Gauging Interest

[Dracaena]

I would like to ask how many remember a dragon channel that didn't have the bot in it? Would there be interest in recreating that channel?

Let me try to explain my thinking and see if anyone else has similar thoughts.

I can only speak from Spirit Shard perspective as that was where I started. Regrettably I have forgotten the dragon's name who started the channel. I remember the mass invites getting sent across the shard to all dragons. Many were puzzled like I was, why was I invited and what was the channel for? What I remember being told that it was a place for dragons to gather to ask questions and find answers. It was a place to find groupmates and just hang out and have fun. Spirit shard had many channels in use back then, alot were heavy rp so dragon channel didn't need to be. Besides, you couldn't pop in with "where do I find xyz?" in the middle of a convoluted rp story and expect to keep your head on your shoulders. The game mechanics were a large reason for the need for a dragon channel. Something as simple as "how do I mine?", has two completely different set of directions depending on if you are dragon or biped. So the dragon channel of Spirit was mostly light rp with some story times. We did have some elder dragons who wrote wonderful lore stories and shared them with us.

Fast foward to the destruction of the old shards and the formation of Order. Those first days were very chaotic on the shard. We had dragons from all over trying to get aquainted and do things as they had always done. There was a fair bit of hashing things out. But surprisingly enough, the stories of the different versions of dragon channel were fairly similar. Though there were those who wanted to make it a heavy rp channel. There was turmoil along the lines of this current summer. This was when Zideon put the rp rule sticky in our forums. Still we argued, eventually the dust settled and dragon channel was close to what I knew on Spirit. The history of dragon channel on Order has been a recycling of this same scenario continued. When I woke up this summer from another long sleep I thought it was still the dragon channel that had been home for all these years. After a few weeks I realized it wasn't home anymore and left. It seemed to me there were too few left who remembered the old ways, and the dragon glade sit on my rock isn't something my character would do.

I missed having a channel to hang out in and be silly if I felt like it so I logged in my hatchling on Chaos shard to see how dragon channel fared there. It was about what I remembered, though I was surprised on two accounts. The order refugees I found who had been driven off by order's dragon channel, and being told that I was more in depth and helpful then normal for the channel (chaos) for answers to the questions posted. To me those two things were telling and saddening.

What I would like to suggest is original dragon channel (player made) to be the help/group/light rp/optional channel it always was. Let dragon channel with the bot be the heavy rp rule set that Zideon posted for us so many years ago. I think this might be a workable solution to the cyclic turmoil that dragon channel with the bot goes through. For the exact name of the player channel I favor Orginal Dragon Channel, though I am not sure what would be best that wouldn't confuse new players. I have been pondering this idea for many weeks. It will not work without community support so I am asking you, the players of Order.


Dracaena Starfyre

[Raptress]

As far as I'm aware, that's still what the current Dragon channel is. There isn't a lot of heavy RP in it, especially nowadays, and OOC has always been allowed, it's just that in a mixed OOC/IC environment, the people in the channel prefer OOC be annotated.

Making an "Original Dragon Channel" seems largely redundant, a second channel serving more or less the same purpose as the first. Besides which, the current channel is known and has a population, meaning it's more likely to get used unless you can get nearly everyone from DC to go to the new one.

Heavy RP for the most part does not occur in DC much. I know I and many others only use DC as a meeting point to take our heavy RP elsewhere. There's just too many different styles of RPer there for heavy RP to work very well. There was even a movement a while back to move all the serious roleplayers out of DC because there's so much light and/or nonsensical/illogical RP that goes on in there.

People still talk in OOC frequently. Oftentimes, that's all that's happening in the channel. I see many ask questions, look for groups, and just talk there in OOC and it's perfectly allowable. The only thing is the courtesy of annotating your OOC, and I've never understood why anyone would have a problem with providing that courtesy to others in a mixed RP/OOC channel, which is what DC is.

If people are getting driven out of DC, it's generally by a vocal and somewhat aggressive minority. That's not the majority as far as I've seen in the ~year I've been back in HZ. The majority is the fairly polite and fun community.

