Gatherer - The root of all evil

[Mensar]

[Disclaimer]Let me start by saying I won't be held accountable for any previous posts on this subject since bringing this up again (as I'm sure it's been brought up) will likely result in squeaky-wheel syndrome at some point. [/Disclaimer]

Having said that..

My biped (Gweebus) started construction classes.. all five of them at level one. I also started two helpers that were level 1 gatherers.

Fast forward two weeks.

Gweebus is now 20-25 in every construction class. My gatherers.. are level 16 and barely that. ANd that's after almost 100 trips each to the gatherer trainer doing "craft 15" for the pathetic 500 exp per trip deal and you don't even get any tokens.

So here's are the various suggestions in no specific order.. if any ONE of these gets implemented I think gatherer will be much more viable:

1. Give gatherer some type of secondary skill like metalworking or stoneworking or something that will allow them to actually MAKE things.. they get the strong ability to deconstruct things (salvaging I think).. but what good is that if they're not capable of deconstructing anything?

2. Boost (and I mean like 3x or more) the exp for the gatherer turn-ins. at 500 exp per turn in.. with 14K for level 16 and obviously more for the rest till 20.. that's too many trips.. just for level 16, more for 17, more for 18, more for 19 and even more still to finally get to 20 where I can start turn-in quests for T2 vs. "create 15" ones.

3. Make "turn in" quests (the ones where they don't care where you got it from, you just turn it in) stretch the full breadth of gathering not just the first half of a tier.

4. Make "turn in" quests call for greater quantities for greater exp (same amount, but less trips) in conjunction with the lower amounts. I.E. asking for 500 raw essence would take the place of asking for 50 at a time and would net 10x the amount of the 50 (speeds things up).

5. Give some tokens? Just because gatherer doesn't actually MAKE anything doesn't mean we can't use the tokens for something else. Or, better yet, have them give IBMs so we can buy techs. Or just take out the gift of money and just add more exp (see number 1).

Any one or combination (OR ALL!) of these would, in my humble opinion, make Gatherer a much better and viable line of crafting.

The bottom line is.. any other class (besides maybe Miner, I have no experience with that one) you get exp for processing raw materials, you get exp for fashioning an item relating to the skills you use for that class, you get exp for deconstructing or, for construction classes, for placing the item. The exp you get involves at least 3 sources in any case.

Gatherer focuses on one source, processing raw materials. So that one should be equal (or at least balanced) when compared to the others teaching the same skills. If it can't be due to coding issues, we need to find some way to make it at least somewhat balanced with the exp you get with other classes.

I'm sure this is an age-old argument or suggestion. But given how well the devs listen on here, I can't imagine why a rational suggestion for a broken class wouldn't be at least considered

I've heard the suggestion to "bootstrap" with another class but that doesn't solve the exp issues with the class by itself.

[Vlisson]

gatherer and miner class is fine

maybe they would have a better place in the world if it would give the primary skill system

but if you dont like to be gatherer than dont join this school! you dont need it really

[rizo/nawkia]

2 weeks and only level 16 -.-.. quit doing the quests the regular xp is so much better.. and they are the hardest classes because they are the best classes (in a gathering base materials sense) they get max at gathering all the resources and making them

[Summerbreeze]

1. Give gatherer some type of secondary skill like metalworking or stoneworking or something that will allow them to actually MAKE things.. they get the strong ability to deconstruct things (salvaging I think).. but what good is that if they're not capable of deconstructing anything?

As much as I hate lvling gatherer (mine is 87) Miner gets no extra way to lvl.. gatherer is not alone.

5. Give some tokens? Just because gatherer doesn't actually MAKE anything doesn't mean we can't use the tokens for something else. Or, better yet, have them give IBMs so we can buy techs. Or just take out the gift of money and just add more exp (see number 1).

Gatherer does not need tokens as they can buy all their forms for coin. Does not need IBM's because they can't make anything that requires techs. Again I point to miner as well.

Gatherer & Miner were designed to make other crafting classes easier by making you more efficient working with the RAW materials. They were not designed to work with processed materials & to change that now, would be IMHO, a slap in the face to those who worked it hard the way it was intended.

[LaughingOtter]

Hey, Mensar...

Tannins.

[Mensar]

gatherer and miner class is fine

maybe they would have a better place in the world if it would give the primary skill system

but if you dont like to be gatherer than dont join this school! you dont need it really

Ahh.. the proverbial "It's fine". It's good that you feel that way, but that doesn't fix them.

Yes, I need a class that gives wood and cloth gathering and refining at the same time. For whatever I need it for, it should function as it's supposed to.

