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Thread: Novians - And Novian Farming

  1. #1

    Default Novians - And Novian Farming

    In the General section, there is a thread that started as a solicitation of ideas regarding whether to work the reclaims as auctions or straight selling of land.

    That thread evolved (devolved?) into a discussion of novians, and the farming of same.

    If the general idea is to stop novian farming altogether (i.e. You are only allowed to use novians that you either built, or paid to have built, on plots you own), then I believe there is a fairly simple solution to this...

    (NOTE: I don't know what language this game is actually coded in, but fairly certain the devs that handle such things are competent enough to get the gist..)

    Add a (string) variable to the data structs (in the code) of the structures that can be built in game. The moment a structure is completed on a plot/lair, fill the new variable with the name of the owner of the plot/lair. This will NEVER be changed again, even if the plot/lair is sold to another. If the structure is deconstructed, run a match of the variable's value vs. the name of the plot owner....if it matches, give player the novians....if it does not, player gets nothing.

    This way if the player built the structure (or paid to have them built), they get to reap the benefits of their work. If they just 'bought into' the structures by buying an already developed plot, they can keep and use the structures on it, as long as they want...but if they choose to decon the structures, they don't get anything, and farming beomes a non-issue.

    Anyhoo...that's my take on it. Hope this helps.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    *sees a swarm of help tickets from folks whose alts take over plots, and from guilds wanting to rearrange structures in the guild communities*

    interesting idea, wonder if it could be tied to accounts rather than to individual characters, and if guild communities could be exempted from it?

  3. #3

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    I agree with Awdz... while it's a good way to tackle novian farming, it would be extremely inconvenient to those who don't have that intention. Some sort of failsafe should be put into place if the devs don't want to constantly be swamped with novian tickets.
    <----clicky!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by awdz View Post
    *sees a swarm of help tickets from folks whose alts take over plots, and from guilds wanting to rearrange structures in the guild communities*

    interesting idea, wonder if it could be tied to accounts rather than to individual characters, and if guild communities could be exempted from it?
    Yes, it could. In the case of the guilds thing, they would just have to add a check inside my original idea. ergo:

    (pseudo code)
    if(structure.creator == plot.owner)
    {
    give_novians(player);
    }
    else
    {
    if(player.guild == plot.owner.guild)
    {
    give_novians(player);
    return;
    }
    return;
    }

    For the account thing, they's just need to do a similar chack as structure.creator.account == plot.owner.account, although I might argue, from personal opinion that novians should stay with the creating character, and should not be allowed to be passed around...even between characters under the same account...but that's me.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    i agree with you... somthing like this should be made..

    however this game is full with people who use a mechanism that is long there. and as the devs seem to not see it as an abuse and even support and are considerate to such players. i dont think any such change will see the daylight. sadly.

    would be good for the game mechanics though if it wouldnt cause half of the player base to stop playing because they lost years of work stockpiled on these alternate characters.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Too many 'what ifs' that float around. There is no easy or simple solution that does not just create more problems than it solves.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    it's really easy and should have been implemented as they did in Asheron's Call when housing became a "macro bot" market...

    place a "time frame" (1 week, 2 weeks) etc. on the buying of a plot once you sell one.

    In AC, you could sell your home, and buy a new one right away. once you bought a new home, it started a 30 day timer which prevented you from purchasing another property right away.

    They had an annoying player who had built up an elaborate macro that would scan the "open house" list and immediately run out and purchase said property before anyone could... then sell it on ebay. he had up to 10 accounts and would sell them for real money to people desparate for a house. Once they put the 30 day block in, that stopped.

    This would also slow those that removed novians, then sells the structures to a third party, does the property swap, drops the building on their property, then resells it back to the player. The original player won't be able to buy their plot back for <nn> days / weeks.

    I doubt the game has that kind of coding, otherwise we would have quests with "timers" that say you can't do this quest again for <nn> days.
    Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
    Flatspin: Ancient Lunus Dragon 100 / Craft 100 / Lairshaping 100

  8. #8

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    I'm gonna get flamed for this.. but whatever... The solution is simple!!! Worry about what YOU do & stop trying to control what others do!! I have a mom, I don't need one in game telling me what I can destroy & why!

