Religion - this I believe

[awdz]

Interesting question, about why attend church. To me, faith is not something that survives when isolated. Humans need to interact - we share meals, procreate with another, etc. Our spirituality/faith requires interaction with other people in order to be healthy too.

By going to church, I gather with a group of others who are studying the same path as I am, and we can offer insights to one another as to what the scriptures mean, as well as support to maintain our faith despite "non-believers" treating us poorly regardless of our best efforts to treat them according to God's will. The minister typically has studied the scriptures more in depth and therefore can usually offer better context or alternative insights to them.

Sometimes I run into situations that I'm not sure how best to deal with them, and would like advice that is consistent with God's will for us. Other times, I may relate an incident, and another person who is not involved sees things in it that I, being too close to it, could not see. At those times, I want someone who I know takes God's will to heart to help me work through the faith issues.

Anyone can be a hermit, but in my opinion, they then miss out on tremendous relationships to be had with others, and their lives have little meaning when they do not impact others in any way. This applies to faith as well.

Yes, corruption is very much a danger in any group. Religious institutions, like any institution, are susceptible to it. However, at least at church I have a reasonable expectation of spiritual renewal and new insights to bring me into a stronger, healthier relationship with God. It is not reasonable to expect that from a gathering of people who may not want to even admit there is a God.

I am reminded somewhat of another question recently posed as a stumper, and wish to share my response to it here as well.

I also don't find the idea of "putting god first" very appealing... sounds like a selfish being to me... and if he really was the ultimate architect, why would he allow for misery to happen at all? Why not just plan around it?...

Ahh, an excellent question, and I don't have a full answer 'cause I'm a bit mystified too. However, I'll try to explain where I see it these days.
Is it considered nicer for someone to do a task because they must, or because they want to? In which case are they more likely to do a better job of it?

God created us with free will - ultimately why, to do specifically what, I'm not really sure - and thus we can choose to follow God or not. God gave us instructions on how to live, even demonstrated them for us, but did not force us to follow them. It would detract from our very being to be forced; slavery is a classic example of humans degraded, and even slaves have self-will. So, to let us be fully what we were created, God allows us to make choices even when we choose destructively. Part of our being requires interaction with others, so our choices are intertwined. Thus, many can be lifted up or many can be destroyed by the choices of a few. To eliminate that possibility would be to make us less, or at least different, than we were created to be.

The "putting God first" definitely is hard to get accustomed to. I'm constantly finding myself wanting to put myself first. However, I believe that God's guidance (since God "can see the big picture") leads to much better, healthier lives for me and all affected by my decisions, so I keep trying... and trying... and sometimes I'm very trying... :-/

[aine]

<snip>Atheism may have originally been a catchall "does not believe in God", but it doesn't mean that anymore[...]<snip>

a⋅the⋅ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin:
1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism


Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

(This is the current meaning of the word. Unless some new meaning has come about in the last two years...Charys spoke correctly. *Hugs*)

[Dremora]

<snip>Atheism may have originally been a catchall "does not believe in God", but it doesn't mean that anymore[...]<snip>

a⋅the⋅ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Origin:
1580–90; < Gk áthe(os) godless + -ism


Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

(This is the current meaning of the word. Unless some new meaning has come about in the last two years...Charys spoke correctly. *Hugs*)

I think the second definition is more accurate. You can't have a doctrine or belief that fairies (and gods) don't exist, it's just a given.

[gopher65]

(This is the current meaning of the word. Unless some new meaning has come about in the last two years...Charys spoke correctly. *Hugs*)

That's part of it. Not all of it. Also, dictionaries don't aways give the correct definition. As an example, almost every dictionary I've come across gives the wrong definition of the word "radioelement" (they say that it is synonymous with "radioactive element", when it has a very different meaning). The more confuddled the meaning of the word, and the more possible meanings, the less likely it is that any given dictionary will be correct.

And the new meaning of the words Atheist (use to be "doesn't believe in God"), Deist (use to be "believes in God, but not in religion"), Agnostic (use to be "doesn't know whether or not they believe in God") isn't all that old. Older than 2 years though. Also note the capital G in all cases. They were very Christian oriented words before, whereas now they aren't.

