New player with a suggestion

[LOVWYRM]

I agree with Lantua:
The best thing we have in Istaria ruins the economy: The community with all its familiarity and kindness.
I will never be able to charge someone I know, even if I never had close contact to him/her or even if I never talked to him/her, but know him/her from various chats or the forum.
Why should I? Though I`m not rich (2g in 5 years`* twinks to Galdethriel), I do not need money- if I need something- I`ll get it for free. The gold for our plots and lairs I borrowed from friends- and payed it back over the time.
Item decay will not change that: We (the long term players) live in closed circuits, where everything is available, be it cash, items or service of all kind.

I think economy could start again with low level and new players. Who could and should trade among each other what is needed. Hunt for comps together aso.

But that would mean, that the older players should not support them anymore.
Or at least not as much as we do atm.

But this is against the philosophy of our community- and might cost us new players.
*sigh* I do not know a way out..

[Sigi]

I agree with Lantua:
The best thing we have in Istaria ruins the economy: The community with all its familiarity and kindness.
I will never be able to charge someone I know, even if I never had close contact to him/her or even if I never talked to him/her, but know him/her from various chats or the forum.
Why should I? Though I`m not rich (2g in 5 years`* twinks to Galdethriel), I do not need money- if I need something- I`ll get it for free. The gold for our plots and lairs I borrowed from friends- and payed it back over the time.
Item decay will not change that: We (the long term players) live in closed circuits, where everything is available, be it cash, items or service of all kind.

I think economy could start again with low level and new players. Who could and should trade among each other what is needed. Hunt for comps together aso.

But that would mean, that the older players should not support them anymore.
Or at least not as much as we do atm.

But this is against the philosophy of our community- and might cost us new players.
*sigh* I do not know a way out..

There is more than one kind of economic systems. The capitalistic money based one, aimed on profit is only one of them.
A economic system more directed towards trade, be it goods or services or a mixture of money and trade, like in Istaria is an other system and just as viable.

[Shian]

I usually don't ask for coin when rendering services. I ask for the most expensive currency this game has going right now.

Time. A small stack of basic resources for whatever is asked for. It seems to work pretty well. Some people agree to pay, some people don't. When one already has plot/lair and all the gear they need, what use is coin?

[Galdethriel]

Well, I try to haggle for things with higher levelled players because I think it's fun and offers immersion. Also, I can trust that they can afford it and I always try to offer undercut prices.

But I don't do that with newbies. If they want something I've got, I won't make lower level players pay for it... because it's not easy gathering the cash, especially at low levels. So I'll give them it for free, where I might try to engage in a game of haggling with a higher level player. I'd also just give things away to friends. But haggling is fuuun XD

Though I`m not rich (2g in 5 years`* twinks to Galdethriel

Awww, Lov, I bet you give all your money away because you're just too nice XD You're too nice for your own good. Someone get our friend some gold

~Galde

[Dragonboy]

I think one of the main issues with the economy is the atmosphere of Giving that takes place in game, I can request an item to be made and 9 out of 10 times I get it for free even if I offer coin to them. Im guilty of doing the same as well. What we all need to do is become greedy old farts

In Unity times I remember paying 25s for the simple crafting of triple tech scales, with me supplying all bricks/bars/orbs and tech components. I remember grinding huge amounts of Jade from field back to Dralk craft cave and on the way back to the field selling it at the pawnbroker to get myself the HUGE amounts of coin I needed to pay the crafting player and pay for all the tech components from Nadia considering I was only about lvl 45-50 DRAG at that time.

Personally I find that this is a bad thing, but that is how the economy for some players used to work I guess.

The problem is that at first everyone within the guild of the crafting player got it for free and with players from other guilds become or are friends, more and more start to craft for free to friends of their outer guild friends as well, until finally they simply craft everything for free.

You are absolutely correct that many do it for free, but with the lack of some sort of coin sink the older players get richer and richer, some slow and some fast. Especially with the removal of Nadia from game in combination with already having bought a lair or plot and having all crafting formula’s players need either by buying or looting coin simply become a useless commodity.