    My 2 coppers worth!
    Blacknite - Chaos

  9. #9

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Thangorodrim Atanatari View Post
    i agree with you... somthing like this should be made..

    however this game is full with people who use a mechanism that is long there. and as the devs seem to not see it as an abuse and even support and are considerate to such players. i dont think any such change will see the daylight. sadly.

    would be good for the game mechanics though if it wouldnt cause half of the player base to stop playing because they lost years of work stockpiled on these alternate characters.
    I wouldn't say the devs don't see it as abuse...I think that they just haven't worked out a feasible way to deter such activity, without disrupting current game mechanics too radically..some of the posts I have seen, by devs, on the subject seem to STRONGLY imply that they (the devs) would welcome a way to stop novian farming, as such....hence my original post.

    They wouldn't lose their years of work. My idea, if implemented wouldn't affect currently built structures, as in the course of implementing it all currently built structures would need to be tagged with owners names - or anything that was already built prior to implementation would be lost, if deconned.

    This way those that have farmed novians will get to keep what they have already farmed...they just would never be able to farm more, unless they build the structures themselves.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    There really is no simple solution to this problem that doesn't either 1) cause more problems, or 2) provoke player backlash.

    Considering I have one alt, me, that does most of the building; and use a second alt for deconning when I deside to move things around for me or my guild so it doesn't tie up my vault for rebuilding...tying novians to the maker in my opinion is a bad idea.

    I do like the idea of a timer, but as some have pointed out...it has got to be of a duration that doesn't hinder normal, non-abusive operations. Whether coding and game mechanics allow it, the best way in my opinion to impliment a timer is so it is active only during auctions...from maintenance tuesday prior to the auction until maintenance tuesday after the last auction.

    For a most basic timing system, one that would put a crimp in peoples ability to farm novians, but have minimal affect on normal operations...a general, always on 2 hour timer would suffice I would think. Once a plot is bought (or won in auction), it can not be sold for 2 hours...not to another alt, another player, or even back to the community.

    This two hour timer doesn't prevent a player from using multiple alts to pillage for novians, but it will require said person to have multiple accounts; and from an experience moving once...I used a newb alt to decon a few silos and guild house for redesign...a major pita when it came to running back and forth with such a small backpack and no disk.

    a timer that lasts much longer than 2 hours I think would adversely affect non-abusive players during normal operations...whether it's moving, redesigning, or helping out the guild.

    Just my 2-cents
    Spirit Brothers
    Aaelefein - Foremost a Grand Master Crafter, also a Paladin/Healer/Druid/Mage/Spiritist
    Treyvan - Adult Dragon 100A/100DC/100LS/95CS
    Skandrannon - Growing and Expert Dragon Crafter

  11. #11

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerbreeze View Post
    I'm gonna get flamed for this.. but whatever... The solution is simple!!! Worry about what YOU do & stop trying to control what others do!! I have a mom, I don't need one in game telling me what I can destroy & why!

    My 2 coppers worth!
    But Blacknite... that is why in RL we have laws... people do get concerned about what "others" do and want laws to protect them.

    In RL, I worry about my neighbor getting broken into and robbed. Sure... I can't control what the robber does, but if caught, he/she goes to jail.

    People with a "I can do what I want as long as it doesn't break any rules" attitude have all the rights in the world to do such, but then, don't be surprised when the other half that is disgusted with the entire novian farming thing backlash at them.

    It's really a no-win situation. Players wait for the gun to sound so they can do the Oklahoma land rush for novians because grinding for building materials has turned them into this... Look MA! I don't have to spend 5 hours collecting 38,000 logs for my silo construction... I can just remove them complete from someone's abandoned plot...

    Not really a flame at you, but think about this... if everyone was allowed to do what they wanted without control, nations would collapse in anarchy! If the devs say "Novian Farming is ok" and "We don't care that organized groups spread out with the sole intent of removing structures as fast as the game would allow them" then those against Novian Farming will just have to live with it.
    Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
    Flatspin: Ancient Lunus Dragon 100 / Craft 100 / Lairshaping 100

  12. #12

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Mirage View Post
    But Blacknite... that is why in RL we have laws... people do get concerned about what "others" do and want laws to protect them.

