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Thread: need help on lair :D

  1. #1

    Default need help on lair :D

    I'm just wondering how long take to craft a hall and is it best for storge xD
    Dragon lv 100, Craft 85, Lairship 30
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  2. #2
    Member C`gan's Avatar
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    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Halls are some of the most resource-using structures of the dragon lair system. Only difference between a hall and a lair is the shrine to bind to. Halls also take up more blocks than their lair counterparts of the same tier.

    As for how much they store, there's an excel sheet with a storage calculator here on the forums. It can be found here: http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...t=11136&page=3 and shows not only the breakdown per storage structure (hall, lair, silo, grand hall), but also can calculate what your storage capacity is for the total lair (bulk and stacks) as well as the efficiency (per block of space used in the lair).
    C`gan Weyrsinger, blue Tagath's rider, WorldProjects Team Lead Emeritus
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  3. #3

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Depends on what you think is "best"

    If you're talking about bulk, walls of silos are your best bet.

    If you want item count, go for the lowest tier of lairs and plug as many of them as you can fit. (+libraries if you're storing formula)

    Halls are not efficient for anything besides aesthetics in regards to effort vs. reward.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    I actually have a different spin on this,

    Halls, are utter hell to build, yes, but when built outclass the lair rooms in bulk and stack quite drastically.

    For example, the t2 hall holds the exact same bulk/stack as a t6 lair and is 1/2 the size and uses none of the t6 resources to build. Will you be complaining at the planner for placing it all the time while you are building it? Most likely, once it's built though the storage and utility (bind points in each one) does make you breath a sigh of relief

    My personal lair will have no "lairs" planned in it but 2t2 and 1t4 hall to maximise storage and allow me to break up permissions if I need to let someone use some stack storage... it will also allow me to bind top middle or bottom of the lair depending on what I need... right now only 2 of the 3 are built and I am not looking forward to building the other t2...

    Halls - stack - bulk - size

    t1 - 60 - 7200 - 2x2x2
    t2 - 120 - 14400 - 2x2x2
    t3 - 180 - 21600 - 2x3x3
    t4 - 240 - 28800 - 2x3x3
    t5 - 300 - 36000 - 3x3x3
    t6 - 360 - 43200 - 3x3x3
    grand - 360 - 60000 - 4x4x4

    lairs - stack - bulk - size

    t1 - 20 - 2400 - 2x2x1
    t2 - 40 - 4600 - 2x2x1
    t3 - 60 - 7200 - 2x3x2
    t4 - 80 - 9600 - 2x3x2
    t5 - 100 - 12000 - 2x3x3
    t6 - 120 - 14400 - 2x3x3

    Soraii

  5. #5

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Ahhh thanks guys I was just wondering about the hall I am build that next but hope to build a lair and stoarge later

    Guess t1 hall going be a pain to build but it going be so usfully in long term and I gain lots lv build it , I hope
    Dragon lv 100, Craft 85, Lairship 30
    [/url][br]Feed Me![br]Feed Me!

  6. #6

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    I would actually reccommend a t2 hall, you should, if you work from low t1 to high t2 be nearly if not past 50 by the time you are done.

    Not to mention the break of tiers will give you a bit of a break from just doing all and only t1... it gets tireing after a while


    Soraii

  7. #7

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    wow cool thanks i change it to a t2 then more better craft lvs
    Dragon lv 100, Craft 85, Lairship 30
    [/url][br]Feed Me![br]Feed Me!

  8. #8

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Digging up a old thread, but as a general rule for lairs and halls: it is way better to do only t2/t4/t6 based on space available and lairshaping skill since t1/t2, t3/t4 and t5/t6 take the same space and the same amount of materials but with greater capacity for T2/T4/T6
    Basicaly there is no reason to build T1/T2/T3 lairs/halls

  9. #9

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    cannot edit the post above: i mean there is no reason to build T1/T3/T5 lairs/halls

  10. #10

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwind View Post
    cannot edit the post above: i mean there is no reason to build T1/T3/T5 lairs/halls
    I build for aesthetics.

