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Thread: The FUTURE

  1. #21

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    @Akrion I totally agree, moving backwards using techniques that are outdated by the capabilities of this games engine is a bad idea. This is why I stated "Techniques/virtues" because like you said, the developers of those older console games were tricking the system to create effects they can't normally achieve. To achieve the real effects the games of old were trying to produce is the right step foreward, and is what I'm trying to point out here as a good idea.

    @Frith-Rae I agree with you as well Frith, Lag is a big issue here, I've already been over issues related to loading the world around the character via streaming environment... There are many more lag causers like the ones you described as well, and they fit under the category of the appearence of the game. You visually see choppy animation, and jumpy code when the game lags.

    One thing I'd like to point out to you both though is that game play does have a direct correlation to graphical quality, or at least it can. It all depends on what kind of improvements we're talking about here. Immersion is a popular term in the gaming world. One of the primary examples of Immersion is where you play a role or character, and interact with characters that you're expected to be able to sympathise with or understand their emotions. One of the greatest techniques to create Immersion for your players, is to provide a detailed experience that lets your player project their personality into the world. Voice-overs for characters or NPCs is becoming a more popular technique in the MMO world.

    For example:
    (In an imaginary world where crazy stuff like I'm about to explain happens, bear with me.)

    Example One [Istaria Now]:
    I'm the NPC, standing in a static pose, not moving, and I'm confronted by one of you the players in conversation with a text box paragraph, I remain completely silent but I've just conveyed a message to you, my face stays stale and in a straight foreward stare expression, but in the paragraph I explain something I'm truely passionate about that I've lost, and I need you to go find it. [So you go on the quest] I thank you and promise to provide you with training to improve your <ability> in exchange for your time to do this for me.

    Example Two [Immersive Techniques]:
    I'm the NPC, looking busy wherever I am. I'm breathing, blinking, and working at some desk or something, looking concerned when you confront me. I turn to you and sigh audibly, captions come up on screen as a speak to aid your understanding, but everything I say is heard in a voice over. I talk to you and aknowledge you as a living being in this world and beseech you to find <item> I'm passionate about... I lost it in <place> and I can't continue working happily without it... (You accept the quest) I smile and give you a cheesy thumbs up or something like that, and thank you in advance. I then tell you I'll provide you with some training to improve your <ability> in exchange for your time to do this for me.

    Through all of example two you can hear the changes in tone of my voice and really hear emotions come forth from what would normally be a static mound of text, from a stale unmoving NPC. As a core gamer, I feel much more involved and have much more fun with a game that engages me and makes me feel like I'm part of it's world. Mass Effect 1 and 2 show how making engaging characters and backstories can improve the immersion/gameplay.

    Now before you go... "Well Fermi they can't do this NOW, the dev team is too small." I know the Dev team is tiny. I think one of the best ways for the small team to get around this weakness is to use the strength in their fans. It would be absolutely fun in my opinion, if the team could involve fans to help them make improvements to the game. Those of us with mics and recording programs, could try and voice act some of the dialogue, or changed dialogue in game, and the devs need only simply add playback to the game of voices they think fit the characters. I have no doubt some of you would be more than happy to provide voicing for free as long as you get side credit for the contribution.

    Small gestures like speaking animations aren't difficult and can be looped, they don't have to be absolutely unique either because this is an MMO, and there just isn't time to make every part of the game like the new Final Fantasy games or Mass Effect titles. However this is the good thing about smaller improvements like this, they have a much greater impact in the immersion factor of the gameplay, which is extremely important in the overall enjoyability of the game, and like Frith said "Masking the grind." It makes you feel like your character has more of a purpose in what he or she is doing.

    On a side note, no I'm not saying everything should be abandoned on the fix-it list to go for graphics only... I'm saying that improvements like these would be a good idea and of interest to gain customers and keep them around longer.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: The FUTURE

    The devs already accept work from players. There have been a number of player-made mods that have been put into the game: colored wisps, colored UI options, and extra emotes for dragons to name a few. They have the art intern program. The only 3D artist I ever hear about VI having (Solitaire) started out as a player and may even be one of those involved with that intern program, if I recall right.

    I think the actual difficulty of some of these improvements (like voice acting) is being vastly underestimated. I don't think the roadblock with voice acting would be getting the voices. I think it would making it work in the first place.

    As far as I've heard from the devs, even something that looks relatively simple to an outside viewer, like Pratt's movement and speech in NT, was not easy to do and that's why he's the only NPC that does stuff like that, barring the random emotes from Gerix in Kion.

