The death of a REAL Istaria.

[peladon]

But again I have to ask, why aren't NOW the "Glory Days"?

I hope it does not feel like a personal attack, Silverblaze, because it isn't. I hear people say that, or something like it, all the time, and personally don't understand. Now it could be I'm biased because I'm part of the development team, but I try to step back and look as a player too, and I see right now as the "Glory Days of Istaria".

The game has a team who is dedicated to developing the game. We listen (though obviously don't always agree with) players when they speak out. We communicate actively as a team, both with players and internally. We use the best abilities of everyone on the team (meaning we aren't asking artists to code, for example).

Seriously... what am I missing here? What was so great about the Istaria and the development team of 5 years ago that I'm not remembering that makes IT the "Glory Days" and not now? And I promise, I won't be personally offended by anyone's answer. This is honestly and truly a sincere question that I've finally gotten brave enough to ask.

(And sorry to derail the thread a bit, but hopefully it still seems somewhat relevant to listening to the original reason for the rant.)

Elders and wise. My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost or found as suits the seeker.

Glory? I have known glory!

There was a tide, the first I woke. And I took me from the Halls of Waking and in New Brommel I was. And about me were many and many... so very many... and there was this chatter and that I overheard, and each shouted and called... and so much of life!


Glory? I have known glory!

There was a tide... and the land rang to a voice, and a god it was that spoke.. and it spoke that there were wings to be found, and any youngling might seek to seek them! And the land.. oh, to more than that voice it rang! For eacn and all, two leg or four, such delight... such joy... and ere my own wings were mine, I saw a drake a-wing, and the setting sun behind it...


Glory? I have known glory!

Ere those wings were mine, there was a waking, and a great company gathered.. and at the Spiral gate we took us, and each step from that first to the very bottom we ran and we fought and we died and we woke... and we were two legs and four and were were not mighty... but we were that which we were!


Glory? I have known glory!

There was a waking... long gone, and I danced in a place, and there was another there... none there save we, and those Foe we sought... and I ran and ran, and Foe gathered to me... and with them I ran, and those all about, and I took them to the one that was with me.. and we danced! Oh, how we danced! And none saw us and none was there, but at the end those Foe lay about us and from that one dance there were nineteen and more. And the one that was there, they spoke that as I came with dancing Foe to them, why they could bare see me in the midst and the very ground shook frm pounding feet and pounded Foe's noise... and that first time I was called Thunder. And none there save us... but none other needed.


Glory? I have known glory!

There was a waking, and a great murmur had been about the land, and that murmur come a whisper... and that whisper loud shout! For long dead Blight.. was woken!


Glory? I have known glory!

For there was a far shore, and about it and upon it lay many and many... and they slept, a sleep past any imagining. And there came a time when a wind moved.... and those sleepers walk among us.


Glory? I have known glory!

There is a tale I heard once... of a great warrior of the two legs. And this one.. mighty it was and past mighty. And of a time it was in a battle and near a hundred it slew alone. And a glory deed it was.


But the world is as the world is.. and a wasting came upon the warrior. And those muscles fell and the bones brittle.. and all was lost. But there was one of faith that loved them... and never would they stand aside from them and never would they cease to set word of seeking upon them.


And one waking there was.. and the wasted warrior had lain abed and no limb had he moved for many years. And he saw the one that still watched over him... and his had... twitched. Slow.. so slow... but twitch it did. And that hand, so very slow... it raised. and it reached, still slow, and it reached... and it touched a single tear that fell from eyes that had never smiled so bright.


And over time that hand became two.. a leg, and two... and the warrior walked. And it took to training and new waking.. and again it was able to slay a hundred.


But if ever he was asked, that warrior, what greatest glory was his, he ever spoke but one thing. One touched tear.

Glory? Glory I have known... but glory I know each moment woken, each word spoken. And for me, in this land I live. But not, of all there is, with eye or ear... but with spirit and heart, if those words be not trite. And least and less I am, and it may be that others think I know nothing of Istari living or istari life... but fool or Fool... for me, I LIVE!


Ah, glory... I know glory!