I remember in Nadia times I had 500s max, right now I have grown to well over 3g (and still climbing) with as only coin sink the vault upgrade (which is useless in my opinion without increased stack as well as bulk) and the portal system at 1s per portal use due to a full 1-stack disk. Right now I am growing fat on hoard and coin and with nothing to spend the coin on…

Conclusion to this long story…

Without some sort of coin sink I don’t need coin and thus I craft for free and won't help in the transformation of making us all greedy farts.

[StalePopcorn]

Most of the posters have raised the same issue - most "elder" players belong to the elite super-rich, where the money flows I consider myself "upper-middle-class moderately well-off", having played since launch and having a measly 1g lol have a nice plot and play casually barely 5hrs a week. In a great guild, know lots of wonderful people, hence I can always find a crafter to make what I need, I just supply the ingredients.

Here's a controversial thought - are we (the super-rich!) hindering the economy? Most of us don't request payment, or make it a trivial amount, when getting someone to make items for us. We put some coin on our plots, but once that's done there is no additional payments. Levelling is capped at 100 so once we get our uber-armour/scales that's done as well.

Perhaps we have to face facts - there is nothing in-game for us to buy, the vast majority of players are very kind and willing to help without thought of payment. Ergo - supply-and-demand is undercut and economy falls flat on its face. Don't get me wrong - I *love* the players in-game, their generosity makes playing a pleasure.

So - maybe we should not be allowed to make lower-tiered items! You can make items tier +1/-1 and that's it i.e. level 20 JWL (Tier 2) can make T1-3, Level 40 JWL can make T2-4, 60 JWL can make T3-5, 80 JWL can make T4-6, 100 JWL can make T5-6. Might change the dynamics a bit and improve the economy if a lvl 100 JWL couldn't make T1-4 kit, and instead an appropriate-level Jeweler had to make them instead.

Sure, there would be plenty of "but now I can't make stuff for my newbie alt/guildie!", but instead you would have to source it from someone else. Also I know some kind people stock New Trismus with newbie goodies as well because there are not enough people to make it. But I challenge this statement with: if there is a demand, someone might step forward to supply the goods and make it worthwhile!

And if you want an in-game reason:

"Notice from the Empire of Istaria:

It has come to our attention that Master Crafters are critically over-worked, to the point where they are undertaking jobs that we consider beneath their expert skills. This has created a strain on our Master Crafters and is not passing their skills on to new Crafters. Furthermore, our Master Crafters have become so busy creating large quantities of lower level goods that there is a shortage of higher quality goods available to our fighting forces on the front line.

Be it known that, by order of the Empire of Istaria, all Master Crafters are directed to allocate work that is considered to require non-expert skills in their respective Crafting Schools to Crafters of the appropriate level. Master Crafters are tasked with concentrating on creating the finest items in their respective Crafting Schools. Apprentice Crafters will take over all basic crafting tasks from their Masters."

Just my controverisal two cents worth

[awdz]

if there were enough population at each tier all the time to support that, then maybe....
i could see folks working up alts and "freezing" them at a specific tier by never having them go back to most schools once they reach the best they can at a given crafting tier. probably they'd stay in miner or gatherer for their "permanent optimal" class. then it'd just be a matter of logging in the required alt to take care of the needed project. of course, i'm not one to play alts much anyway, so it would certainly deter me from doing helpful things for lower tiers.

[Wirevix]

I can't agree with being unable to make things outside your crafting tier. There aren't enough people on the server at all levels to make it viable, and the idea of having an alt for every tier is not so great to me.

I guess I'm strange in that I have yet to see where the game's current economy is a problem. Yes, people who have been around a long time build up a lot of money. But... what does that matter? If, as you mention, there is nothing to spend it on, inflation isn't much of a worry.

I prefer the idea of people being generous and doing things because they want to, over the idea of yet another economy of people undercutting or gouging each other for pricing. Player economies get viciously competitive on all the sites and games I've seen them.