[Mensar]

2 weeks and only level 16 -.-.. quit doing the quests the regular xp is so much better.. and they are the hardest classes because they are the best classes (in a gathering base materials sense) they get max at gathering all the resources and making them

I only did the quests for about 4 hours when they meant something.. but as I got higher into the level, it wasn't worth it anymore to make 30, 40, 50 trips to get a level.

I definitely agree, the exp is terrible compared to the other classes.

As far as processing being worth more.. for a full disk and full inventory of unprocessed material I get 386 exp. So.. not really worth more.. at all.

And yes, it's the best class for gathering, but let's put that into perspective. You have a class that gives 8 logging/lumbering (for ease of math) which is 20% less than you get per level of gathering.
So let's make gathering get 20% less exp than that crafting class per unit of resource. I'd be happy as heck with that! Would be much much much faster at 20% less than the other classes. Right now, per load, I would say it's roughly 90% or more less than a load of the same material for any other class.

I would say it's a serious balance issue to have a class that levels at roughly 9% (optimistic estimate) of what the others do.

Heck, they could just lower the exp requirements per level for gathering to 50% of what the other classes require and that will help plenty coupled with the turn in quests spanning the whole tier instead of just the lower end.

The thing people aren't seeing here (especially folks that have done gatherer) is that they haven't done the class independently.. they've bootstrapped it from other, easier to get, classes. That's a bandaid. I'm suggesting actual fixes.

[Mensar]

Hey, Mensar...

Tannins.

What's a Tannins?

[Shian]

II would say it's a serious balance issue to have a class that levels at roughly 9% (optimistic estimate) of what the others do.

That's because it's an extremely powerful class that affects all others. Of course it's going to be more difficult or you'd be able to get every other class to 100 within a week no matter what it is because gatherer affects all of them. You're not looking at the whole picture when trying to form an argument about balance.

There's also the sillyness of gatherer getting xp for doing something else. Uh-huh. I'm going to be 100 gatherer by standing at a forge making tools.

[LaughingOtter]

What's a Tannins?

XP by the bucketfull.

[Mensar]

That's because it's an extremely powerful class that affects all others. Of course it's going to be more difficult or you'd be able to get every other class to 100 within a week no matter what it is because gatherer affects all of them. You're not looking at the whole picture when trying to form an argument about balance.

There's also the sillyness of gatherer getting xp for doing something else. Uh-huh. I'm going to be 100 gatherer by standing at a forge making tools.

And yet I can become at proficient fitter by making tools. And a proficient essence structurer by making spells.

It's all interrelated.

I think you're right though.. balance is an issue. I can't level blacksmith or outfitter or scholar to 100 in a few weeks and then use it to level everything else that uses those gathering skills.

Well.. actually I can.

It's the same thing only those classes are easy as pie to level. Granted, gatherer gets 2 whole points more in some aspects than they do. That's why I'm saying less exp, but definitely more than it gets now.

[Guaran]

Those 2 schools are harder to get started in. Especially if they are the first and only schools on low adv level toons.

To make things easier:
level up an adv school to at least double the crafter schools level. Best to get it to 100. Wear t5 teched padded ironsilk (any school can wear this, including adv schools even mage or sorc, etc.). Recommend healer or cleric so you can self buff, enhance, and surge with T5 buffs, 5 gift slots.

Now you will have a base skill level boosted up into max efficiencies alot sooner, if not immediately even as a lvl 1 miner or gatherer. At least for tier 1 materials.

Secondary suggestion: Level blacksmith (for miner) or outfitter (for gatherer) to get higher base processing skills in place. Once at least a few hundred skill in say tanning, essence shaping, etc is there, you can be getting max exp and maybe even work tier 2 materials and leveling will go faster.


Also remember that these are 2 of the most overall useful schools (these skills benefit almost every other craft school in some way), and therefore yes they are harder to level than other schools. Don't bother with the quests much past say lvl 7. Switch to gathering and then processing resources. Again, having t5 teched out padded ironsilk on as lvl 100 healer will go a long ways to improving efficiency. The first craft school any toon does will be the hardest and slowest to level. Top that off with starting out in the hardest schools to level to begin with, and low level adv toons, and that is simply the most difficult combination there is.

Take a break and work on all their adv levels, then go back.

[GalemThawn]

Those 2 schools are harder to get started in. Especially if they are the first and only schools on low adv level toons.

Not that it changes much, but I think this portion is impossible.
I believe that Miner and Gatherer are both specialty schools and require another crafting school and skill as prerequisite.

[Justa Mirage]

Gatherer is necessary for a great many things, try Confectioner Preparing skill. Confectioners only get 8 per level (max 800)

Preparing Swordfish is min 1100, 1325 optimal

Right now, with tier 5 jewelry (and tier IV clothing) AND and expert machine, AND a cog, AND buffs, I can get to 1113 (13 above minimum)

I also end up fishing Halibut at 1,1,1,1,1,1 (now I get 1,2,4,2,1,1,3,2,3,1,1 with my new Fishing V satchel)

Gatherers get 10 points per level for preparing. by 80th level they will match my preparing skill at 100th confectioner.