My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost or found as suits the seeker.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

[CallakDW]

This next is probaly going to get me in trouble but will say it anyways. Taking time away from the Devs time so a Dragons neck flap fits properly or the Scales that do not have the exact color or eyes and teeth not being the proper color or furniture in houses or Capes being seen or Dragon riding or....(list is endless), is not really important. Give the Devs time to do important fixes. Only then work on the Eye candy if it really is that important. Get the problem bugs taken care of first.

I've said before, the age of a flaw or problem should also help determine how critical an item has become, this has been a problem since dragons have become adults, how long has that been? 5 years? Under my thoughts this makes it very critical to fix at this time. I'm personally tired of looking at the neck of my dragon every time I play when I have done so for that long it just continualy adds to my frustrations. Please also note I have asked for a quick resulution to this problem by altering my charactor record which was denied in favor of a long term fix that aparently they are currently working on.

Roleplaying is important to many and I would not hinder its use by anyone. Just playing this game is enjoyable because it is a Fantasy world and that is roleplaying enough for me. But, to think this a REAL world and escaping into it is a little bit extreme. No one is a REAL Human/Saris/Dwarf - Warrior/Druid/Cleric or Dragon. We are all playable characters in a game. Nothing more.

Well it sertainly becomes harder to use it to escape when the game has problems that remind me that it's just a game, some games are very good at making you get involved as the charactor you are playing and that's what I look forward to. I play it to escape from my problems temporarily and I don't see it as extreem.

[CallakDW]

But again I have to ask, why aren't NOW the "Glory Days"?

I hope it does not feel like a personal attack, Silverblaze, because it isn't. I hear people say that, or something like it, all the time, and personally don't understand. Now it could be I'm biased because I'm part of the development team, but I try to step back and look as a player too, and I see right now as the "Glory Days of Istaria".

The game has a team who is dedicated to developing the game. We listen (though obviously don't always agree with) players when they speak out. We communicate actively as a team, both with players and internally. We use the best abilities of everyone on the team (meaning we aren't asking artists to code, for example).

Seriously... what am I missing here? What was so great about the Istaria and the development team of 5 years ago that I'm not remembering that makes IT the "Glory Days" and not now? And I promise, I won't be personally offended by anyone's answer. This is honestly and truly a sincere question that I've finally gotten brave enough to ask.

(And sorry to derail the thread a bit, but hopefully it still seems somewhat relevant to listening to the original reason for the rant.)

Now are no longer glory days because amazing things similar to what used to happen in istaria no longer do. Istaria has lost a lot of adventurers because andventuring really isn't an adventure anymore to be honest. No suprises, few widely wandering monsters, there are occasional anchors that are kind of interesting but they would be a lot more interesting if they had nice rare rewards when found and killed, as it is they and the creatures they spawn usually have pretty much nothing.

An idea that would add some spark would be unique easteregg charactors that give unusual quests, but don't spawn in the same place from maintenance to maintenance and have to be found in hidden places.

Bring back the wandering boss monsters that had a wide ranging path and collected followers... however I understand that ability was broke somewhere along the way, probably with the localized spawning which I dispise.

[Vaz]

I understand what you mean, Callak, and I agree with you. Not passionately, because I'm simultaneously playing another game where my desire for an immersive living world is satisfied. But if I were unable to maintain two subscriptions and felt obligated to favour the Istaria subscription over the other one, I'd be squarely in your boat rather than swimming beside it.

[Steelclaw]

I'll leave the issues with mob tiering and zoning alone for now, but the 'breaking of (logical) rules' could stand some discussion. Let's look at this from another perspective, and ask "why are people doing this?" rather than "why aren't they not allowed to do it?".

Consider Khutit form for now (forget about /setscale). Why /don't/ people want to use it to get into biped buildings? Does the stat penalty make them less efficient at crafting? Does it take too long to switch forms? Do they not like the way their character looks to other people after returning to dragon form? (These questions are not rhetorical, some response here would be nice.)