[StalePopcorn]

I can't agree with being unable to make things outside your crafting tier. There aren't enough people on the server at all levels to make it viable, and the idea of having an alt for every tier is not so great to me.

I think the main issue isn't having enough people (except perhaps for Blight), it's not economically worthwhile making goods at low tiers.

I guess I'm strange in that I have yet to see where the game's current economy is a problem. Yes, people who have been around a long time build up a lot of money. But... what does that matter? If, as you mention, there is nothing to spend it on, inflation isn't much of a worry.

True, there is nothing for "elder" players to purchase, but it is the new players that suffer. The only way they can afford a plot (which is by far the most expensive "common" item in-game, if you ignore epic items/trophies/stuff) is to harvest enormous numbers of trophies and sell them to either other players (the only real "demand" in-game) or trophy hunters, assuming that they cannot get money from selling crafted items. So they have to be adventurers. Pure crafters find it tough to make cash, because of the economy. No demand = no cash.

For Istaria, owning a plot/lair and building on it IMHO is one of the pinnacle achievements in-game. I remember scrimping and saving just to get my first 120s plot, and that was pre-PB nerf where I could grind gems and make quick money. My level 30 Miner slaved for weeks to put together that cash That and selling a whole stack of jewelry.

How did/do other people fund their plot purchases? Perhaps we need to know how people currently make their money...

[Deth]

But at what level did you scrimp and save save for that 120s? Maybe that is a problem, people should not think of plots as a newbie experience but more of as a elder experience. I mean how many 18 year olds straight out of high school go out and buy a house? I mean at 100 I can make over a hundred silver on one craft run.

If someone waits till 50 or so to get a plot I would think 1 or 2 craft runs should get you the silver you need. I could be wrong as A lot has changed since I was 50, for the better for the most part. Hunting wise I am not sure how much longer it will take. A bit longer yes, but i am not a hunter so I do not know the best way to gather coins hunting so do not know what i could make in the same time hunting as I do crafting.

[Sigi]

I think the only new player that "suffers" is the kind of player which wants it all and wants it right now! And then starts to whine about the lack of things to do.
It is not a bad thing to work a while (and that is more than a day or a week or a even a month) for something, especially as that thing is a plot.

[StalePopcorn]

But at what level did you scrimp and save save for that 120s?

I was 30 JWL/MIN, 40 CLR/SPR from memory. 120s was the cheapest plot I could find, and I ground Gems and sold a stack of Jewelry for about 2 months. This was about 5 years ago though Selling T2 jewelry (by order and on connies) was pretty good, and the Gems got me over the line. Having said that, I was very proud to purchase my first plot I then upgraded to a plot in Harro after a year or two (and a lot more coin!) and have been there ever since.

In theory, the different plot areas in Istaria are meant to be purchasable by players in that tier i.e. T5/6 in Harro, T1/2 in Parsinia, etc. That may not be the way it has worked out, but I believe that is the intention... nothing stopping people living wherever the heck they want however

If those options aren't available for a player who can't collect T4+ resources to sell, and there is little option to sell crafted goods, that doesn't leave many ways to make money as a crafter taking into consideration the PB nerf.

I guess that's partly my point - if you can't do T4, getting the money together is going to take months, and that's just to buy the plot. Affording work on it is practically a no-go. I agree that you shouldn't be able to make enough money in a day to buy a plot, I would expect weeks. But months? How many months, 3, 6, 12? And how many hours in that month? My worry is that the goal would be too far away and people would get discouraged at an early stage. We want them hooked, so they never leave, bwaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha

With the economy the way it is, there is a lack of options for sub-50 craft players to make reliable income. This is primarily why the statement "the economy is broken" is used regularly - it's not that there isn't money to make, it's that income isn't reliable.

If someone waits till 50 or so to get a plot I would think 1 or 2 craft runs should get you the silver you need. I could be wrong as A lot has changed since I was 50, for the better for the most part. Hunting wise I am not sure how much longer it will take. A bit longer yes, but i am not a hunter so I do not know the best way to gather coins hunting so do not know what i could make in the same time hunting as I do crafting.

