Dragon and human ideas (Dragon riders?)

[LungTien Temeraire]

I think it wouldn't fit with the lore... according to it, the dragons aren't really liking them. Lunus are rather seeing some of them as slaves, some as threats ; Helians are seeing themselves as higher than the bipeds, suspicious at best, and think they should lead them towards improvement ; ...
Global dragon society has too much pride about that, and the rare dragons who would be ready to be ridden by a biped would be like outside of their society. That is just my point of view, though

[Raptress]

May I ask for a dev response as to why Dragon riding hasn't been added/isn't being developed? Is it just beyond the teams skill (currently)? To much work for one project? Has there been a response to this from a member of the most recent dev team?

I'm pretty sure dragon-riding has been firmly on the "pony" list for a long, long time. The "pony" list being a reference to the oft mentioned pony that children always want, I think.

While I can't give you a dev response, if I were to guess, this would be one of those things that, while maybe not exactly beyond the team's abilities, would take too long and pull resources away from too many things for it to get developed any time soon.

[AmonGwareth]

The amount of time required to implement this feature (both in terms of programming and art) and the low return (basically it isn't a feature that everyone would want/use) is why its never really been anything we've put effort into, either from a planning or development perspective.

Because of the size of our team (and not just at present, but going back all the way to late-2004) we've had to be careful with the things we choose to develop. We typically focus on things that have a high return, such as high-level content, low-level content, performance improvements, plot/lair art, and that sort of thing. These things have a high return because they either a) appeal to the long-term folks, b) appeal to new players, or c) are for plots and thus appeal to just about anyone.

[Frith-Rae]

Huh, I thought the stickied FAQ would help with such rezzed discussions...

Dang..

[Dragonboy]

While Dragon riding sounds nice enough you also have to consider the whole lore contradiction this will create.

From what is available Dragons have considered themselves vastly superior to any of the Biped races (and the game would still have been like this had the addition of trophies not been added to the game which have allowed for the easy yet extreme grind of reaching rating 278 and thus the true Uberpeds).

Why would any sentient dragon who considers him/herself superior carry anything on its back. In a few fantasy books I have read:
- Dragons are ordered by a god to allow the “lower” races to ride them for the greater good of that particular god. (Dragonlance)
- Dragons are put under a spell of submission and reduced to unpredictable horses. (The Death Gate Cycle)
- Dragons are linked with a rider due to an age old magic spell and even die when the rider dies, the wild dragons when they still lived were a force to be reckoned with and most definitly no mount material. (Eragon)
- Dragons are an independent race who would rather die then let a lesser on their backs. (Chronicles of the Raven)

Others can probably give examples from “dragon” books in which it was quite normal that a sentient dragon allows itself to be ridden like a common mount.

I however am happy about Amongwareth stating that it will not be developed due to lack of people who are interested. For every player interested there can be found a player who is not. Time is better spend revamping the remaining tiered areas (and perhaps a permanent sleep/laying down command in addition to sit… hint hint… )

Huh, I thought the stickied FAQ would help with such rezzed discussions...

Dang..

Not to sound negative, but I often see people who ask things who simply haven't done any quests or read any of the information given to them while on the Tutorial Island.

[Thenalth]

Others can probably give examples from “dragon” books in which it was quite normal that a sentient dragon allows itself to be ridden like a common mount.

One that immediately came to mind: The Chronicles of Pern by Anne McCathrey, the dragons there are essentially Genetically Enlarged versions of a little miniature Dragon. In adition, said dragons also have a mental link between them and their riders, and also dragons need to consume a special stone for its gases to breathe fire, and need thier riders to supply that stone mid air while combating the mindless antagonists.

Also in Eragon, i recall a part where it was said that the dragons did not actually die with their riders, but more often commited suicide to join them (or something along those lines), as there had been some dragons who had lost their riders but remained (If i recall correctly, need to read the books again).

[Eelime]

As to the comment about the FAQ.... the FAQ's answer to this question (and I suggest it be updated with Amon's new post) is simply "It is not in the game at this time". There is no reason given as to why, just that it isn't. People like long detailed answers before they'll accept something as fact.