Food for thought

[Mahja]

I leveled miner and gatherer first because the more efficient resource gathering helps a lot with other schools. Processed gems and tanning to level up.

[Steele]

Gatherer and miner make any other tradeskill class exponentially easier to level because of how trivial they make resource gathering - they should be the hardest tradeskill classes to level, and they are. They're painful, and rightly so.

Every tradeskill class has specific paths/mechanics that, if the time is taken to understand and learn those mechanics, makes them a bit less painful to level.

For instance, to LO's point... have you noticed that for two items of the same difficulty (skill) rating, the item that requires more components yields more experience? A mithril bar will always give more experience than, say, a shining orb, marble brick, ironsilk spool or yew board - even though they all become trivial at the same numerical value in their respective skills. Why? Mithril bars receive an exp bonus because they require two seperate components; the others simply require one component type.

Tannin is the Gatherer equivalent of metal bars for Miner... it's definitely the way to go if you want faster experience - and you can then use the tannin to level Weaver via construction tarps, leather backpacks or hide satchels.

There is no "risk" element for ye olde 'risk vs. reward' relationship in crafting... so most development teams choose to substiture "time" for "risk". Gatherer and Miner are hands down the best classes for acquiring and processing Tier6 materials; it's not unreasonable for them to be hard to level.

As far as those gathering tasks... I'm pretty sure they give coin as their reward, instead of tokens. Most players complain about their inability to amass coin prior to the auctions... why not look at that as a positive instead of lamenting that there are no token rewards (which aren't even used by those two classes; their recipes are coin-purchased).

I'm not saying those classes aren't broken *coughdowsingandprospectingcough* but your perception of flaws may very well be more due to not truly understanding some game mechanics... to that extent, I hope some of us have helped.

[Steele]

And yet I can become at proficient fitter by making tools. And a proficient essence structurer by making spells.

...Enchanters don't get spellcrafting; I'm not sure where you were going with that. If anything, Transmutation and Enchanting are their "toolmaking" skills. An intelligent sub-L100 Enchanter will never, ever, gather standard essence from a live wisp.

Granted, gatherer gets 2 whole points more in some aspects than they do. That's why I'm saying less exp, but definitely more than it gets now.

...over 100 levels, that's 200 skill, which is the equivalent of +1 Tier. Heh, I used to laugh at snowflakes, until I realized that having to shovel a few million of em at a time from my driveway is (literally) a pain in the backside.

[Enter]

As a recent returning player...

This thread is typical of so many I have read.
Lots of experienced players giving the usual HATE (if you don't like it go away}.
A few who get lost in the Historical Perspective (When I was a noob I had to haul Gems uphill both ways).
Lastly, the teasers (Tannin, with NO explanation) or (Fish, with no explanation) in another Gatherer thread.

How about some real HELP!
This player is OBVIOUSLY frustrated by the process he has experienced so far.
What is Tannin? (Besides the cryptic "XP by the bucket load")
Where do I get the formulas?
What is the process?
Where is a good place for each Tier?

Just my 2 cents...

[Steele]

As a recent returning player...

This thread is typical of so many I have read.
Lots of experienced players giving the usual HATE (if you don't like it go away}.
A few who get lost in the Historical Perspective (When I was a noob I had to haul Gems uphill both ways).
Lastly, the teasers (Tannin, with NO explanation) or (Fish, with no explanation) in another Gatherer thread.

How about some real HELP!
This player is OBVIOUSLY frustrated by the process he has experienced so far.
What is Tannin? (Besides the cryptic "XP by the bucket load")
Where do I get the formulas?
What is the process?
Where is a good place for each Tier?

Just my 2 cents...

...Enter, I hope you just hadn't gotten to read my posts before saying that, because I really did try to give a hand by explaining the mechanics.

I explained "why tannin", as well as where to get formulas (ie, cash at the trainer), not sure what you mean by the process - other than hauling materials with a disk, and there are multiple threads on these very boards that have locations for most resources. Past that, download the map pack mod and learn to love it... it has a TON of icon markers to show where mobs, resources, NPCs etc. are located.

I admit, I am not one to spoonfeed every little tidbit of information; I fully believe in helping those who wish to help themselves. I apologize if some find that a disappointment.

[Shian]

What is Tannin? (Besides the cryptic "XP by the bucket load")
Where do I get the formulas?
What is the process?
Where is a good place for each Tier?

Mensar is no new player. If he dosen't know by now where to get formula (loot, market or buy), then I'd really start to worry about him.
Good places are specific to each server. Such knowledge is best presented in game.