Yeah, the PB nerf took away the cash-cow

I'm not a regular hunter, but IMHO the options for money-making while hunting are:
- trophy quests
- handing in trophies to hunters for coin
- selling loot from mobs
- selling trophies to players who want to level off the trophies (which I understand is the best way - a player told me she made about 4g just by selling trophies in three months in bulk - we are talking 100's of trophies at a time!)

Crafters are limited to:
- (barely worthwhile, sometimes not at all) crafting quests
- selling builk resources to PB (nerf quickly stops this, unless you travel to different PBs)
- selling on connies (which as discussed is rarely worthwhile)
- selling to players on assignment
- construction work (very hit-and-miss, dependent on finding out about building requirements and/or stalking MP/construction channels)

Any other hunters/crafters out there with different methods of getting cash, or different experiences? I'm in Australia, so the shards are pretty quiet when I'm on

[Wirevix]

I don't really know. I'm 100 adventurer and 100 crafter, got to 100 crafter when I was around 50 or 60 adventurer. I have never wanted for money because a lair was the only thing I would actually have to spend it on--so every copper I got I saved, and by the time I concerned myself with buying a lair--again, 50 or 60 adventurer, though I don't think I was 100 crafter yet--I had more than enough to buy it without ever having done any money-specific grinding at all.

I rarely ever sell anything to pawnbrokers, either. I just hunted a lot of aegis enemies, usually lower-level ones so I can kill them en masse. I wasn't grinding for coin or anything in particular--I just enjoy going somewhere I can kill an entire field of enemies, hehe. The most casual form of hunting. Combined with hunting a lot of monsters that drop coin purses, I never had to want for coin at all.

For a crafter I suppose it could be harder. But I don't really know about that. Because I've never seen the community as unwilling to lend money to someone for a lair or plot, as long as they can make up a part of the price. When I lost my lair to reclamation and then returned later and had to re-buy it, I had people asking to make sure I had the coin to afford it even after I'd already bought it.

[Deth]

Yeah, the PB nerf took away the cash-cow

So people keep saying but I am not seeing it my self. Slow you down yes took away the cash cow far from it. As a dragon if you can max out the 4 gem products, your either much much better planer then me for crafting or have way to much time on your hands. Yes het helps to have your own personal consigner, but i have never had a problem with the public consigners, but then I do live on Order. So I am sure it is harder on Chaos.

[Tcei]

Being a former crafter/adventurer (now am full adventurer till I make anceint ), adventuring is way more profitable than crafting.

As stated above there's:
trash loot that can be sold
coin purses
hordables/trophies that can be sold to a trophy hunter or player
many mobs drop coin.
town marshal quest.
items like crystals or blighted armor/weapons (tho I've not much luck selling these)
comps


For crafters there's really only
grinding and selling to a pb
get lucky and find a lair/plot with payed work..
and on rare occasions someone looking to have an item made.

Between the two adventurers have a steady income where as crafters dont. This is mostly because nearly everyone is a crafter on the side or as their main prefference. There's very little need to buy armor/weapons/whatever when you can make it yourself and this combinded with with high lvl players high income and little to spend on...

Maybe rather than limit ourselves to crafting within a certain lvl range us higher lvl players with more money than we know what to do with can pay for items to be made by a lower lvl character, even tho I dont need the item.
Forexample:
I order 3 sandstone strength chestscales teched with t&c I for...2s each lets say, from some lowbie character. Pay them then turn around and sell them for 50c or some really low price on the connie for a newbie to buy.
This way the lowbie makes 6s wich is more than s/he chould ever hope to see trying to sell their wears on the connie and a few newbies were able to get a really nice scale for an affordable price.

The prices of course can be adjusted to be much more reasonable acroding to the individual player but you get my point.

