dragons How much is too much

[Summbuddy]

I would like to bring up something that bothers me and likly many will not like or wish to hear what i have to say but here goes. i do know that many of the characters in this game are dragons and that it is the "major draw" to the game but i feel things are starting to get out of hand. I think they are great and all but the balance is shifting. i personally believe a fully outfitted dragon
is around equivalent power to near 400 + ped adventure levels. I can remember when they got the shaft and they did for a long time but with so many additions over the years nothing has been set to balence the progression. the dragon is the most diverse and well rounded class in hz and they can craft all the items they need from 1 class. don't get me wrong i like how a dragon is a powerfull thing. but i think that is should be harder to attain. i mean they can heal, cleanse themselves with tekked spells they can make, buff themselves up, do crazy melee damage, aoe spell groups, sup rez, pull long distances, fly ,stun ,debuff (lightning breath) , and absorb enormous amounts of damage. hrmmm not much left to give.... one would think
origionally the low craft gains of the dragon were set to offset the fact that they could make so much and be self sufficient. they used to need peds for stuff.. oh wiat they still do ... food :/. but still tinks used to make their discs and when hoard didn't fall from the sky as it does now peds and dragons used to craft together often to make greatly needed hoard. alot of that interaction has disappeared. heck they even have racist slurs now .... way for the posative reinforcment btw. it is my personal belief that the dragon class is lacking one thing. earning it.

[peladon]

I would like to bring up something that bothers me and likly many will not like or wish to hear what i have to say but here goes. i do know that many of the characters in this game are dragons and that it is the "major draw" to the game but i feel things are starting to get out of hand. I think they are great and all but the balance is shifting. i personally believe a fully outfitted dragon
is around equivalent power to near 400 + ped adventure levels. I can remember when they got the shaft and they did for a long time but with so many additions over the years nothing has been set to balence the progression. the dragon is the most diverse and well rounded class in hz and they can craft all the items they need from 1 class. don't get me wrong i like how a dragon is a powerfull thing. but i think that is should be harder to attain. i mean they can heal, cleanse themselves with tekked spells they can make, buff themselves up, do crazy melee damage, aoe spell groups, sup rez, pull long distances, fly ,stun ,debuff (lightning breath) , and absorb enormous amounts of damage. hrmmm not much left to give.... one would think
origionally the low craft gains of the dragon were set to offset the fact that they could make so much and be self sufficient. they used to need peds for stuff.. oh wiat they still do ... food :/. but still tinks used to make their discs and when hoard didn't fall from the sky as it does now peds and dragons used to craft together often to make greatly needed hoard. alot of that interaction has disappeared. heck they even have racist slurs now .... way for the posative reinforcment btw. it is my personal belief that the dragon class is lacking one thing. earning it.

I know not thy age, but of respect, elder. I know not thy wit... but to wise or Wise I will thus far hold tongue.

This I would hold, though to call it knowledge might be beyond its mark. While draku be spirits of fire indeed, there be more spirits of fire in the land than bear scale and wing.

This I would hold.

The words ye speak are not new. The spirits of fire I speak of have burned the land in tides past, and it seems ye think it time again.

That one hath some thing that another hath not... what boots it? If ye would bear scale and wing, then take them. If ye would walk the many two leg schools of war... then walk also.

And I count not thy mark of match 'twixt two leg and wing. There are thrice times opinion to that as there be Gifted. But earned? I have walked a waking or so when young... flew one or three since. That which I am, I am. And only one there is that knows the earning.. and of the Lightning's judgement... that at least I know need never fear or doubt. And for the judging of any other... save that which yet Binds... I care less than the wind's first breath before the storm.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

[Deth]

I disagree that we are equal to a 400+ Biped by a long shot.

A Biped can heal better then we ever dream of.

Cleanse I think we are about the same really and any biped that wants to take cleric and scholar can do the same.

Bipeds can buff them selves much better then we can.

Melee damage I can not comment on as I am a caster dragon my self.

Bipeds AOE better and have more spells to AOE with. I think mage has more AOE spells then a dragon but I am not sure on that.

Bipeds can super rez more often, I think not completely sure, I knwo they get it sooner then we do and have more options to rez then a dragon does.

I think mages pull from more of adistance then us, but again not sure. I want to say the rangfe of our primal bot is the same as every other bolt spell out there. Also to pull longer then bolt range we have to AOE pull which can not be an option at times.

Fly ok we beat bipeds there.

Stun bipeds have a lot more stun options and some of them are ranged.

Debuff We can depuff our two damage types, I am not sure if Bipeds can do this or not, but Bipeds can do etheral damage better then any debuff a Dragon can do ever.

Absorb large amounts of damage. I am not sure how you see that. I think bipeds can get more armour then dragons or at least as much armour as a dragon and also they can get the same amount of HP.

We still need more then food from Bipeds. What do bipeds need from dragons? Nothing that it could not get from another Biped.

Dragons are very Jack-of-all-trade ish. They do not excel at anyone thing unlike a biped that focus in an area. But that is just my option.

