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Thread: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

  1. #21

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    These issues have been debated for years and likely were debated even before my time on the staff (pre-launch). Everyone has an opinion and unfortunately due to the scale of the project its not something that can easily be tested.

    But it is something we've considered. And are still considering. How to spur the economy, how to create demands for coin and for crafted products on a recurring basis.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    If anyone wants to read a good background on MMORPG economies and typical problems in most MMORPGs, I'd highly recommend this article MMORPG economics

    The author's suggestion to fix the problem is a different style of economics, which I don't think applies to Istaria (and in the article the author highlights Eve Online as it is also player-centric crafting). However it is a good backgrounder for those that are interested in understanding what the problem is and some methods other games have used to fix it.

    How does this apply to Istaria? IMHO tax every service provided by the game. Put items in your vault? Pay a fee. Use *any* portal? Pay a fee. Want to place buildings/remove buildings on a plot? Pay a fee. Want to trade items between players? Pay a transaction fee based on the tier of the goods exchanged. (let's call it a VAT/GST - you are registered as an Official Trader with the Empire of Istaria aren't you?!?)

    Just my two cents worth
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Except then there's another problem - many of us don't have a source of income needed to pay fees on everything. Coin is hard to come by as a new player from my experience. That, or it's not obvious enough how to make enough coin.

    I have nothing I can sell other than lairshaping services right now, and I'd go broke quickly if I had to pay for the vault or every portal. Not to mention if I had to pay to build my own lair. I think that'd cause more people to quit. The portals themselves are a good enough money sink, and we really don't need another money sink right now, we need a way for money to exchange hands between players.

    tl;dr: we don't need to sink more money into npcs/the empire, we need an economy (players exchanging money).

  4. #24

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    I think that's the point the author is making with the linked article I posted - trading between players doesn't actually remove money from the economy, it just changes hands. When you trade for goods, you are buying items from another player who has acquired or made the goods. If they are crafters, they spent time making the goods. If they are adventurers, they spent time hunting mobs for the goods.

    Money sinks are one way to remove money from the economy - not the only way, perhaps not the best way, but one way to do it. At the moment money sinks in-game are:

    - consigners (10% fee? from memory)
    - portal fees (not to all destinations, and based on your rating and haulage for disks)
    - bank vault upgrades

    There is no source of income because money is only really required for the previous reasons. It is possible for a player to be completely self-sufficient, by hunting/crafting themselves and trading goods they make for items they need. Money is essentially worthless after a certain point. Istaria is suffering from serious inflation because there is money coming into the game via pawnbrokers, trophy hunters, etc and very little leaving the game via consigners, portal fees, etc. More money in than going out = inflation, and money is not worth as much. That's why governments in RL increase interest rates, so that they can control the value of money and curb inflation.

    A source of income is generated when there is a need in the market for goods and/or services. Hence the ideas in this post (both mine and the OP) is a way to stimulate a need in the market. There are undoubtedly other ways to do so, but I can't think of any that wouldn't require a ridiculous amount of work to change. So it comes down to whether we are willing to feel some pain in the Istarian recession, and make changes to the economy in order to stimulate the market.

    And no, we won't be bailing out the Bank of Istaria, now will we be allowing Directors to have large executive bonuses

    P.S. I am not an economist - all this has come from a couple of weeks research on the 'net, and comments in various forum postings. But if we can create an economy in-game, I think it would give people something else to focus on and get more people playing longer.
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  5. #25

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    I'm against crystal decay completely. I bought some 100 cogs so that I could have one for whatever level I needed. If they decayed, I'd have spent all that money on nothing.
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  6. #26

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Ok so lets take a step back. I agree with stale popcorn that there is to much static (non forward moving) in the game and that people become UBER UBER and there for why ask anyone to make it i can make it or perfectly made sets wait gleeaming until there is a need for it and as he stated money, who needs money, I can make or build anything, harvest farm anything.
    So to redifine the problems:

    Players are TO UBER
    Crafters able to make anything
    no money sinks to get the economey moving again
    gear dosen't break age or ever get lost.

    So my fine fellow istarians We have to make a choice and a terrible one!
    Do we wished to be gimped! I vote HELL YES! (waits for the snowballs)
    with that said this becomes a HUGE problem and proble needs several diffrent lines of thoughts

    Gear decay/break/recharge adv gimped.

    new t6 schools/crafting skills that need you to forget something else to gain something. Crafters gimped.

    and money sinks. New plots( sorry ya'll) bigger badder and more wonderful then ever and a charge per mounth to live there oh did i cay you could buy it? nonoono you rent plots. Take the ilse of new trismas use the town center and have EVERY trainer right there only people whom live there can get to the new island. Locked gates don't ya know. portals to ANY and every gate spot on the map at your finger tips. Make it so "them that HAS" want to go there and "them that do not" ENVY them. buildings that ONLY can be built there.

    Sorry ya'll but unless you covent your neighbor you will never want to move forward we as istarians are to fat smart and powerful for our own good!


    sits down and cries cause he is ganna be the most hated man on the list.