    In RL, I worry about my neighbor getting broken into and robbed. Sure... I can't control what the robber does, but if caught, he/she goes to jail.
    But this is NOT a case of robbery. Whether the structure was "paid for" by me building it, paying someone else to build it or by buying the property it stands on.. once it is "paid for" it's no one elses business what's done with it but the "owners"... My point
    Blacknite - Chaos

  13. #13

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Justa Mirage
    It's really a no-win situation. Players wait for the gun to sound so they can do the Oklahoma land rush for novians because grinding for building materials has turned them into this... Look MA! I don't have to spend 5 hours collecting 38,000 logs for my silo construction... I can just remove them complete from someone's abandoned plot...
    I'm not trying to justify anything here; however, do consider that there are players looking to upgrade (i.e, move).

    Any that do so take a 20% hit to their existing work. I can see where novians would come in handy to recoup and help them get a foot up in their new surroundings.

    It's a catch-22 no matter how you look at it.

    There's communities that will have their vital machines stripped out (near to resources) and others moving into the area will hopefully be able to get those machines replaced expeditiously.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Summerbreeze View Post
    But this is NOT a case of robbery. Whether the structure was "paid for" by me building it, paying someone else to build it or by buying the property it stands on.. once it is "paid for" it's no one elses business what's done with it but the "owners"... My point
    Ahhh...I would have to disagree and I'll use the last auction as an example, with neither plot being built on...

    Plot 1) Dalimond Heights, under 500s, think is was more like 300-400s...had a couple silos, tent, T1 GH and more importantly, a Jman Jeweler Shop...it all disappeared into someone's novian stash. I used to have a basic cost breakdown for a Jman shop, using a T4/NPC PB prices for the resources...a Jman shop was around 1,235s and a T2 silos about 250s...so for well over a gold work of construction, not even counting labor/delivery...that novian pillager got it all for under 25s


    Plot 2) Wish I could remember the community, cost was about 535s if remember correctly...there were 6x Public T2 Silos, a T2 GH, and a nicely placed Jman Clothworking Shop...again, well over 2g in construction materials that cost the pillager 25-35s to grab...

    That's pretty much highway robbery there...

    Worst of all...both locations were important to the community and crafters alike for their location to resources.

    So not only do these novian pillagers get construction materials at a mere fraction of what it would/should have cost...it also keeps construction oriented crafters from offering their services and making a some coin...

    So the community loses out in several ways when people run from plot to plot, community to community doing nothing but buying, deconning, and selling.
    Spirit Brothers
    Aaelefein - Foremost a Grand Master Crafter, also a Paladin/Healer/Druid/Mage/Spiritist
    Treyvan - Adult Dragon 100A/100DC/100LS/95CS
    Skandrannon - Growing and Expert Dragon Crafter

  15. #15

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Wow....and here I thought I was presenting a rather simple solution. I suppose my 'newbieness' is showing...I didn't know that there were so many nuances attached to this issue...

    Seeing as how it's looking that everything constructive that was going to be said has been said...could we get a lock on this thread please?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaelefein View Post
    Ahhh...I would have to disagree and I'll use the last auction as an example, with neither plot being built on...

    Plot 1) Dalimond Heights, under 500s, think is was more like 300-400s...had a couple silos, tent, T1 GH and more importantly, a Jman Jeweler Shop...it all disappeared into someone's novian stash. I used to have a basic cost breakdown for a Jman shop, using a T4/NPC PB prices for the resources...a Jman shop was around 1,235s and a T2 silos about 250s...so for well over a gold work of construction, not even counting labor/delivery...that novian pillager got it all for under 25s


    Plot 2) Wish I could remember the community, cost was about 535s if remember correctly...there were 6x Public T2 Silos, a T2 GH, and a nicely placed Jman Clothworking Shop...again, well over 2g in construction materials that cost the pillager 25-35s to grab...

    That's pretty much highway robbery there...

    Worst of all...both locations were important to the community and crafters alike for their location to resources.