Another thing. I'm quite sure that dragon riding would appeal to a large number of players, new (especially) and old.


And to the "why would dragons do this" well, dragons are sentient, meaning they have the ability to make choices. They aren't a hive mind. They have conflicting opinions, just like people (as that's who play them and write them). Dragons should have the choice to let people ride them, if they want. If a dragon thinks he shouldn't do this, that is let people ride him, he can most definitely refuse.

Adding this feature would add to the RP a lot (dragon-riders, anti-rider dragons, give more options for transpiration, etc..), and would add more content for crafters. How about a harness that requires components made from a lot of different crafting classes to be put on a dragon to be ridden, and then a riding suit made of rare materials to keep the rider from falling or getting hurt? Or maybe leave the suit out.





There is a thing such as the vocal majority, and the actual majority. I'm sure if you went to each subscribed player and asked them "Do you think you would enjoy it if dragon riding were put into the game" a lot of them, more than half, maybe more than 90%, would say yes.


As a dragon, a Lunus at that, I would enjoy the option to give rides to bi-peds (not hatchies, as that wouldn't work out well...),either by actually letting me ride them, or allowing me to pick them up in my claws. Even if, from an rp standpoint, I would refuse to speak to any dragon that would degrade themselves by doing it.. either by actually letting me ride them, or allowing me to pick them up in my claws.



To me, it's about allowing the freedom, and giving the option, to allow players who come to this game because of the dragons (bi-peds and dragons alike) to have the option.

Though I now understand that the team does not find it feasible to add the feature, I don't think it should be dismissed because it seems that the players may not find it a top priority.

I think dragon-riding would add to the amount of people that join the game because of dragons, and therefore would add to the game as a whole.

[LungTien Temeraire]

In a lore view, I still think that wouldn't be well seen by the almost entire dragon society. For the most dragons, they wouldn't like this idea more than to wear clothes.

[Dragonboy]

Also in Eragon, i recall a part where it was said that the dragons did not actually die with their riders, but more often commited suicide to join them (or something along those lines), as there had been some dragons who had lost their riders but remained (If i recall correctly, need to read the books again).

In Eragon I recall Brom shouting/complaining against Eragon because he went so recklessly into combat... I believe it was mentioned as well that if the dragon dies the rider lives, but if the rider dies the dragon dies as well..
http://www.funtrivia.com/en/Movies/Eragon-17183.html

What happened to a dragon if their rider died?
It died too. The Ra'zac were creeping up on Brom while Eragon was flying with Saphira. Eragon took Saphira down to help Brom, but she crash-landed and was injured. Brom gave Eragon a lecture about protecting his dragon and both he and Saphira explained to Eragon that if a rider died so would his dragon.

I have seen a question asked on a Yahoo website aswell 1 person said commit suicide, 5 others say die right away. I stand by my thought.
Besides the books of Eragon mention only of the “Tame (by magic changed)” dragons who had riders… How many bipeds do you think would risk approaching a wild dragon… It was mentioned in the books that even the Tame dragons were fearfull of mating with the Wild free Dragons.when they were still around.

As for the The Chronicles of Pern, I never read any of those books, but if cheap enough I might try it soon… However from what I can read on the wikia… The planet of Pern had small flying fire lizards which were genetically altered by bipeds into large dragons… So no creatures that have evolved into the beings they are now… Changed by bipeds to suite their personal needs… To become larger and stronger then nature created them to be.
What makes you say that any aggression towards others was also not genetically removed?

In Istaria dragons have not been changed by Bipeds except for the spell that created the Gifted. In Istaria Dragons have 2 major cities and used to have an Academy, but at least they don’t really have a need for bipeds or any lower life forms except for food and the fight against the Withered Aegis (In case you did not know Draak fell because it was flooded by Satyr undead, which means the Satyr themselves were to weak to defend themselves in the first place).