[awdz]

I'd suggest that if a second channel were made, it be DragonRP for the heavy rp's to go to. My reasoning is that I think new players with questions about dragon quests/game mechanics would go to Dragon chat as the first stop after New Player chat for info to help their characters. It's the most intuitive chat name for me to look for dragon help, anyway.

[Raptress]

That would be what the Union Vale channel was set up to accomplish. So that second channel's already been made. And like I said before, heavy RP very rarely happens in DC anyway.

[Dracaena]

The "problem" of ooc brackets. By expecting the use of brackets you are indicating that the channel is primarily roleplay with ooc tolerated. Dragon channel in the beginning was not role play. Historically the drama in the channel starts when there becomes insistence in using brackets. We have a fundamental difference of opinion of the primary use of the channel being ooc or role play.

With the addition of the bot to dragon channel it has become an offical channel subject to the shard rule set of roleplay. This was always the old argument against the bot being there. Frankly, if push came to shove and the gods had to step in, I believe it would fall on the side of the roleplayers. This was the subtle hint Zideon gave us when this arguement went on at Order shard formation. The Union Vale channel is invitation only from what little information I have found about it. That does not qualify it as a rp substitute for the offical dragon channel.

As far as your "vocal minority". The squeaky wheel gets the grease. I have seen dragons get reamed for asking for a translation of the dragon speech. Years ago I considered applying to Keir Chet k'Eilerten guild. Until I realized that my ineptness with languages would mean I would always be typing with a dictionary in hand and be 5 paragraphs behind the chat trying to translate what was said. I quickly gave up on that idea. I really doubt I was the only one who ever had those thoughts. And no, it wasn't me on the receiving end that day in dragon chat, I know better then to even try to ask.

Dracaena

[Kodey]

I remember how it was on Spirit, I also started on that shard. I was often in the Keir Chet k'Eilerten guild channels myself to hang out. As far as Dragon channel goes, I've always been good with whatever people are doing. My characters usually ignore the OOC, because it's OOC stuff. I wouldn't mind having tons of OOC around me without brackets, if nobody minds my text-walls with numerous amounts of typos. <3

I'd never drive anybody away since all I remember Dragon channel being was OOC. I just use it to RP because of a few of the people there are actually good at it and I like to interact with them. Plus it allows others to jump in on it if they wish or stay OOC.

I can usually tell when things are OOC that do not have brackets. I always use brackets myself now even though dragon channel was always OOC. Kinda weird but I got used to it. D:

[Raptress]

The "problem" of ooc brackets. By expecting the use of brackets you are indicating that the channel is primarily roleplay with ooc tolerated. Dragon channel in the beginning was not role play. Historically the drama in the channel starts when there becomes insistence in using brackets. We have a fundamental difference of opinion of the primary use of the channel being ooc or role play.

The primary use of the channel is not dictated by my nor your opinion. The channel is what it is, and what it is is a place where both RP and OOC occur. If both are happening at once then it's common courtesy, I think, to use brackets for OOC. Unless a channel is strictly OOC and absolutely no RP occurs there, I use brackets for OOC everywhere I go.

I've heard many times that the Dragon channel was not RP-based in the beginning, but as far as I can see, it was inevitable that it started getting used as such. Istaria's not a huge game. There are not a lot of places where you can go that has 20 or 30 players in it to RP with. DC and Marketplace are the two biggest channels. I haven't been in Marketplace, so it might be different there, but I expect RP happens in there as well. If I ever go OOC into Marketplace, I'll be using brackets. To me, it doesn't matter what the ratio of OOC:IC is. If RP happens there, my OOC goes in brackets.

I have seen dragons get reamed for asking for a translation of the dragon speech.

I haven't ever seen that occur. What I have seen is people get reamed for not using brackets. When it happens, it's usually the same person every time. That's not the whole channel. It's one person you can /ignore. I personally try to be helpful to anyone who asks a question in OOC, and I've seen far more help than harm in that area.

But that's all beside the point. You were asking if a totally OOC Dragon Chat would work. And I don't think it would because a lot of OOC already happens in DC and DC has the numbers already. I'm not saying you shouldn't try or anything, that's just how I see it.