    So not only do these novian pillagers get construction materials at a mere fraction of what it would/should have cost...it also keeps construction oriented crafters from offering their services and making a some coin...
    .
    So because someone got a deal they were in the wrong... hmmm.. well seems to me that you should really be hating on me. I bought a plot this last razing for 400+s... deconed a house, some t2 silos, some unfinished t4 silos and an unfinished expert shop. The expert shop had some coin on it & when I deconned I made about 28g on the deal!! WOW.. I must really be a thief & abuser.

    pfffft

    You had the same oppertunity as the other guy, if you really wanted to you could have bought those plots & then as OWNER you could have left them the way you liked them. Don't complain if someone decons what you chose NOT to save.
    Blacknite - Chaos

  17. #17

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    I don't think it's simply the issue of making a profit from deconning a plot so much as deconning plots that are important to Istaria for crafting purposes.

    Also, I don't know about your situation, but I already have my lair and I'm not about to sell it just to protect another one for a little bit, so your last statement seems hardly valid at all.
    <----clicky!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    Consider this thread as one that points out how loss of functional structures matters to the community. Granted, we make a choice not to ditch our current holdings to go save those subject to novian farming. However, when I own the key plot to a guild community, it becomes a choice between ditching all our guild has built/is building up to vs. letting the plots in question be up for grabs. It takes all of us to pitch in sometimes to make the land nicer. That is why, when the subject of novian farming & stripping of plots commonly used by the community comes up, some of us get very upset at the mere thought.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    While it may not apply to your situation Summer, consider the extreme:

    Someone buys a plot razes it to the ground and makes some 4 gold on that plot by deconning some unfinished structures and a ton of expert shops. It's in a key area for T5 stone and metal and there are no other shops nearby. (there's only ONE place to get T5 stone BTW. Not sure if there's another place for metal.)

    There is no way to rebuild the shop without T5, so now the community has to spend a ton of time carting it elsewhere and forging it for processing and slowly rebuilds those much needed expert shops in a key area.

    This takes a month, maybe longer due to location, time and the number of people availible to work on it. More time to rebuild the silos and anything else essential that was on that plot.

    In the meantime no one has easy access to anything T5 or needing T5.

    So because someone wanted 4G, the rest of the community suffers and in some small part the entire game is affected for a long period of time. Sometimes it's not all about me me me. Sometimes you need to look at the whole.

    As to why someone can't save it, perhaps they already own a key plot. One person cannot save the world from one who has no plot and can go razing as they please because that is thier choice. Even if one plot is saved, there are still others.
    Last edited by Shian; August 24th, 2008 at 04:57 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Novians - And Novian Farming

    The expert shop had some coin on it & when I deconned I made about 28g on the deal!! WOW.. I must really be a thief & abuser.
    No, actually, I don't call YOU the theif and abuser.

    I call the system that allows such exploitation of others hard work something that needs to be changed.

    The fact that you were able to grab another player's money, money that was placed to pay people to build the plot - to me is wrong. Even more wrong than the idea of a single person deconning an entire community in an afternoon. THough that's wrong enough.

    I mean its not "robbery" in that someone who does this at any point in time is a morally inept theif or something.

    Because honestly, any new player to the game would not necessarily have any clue that the community frowned upon this, and have a free for all at the right time. So to me its not everyone doing it is "bad bad person!"

    Its more that obviously the system, like in RL, is setup TO be abused and taken advantage of. And just like in RL - you prefer to tie up those holes as much as you can without limiting TOO MUCH the ones not abusing the system.

    Yes, this is a "lose lose" situation in that some people wanting to help a friend or guild might have that option taken away from them. But those "losing"sides may not be equal.

    But again, as I said in the other thread - If its determined by the community that the "loss" of communities at certain periods of time is greater than the "loss" of the choice of the "helpers" - then to me the devs should respond with what can (as in what is possible) to be done.

    Heck, maybe its a mechanic that really needs to only be "flipped on" when we have major plot reclamations. Maybe on a more "regular turnover" basis its not as big of a deal.

    I like the idea of limiting timers (I think having them be a day or two, or long enough to outlast auctions or whatever would be better - those who want to help people or guildies will just hve to plan a bit more ahead). I also like the idea of binding a plot to the buyer and anyone who buys afterwards can only say recon a certain percentage of what THEY did NOT build (25% or 40%) that way it would be less attractive for them to do so, and there would still be structures left...

    But no, sorry, the mechanic that allows you to use another player's hard work and even more so their earned money..is not a good one.
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

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