    If you have both T2s and you want a third or fouth, taking the lower tier allows you to have 4 of the same thing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Glad to see this and a couple of other threads about lairs being "re-opened," as I've just begun working on my lair, and as a semi-new player (7 months), it's a bit worrying when the latest information appears to be 3-4 years old

    Morinare pretty much neglected lair-shaping altogether until just recently; since purchasing the lair about 4 days ago, my dragon has risen from lair-shaping 11 to 16, solely on the experience of building a 3-way corridor and T1 storage chamber. I am reasonably sure that he'll hit 20 by the time I've completed these first few corridors and storage chambers.

    Thanks, Northwind and Shian for the recent comments in this thread; every little bit of information helps!

    Do most dragons doing lair-shaping switch back and forth between "normal" crafting and the lair-shaping skill as they're making materials? It really is a pain in the tail, having to gate back to Dralk and fly up to Restalroth's lair, do the lair-shaping, and gate back again to greet the craft trainer. On the other hand, I do like getting points for both skills, and, my 10-item cargo-disk DOES come in handy...as long as I remember that I can't use the durned thing when I shift back to lair-shaping (as I found out the other night....lol).

    I'm not sure if there's a 'normal' sized lair; mine seems to be a bit larger in volume per level than others, although it's not as deep, at 168x120x96, or, 7x5x4, if you prefer. My plan, at present, is to have the first level (Level 0, as the planning widget calls it) exclusively set up for storage and machines; I know I can squeeze in 4 T1 machine chambers, along with quite a few storage chambers...I haven't drawn up a plan to use T2 machines yet, although I will shortly. Is there a problem, just to be on the safe side, with filling up almost every available space with chambers/corridors?

    The next level down will most likely be the "public" or guest area, with the final two levels containing the private areas.

    For the moment, at least, I don't see a personal need to wait until I'm capable of making T3 or higher machine chambers, since most of my crafting work is geared towards keeping some items on the New Trismus consigner. On the other hand, I do note that the machine chambers are all single-level until you get to T5, if I'm reading this chart correctly...only having 4 levels to work with, I'm loathe to devote *too* much space to multi-level chambers, with the exception of Halls.

    I know there's no "right" or "wrong" way to build a lair, as they're all personal choices, but, does it sound like I'm on the right track here? Any suggestions, advice, and/or warnings would be greatly appreciated, either here or in-game.
    Cogito, ergo sum Draconem.

  12. #12

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    It's a bit worrying when the latest information appears to be 3-4 years old
    They did lairs right when they went in, or close to it-- besides resource updates/tweaks over the years, not much has changed! I use a spreadsheet dated to 2007 for figuring out lair room shapes and sizes, and it's just about 100% accurate. Lair design really hasn't changed in that long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    Do most dragons doing lair-shaping switch back and forth between "normal" crafting and the lair-shaping skill as they're making materials?
    The way I did it was I got to DCRA 100 before I ever seriously messed with DLSH. Lairshaping also became much easier when I reached DRAG 80 and was able to wear my best scales at all times, instead of having them pop off every time I swapped to DLSH. I've met people raising both crafts in tandem though! I found it too much hassle, but then, I was an odd hatchling that hit DCRA 100 while I was still DRAG 15 or 20; and Thickle only became an adult around DRAG 93. Lots and lots and lots of crafting doesn't bother me.

    I would also say that one's ability to fly (and swiftly) is at least as big an impact on the ease of lairshaping as whether one has to juggle crafting schools. Trying to lairshape as a hatchling = GRRRR.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    I know there's no "right" or "wrong" way to build a lair, as they're all personal choices, but, does it sound like I'm on the right track here? Any suggestions, advice, and/or warnings would be greatly appreciated, either here or in-game.
    Those are some interesting lair dimensions. I don't know how well I'd like planning something around "only" four-five floors, but I like the possibilities in terms of keeping the lair simple and less maze-like. Where's your lair? I simply MUST know now.