[Tcei]

I've never seen anyone get reamed for using/not-using/not knowing the dragon language. I frequently see folks ask others to use brackets for ooc, but havent (in recent memory) seen anyone get yelled at for not using them. In all honesty drama's bound to happen where you have large gatherings of folks. Simply a clash of ideas and personalities. Creating a seperate channel isnt going to prevent any of that.

[Hraefn]

The Union Vale channel is invitation only from what little information I have found about it. That does not qualify it as a rp substitute for the offical dragon channel.
Dracaena

That's not true at all. The Vale channel is open to all who understand the basic guidelines of roleplay.

[Nambroth]

Dracaena,

I have been playing on Order actively for a little over 2 years now, and am always in the Dragon chat channel when logged in.

I have never seen anyone get reamed for not understanding or asking for a translation of the dragon language.

I have sometimes seen one or two individuals have quibbles about 'too much' OOC chat in the dragon chat channel. I rather liken this to a large party of people having a good time, when someone tosses their cup down, declares that the party is terrible, and storms out. It's one thing if I saw folks upset about it often, but... rarely does it happen, and it's usually the same few people, and I fire that they are entitled to their opinion as I am to mine. I may not agree, but I have never seen reaming or other nastiness, and if I did, the /ignore is easy to use.

When players, new ones too that do not use brackets for OOC ask questions or need aid in the Dragon chat channel, I always respond if I am able to help or answer questions. I regularly see others do so as well.

I am very sorry if you've had bad experiences. I'm sorry that the channel has evolved over time into something other than what you expected. I understand that the Dragon chat channel was not RolePlay enforced at it's creation... but, it is now. I am not sure what you are suggesting we do?
If you are simply seeking to create a new OOC-dragon chat channel, please feel free to do so! One never knows how things will be unless one tries, right?

[Frith-Rae]

Yes the Union Vale is not invite only - I was able to just join as soon as I logged in after reading about the channel.

I talk OOC in dragon chat all the time - sometimes I remember to use brackets, sometimes I don't - and sometimes I don't use brackets because I don't feel I should have to. The Dragon Chat is OOC friendly and if heavy RPers dont like it, they can join the myriad of RP only channels we have (there are many, yet rarely is anyone in them - they are populated by 1-2 people and thus people looking for RP perhaps don't giev them a try...and then they return to the populated channels..and wonder why their is OOC..)

If you look at the bot created channels - go count how many are definitely OOC, and go count how many are "Rp centric". Bot created channels are clearly NOT by default meant to be RP only - and only one the "roleplay" channel is actually for RP. (clearly Marketplace, New Player Chat, etc. are ooc by default - so why is this so hard to understand with Dragon Chat)

The bot created channel clearly meant for ROleplay - entitled Roleplay - is..never used :/. I've never seen anything outside the bot there in years.

Why is it heavy RPers of Order want to try and take over a channel that was established for OOC assistance/chat/help/light RP/fun silliness - when there are NUMEROUS other options for them to use?

I just don't get it.

meanwhile - I'll be in dragon chat - talking OOC - offering help where I can - and talking IC when it suits me. Brackets not included.

(p.s KCE always welcomed and still does non-dragon language chatters (heck few of us remember most of the language ourselves for it being not as heavily used so no biggy - the guild is all but dead anyway). If someone gripes you out for asking for a translation, put them on ignore. They clearly do not abide by the KCE philosophy (and sound like meanies anyway). Now if you're a biped asking for a translaction in IC/RP - well the dragon may gripe you out IC because naka-duskeal are not to understand our language (if you're a strict follower of that ideal). But if you're askign OOC wise no matter what your race, then it shouldn't be an issue. And I"m sorry to hear you had a bad experience with anyone using the language).

[Dracaena]

Well, it may go against the flow but I am going to go ahead and make a channel Dragon-OOC.

Even when I was in heavy role play guilds we kept two channels, one completely in character and one for ooc chatter. What I saw in dragon with the bot this summer puts it in the full role play catagory with ooc in brackets and nobody is really happy. I realize this fluctuates with time of day and who is awake but only considering dragon channel safe (for ooc chatter) after midnight is just getting too complex. I think if this new channel catches on, it will be a benefit for both sides of the equation.