Realize that there's more to taking shortcuts than just "being lazy". Shortcuts are a way of coping with a problem -- an obstacle to getting a desired task done. Some obstacles are considered reasonable (such as you can only move at a certain speed). Some seem arbitray and... well, BS. Those are the ones people will try to get around the most. Sometimes the right thing to do is find out why they think it's BS, then come up with a solution that accomodates "your" vision as well as their requirements for rate of progress. Simply saying "tough, deal with it" and enforcing the latter type of obstacle is a great way to alienate the customer base.

[Velea]

Simply saying "tough, deal with it" and enforcing the latter type of obstacle is a great way to alienate the customer base.

I have not meant to say this, and I hope it hasn't sounded like I have, because it never was my intention to.

[CallakDW]

I have not meant to say this, and I hope it hasn't sounded like I have, because it never was my intention to.

I'm not sure but steelclaw's comment was aimed ad you, but me, and my desire to have obsticals added to the game that some don't feel adds anything but annoyance to the game. For instance the requirement to use Kutit to use biped machines.

[LaughingOtter]

Please, folks, try to remember that everyone has different priorities for issues they want to see fixed, and what is eye candy for one might be game-breaking for another.

As for the 'real' Istaria, as Sephie said, it's where you find it. What Istaria offered just after launch, and what made those events so special to those that were there, was exploring the unknown.

Nobody knew what was waiting on the other side of the satyr island portals. Nobody knew what lands were going to be opened up by finishing a bridge. Nobody knew what we would face in retaking Feladan. We explored those unknowns and emerged triumphant. The problem is that each triumph removed a share of mystery from our new world. Now, there is no more unknown left to explore.

There are still triumphs to be had, but the great days of exploration and discovery are past. I think that's the Istaria you're missing, Callak. Its passing is unfortunate, but it's also inevitible.

Today's Istaria can't help but be different. We have to design for a player base that knows the world inside & out. We have to design for levels of power and speed of movement that were pipedreams at launch. We can't compete with the memories of Istaria That Was. What we can do is try to make Istaria That Is a place that's just as much fun, even if it is different.

[CallakDW]

Now, there is no more unknown left to explore.

There are a lot of empty hiding holes in istaria, a lot buildings to look in, rocks to look under. All that would need to be done is to make a few new quests every new update, put them in secret places, don't put it on the release notes that the players can see and you have created new adventures. It's not that hard to do, and would make adventuring fun again to find these things. Some can be in volital places, where combat is nessisary, others could be simply well hidden in peacful places. Make the players look for the new stuff, mabe hint that it's been added but vaguely, not exactly where, heck even once and a while no hint, so some curious someone might happen to peek somewhere and find it. Someone will find it eventually, don't worry. Once and a while I look inside neat places, those empty buildings in the blight, or under an unusual rock formation that cant be seen from the sky, but I"m allways dissapointed that there is nothing interesting there.

[Steelclaw]

I have not meant to say this, and I hope it hasn't sounded like I have, because it never was my intention to.

I'm not sure but steelclaw's comment was aimed ad you, but me, and my desire to have obsticals added to the game that some don't feel adds anything but annoyance to the game. For instance the requirement to use Kutit to use biped machines.

Whoops! That's what I get for not quoting. -_-

My comment was directed to Callak as well as everyone reading the thread in general. I didn't mean to suggest that any comments or ideas brought up so far were BS and my comments should not be read to mean that.

[AmonGwareth]

It's not that hard to do

Depends upon what kind of quests you want under those rocks. You want a simple quest that says "kill 10 beetles"? Yea, we can do those every patch. You want a longer more detailed storyline that has bearing on the world and interesting loot or lore? Well, thats a whole other matter and takes more time.

And while a single one might not seem like a lot... 2 or 3 or 4 of them start to add up. And before long you don't have time left to work on other things, like plot revamp or support tickets or future events or the labyrinth.

[Raptress]

Consider Khutit form for now (forget about /setscale). Why /don't/ people want to use it to get into biped buildings? Does the stat penalty make them less efficient at crafting? Does it take too long to switch forms? Do they not like the way their character looks to other people after returning to dragon form? (These questions are not rhetorical, some response here would be nice.)