I still wonder whether under the old definition a Hindu person was considered an Atheist, since they clearly "don't believe in God".

[Amarie Ancalimon]

What I always like to hear from people are their observations on Spirituality vs. Religion.
I mean that in a sense of do you believe that spirituality and religion can only exist together? or that they are each separate and special in their own ways?

I have found that everyone has a different idea/opinion/preference as to what they believe, so I always enjoy hearing (and being understanding of) what other people believe.

We must always keep in mind that in order to truly understand how someone else feels we must first understand how we feel about the subject.

[RuneDragoon]

I hold the 'to each his or her own' type thing. You can do what you wish and I shall do mine, and though I shall not force mine upon you or laugh at you for yours, I hope that you shall choose to do the same for I.

Sadly in my experience many don't seem to do that so I stay quiet about mine...

[Hrough]

I, personally, am agnostic.
I believe that we have no true proof for or against the existance of of a Creator/God of any sort.
I believe that religion and what you choose to believe in do not matter in the long run.
What matters is your actions - how you live, how you treat others and how you treat the planet.

For reasons I won't get into, I find I cannot and will not believe in organized religions.

Whatever - whoever - is out there, if they are out there, I hope they judge me on the effort I put forth to be a good person, not on the fact that I refuse to go into a church and worship something that I don't know for sure exists.

We don't need religion as an excuse/reason to be a better human being. We don't need to be guilted into it by some man in a robe (and I don't need him to tell me how to interpret the bible).

So I believe that so long as no one is hurting each other, they can believe what they want.

[Melanth]

Certain events in my life have made it impossible for me personally to believe in a higher power, but that by no means stops me from having great respect for people who choose to dedicate themselves to a religeon; choosing a path and seeing it through takes great courage and determination in the face of speculation, as well as a good deal of faith.

However, as an outsider looking in i also believe that a lot of religeous practices and beliefs need to be looked at very carefully from a personal point of view. Religeon itself is a good thing; it brings hope to the downtrodden, inspires bravery in the afraid and brings comfort to the grieving. Yet at the same time a belief system is a terribly easy thing to twist towards more nefarious goals by the corrupt, the ignorant and the power hungry. I believe that even in the most devout of religeons, it is still up to the individual to decide what is right or wrong, rather than the creed.

[Dragoniade]

In my book, religions are like a shepherds: they watch over a flock of sheep, telling where to go and what to do, keep them in line... using what they can give to them and finally slaughter them.

Religions are sects. Popular and well spreed sects, but still sects. If you need the stories of a man who can walk on water, ride flying horses, claim to have written the words of God after having spent some time next to a toxic bush or have to tell your people that you are superior to everyone else, then you miss the whole point.

Now, a lot of the comments have pointed one thing in common: morale. That is a separate and different thing that religion. Most mainstream religions do spread excellent morality, such as helping your neighbor, unnecessary violence, respect of others, etc. This is what it should be about. But sadly, the messages has been corrupted over the century that it is no longer about the message, but the doing and what it can profit anyone. Crusades, holy war in Irak, 9-11, Tibet, sexual abuse and discrimination. All in the name of one religions over another, while the 'core' morality of each is supposed to be about peace and welcoming.

That kind of events left me with the opinion that, while the core of it was well meant, it doesn't take much to turn the guidance into a shepherding. And people with the week mind, the less educations, will follow the other sheep right to the slaughter house.

[Dremora]

... but that by no means stops me from having great respect for people who choose to dedicate themselves to a religeon; choosing a path and seeing it through takes great courage and determination in the face of speculation, as well as a good deal of faith.

I disagree. I think it takes more courage and determination to discover real things about the earth and universe, and to face the world as it really is, than to believe in something blindly with no evidence besides a good "fluffy" feeling. That's why I don't understand how so many people think faith is somehow a virtue. You don't have faith that praying will turn rat poison into water and then drink it, do you? Or that a damaged liver will heal itself (and neglect to go to the doctor)?

Learning is a virtue, IMO.