[lino]

Well, I am one of the newbies trying to earn the cash to buy a plot and it's surely not easy. I try to make useful stuff and sell either in marketplace or on a connie, but there are not many people who need T1 or T2 goods and often higher level crafters make stuff on request for free or put batches on the NT connie. On the one hand I love this helpfulnes and was more than once happy that I could simply buy something there, but on the other hand it makes my business even harder.

Limiting the crafting to certain tiers depending on level seems like it could fix this, but in the beginning there is a great danger of "unbridgeable" gaps (eg. someone needs t3 metal tools, but can't make them and noone is around to make them) and in the long run enough people will have alts at the right lvl to make everything and we will be back to the current state.

One idea that could help newbies a bit would be "nicer" pawn brokers, who pay more if someone sells self-crafted items from their "current tier":
If a player sells items to PB, for each item the PB checks if the item was crafted by the player. If so, it adds a certain amount of copper coins to the value depending on the players skill and the minimum skill to craft that item (eg. simply the difference between optimal skill and current skill, if current skill is lower than optimal). This adjustment could be done either before or after "considering" the PBs tier.
Of course that only works if the pawn broker can "see" the name and crafting skills of a player.

I really think the solution for this problem has to come from the community though. Higher levels should ask on the marketplace if they need goods for lower level alts (even if they could make them on their main) and maybe tip them a bit better. I know some people out there already do this, I earned half of my 300s by selling T1 goods to high level players who surely could have made those items themselves or asked friends to do it for free.
Another way high lvls could improve the situation for newbies is more considerate "filling up" of the NT connie. Before putting T1 crafted goods on there, see if anyone is selling the same and if so, use player search to check their rating/level - if a "newbie" is selling the same item, pawn your stuff instead.
I know I am asking for a lot here, but I can't force anyone to do this and everyone is free to ignore me. I think this could improve the situation for new players though and thus increase the chance of them to stay, which in the end will be good for everyone.

[Veruliyam]

I was just struck by the problem, which may not be obvious, that a person limited to making only within one tier of their current tier is...

For example, a T2 crafter can't make T3 yet, can he?

[LaughingOtter]

Just to make sure this point isn't overlooked, the attunement idea really only involves teched items. Teched items are the Istarian version of "magic items" in other games - items which are almost universally attuned/bound to one character on either aquisition or use. Sure, juggling armor or scale sets might be a bit of a hassle for folks with very full vaults, but I expect that most players who would be in that position are in it already.

I know I am....

[aine]

Won't work for dragons. If I could not continue to make low tier components, I could not continue to build my lair...the only connectors (hallways, ramps, etc.) that exist are Tier 1. I could not afford to pay low level players to craft all my tier 1 stuff, even if there were enough to do so, (I play Blight). I would guess that the same is true for plots...my biped owns one, but she is just starting out in construction.

Further, I would be opposed to any crafter losing an ability...after the months, nay, years of working to level up my craft and lairshaping, if I lost any of the abilities I had earned, I'd be out of here like a flash. My time is worth something, afterall.

As for selling things that are tiers below my level, it is necessary on my shard...although I usually just give them away, instead of selling them. However, were I playing a more populated server, where my help was not needed in that way, I am sure I would not waste my time making low level stuff to sell for small cash...what would be the point? I would make the things that gave me the most xp and earned the most gold, wouldn't you? I would, however, take great offense at being told I could not do so.

I am not sure what the answer is regarding the "economic problem"...(in fact, I don't actually see a "problem" with the game economics)...but I don't think this would be the fix. Just my opinion.

[StalePopcorn]

Won't work for dragons. If I could not continue to make low tier components, I could not continue to build my lair...the only connectors (hallways, ramps, etc.) that exist are Tier 1. I could not afford to pay low level players to craft all my tier 1 stuff, even if there were enough to do so, (I play Blight). I would guess that the same is true for plots...my biped owns one, but she is just starting out in construction.

*snip*

Ahhhhhhhh that is a *fantastic* point, I hadn't thought about construction of low-tier buildings. That would certainly put my idea about tier-restrictions out to pasture then

I respectively withdraw that suggestion

But I still like the attuned-teched-items concept...