The biggest thing for me is how long it takes for khutit or dragon form to actually kick in. It can take a good 15 to 30 seconds either way. This is closely followed by the stat reduction. If I don't shift, then not only do I keep my stats, but I save a bunch of time. Generally I'm in and out of craft shelters in under 10 seconds, maybe even 5 if I'm quick. Then there's also the fact that I spent a lot of time on how my dragons look, and if there's anyone around in that craft area, they're not going to see my character as I intended due to that weird model-mesh bug.

I like khutit form. I really do. I think it's very sad that it's hardly ever used. I think it could be fixed in a significant way if the ability would just go off instantly like craft abilities do (as in the animation occurs instantly, not saying we should instantly pop as a khutit). I'm not sure if the delay is by design or if the act of changing the character's race just lags badly, but if it could be fixed I think we'd see it used much more often. As it is, I do try to shift every time I go to a place like Aughundell, but the delay is just too much of a killer to use it while I'm crafting.

If we got to keep our stats in addition to the delay fix (or as I think Callak has suggested, lose points in Primal and T&C instead), I'd definitely be shifting everytime I went to a biped-oriented place to craft, because then I wouldn't have to take an efficiency hit. As an aside, an immersive world is fine, but forcing a player to take an efficieny hit or incur inconvenience from using the 'wrong' machine is simply something I don't agree with. Let's face it, sometimes dragon machines just aren't feasible to use, especially since every community craft shelter is of biped make.

As for 'old Istaria,' yes, there are things I miss. For example, I liked having low-level creatures outside of racial cities, getting into stronger stuff as you went. The world did get a lot more artificial feeling after it was tiered. I remember running into the AoP every time I was outside Harro, mostly while running around on my first dragon's RoP, joking about how he was picking on me. The thing is, I'm glad I got to experience that time, but the game itself has made a lot of progress and improvement since that point, and I'd rather move forward than backward. There are little things I miss that I'd like to see return, but as a whole I think the game has improved across all level ranges.

The single best solution to the tiered feeling, I think, is to allow a bit of tier-mixing as has been done on Lesser Aradoth. I remember a sense of nostalgia after finding the slate field there because it was out of LA's tier. There are a few other examples out there, like Pleasant Canyon's sandstone, but it doesn't happen particularly often. Something that would help with the artificial feeling would be more quests. LA has these because T1 already had its revamp, so I expect that each tier will eventually be as fleshed out. As it is now, after T1 all I do is go out and kill things until I have a bunch of trophies, turn them in and go back out to do it again.

There is one very specific tier-mixing thing that I'd like to see return, and that's the Chiconis sandstone field. Crafting in that field is the most memorable thing for me about old Istaria. It felt authentically dragon to me, to have hatchlings making their way in crafting outside a dragon city, instead of now where it's outside a biped town.

There is at least one thing I'd like to point out that new Istaria does better than old, even though the changes have not been completed yet, and that is quests. Not only do we have more of them with better rewards, but they're actually interesting to read. The NPCs actually have attitudes now, where before every NPC basically sounded exactly the same. There was a quest I was doing the other day, the CNF sage quest I think it was, where I actually laughed out loud. It was this line that did it: "This will only take a few minutes, so please don’t wander off and don’t touch anything, especially anything shiny and/or blinking unless you have a surplus limb issue you need to have percussively corrected." It was pure brilliance, and if that's the sort of writing we have to look forward to, then I eagerly await it. Dialogue of NPCs is a huge part of immersion for me personally.

Callak brings out a good point about interesting places that don't actually contain anything and about people being told where everything is. I would like to see something like he suggests. I wasn't around (or at least don't remember being around) for the Nazderon event, so I found that little town outside Tazoon completely by accident. Walking around talking to NPCs there was a lot of fun and I love things like that. I love the lore quests. If we could get more of those sorts of things, little towns or groups of NPCs that aren't really near a portal who tell stories, or solitary NPCs out there like Kiruu (was that his name?), that would go a long way for me. I'd especially like to see NPCs who offer quests with rewards like emblems or interesting fluff items, but who need to be seeked out or even aren't always in the same place.