There is a thing such as the vocal majority, and the actual majority. I'm sure if you went to each subscribed player and asked them "Do you think you would enjoy it if dragon riding were put into the game" a lot of them, more than half, maybe more than 90%, would say yes.

It is true that there is a vocal and actual majority however 90% of players is pretty doubtful considering the lore sees Dragons to think themselves vastly superior to Bipeds and generally having something on your back is turning a dragon into a common pack animal… Be honest now… How would an arrogant creature 50 times the size of a Half-Giant feel when demoted to the mere usefulness of a mule/horse. Anyway you have your answer from a developer. Unless something significant is going to change like someone donating a few million dollars to VI no dragon riding will be developed so it is no use trying to defend a thousand times beaten dead horse.

[Eelime]

It is true that there is a vocal and actual majority however 90% of players is pretty doubtful considering the lore sees Dragons to think themselves vastly superior to Bipeds and generally having something on your back is turning a dragon into a common pack animal… Be honest now… How would an arrogant creature 50 times the size of a Half-Giant feel when demoted to the mere usefulness of a mule/horse. Anyway you have your answer from a developer. Unless something significant is going to change like someone donating a few million dollars to VI no dragon riding will be developed so it is no use trying to defend a thousand times beaten dead horse.

To be honest, I don't see why a proud dragon that is 50 times larger than a half-giant would be demoted to a common pack mule. Unless he was a cowardly dragon and a total push-over, which means he might as well be a pack mule.


The players would be able to choose if they let other player ride them.


Maybe it could be something like a Khuit quest that has to be completed to activate the ability? That way dragons that want to do it can do it, and the others who do not can just not do the quest?


Also, I want it to be clear that I will be a supported of this idea and dream until the day that Istaria ceases to exist, and beyond. So telling me, or others, to stop suggesting it, or trying to figure out ways that it might work, or discussing it, will do no one any good, as it will just be a waste of your typing, as you seem to think it's a waste to discuss the subject.

I, on the other hand, believe that the subject should be discussed a million times over, and so welcome comments from both sides (as long as the comment is "It's a dead horse, don't beat it!" or "Read the FAQ"). This is a discussion forum, for the purpose of discussing (the suggestions forum is located under the category "Discussion" if you think I am wrong) suggestions thought up by and submitted by the players. And it's not like a new thread about this is popping up every day. Heck, there's barely a new thread popping up here every week or month. These forums are very quiet. You would think that a game with only a few hundred subscribers at most (probably less) would have a more active forum.


Again, I understand that the devs, at this time, do not find it possible, reasonable, feasible, or what have you, to implement this feature, but that does not mean that we, the ones interested in having this feature, cannot promote the idea and further discuss it. Maybe if each thread that came up on this topic wasn't bombarded with "nope, not gonna happen. Give up. Devs say no. Can't happen. Read the FAQ! Etc...", a thread on this topic could stay fairly active and so the suggestions forum wouldn't be saddled with the enormous amount of threads on the subject.



I have a new suggestion. Lets have Amon make a new post, giving a lengthy reason as to why dragon riding will not or cannot be implemented at this time, and then say "But that does not mean that the community cannot discuss the idea. So, here is the only place the discussion of this topic will be allowed.

/Discuss"

And then merge the best post from all the OTHER "dragon riding" threads out there into this thread and sticky the thread. Then, delete all the other threads (or the most recent ones). That will keep this dreadful amount of topics on this subject from popping up, and would give people who want the idea to happen to voice their opinions and support.




Also, in closing, I suggested (not sure if it was this thread) that the dev team create a donation button that would give donations to a special fund that would go directly to subcontracting work for the game. There are a bunch of us that can probably spare $5 a week or month if we know it's going directly into the development of new content. Maybe get a quote from a graphics team/artist on how much it would cost to get a lot of the Istaria's models revamped, then set up a donation goal clock/bar to get to the estimate?

I am quite sure I could manage $10 to $20 a month extra, on top of my subscription (or subscriptions, in the future), if I knew it was going directly into the development of something new.