    You sound like you're doing fine, but just for fun I offer my list of things to think about:
    1. Drafting: everything is easier when you have a way of recording the ideas you come up with. I use a spreadsheet that I turned into a grid; graph paper would work similarly if you want to keep things neat. Making much rougher graphs by hand on any kind of paper would be similar. The point is that you want a way to record ideas you come up with.
    2. Purpose: what do you want to use your lair for? Do you want someplace to store all your hard-won loot? Do you want a lair you can entertain guests in? A crafting depot? Something useful to the public? None of these have to be mutually exclusive! But it's something to think about. Personally, my first few lair ideas were very unsatisfying until I sat down and figured out why I wanted my lair, which helped guide me when figuring out what to put in it.
    3. Ease: if you've visited other lairs at all, you've probably noticed that some lairs are very difficult to navigate without a map or a lot of practice. Switchbacks, hidden dead ends, hatchling traps-- Shian's maze lair in Genevia is notable just because most people don't have to try to make a labyrinth! If you use your lair to craft, you'll quickly run into the nuisance of putting silos somewhere convenient relative your machines. And where do you put the consigner/pawnbroker/vault to make it easy on yourself, not to mention visitors? You can't make a lair perfectly transparent, but you can certainly make it easier or harder to get around and use.
    4. Aesthetics: the obvious question is Lunus, Helian, or both? (Or whether it even matters to you!) There's also more subtle things: murals choice and placement is a consideration, if you even use murals at all. Whether you want more of the simple backed dirt/rock of corridors or favor more elaborate rooms is another big detail.

    Putting it all together, to use myself as an example:
    • I use a spreadsheet to keep track of all my lair plans, which is handy for me because I have made a LOT of them over time and I'm good at losing papers.
    • I decided to make myself a lair that has some storage for forms, techs, crystals, and tech comps; I also wanted to have a full set of T6 machines for my crafting, and I wanted a T6 pawnbroker because the server can never have enough T6 pawnbrokers.
    • I wanted a lair that's relatively easy to get around, so no switchbacks or long winding hallways for me! Not to mention I focused rooms the public can use towards the top of the lair, so nobody has to trek down into the bowels of my personal cave to find the dang machines.
    • I decided I didn't like how plain and boring corridors are so I tried to use as few of them as possible. Whenever I needed a hallway, I attempted to use an inactive machine/NPC room. I also have no ramps or spirals in my lair at all, relying instead on multi-floor rooms.

    Once you're thinking about these kinds of things, the best advice I can give you is to go visit other peoples' lairs. See what you like about their designs, and just as importantly what you don't like. I found designing The Glittering Dark infinitely easier once I'd see several other lairs, each with their own approaches and decisions, all of them wonderful.

    I know I'm not in game much, but feel free to whisper me if you see me on and want to talk about lairs. And I plan on paying your lair a visit sometime soon!

  13. #13

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    Do most dragons doing lair-shaping switch back and forth between "normal" crafting and the lair-shaping skill as they're making materials? It really is a pain in the tail, having to gate back to Dralk and fly up to Restalroth's lair, do the lair-shaping, and gate back again to greet the craft trainer. On the other hand, I do like getting points for both skills, and, my 10-item cargo-disk DOES come in handy...as long as I remember that I can't use the durned thing when I shift back to lair-shaping (as I found out the other night....lol).
    Heh. I did Relstaroth runs as a hatchie. XD I was waaay too eager to get my lair. It really is TONS easier if you get your crafting up first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    I'm not sure if there's a 'normal' sized lair; mine seems to be a bit larger in volume per level than others, although it's not as deep, at 168x120x96, or, 7x5x4, if you prefer. Is there a problem, just to be on the safe side, with filling up almost every available space with chambers/corridors?
    Yes, actually. Depending on where you live (where is this lair BTW? It's not the one near sandstone area in genevia is it?) you may find most of the level 0 unusable because of the terrain above.