Lore, story and quests are a big thing for me, and while new Istaria certainly seems to do this better than old did, it still feels lacking. Definite progress has been made and I like where things are going in this department, but we do need more of it throughout the world. More lore in more places would fix a lot of the immersion for me. Where are the dragons teaching hatchlings about Drulkar? Why are there no diplomats in Tazoon who argue over policies, maybe even sending players to do surveys or deliver messages? Where are the people who live in places like Parsinia who need a brave adventurer to retrieve their catch of fish from a mean sand ogre? The quests don't have to be long. A quest that just asks you to go out and kill 10 monsters can be made very interesting if it's just written well.

*looks up at essay-length post* I didn't mean to write so much, I swear. XD So yeah. In closing, I want to use khutit but it needs fixing first, lore is good, well-written quests are good, and a bit of tier-mixing is good. But I do agree that this stuff needs to be done after certain other things. Plot revamp for example takes very clear precedence over lore quests.

[CallakDW]

Depends upon what kind of quests you want under those rocks. You want a simple quest that says "kill 10 beetles"? Yea, we can do those every patch. You want a longer more detailed storyline that has bearing on the world and interesting loot or lore? Well, thats a whole other matter and takes more time.

And while a single one might not seem like a lot... 2 or 3 or 4 of them start to add up. And before long you don't have time left to work on other things, like plot revamp or support tickets or future events or the labyrinth.

Story line quests are allways preferrable, no one will be exited to find a hidden hermit that just wants you to kill 10 of this or that. The hard to find ones have to be unique and rewarding to complete to be exiting to find. But this isn't my point

I'm trying to put the emphasis on making things to find scattered around istaria instead of allways plopping them right in town where everyone bumps into them. If you are going to make a strange or unusual quest, don't plop it smack in the middle of town all the time, make it somthing hidden out in the boon docks that someone has to stumble across, and the reward for exploring is being the first one to find the quest. Mabe put others in places you have to fight and get to. Eventually someone will find it and tell everyone else about it, but initially it's a suprise! Make things people want to look for!

Gave kudos how Balit was hidden. That was a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. However, I'm not sure when that was put in. Was there an announcement as to where he was hidden in the release notes?

[velveeta]

But again I have to ask, why aren't NOW the "Glory Days"?

I hope it does not feel like a personal attack, Silverblaze, because it isn't. I hear people say that, or something like it, all the time, and personally don't understand. Now it could be I'm biased because I'm part of the development team, but I try to step back and look as a player too, and I see right now as the "Glory Days of Istaria".

The game has a team who is dedicated to developing the game. We listen (though obviously don't always agree with) players when they speak out. We communicate actively as a team, both with players and internally. We use the best abilities of everyone on the team (meaning we aren't asking artists to code, for example).

Seriously... what am I missing here? What was so great about the Istaria and the development team of 5 years ago that I'm not remembering that makes IT the "Glory Days" and not now? And I promise, I won't be personally offended by anyone's answer. This is honestly and truly a sincere question that I've finally gotten brave enough to ask.

(And sorry to derail the thread a bit, but hopefully it still seems somewhat relevant to listening to the original reason for the rant.)

well, i guess the good old days for me was the tulga days - after the merge........
but then came the bad bad old days..........

now we have the new good days! everything changes and we must be ready for it. we stay until we can't take anymore, then we leave.

i do not think callak realizes this, but posting threads like this is actually a sign of deep love. peeps who do not care about something do not bother to post or even read about it.
but i also know that peeps can love something so much, they can't hear what others think about it and do not really want to hear a dissenting opinion about the thing.

in my regal but humble opinion, horizons is very immersive for a game. i like the exploring - going to new places i never had a reason to go before, even if it is up the ridge from the road (i can't wait to find out what the kion stonehenge is about...) - and the restoration of ingame locations and items and the endless different things players can craft (gawd, the 'crafting' in WoW sux ded donkey dink) and the no PvP and......well, everything. if something changes, i learn to deal with it and move on.
maybe its because i am a blightie - we must be resigned and open to the possibility of change every day.

if something becomes too much to cope with, i will move on. fortunately, i do not see the end of my time in istaria coming any time soon.