I think I may make a new thread for this suggestion. Well, a couple of threads, one for each suggestion.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Sure, Eelime, the forum is there to discuss about this subject.
I, personally, just think that, in a RP view, if some dragons let bipeds ride them, the rest of the istarian dragons wouldn't really see them better than outcasts.

I'll add that my own dragon has seen, two times, aegrors trying to ride him (screenshots are on the dragon pics' threads), but it didn't worked well...

[Eelime]

Sure, Eelime, the forum is there to discuss about this subject.
I, personally, just think that, in a RP view, if some dragons let bipeds ride them, the rest of the istarian dragons wouldn't really see them better than outcasts.

And, to me, that could create some interesting RP. There are already people (on order, even) who RP being dragon and companion/rider, but just don't have the mechanics to support it, so they rely on the resources most RPers use when they want to do something that the game doesn't support, *'s and /emote.


Besides the RP aspect of the idea, I think that the biggest, or most important reason it should be added is that it will attract a LOT of people. If the devs added this and then got an interview on MMORPG.com to announce it, the game would be flooded with new faces, all wanting to ride a dragon, ro become a dragon to be ridding. And if they want to be ridden, they'll need to become an adult. And, unless they can level very, very fast, they'll need to subscribe.... do you see where I'm going?


Istaria is as popular as it is right now because of dragons, no one can deny that. The only reason Istaria hasn't died is because of the dragons. New people keep coming to the game because of the dragons, but they stay for more than that. We are currently the only game that offers the ability to play as a dragon, which means all the Eragon, Temeraire, Pern, etc... fans, or anyone thats ever fallen in love with dragons, will want to try this game if they could just find out about it. And if the game offered not only the ability to be a dragon, but the ability to ride one?! imagine the flood that could be caused. It could revive the game, or at least increase the population a bit.

Sure, hundreds may come, maybe thousands, and then hundreds may leave. But I'm sure a decent number of people will stay, if only for 3 or so months.

Right now, Istaria is in a dilemma, from what I can tell. The dev team is to small to do much, due to having to concentrate on one thing at a time to get things done, the community is small and getting smaller slowly (tho I think I may have noticed a bit of an increase in population in the game over the past few weeks... maybe due to the MMORPG.com interview?). Something big and eye-catching needs to be added, so the dev team can justify a lot of advertising. It'll be like a second grand opening for Istaria.






Now, that is not to say that Dragon riding is the only feature the dev team can add to attract new players, but unless they have something huge under their sleeve, I think it would be their best bet.

[LungTien Temeraire]

If that can attract a lot more players, I'm not sure.
Though they aren't really playable, dragons can be ridden on World of Warcraft.

[Dragonboy]

Nobody is stating that it should not be discussed, but you have to understand from the point of view of the elder players that this topic has indeed been discussed multiple times, about every time a larger influx of new players come into the game... Please don’t get me wrong the topic in itself is not bad, but firstly lore wise it doesn’t fit (maybe if it was extended towards air combat as well it might, but that is even more development work) and secondly after seeing it asked so many times and while most if not all of us know that it will probably never happen it does seem to resemble a dead horse… I am sure that it would make an interesting addition to the game (If it does the only biped to be on my back will be my alt anyway), but Amon clearly stated that they wish to spend their time and money on more important things. So actually if it is a waste of energy for the No-sayers to say no, it is also a waste of energy of the Yes-Sayers to keep asking about it considering this is a 7 year old game and it has probably been asked before… Therefore you should understand the Dead Horse statement.

As for the statement you make to let amon make a new post…

The amount of time required to implement this feature (both in terms of programming and art) and the low return (basically it isn't a feature that everyone would want/use) is why its never really been anything we've put effort into, either from a planning or development perspective.

Because of the size of our team (and not just at present, but going back all the way to late-2004) we've had to be careful with the things we choose to develop. We typically focus on things that have a high return, such as high-level content, low-level content, performance improvements, plot/lair art, and that sort of thing. These things have a high return because they either a) appeal to the long-term folks, b) appeal to new players, or c) are for plots and thus appeal to just about anyone.