[velveeta]

You don't have faith that praying will turn rat poison into water and then drink it, do you? Or that a damaged liver will heal itself (and neglect to go to the doctor)?

heehee, well, drem, let me tell you about the part of america i come from.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Handlers

i know and have relatives who attend the church in the first pic on the page, by the way -

these peeps sincerely believe that their god protects them from handling poisonous critters. peeps milk the snakes and drink the venom still warm.

as i see it, and have from a young age, organized religion is the mother and father or cults and extreme sects. its just the way the system works! of course most muslims abhore terrorism, of course most catholics agree or at least don't condemn abortion doctors or pharmacists who sell condoms, of course most 'satanists' do not condone slaughtering virgins and babies on black alters (okay, that last was not a great analogy, granted....) - but those who do get all the press, ya ken?

give peeps a belief system, and some of them will interpret it way way way out there!

http://www.newsweek.com/id/172653?gt1=43002

[Dremora]

heehee, well, drem, let me tell you about the part of america i come from.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_Handlers

i know and have relatives who attend the church in the first pic on the page, by the way -

these peeps sincerely believe that their god protects them from handling poisonous critters. peeps milk the snakes and drink the venom still warm.

That's exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that, actually. There was something about that on a show on Discovery Health, too. A snake handler (who was a cancer survivor, I think - which was why she was so confident I imagine) had the brilliant idea to bring in rattle snakes to her church. People lined up one by one to be "blessed" and handle the snakes, and it didn't take long for them to start lashing out. Nearly everyone there had to go to the ER. Sad, but ridiculous because it was so preventable.

[Hrough]

That's exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote that, actually. There was something about that on a show on Discovery Health, too. A snake handler (who was a cancer survivor, I think - which was why she was so confident I imagine) had the brilliant idea to bring in rattle snakes to her church. People lined up one by one to be "blessed" and handle the snakes, and it didn't take long for them to start lashing out. Nearly everyone there had to go to the ER. Sad, but ridiculous because it was so preventable.

That is rather sad. Do these people not realize animals have their own will? It is one thing to handle an animal and believe you will be safe, but only if you respect the animal. Stressing the poor things out like that is a great way to cause an incident.

Belief can be a good thing, so long as it isn't used in place of common sense and caution in the presence of potentially dangerous animals.

While I may not be strictly religious myself, I find the beliefs of others interesting.

[Melanth]

You don't have faith that praying will turn rat poison into water and then drink it, do you?

No, but i guess thats why we have natural selection :P Its one thing to hold a conviction, but an entirely different thing to believe it blindly. Religeon needs to be taken with a good deal of common sense, or else the line between conviction and delusion becomes rather fuzzy, and thats when you begin the slow journey up yonder proverbial creek, without a paddle.

[awdz]

I agree with you Melanth... blind faith can be stupidity, and it does not withstand the challenges of logic or other ideas well. A tiny seed of faith, nurtured with practical applications and thinking through, can grow into a very strong force that adapts for the best situations. It's important to guard against the trap of following a leader who veers off course - and to help one another understand the truth.

[LaughingOtter]

I think the key word there is "blind". Having faith in something does not mean you cease critical thought; as the saying goes, "Don't open your mind so much that your brain falls out".

[Hrough]

That's a grand saying to live by. We were given free will and the ability to think for a reason, and I'm sure whatever God exists would not want us to waste it.

This is mostly why I do prefer to stay away from organized faith. I'm much happier this way.

[Spirit]

I think the key word there is "blind". Having faith in something does not mean you cease critical thought; as the saying goes, "Don't open your mind so much that your brain falls out".

What an awesome expression ... that's made my day!!!

Rakku

[velveeta]

"i do not believe the same god who endowed us with reason and intelligence has intended us to forgo their use." - galileo galilei

[Dremora]

*snip*

While I may not be strictly religious myself, I find the beliefs of others interesting.

Me too. In fact I have an encyclopedia of mythology (click if interested) that includes both those that have survived today and ancient mythologies. I admit that it'd be boring if everyone believed the same thing, it's just that when those beliefs harm others and blatantly contradict reality (intelligent design taught in science classes, for example) that there's a problem.