But I have been staring down the barrel of T3 maelstones for the hall all summer and still little progress on them..........I needs my lair zombies! Any and all crafting haze hallucinations are welcome dragon or biped. There has been no sillliinesssessss and we needsss them.

On a serious note, I would like to say that all (dragon and biped) are welcome to the channel. Think of it as your place to come for directions, quest questions, looking for group, just hang out, or even *gasp* computor stuff questions provided you find another who speaks the language in channel. I will be doing my best deer in headlights impression as only the computor illiterate can do.


Regards,

Dracaena

[Frith-Rae]

What I saw in dragon with the bot this summer puts it in the full role play catagory with ooc in brackets and nobody is really happy.

Yea, then I use the inarguable logic of the other bot created channels that are clearly NOT IC/RP and try to get people to at least compromise on the idea that "Bot=RP" Cuz it just simply doesn't.

Heck if anything Bot=OOC when you take the numbers across the bot channels. Regardless that you're thinking "Order default RP". The theory just doesn't hold true.

The facts don't fit the theory, the theory must be reconsidered.

I don't direct that at YOU, I'm saying when people attempt that faulty theory with me that's what I return with. And then I keep talking without brakets if I feel like it (esp. if there isn't any RP to compete with...)

[Fyrethorne]

I agree with Dracaena and Frith Rae. If you use brackets in DC, then it implies that it is a RP only channel. If new/ returning players are constantly told how they have to act/ type in that channel, then no one will go there, and those that are there are often silent. There is little spontineity, and it is not an enjoyable channel to be in. Of course, I can only speak for when I am online.

More disturbing yet, is the number of players on Chaos that have left Order due to the roleplay drama in DC. You can deny that it doesn't happen, but then ask yourself- why did these players then feel the need to leave?

There is a DEDICATED RP channel, go there if you want to follow strict rules, or make your own channel. (strange that the rp channel is always empty).

DC should be for ALL dragons, IC or OOC. Please everyone refrain from telling others how to type/ talk, so it can become the welcoming channel for ALL dragons, new or old, IC or OCC. That's what it should be.

I myself will be there to help new players, and I won't be using brackets either.

Dracaena- you already know what I think of your channel. I think it is becoming a permanent resisdence for me. Thankyou for creating it!

[LOVWYRM]

well spoken, Fyre
I agree.
I missed something it seems, would like to join the channel you are talking about.
If you want to have me in- pls invite me

[LungTien Temeraire]

Hello. Personally, I think that o use brackets when some are RPing in the DC is courtesy, too. But when nobody is RPing, it shouldn't be confused, and I think that OoC talk can be used without brackets.

[Raeshlavik]

I agree with Dracaena and Frith Rae. If you use brackets in DC, then it implies that it is a RP only channel. If new/ returning players are constantly told how they have to act/ type in that channel, then no one will go there, and those that are there are often silent. There is little spontineity, and it is not an enjoyable channel to be in. Of course, I can only speak for when I am online.

More disturbing yet, is the number of players on Chaos that have left Order due to the roleplay drama in DC. You can deny that it doesn't happen, but then ask yourself- why did these players then feel the need to leave?

There is a DEDICATED RP channel, go there if you want to follow strict rules, or make your own channel. (strange that the rp channel is always empty).

DC should be for ALL dragons, IC or OOC. Please everyone refrain from telling others how to type/ talk, so it can become the welcoming channel for ALL dragons, new or old, IC or OCC. That's what it should be.

I myself will be there to help new players, and I won't be using brackets either.

Dracaena- you already know what I think of your channel. I think it is becoming a permanent resisdence for me. Thankyou for creating it!

I'm one of those aforementioned players... Chaos might get the occasional new player named 'XxdeathxX', but they don't tend to get off New Trismus with the many older players who sort of shepherd the island.

Overall, I've had more role-based interaction on Chaos than I ever did on Order - Chaos isn't as 'clique-y' and has about ten times the population, therefore more people will actually talk to you face-to-face and new players are actually new, not the carefully created story-alt of someone you probably already know, but the game is to see how long they can keep you guessing...