    The secondary problem with 'filling up' as Thickle mentioned is that your lair turns into a maze. Make sure your lair is still functional. Don't put a corridor in just to fit the space when it's just leading to a silo- save yourself the headache and just have it connect to the silo. It's okay to have blank spots!
    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    T3 or higher machine chambers, since most of my crafting work is geared towards keeping some items on the New Trismus consigner. On the other hand, I do note that the machine chambers are all single-level until you get to T5, if I'm reading this chart correctly...only having 4 levels to work with, I'm loathe to devote *too* much space to multi-level chambers, with the exception of Halls.
    Do yourself a favor and plan the *entire* lair first. You may find you'd rather have a T4 something or other rather than a T2, making it impossible to plan for the suddenly needing an extra layer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    I know there's no "right" or "wrong" way to build a lair, as they're all personal choices, but, does it sound like I'm on the right track here? Any suggestions, advice, and/or warnings would be greatly appreciated, either here or in-game.
    Also reiterating to look at as many lairs as possible. The more you walk around in others' lairs, the more you find little quirks about what you like and don't like about designers.
    Mistakes are expensive. Not so much anymore, but still expensive so try to get exactly what you want in one shot.

    Also, try to have a vault as soon as possible in your lair. Sticking parts in your vault instead of carrying them makes lair building loads faster.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  14. #14

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Thicklesip View Post
    They did lairs right when they went in, or close to it-- besides resource updates/tweaks over the years, not much has changed! I use a spreadsheet dated to 2007 for figuring out lair room shapes and sizes, and it's just about 100% accurate. Lair design really hasn't changed in that long.
    Okay, good to know; I'm using the same spreadsheet/calculator thingie, I guess (one I found linked here in the forum, also dated 2007!).


    The way I did it was I got to DCRA 100 before I ever seriously messed with DLSH....I would also say that one's ability to fly (and swiftly) is at least as big an impact on the ease of lairshaping as whether one has to juggle crafting schools. Trying to lairshape as a hatchling = GRRRR.
    I'm at CRA62; I *can* do without the minor crafting xp I get for doing most of the T1 materials, but, I'd sure love to be able to use that level 60 10-item cargo-disk!! And, yeah, I can fly PDQ, so, I don't lose that much time...it's just the hassle of going back and forth I'd love to do without.


    Those are some interesting lair dimensions. I don't know how well I'd like planning something around "only" four-five floors, but I like the possibilities in terms of keeping the lair simple and less maze-like. Where's your lair? I simply MUST know now.
    I *think* I'll be able to keep the lair from being a maze; I'd prefer having it be fairly straightforward. The upper level will be the only one (at this point) that'll be at all congested, since I plan on it being storage/machines, but, even here, I *think* I can arrange things (given the volume I have) such that everything branches off a single, central corridor.

    My lair is on Genevia, technically in the Sandstone Bluffs community; it's the one that has an almost tunnel-like entrance (there's a nice overhanging rock, above my front "porch")...for the map-oriented, it's at 15360,14048 on Genevia... (Order Shard, by the way)

    I'll admit I haven't thought too much about a "purpose" for the lair, other than a place to "park" Morinare for the night....lol....didn't even know that the lair chamber had a shrine to which we could bind until I'd read some of these threads...have planned (at least, as far as I've planned anything) to keep all the "public" stuff near the top, with the more private areas on the lower two levels...Genevia is blessed with a wealth of easily accessible machines, most of which are very close to the resources. I seriously doubt that I'll have the patience to wait 'til I'm capable of making T4 or above chambers to build the majority of this, so, in all probability, the machines will top out at T2....at some point in the future, once I *have* gotten lair-shaping up to a respectable level, I'll probably purchase another plot-holder subscription, or, tear this lair down and start over

    You're more than welcome to come visit, Thicklesip...as are any and all who'd like to kibbitz...there's not a lot to see (a 3-way corridor and a T1 storage chamber....wheeeeee!), but, I'll be happy to serve you lunch.

    Thanks for the comments and advice....and, if I see you in-game, you can bet I'll be in touch!
    Cogito, ergo sum Draconem.