[Akuluxtraxas]

Too much can not be determined in an Enviroment like Horizons due to how differently bipeds and dragons are designed. Just as a look here are some reason and past discussion points about this.

Multiclassing vs one adventure class. huge issue for scaling balance. how many dragons would adore the opportunity to level and earn more but we cant. we still deserve equality despite..how it is given is tricky and unfortunatly this issue isnt likely to change.

Flight vs non flight. self explanatory but dragons fly. flight is a wonderful thing and any dragon who doesnt appreciate it really should but without any combat ability in flight it doesnt drastically aid us in combat except for escaping. i prefer not to fly away and leave my group to die.

Items. While this category has evened out much more in recent months (tool,jewelry sockets, epic weapons) it was once a big issue. lets remember one of dragons most powerful items just received a nerf (or fix if so desired. regardless it was weakened significantly).

Stuns/Crowd control. Do i need to explain this? Thunder cloud, shocking blast, mezzes, roots. across tons of schools. Dragons get tail whip and eminence proc chances. we do get a mezz now that is useful imo.

Reliance on the other racial spectrum. Again i personally dont mind this but many despise it. how many things do bipeds rely on us for? should there be things for both sides? I dont know thats a question many can post on.

Are Dragons fun to play now? yes i love my dragon. always loved my dragon..well all 15 of them and that was from beta to weeks after live to this day. Are we very powerful now? yes we are but were ancient dragons and should be. Bipeds are extremely powerful as well and that gap closing is a good thing for future content.

What i more am concerned about than dragons get stronger is the lack of changes to bipeds and new content for them. Other than confectioner recently bipeds havent seen much and that id like to see change but as far as dragons getting to much power? I dont think thats the case and while i would much prefer to level more classes and work hard for new things i am not given that option. be pleased you are and ask for biped content not for dragons to get less content.

Rant off =)

[CallakDW]

I'd like to add another thing to the above posts, base and dex focus are both heavily gimped for dragons if I'm not mistaken, I know that at least dex is. I actually can understand the logic of this because hitting a dragon should be like hitting the broad side of a barn. They are bigger targets and have more mass to move out of the way. They make up for it with higher base damage and power, when all that muscle and mass actually connects.

Just my theory.

[Summbuddy]

I would like to add that i do not want to see dragons get weaker just have to do more to get there. maybe a higher rating while they are there. you cannot continually add to the same class and not make it harder or longer to do and expect to maintain a balence.

[Hoberton]

Oh Great!!!! This is going to be nothing but another Dragon vs. Biped thread. We have had too many of these. I foresee arguments abound. I may be wrong but probably not.

my 2cp.

[Hrough]

I would like to add that i do not want to see dragons get weaker just have to do more to get there. maybe a higher rating while they are there. you cannot continually add to the same class and not make it harder or longer to do and expect to maintain a balence.

And a lot of dragons would like that too. We would like to be able to pass level 100, or take on another class to EARN more power. There's no fun in just being handed more power when you're already 100/100/100... XD

[Casyle]

They make up for it with higher base damage and power, when all that muscle and mass actually connects.

Just my theory.

This has always annoyed me since the start. Unless things have changed recently, a biped with 100 levels in Warrior has more base strength than a lvl 100 Ancient Dragon. Bipeds either did equal or superior damage on normal hits than Casius, and that was in his str scales.

As to the OP, I'm not sure. If the dragon was going all out, in resist armor, and blowing hoarde like it was going out of style, then maybe they could do some of the things bipeds with 4 lvl 100 classes can do. I haven't hunted seriously with Casius in quite a while, so I'm not sure. As I understand it, the new dragon heal spell has helped quit a bit.

[Guaran]

I know not thy age, but of respect, elder. I know not thy wit... but to wise or Wise I will thus far hold tongue.

This I would hold, though to call it knowledge might be beyond its mark. While draku be spirits of fire indeed, there be more spirits of fire in the land than bear scale and wing.

This I would hold.

The words ye speak are not new. The spirits of fire I speak of have burned the land in tides past, and it seems ye think it time again.

That one hath some thing that another hath not... what boots it? If ye would bear scale and wing, then take them. If ye would walk the many two leg schools of war... then walk also.

And I count not thy mark of match 'twixt two leg and wing. There are thrice times opinion to that as there be Gifted. But earned? I have walked a waking or so when young... flew one or three since. That which I am, I am. And only one there is that knows the earning.. and of the Lightning's judgement... that at least I know need never fear or doubt. And for the judging of any other... save that which yet Binds... I care less than the wind's first breath before the storm.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

Beautifully said.

[CallakDW]

If the dragon was going all out, in resist armor, and blowing hoarde like it was going out of style, then maybe they could do some of the things bipeds with 4 lvl 100 classes can do.

I have to admit, it's rather easy for a dragon to "blow hoard like it's going out of style" now. I was there when hoard was a very rare commodity and anything that you could buy on market actually had a very real value to it. But now, I can get hoard by thrashing ice island and fire island, (mostly ice island) blatatnly and gain and gain hoard rather easily without spending it at all. (Sorry for adding this bit against the "dragon cause" but it is very true, hoard is seriously easy to get now, and I remember when it wasn't.)

