
    Really, if you wanted, you could get a majority of the Ancient abilities without ascending, so long as you almost finish your rites. But yes, I agree that when I ascended I saw very little change in how my combat went. No significant changes, to be sure. The only thing I really liked was Drain Strike going from 45% health returned to 100%... and of course that costs hoard now. But hey.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Which is why i would like to see something for ancient dragons like i suggested in this thread.

    http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=18550

  12. #12

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Vahrokh View Post
    What you will experience with something less than that standard is that easy mobs are perfectly doable (i.e. beetles, wolves) even in multiple amounts.
    This is exactly the problem for me. These kinds of fights boor me, I can't stand farming, and farming is the only reason I can come up with for going after the 'safe' fights. Unless I am helping someone else I am going after fights that are a challenge. Sometimes it works out, sometimes not. Of course, I am trading a death for knowledge, so its all good.

    Well, it was all good before the change to death points, anyway.

    "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
    - Albert Einstein

  13. #13

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonfyre View Post
    Which is why i would like to see something for ancient dragons like i suggested in this thread.

    http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=18550
    <---- has maybe 4 million hoard. And don't anyone start saying it's easy to get; even with Ice Beetles, you get NO hoard if you can't be on for a reasonable time.

    Anyways.

    I like that idea as a way to make ancients stronger; however, it most certainly leans to the advantage of a handful of players rather than all ancients. But it's a good idea, and it's a start!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    It shouldnt lean to the majority of players. If you want tha extra power then it should be available to those who are willing to put the effort in to obtain it.

    And hoard is incredibly easy to get no matter what. The ice beetles are dropping hoardables almost every other fight.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Apparently, then, I've been fighting the wrong groups of beetles to get hoard, then. Ice beetles are great.....but I can kill maybe 1 or 2 before they kill me. I don't quite have the levels/fighting skills needed to stay alive while hunting them, I guess. Other than that, I suppose I could hunt wolves/beetles closer to my level, but they don't drop hoard quite as often.

    I have a 65-70% chance of dying if I try to take on monsters at or slightly above my level; this is a bit depressing as I'm now a lvl 52 dragon hatchling.
    Granted, some of this could be fixed with a bit better armor, but I usually have a fairly conservative hunting style and prefer soloing. The new DP's mean that I stop hunting after 3 or so deaths, and after that all that's left for me is craft-grinding, or maybe parking myself somewhere and just chatting for a while. Kinda boring after a while.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Dont worry within the next 50 lvls you outgrow most of the enemies in terms of power. Only some of the WA mobs can really hurt you as an ancient dragon.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    i notice that well many dragons belive spending tp in dex or str will give them the upper edge, and well i beg to differ.

    i have been lvl 100 for along time and as an adult i focused my tp on health and tooth& claw. i also got myself some health crystals, armor crystals and str crystals. with the last patch i have my teched healing spell with cleanse and recycle which i do cast every 10 sec. due to my high armor and health i had no problems taking a few elite blights at a time. i am capable of suviving fanfir;s scorch and living from agoldrage blow from relkar.

    once i became ancient i can now take 4 elite bligts at the same time and more if they slowly add. if your really into the hunt to obtain items to improve your stats id recommend adding tp into health, i have 570 points into it and well it makes a huge difference on escaping with my life and surviving a wicked epic boss attack.
    Clicky and help em grow http://dragcave.ath.cx/user/57753

  18. #18

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    I have a few tps in health, but my combat scales are on a health base so I can easily get 3400-3500 with full buffs and gifts. My armor isn't as strong, but I get 75 per scale. I can't say how well it stands up to super strong foes as I don't fight them... but I'm sure if I get 25 mil hoard it'll be even easier. Too bad that's a long way off.

    It'd be interesting to find out how my setup compares to other ones. Since buyback points come back... If I ever get around to making another set of combat scales, I'll try an armor base and see how much I like it. Then I can move tps around to make up for what I lost on my scales.
    <----clicky!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    Quote Originally Posted by Machariel View Post
    i notice that well many dragons belive spending tp in dex or str will give them the upper edge, and well i beg to differ.

    i have been lvl 100 for along time and as an adult i focused my tp on health and tooth& claw. i also got myself some health crystals, armor crystals and str crystals. with the last patch i have my teched healing spell with cleanse and recycle which i do cast every 10 sec. due to my high armor and health i had no problems taking a few elite blights at a time. i am capable of suviving fanfir;s scorch and living from agoldrage blow from relkar.

    once i became ancient i can now take 4 elite bligts at the same time and more if they slowly add. if your really into the hunt to obtain items to improve your stats id recommend adding tp into health, i have 570 points into it and well it makes a huge difference on escaping with my life and surviving a wicked epic boss attack.
    i still disagree wit your assessment that strength is as worthless as you say it is. i've found that just 20 str points can be the difference between one-shotting that blighted blight and getting chain-mezzed by all his buddies that show if you sit for more than two seconds.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Combat effectiveness

    I also agree that str/dex etc are important, however I never spend TP in them anymore, due to them being more expensive than the others. I currently put half into TnC and half into HP. My scales are/will be Armour base with TnC + Dragon Breath (not everyones idea of useful I know but it fits for me) and Dexterity. Those that can take sockets are triple-socketed and crystals that interest me are those that fit the above teched scales for stats anyway.

    My other dragons will have different setups, when I get around to playing them. None of them are set up to be 'leet', merely to attempt to have as different playstyles as you can get between dragons. I used to have pev set up as Dex/Evasion on her TP, which was great fun, just took me a while to kill stuff but I got hit much less and didn't miss that much either. I'm thinking of doing something like that again with one of my hatchies.

    I'm never someone in a game who can do all the highend stuff, but even I have been soloing giant ice beetles since lvl 75-ish, and at lvl 60 took out one WA mob lvl 80 (mainly luck ). The argument about not being able to get the tech comps for lvl 80 for your T5 stuff by hunting alone... well I always thought you weren't meant to anyway. You turn lvl 80, get plain, unteched T5 scales and as you get higher level you start adding in teched stuff. One way I levelled up so far for most of the way was to start hunting for my comps when I hit the appropriate tier level. It can be tough, and sure isn't the fastest way, but it's fun. And at the end of it I not only have a new scale to show for it, but I also gained some levels.

    I'm still an adult, level 82 at the moment, and I do remember those helpless hatchie days where even at level 50 I couldn't take much on above me, and groups of things were super scary. But since being adult/growing in levels it's definately easier, and back on Unity I saw dragons my level AoE grinding huge groups of things. It's all on your setup, your scales and what you want to do.
    Shadria: Hatchling 22/24/0 - Intorqueo: Hatchling 5/3/0 - Affina: Saris - Pevil: Ancient Lunus 100/100/57 - Zordraak: Hatchling 5/3/0

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