  15. #15

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    Heh. I did Relstaroth runs as a hatchie. XD I was waaay too eager to get my lair. It really is TONS easier if you get your crafting up first.
    I'm at CRA62, and not having any real trouble with creating any of the T1 materials...my biggest kvetch is at not being able to use my lovely Level 60 10-item cargo-disk, unless I shift back to the Crafting skill (and, then, remembering to off-load everything before shifting BACK to lair-shaping, and finding myself trapped in Relstaroth's lair, overburdened and unable to move!). The flight up isn't too bad, unless I'm dragging a disk...it's just the hassle of switching back-and-forth...lol...

    As I said in my reply to Thicklesip, everyone's welcome to visit my lair, such as it is, so far....it's at 15360, 14048 in Genevia, in the community of Sandstone Bluffs.

    Do yourself a favor and plan the *entire* lair first. You may find you'd rather have a T4 something or other rather than a T2, making it impossible to plan for the suddenly needing an extra layer.
    This is advice I plan on taking seriously, thanks. I've printed up a batch of 7x5 grids...at this point, I doubt I'll need more than T2 machines...more honestly, I doubt I'll have the patience to wait until I can *build* them...lol...I'll almost certainly be able to build T2 machines by the time I can get to them (once I've got a few more storage chambers). Where I may wait, or, at least, be willing to demolish and re-build, would be hall and lair-chambers. I'm going to try to put all of the "public" things on the top two levels, with my "private" chambers on the lower two...we'll see how that goes.

    You and Thicklesip both gave the same advice about visiting a lot of lairs; I've not done so, to this point, but, think I shall spend the next few days doing just this...makes perfect sense! Also a good suggestion about the Vault...T1 and T2 storage chambers are nice, but, I can see where having a vault available quickly would also be a huge advantage...there's a Vault NPC in Genevia, which is just a short hop north, but, still....one on-site would be even better!

    Thanks....lots of great suggestions and advice!!
    Cogito, ergo sum Draconem.

  16. #16

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Morinare_Blackclaw View Post
    My lair is on Genevia, technically in the Sandstone Bluffs community; it's the one that has an almost tunnel-like entrance (there's a nice overhanging rock, above my front "porch")...for the map-oriented, it's at 15360,14048 on Genevia... (Order Shard, by the way)
    Yeah.. you have *that* lair. It's got problems:
    http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23434

    They might have fixed that lair, but as soon as you can, you need to go in and just fill the planner with stuff just to see what 'white spots' you have in your lair. You may find this lair too small to live in.

    Don't forget that when you have pieces planned (but have not hit the build button) that you can walk around in what you have planned.
    Makes it annoying if you are prone to crashes but being able to walk around in it helps solidify decisions.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  17. #17

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Ruh-roh....

    I'll do that as soon as I get in the game...I'd much rather discover that this lair is unusable (or, has problems) at this very early stage than later on, after I've invested even more time in it!

    Thanks for the heads-up, Shian!!

    (Oh, and, I did stumble upon that "walk through" feature of the planner....was quite surprised to suddenly find "completed" rooms sitting in front of me...lol...)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    Yeah.. you have *that* lair. It's got problems:
    http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=23434

    They might have fixed that lair, but as soon as you can, you need to go in and just fill the planner with stuff just to see what 'white spots' you have in your lair. You may find this lair too small to live in.

    Don't forget that when you have pieces planned (but have not hit the build button) that you can walk around in what you have planned.
    Makes it annoying if you are prone to crashes but being able to walk around in it helps solidify decisions.
    Cogito, ergo sum Draconem.

  18. #18

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    i want to put a hall on my lair because this is my first one on blight but dont know how to put one on at the end of the spirly part but no idea how
    http://dragcave.net/image/HJS6N.gif one day we can touch the skies together!

  19. #19

    Default Re: need help on lair :D

    Mmmm, probably no response cheyenne cos your question is a little vague.

    There are many potentially spirally parts in a lair. Do you mean a spiral staircase?

    Anyhow the planner is fairly straightforward but does have some quirks.

    Basically just select the structure you want to build, add it to the design and then cycle through the potential join positions and orientations until you get what you want.

    One quirk is very occasionally it will skip valid positions / orientations. I don't know why this works but I've found going forward one / backward one with the position / orientation cycler will find the skipped option.

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