[Velea]

Callak, that was done with the confectioner revamp. Resources were purposely made difficult to find, that is. And how long did it take people to complain that we made it "too hard to find", that there were "have versus have nots" then, and the locations eventually posted right here on these very forums.

As for putting things in patch notes.. look at the complaints we get when something (no matter how big or small) is missed in patch notes by accident.

I do understand that you aren't all players, and you want something most players do not. However, I would also ask you to understand that the game has to be developed for the majority. If you wish an Istaria where you discover, find things out for yourself, where there's a sense of exploration and discovery, my suggestion is to stop reading the forums, the patch notes, anything outside the game, really. New content (at least some) is being added every patch. You can create that need to explore all on your own, is what I'm suggesting. Because honestly, the majority of those who post (and read) the forums want almost the opposite, and so it is impossible to satisfy both.

(And please, don't anyone read that I do not want Callak posting and reading the forums for any reason other than in doing so, she looses some of that "mystery" that it seems she's looking for.)

[Dhalin]

Not to derail, but as a quick aside:

Lem is completely possible.
Just today I took out Lem without any help. Once I got into the area, I just ran down the western ledge and altered between F10 for nearest opponent and a hotkey for /select Lem. When the closest mob was selected, I avoided closing into it. Once Lem was found, I closed the distance and used the hotkeyed phylactery. He was dead in 2 hits. The only thing even close to him at death was a level 40 mage. I jumped into the hallway, killed him quickly, and was able to loot both without interference.

Clue for you....

Helians don't have a phylacerity. Helians don't get a "one to two hit kill" on Kaa and Lem like Lunus do.

[Raptress]

Clue for you....

Helians don't have a phylacerity. Helians don't get a "one to two hit kill" on Kaa and Lem like Lunus do.

Helians do get the one to two hit kill on Lem. Lem is relatively easy to solo, honestly, though I usually die after he does when I do that. It's Kaa they don't get to use a phylactery for, but considering how hard he is to get to anyway, whatever group you used to get to him should be able to kill him. If you have him pulled out, a single level 100 ancient can kill him easily, so it doesn't really make much difference.

[CallakDW]

i do not think callak realizes this, but posting threads like this is actually a sign of deep love. peeps who do not care about something do not bother to post or even read about it.
but i also know that peeps can love something so much, they can't hear what others think about it and do not really want to hear a dissenting opinion about the thing.

Oh I do, that's why at one time I vowed off the forum and couldn't stay away.

[CallakDW]

Callak, that was done with the confectioner revamp. Resources were purposely made difficult to find, that is. And how long did it take people to complain that we made it "too hard to find", that there were "have versus have nots" then, and the locations eventually posted right here on these very forums.

THe problem here is I'm talking about quests and events that no one knows about untill they are found. You are talking about comps needed by crafters that have formulas that require those comps and that are agitated because they know somthing exists and they can't find it. You will see a difference in that.

As for putting things in patch notes.. look at the complaints we get when something (no matter how big or small) is missed in patch notes by accident.

Simply point out that from this point forward, (when you start placing secret quests), that it is intentional.

I do understand that you aren't all players, and you want something most players do not. However, I would also ask you to understand that the game has to be developed for the majority. If you wish an Istaria where you discover, find things out for yourself, where there's a sense of exploration and discovery, my suggestion is to stop reading the forums, the patch notes, anything outside the game, really. New content (at least some) is being added every patch. You can create that need to explore all on your own, is what I'm suggesting. Because honestly, the majority of those who post (and read) the forums want almost the opposite, and so it is impossible to satisfy both.

I used to explore, but after I found nothing worth exploring for, I stopped exploring, there was no fun in not finding anyhting worth finding because there was very little to be found.

(And please, don't anyone read that I do not want Callak posting and reading the forums for any reason other than in doing so, she looses some of that "mystery" that it seems she's looking for.)

Huh? O,,o

[LaughingOtter]

OK, Callak, if we hide any quests, we won't announce them