Just last night, in the middle of Bristugo, there was a bit of an impromptu RP session between myself, another random adult Dragon who was just passing through, and a random hatchling regarding RoP requirements, the hatchie's desire to -flyrightnow!-, and the level 50 hatchling scales... What made it so cool was that the other adult and the hatchy got into character simply because I was - these aren't career roleplayers working on book four of their character's trials and tribulations, but just random joes on the server that when given even a little opportunity fell right into character and were a real joy to talk with...

I contrast this with the other night when I logged on to Order briefly to check the inventory of the hatchling I still had there, and got to witness the middle of a fracas in DC because someone was incensed over someone else not knowing the first person's back story or something - which led to a lot of double-parentheses barking and the 'name' player eventually leaving in a huff while their entourage berated the offender.

I logged off and deleted the two remaining characters I had on Order... I'm done.

Now that I'm not invested in any way on the server, I'll state for the record that it is my opinion, based purely on the four or so months I spent there without a guild so DC was my only real communications with anyone, that DC's problem is that it is essentially a private little kingdom... A few players have risen through the ranks and now rule over kingdom of DC and woe be unto them who don't play by the monarch's rules...

The rest of Order's population isn't going to unseat these folks with simple "it's a public channel" logic for one big reason: It's a public channel and is also the first place new people go - so it has a large built-in audience that satisfies the 'look at me!' need. It is for this reason that the suggestion of moving to another channel will be fought with every fiber of their beings...

But, these things are cyclic. Hopefully DC will go back to being the 'New Dragon Assistance' channel some day and you all will actually get some fresh blood in there.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I contrast this with the other night when I logged on to Order briefly to check the inventory of the hatchling I still had there, and got to witness the middle of a fracas in DC because someone was incensed over someone else not knowing the first person's back story or something - which led to a lot of double-parentheses barking and the 'name' player eventually leaving in a huff while their entourage berated the offender.

I logged off and deleted the two remaining characters I had on Order... I'm done.

I think, Raeshlavik, that you shouldn't consider 3 or 4 difficult players as an entire shard players...

[Raeshlavik]

I think, Raeshlavik, that you shouldn't consider 3 or 4 difficult players as an entire shard players...

You are very correct in that 3-4 players are not the entire shard's population... But when those few have the bullhorn, it's what people notice...

It's an image problem. For example, here in the US one guy gets to set precedent for the rest of us by way of international policy and global media - he screws up, and we all get a bad rap for it, so we try and make sure that one guy doesn't completely suck...

I, and from the sounds of it, others, view Order in a bad light because 3-4 of the people there are speaking for the rest in a public channel and setting precedent for the entire server in the eyes of potential new players. They have the bullhorn as it were and everyone coming onto the server gets their version of how things are.

A new player has no way of knowing how the rest of Order feels about someone being grumped at in DC because they didn't prefix their text string in accordance with the proper syntax established by the current oligarchy. They have no way of knowing that because someone broke someone else's immersion in a public channel by not knowing their back story, and thus have committed a crime akin to manslaughter, that the rest of the server aren't the same sort of people.

A new player can only assume that, due to this sort of activity *not* being countermanded by the majority, and that this is on the most populated chat channel in the game, that this is the established way things work here. Hence the rest of the server are probably the same sort of people and if they're not careful, and monitor *everything* they say, they're liable to end up on the wrong side of someone's tongue lashing.

For those confused - this is not "fun" as it is imagined by normal people. I can see it being very easy to give a new player who is only *watching* DC out of something like shyness, the completely wrong impression with the way things are right now.

IC activity, and all of the drama, hurt feelings, confusion, and other stuff that can be present with it (you know it's true) should not be happening in the default new user channels, simply to avoid giving the wrong impression when someone is having a bad day or some other thing has players up in arms.

This isn't going to happen due to reason I outlined in the earlier post, but the reasons and logic are still sound.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I don't think the entire shard will roar at someone if this one don't use brackets when some are RPing. This could make the new players confused.
I think there is a lot of nice players in the order shard, and maybe a few aggressive. Why all this fuss just about 2 buttons, '(' and ')' ?
Should we forbid the RP on the DC? Lastly, if you dislike the DC, so much, you could still join other channels, like 'happy hunting', 'market', 'Roleplay'...