Amon has already used some of his valuable time to make a statement about the subject so why ask for another one?

As a last note… I am aware that this is the Suggestion forum and this is part of the Discussion forum and also I am happy you chose to rezz an old thread instead of starting a new one like most people do. You must however be aware that when you post in the Suggestion forum that some people will agree with you, some will not agree with you and others wouldn’t care if it gets ingame or not. All sides will enter the discussion. Personally I am quite neutral on this particular subject… The only reason I respond is to let you know that I don’t mind the idea, but you should never get your hopes up to see it ingame unless a miracle happens.

Now, that is not to say that Dragon riding is the only feature the dev team can add to attract new players, but unless they have something huge under their sleeve, I think it would be their best bet.

That my good Eelime is your opinion. Personally I think that a lot can be gained by revamping the world of Istaria. I have seen Lesser Aradoth been revamped when I was a hatchling many many years ago, I have seen Spirits Isle and Skalkaar Isle come ingame as a replacement tutorial area for the new players, I have seen the Dalimond peninsula been revamped not to long ago and all these changes have been loads of work, but have also been a huge improvement. Not only are there new mobs, different landscapes, but also a large amount of quests to keep players occupied. I hear that a new lower level dungeon is still in the making like the end-game players have Dralnok’s Doom. Sure your suggestion would improve the game for some people, but the kind of game improvements I mentioned would improve the game for ALL people. And I agree with Amon that it is better to do improvements like this and put other things on the “To-Do” list.

Trust me when I say that many vocal or none vocal players have things they would love to see ingame, but it will probably take years if it will ever make it ingame.

[Eelime]

Nobody is stating that it should not be discussed, but you have to understand from the point of view of the elder players that this topic has indeed been discussed multiple times, about every time a larger influx of new players come into the game... Please don’t get me wrong the topic in itself is not bad, but firstly lore wise it doesn’t fit (maybe if it was extended towards air combat as well it might, but that is even more development work) and secondly after seeing it asked so many times and while most if not all of us know that it will probably never happen it does seem to resemble a dead horse… I am sure that it would make an interesting addition to the game (If it does the only biped to be on my back will be my alt anyway), but Amon clearly stated that they wish to spend their time and money on more important things. So actually if it is a waste of energy for the No-sayers to say no, it is also a waste of energy of the Yes-Sayers to keep asking about it considering this is a 7 year old game and it has probably been asked before… Therefore you should understand the Dead Horse statement.

As for the statement you make to let amon make a new post…

Amon has already used some of his valuable time to make a statement about the subject so why ask for another one?

As a last note… I am aware that this is the Suggestion forum and this is part of the Discussion forum and also I am happy you chose to rezz an old thread instead of starting a new one like most people do. You must however be aware that when you post in the Suggestion forum that some people will agree with you, some will not agree with you and others wouldn’t care if it gets ingame or not. All sides will enter the discussion. Personally I am quite neutral on this particular subject… The only reason I respond is to let you know that I don’t mind the idea, but you should never get your hopes up to see it ingame unless a miracle happens.


That my good Eelime is your opinion. Personally I think that a lot can be gained by revamping the world of Istaria. I have seen Lesser Aradoth been revamped when I was a hatchling many many years ago, I have seen Spirits Isle and Skalkaar Isle come ingame as a replacement tutorial area for the new players, I have seen the Dalimond peninsula been revamped not to long ago and all these changes have been loads of work, but have also been a huge improvement. Not only are there new mobs, different landscapes, but also a large amount of quests to keep players occupied. I hear that a new lower level dungeon is still in the making like the end-game players have Dralnok’s Doom. Sure your suggestion would improve the game for some people, but the kind of game improvements I mentioned would improve the game for ALL people. And I agree with Amon that it is better to do improvements like this and put other things on the “To-Do” list.

Trust me when I say that many vocal or none vocal players have things they would love to see ingame, but it will probably take years if it will ever make it ingame.