  7. #27

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Something we could consider --

    We already have a "Attuned Once Equipped" (Bind on Equip in WoW-Terms) function already in the game. Primal Vengeance Scales already do this.

    We should spread this for other tech'd equipment as well. That way the same triple T-V tech'd item doesn't get passed down through 5+ different characters. As you get up into T4 and beyond, fewer people use un-tech'd gear, and as new characters are created who get into T4, the demand for tech'd gear would increase I'd think.

  8. #28

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    I do not hate you pyle,
    I hate your ideas, which make a lot of sense.
    And I agree, that this time- without pain we shall have no gain.

    Maybe- when the time for decisions has come- we should have a poll
    about what we (the veterans and ubers) are willig to bear for the improvement of the game.
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  9. #29

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    lol LOVWYRM yes Pyle's idea is harsh but has merit

    To be honest - I would happily give all my money (albeit small - 1g) if it would somehow help. I'm a "fat Istarian" I have already bought my plot in Harro, bot my vault upgrades, and have lots of gear/the ability to make more. The only way I lose money if via portal fees at present.

    Bring on the Istarian recession!
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  10. #30

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Lovwyrm as to the vote thing nope That idea would be bad. I can hear the players already waa waa i dont wanna give up my xx/yy I don't wanna do this. I don't wanna do that. hence the interduction of t6/t7 schools/techs/gear(bindable on equip). force the players to MAKE choices. Wanna do the make the next t6(t7??) gear. Metal/wood Wood/fabric fabric/stone spellcrafting/ess join their(new school guild) BUT you cannot learn the others. unless you unlearn or leave the other guild and unlearn their guild skills (with a HEAVY penalty s - 5 g and 1 week to unlearn then your on probation and to join the new guild they put you on secrete double probation!) the new gear all bindable is more powerful and with the revamps going on on mobs. make the ED mobs learn and get far more powerful. give them more abilitys in a one on one Your *** is ganna get creamed a "group" (4 or more) can handle 2 or 3 tops. UNLESS you have this new uber gear then the playing field is leveled a bit. Make the ED a FEARED place! give them the abilty to hit flying targets! no more stand on a bridge and they run away stand there and DIE! I can rember as a newbie the terror and sweating i did when i went there the first time sneaking about and then being murdered almost instantly ! now as a I think i am rated 170? shoot ED ok I have to tread a lil softly but hey very lil in there i cannot handle. Wanna be Uber wanna be cool join the ELITE SCHOOLS Only WE have the UBER toys! Sure some the the bigger guilds will have the new stuff but the smaller guilds the hungry guilds will band together and form alliances and soon you will see everyone wearing the new gear. and THAT gear NEEDS to be Charged and the new comps decay sitting in a vault (older gear/comps stays the same no losses no my weapon is broken what ever) make new line of gear/techs that well people go OMG I WANT THAT! You live where? OMG that's where the cool kids live! Hey they can buy a DAYPASS only 200 s and come visit! but ya cannot stay more then 6 hours and then your pass expires(4 complementary passes a month 1 pass a week and it decays in 1 week talk to the gate guard for your pass) and you get teleported out. so people can see whats the new place looks like and how it is developing oh and the new guilds live in the pretty place. Hmm we can call it Fantasy island where all your dreams can come true! for a price.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    *gleefully snowballs pyledriver*
    Dragon Scroll; BLIGHT~Anam, Ahleah; CHAOS~Veruliyam, Ceruliyan, Jaguarundi, Spinel, Ssussurrouss, Chon; ORDER~Aucapoma, Susurrus

  12. #32

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    ouch pyledriver, i vote you add paragraph separations every 4-5 lines so that i can read that more easily. i got lost in the middle because it's hard to read that formatting.

  13. #33

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    lol Awdz

    Hmmm, another simple sink that Pyledriver has half-suggested is to charge for vault access... call it an account keeping fee, whatever. I know there are better money sinks (or ideas to not require money sinks at all) but I keep thinking "what would be the easiest for devs to implement?". Seeing as we already have portal fees, consigner fees, etc then some more Empire-related fees should, in theory, be possible. As long as they were tiered to your rating.
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  14. #34

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    actually fees for having your vault overstuffed would make a lot of sense... be painful for me with all the item stack i have in there now but would encourage folks to clean up a little maybe.

  15. #35

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    lol my vault is exactly the same. I rarely have room to put anything in it
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  16. #36

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Sorry I'm against any type of money sink in the game.

    Not everyone who is "elder' Is Rich. In fact I'd be surprised if its even half the active "elders".

    I've had 300ish silver in my bank for years now, ever since the initial lair selling when I spent my money (and others) to get my plot. Since then I've been building..and building..and building on my own plot with what little time i get in game each month.

    And I've had about the same amount of money all that time. I login for my handful of hours a couple times, I craft for my lair, I talk with my friends.

    Money sinks for all these things would equal a cancelled sub for me. I don't want to be forced to do a handful of other things just to have the money to craft for myself (simply because of various money sinks for things that are constant).


    I already have an account keeping fee..its called the MONTHLY SUB.