[Casyle]

I have to admit, it's rather easy for a dragon to "blow hoard like it's going out of style" now. I was there when hoard was a very rare commodity and anything that you could buy on market actually had a very real value to it. But now, I can get hoard by thrashing ice island and fire island, (mostly ice island) blatatnly and gain and gain hoard rather easily without spending it at all. (Sorry for adding this bit against the "dragon cause" but it is very true, hoard is seriously easy to get now, and I remember when it wasn't.)

It wasn't my intent to try and say that hoarde is hard to get. I was merely trying to say that, if a dragon used everything at his disposal, as well as have the correct armor/resist scales, he might be able to do things a 4 lvl 100 Biped can.

[CallakDW]

It wasn't my intent to try and say that hoarde is hard to get. I was merely trying to say that, if a dragon used everything at his disposal, as well as have the correct armor/resist scales, he might be able to do things a 4 lvl 100 Biped can.

Mabe you weren't, but my point is that it's very easy for a dragon to give it their all, it's possible that mabe this is too easy. I'm a conservative dragon myself, and I actually get annoyed when other draogons blatently use hoard. IMO, using it every chance they get is a poor demostration of skill, any dragon can hit a button to Gold rage, I weary of this sometimes. I think it would be a better demostsration of skill to better pick when to gold rage and when to not, and thus conserve their precious "hoard". See... if it's easy to get, it's no longer really valuble is it?

[Akuluxtraxas]

If my hoard is going to be to a point i need to pick and choose when its good to use it then maybe some useful abilities need to lose the hoard cost?

Im sorry but i will not be kill slow and hold off on effeciency to save hoard its just not my way. As is a dragon using mostly non hoard damage is well..pretty pathetic on the scale of effeciency

[CallakDW]

If my hoard is going to be to a point i need to pick and choose when its good to use it then maybe some useful abilities need to lose the hoard cost?

Im sorry but i will not be kill slow and hold off on effeciency to save hoard its just not my way. As is a dragon using mostly non hoard damage is well..pretty pathetic on the scale of effeciency

It's only efficiant because it's easy to get hoard. I think it's too easy. It's pretty lame actually. If you were forced into making a choice and you didn't your armor would go down and you wouldn't be able to withstand anything, because you use your hoard too much.

[Casyle]

If my hoard is going to be to a point i need to pick and choose when its good to use it then maybe some useful abilities need to lose the hoard cost?

Im sorry but i will not be kill slow and hold off on effeciency to save hoard its just not my way. As is a dragon using mostly non hoard damage is well..pretty pathetic on the scale of effeciency

I agree. Our strength isn't high enough, so relying on normal attacks takes forever. Reminds me of using Casyle as a healer and shooting Energy Bolts, it takes forever to kill anything and it's no fun.

[Akuluxtraxas]

And do bipeds face this? no they dont and a game is meant to be fun and enjoyable to as many as possible. In roleplay of many kinds your very limited in stats and abilities but this is an MMO and fun and semi easy are the norm. If everyone has it hard then i enjoy it hard but i prefer to enjoy my character here how i wish to. Hoard is easy to get and should be when all of your good abilities use it.

How fun would a biped be if they paid coin or had mana to limit them? i remember the absolute backlash on that suggestion long ago. I feel the same about hoard and you can choose to spend carefully and I can choose to burn it at will. Its a choice we have and i hope that choice remains

[CallakDW]

As is a dragon using mostly non hoard damage is well..pretty pathetic on the scale of effeciency

My charactor focuses on primal, I believe Callak can kill a full group of creatures before a lunus can kill the same group using primal and rages. I've had high level bipeds complain that they can't even get a shot off before Callak has killed his group. No hoard involved at all. So don't try calling a dragon that doesn't use hoard pathetic, I do it all the time, with the acception of burst of flame breath.

[CallakDW]

Hoard is easy to get and should be when all of your good abilities use it.

Not true IMO. Its not a challenge, and there is no point as long as the player doesn't have to learn to use their abilities well. Might as well get rid of hoard alltogether, because it's so easy to get that anyone can use it any time. Might as well do away with hoard and make the abilities free. I've seen dragons use it to kill creatures in one hit, that is extreemly wasteful and if they can do that on a regular basis then hoard is far too easy to get.

Fun is fine, but for me at least fun only comes with a challenge, if its so easy to get hoard that I can use my gold rage any time I like then it's too easy and I get boored with it.

[Akuluxtraxas]

What mobs? Id like to see you do that to 120 mobs or 110 mobs but thats beside the point. fact is you choose your play style and we choose ours. Dont ask to get our ways nerfed for your personal preferences. And if you are so efficient why does our hoard usage bother you? It seems contradictory to me personally

As to the main thread i still dont think dragons are in any way to overpowered compared to bipeds and 9 of 10 dragons would love to earn new abilities but we dont design Horizons unfortunatly (or fortunatly depending *grin*)