I am sorry. I went a bit overboard with some of my comments, but please know that they weren't aimed at only what you said. I have used the search function and looked at many threads on the subject of dragon riding, and I see a lot of answers along the lines of, if not exactly, "It's not gonna happen so don't even suggest or discuss it".




Also, If you'll look at my new thread, about the post, in my suggestion I suggest the possibility of just having V or some other mod copy/paste what Amon already said in this thread, and just add a sentence, and then sticky it.



As well, my point is, dragon riding would be the biggest attention grabber the devs could come up with right now. Something like "Oh, games that's existed for 7 years just added new content? I might check it out" new content is more appealing to current players, rather than the potential players. "New graphics on a game that's 7 years old and is still active? Hell ya I'll check that out!" would be better than dragon riding, but I have a feeling that revamping the graphics would be more work and more expensive than implementing dragon riding. If not, go for it.

If there was an announcement on MMORPG.com, Massively.com, IGN.com or some other .com, along the lines of "Istaria Finally Did It...DRAGON RIDING!" and then in the post it goes into detail about how the dragons that can be ridden area actually player characters. Imagine how many people will thing "I loved Eragon." or "I loved Temeraire!" or "I love <insert dragon book".


Right now, just having playable dragons are nice, being able to fly while playing one is awesome. But once players find out that it takes a lot of work to be able to fly, a lot of them give up, since they only came here because they wanted to be a dragon and fly. But if they had teh chance to fly, without being a dragon, they would probably stay. And the bi-ped races would get a lot more love.

And, on the Order shard, which is the only place that lore actually matters to the game play (that is, not that people on Chaos do not follow lore or RP, but they don't put to much emphasis on it) it would create some interesting RP. Maybe a backstory could be created, to expand the lore, to explain why dragon riding is now spreading across Istaria? Maybe a new type of dungeon could be added that requires dragons to get to, but bi-peds to complete? Or maybe aerial combat can be added, with a new form of W.A., that flies on a giant crow or something? The idea doesn't have to stop with just dragon riding. It could be a precursor to a whole slew of new content.

[Dragonboy]

Right now, just having playable dragons are nice, being able to fly while playing one is awesome. But once players find out that it takes a lot of work to be able to fly, a lot of them give up, since they only came here because they wanted to be a dragon and fly. But if they had teh chance to fly, without being a dragon, they would probably stay. And the bi-ped races would get a lot more love.

I have to agree that being a dragon from Hatchling to Adult to Ancient takes time, just like it takes time to reach your full potential (get specialized scales, crystals and such), but to be honest… I wouldn’t want it any other way, reaching your full potential too soon leads to early boredom. It is the same for the biped players. It takes time to get them multi-classed to a point were they are truly strong.
At least for the new hatchlings the devs have created the ability for hatchlings to Glide from high surfaces, only many new players don't hear about it untill they just happen to ask/get told by an elder, enter a guild and get told or finally reach any of the chatrooms and ask.
By default this is turned off, which I think is a shame and should be turned on by default. If it hasn't been done already. (Amon?!? hint hint... )

[LungTien Temeraire]

At least for the new hatchlings the devs have created the ability for hatchlings to Glide from high surfaces, only many new players don't hear about it untill they just happen to ask/get told by an elder, enter a guild and get told or finally reach any of the chatrooms and ask.
By default this is turned off, which I think is a shame and should be turned on by default. If it hasn't been done already. (Amon?!? hint hint... )

I, personally, had never heard anything about the glide, nor seen any hatchling using it, until I got an adult. : /

[awdz]

When I do play Awdzy instead of Awdz, gliding is *always* involved. I'm just not terribly good at it - Awdzy keeps skinning her shins on hillsides when she tries to glide somewhere too shallow.

[Dragonboy]

I, personally, had never heard anything about the glide, nor seen any hatchling using it, until I got an adult. : /

That is the problem if people don't know that it is possible and because it is turned of by default.

[LOVWYRM]

I agree with Rv here-

Dragonriding will not attract more people than being able to play a dragon.

I can live without that- it does not fit into Istaria in my eyes.