    So I really hope we don't go down that path. There are other ways to stimulate the economy...
    Last edited by Frith-Rae; November 7th, 2009 at 04:51 AM. Reason: added stuff
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    am with frith on this issue. i have a little less than 63gp on vel, considerably less on mw and snake has maybe 25gp.
    and that is after several years of begging vicegod to let me tag along on bridge meets, not to pl, but to get my share of all that coin floating around........

    that may seem like a lot, but if you start tacking on taxes and fees for everything in game, it will go really quickly......

    i have been in games where i haven't had the money to do the things i needed to get done, so i left the game completely (rubies of eventide comes to mind).

    i think the idea of making all port destinations pay to port is a fair one, tho......as it stands, there seems to be many more places you can go to for free than there are to pay to port. the vault upgrades are the only fees i feel are necessary, as far as that goes. i pay a real money fee already for my plot (and if you count posting about istaria, i pay for 2) already.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Stagnacy is regression...
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  19. #39

    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    Quote Originally Posted by Frith-Rae View Post
    Sorry I'm against any type of money sink in the game.

    Not everyone who is "elder' Is Rich. In fact I'd be surprised if its even half the active "elders".

    I've had 300ish silver in my bank for years now, ever since the initial lair selling when I spent my money (and others) to get my plot. Since then I've been building..and building..and building on my own plot with what little time i get in game each month.

    And I've had about the same amount of money all that time. I login for my handful of hours a couple times, I craft for my lair, I talk with my friends.

    Money sinks for all these things would equal a cancelled sub for me. I don't want to be forced to do a handful of other things just to have the money to craft for myself (simply because of various money sinks for things that are constant).


    I already have an account keeping fee..its called the MONTHLY SUB.

    So I really hope we don't go down that path. There are other ways to stimulate the economy...
    I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but it sounds to me like you are "rich" From (one of the many) online dictionarys: "Rich - having wealth or great possessions; abundantly supplied with resources, means, or funds; wealthy". If you have had 300s for years, and that value hasn't changed, and you are still able to get all the items you need (either yourself, or via friends in-game), then are you not rich? <dodgey accent> Dost thou wanteth for nothing, my Liege?

    As LOV pointed out - sounds like stagnation! This isn't your fault, IMHO it is the sign of a broken economy. The economy in Istaria as it stands does not impact players who are rich (by my previous definition). They may not have much money, but they want for nothing, so they don't actually have to spend it. We (and I include me!) does not have to strive for anything at all. It does, however, impact new players joining the game. In particular those that choose to craft instead of hunt.

    It makes it hard for new players that join to earn any coin off their own sweat, so to speak. If you want to craft in-game, but not adventure, you are so-out-of-luck to be able to make money to purchase the goods you need. There is no market available to support new players, and that to me is a serious issue when we are trying to encourage people to play. That means you are quickly limited to quests and PB for your money supply. Ouch.

    Velv - if you manage to whittle away 63 gold via taxes, then we are all in serious trouble! The most I've ever had is 3.5 gold lol and I used that to buy my nice little plot in Harro, after a heck of a lot of hoard selling, trophy hunting, and so on.

    Can you give me an example of things you couldn't do without enough money? The only Istarian example I can think of is not being able to use a portal because you couldn't afford it. That could easily be rectified by having a portal fee adjusted to the amount of money you have. i.e. you have 63 gold, it costs you 1s to use a portal. You have 10 copper, it costs you 1c to use the same portal.

    P.S. Not trying to be attacking, I am genuinely interested in possible issues with my crazy suggestions, as I have only every played two MMORPGs in my life - Asheron's Call (2 weeks lol) and Istaria since launch. So my experience of money sinks is limited to forum postings and what I read on the 'net
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  20. #40
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    Default Re: From destruction comes rebirth: items could "break"

    In my nearly 2 years, I haven't even seen a gold coin. I bought my lair before I had that much, and I've still been kind of broke either way. Low levels it's kind of hard to find anything to earn money with. I remember finding mobs that drop coin and just hunting those.

    I still don't think more money sinks are needed directly, but things such as attuned scales/armor or possibly the need of more recharge kits might help. I'd definitely be in favor of tech'd equipment attuning on equip. I'd say do the same to blighted equipment, but that already requires a recharge kit so it doesn't matter too much.

    At the same time, I do agree that even with what little money I have, I rarely use it for much. Mostly for portals and when I was trying to become an adult, hoard. Sometimes on confectioner food, but I don't adventure much anymore and I tend to sleep off most death points anyways.

    I've played quite a few other MMOs, but the only one I really ever played for a great deal of time was Ragnarok Online, which is quite a bit different. The most notable money sinks there were portals to other towns - from the npcs, or paying an acolyte-line character to open a portal for you - and buying potions and other essentials from NPCs, which became cheaper to do from another player due to merchants having a 'discount' skill when buying from NPCs.

    The only other thing I can think of that RO did was have a chance of equipment breaking while refining it. Once you tried getting an equip up past +5, things got into scary dangerous territory. That sort of thinking doesn't really apply to Istaria though. I was perpetually broke as a noob in RO simply because I was spending all my money on health potions at the merchants.

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