    If making a character change position on the map and throw out a few lines of timed dialogue to appear to be conversing with two other NPCs is "not easy", I think expecting things like voice acting and bump mapping is unrealistic, no matter the time frame.

    This game is already nearly seven years old and the only single significant improvement to the graphics was the spell effect change so that spell effects actually played every time they were supposed to. It used to be really hit or miss before that. And I'm not talking about new textures/models, but graphic system improvements. In fact, as far as I know, it used to have realistic shadows and lost that feature, so it's basically even with how it released.

    To get massive improvements (and that's what something like bump mapping would probably be: a massive undertaking), VI probably would have to shelf most of their to-do list and focus on just that thing for a long time. It's just not a big enough return on the investment of time when almost no one quits Istaria because of the graphics.

    People quit Istaria because of gameplay. Istaria is a grindfest. Not that that's an insult, but really.. it is. Most of the current generation of gamers get turned off real quick by a grind that has nothing to mask it, and that's what Istaria is based on.

    Another big problem with Istaria and another big reason people quit is bugs. There are bugs in the adult dragon Rite of Passage quest that make it necessary to start over. This is a quest that takes pretty much at least a day to complete. Graphics are not going to make up for the frustration of wasting a day and having to start over.

    Then there's also the lag. And no, that isn't all caused by loading terrain. There's lag when you first enter a new cell, even if you have it in your cache. You'll have to wait five or ten minutes sometimes for the server to get up to speed. Then there's the oft cited memory leak from teleporting. I know someone who will get massive lag spikes on a purely client-side basis where they can die and never even know they were getting attacked and it has nothing to do with downloading terrain.

    This game has much bigger things it needs to fix than graphics that many feel are still quite pretty, is what I'm saying.

    What Istaria can benefit from in the graphics department, in my opinion, is smaller changes like giving dragon spells proper effects rather than obvious placeholders. Maybe new character creation options where they are lacking; last I looked, human/elf/etc. hair/hair color choices were somewhat limited. New weapon/armor models and textures. All things that can be done without having to update the core of the game.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  3. #23

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by fermi443 View Post
    the developers of those older console games were tricking the system to create effects they can't normally achieve.
    No, the developer's weren't tricking the system to create effects they can't normally achieve, that's impossible. They were emulating effects via other means and tricking you into thinking the effects were better than they actually were, there's a difference .


    Quote Originally Posted by fermi443 View Post
    One thing I'd like to point out to you both though is that game play does have a direct correlation to graphical quality, or at least it can. It all depends on what kind of improvements we're talking about here. Immersion is a popular term in the gaming world.
    Gameplay is enhanced by graphics. That's the only way it can go, and the only way it has ever gone. If the gameplay isn't good, the graphics won't change anything. Graphics depend on gameplay to make a game good, gameplay does not depend on graphics to make a game good. There's a reason why Indie developers are doing so well right now. Gameplay first, graphics second. Istaria currently needs gameplay improvements, not graphical improvements.

  4. #24

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion View Post
    No, the developer's weren't tricking the system to create effects they can't normally achieve, that's impossible. They were emulating effects via other means and tricking you into thinking the effects were better than they actually were, there's a difference .




    Gameplay is enhanced by graphics. That's the only way it can go, and the only way it has ever gone. If the gameplay isn't good, the graphics won't change anything. Graphics depend on gameplay to make a game good, gameplay does not depend on graphics to make a game good. There's a reason why Indie developers are doing so well right now. Gameplay first, graphics second. Istaria currently needs gameplay improvements, not graphical improvements.
    First off yes, I got it the first time, that they use tricks with the system to trick you, 'english my grammar use I didn't the right sorry way'... XP

    Secondly that is exactly what I said, and I agree, gameplay isn't all graphics. I never said it was. However I said graphics and the experience created by specific creative techniques can amplify the gaming experience, and generate positive and engaging gameplay, or immersion as I explained.

    @Raptress

    I'm fully aware the devs have accepted player created work, what I'm suggesting is that we the fans think about new projects like voice acting and such that would add to the graphical experience.

    However I was not aware that the flexibility of the engine used to code this game was out the door and up in the air in terms of playing sounds, running scripted events/animations on call. I figured that because you can get the viewer to play music based on a location's call for it, you could do the same for events like greeting an NPC for a specific quest. If its much harder than that then its something to maybe look at as a far set long term goal. I didn't know that the engine was so hard to manipulate to produce particle effects on call, or to change them.

    I have a lot of experience with the programming in Second Life, which has been around for a long time, and from what I observe, it generally isn't hard to code particles with the right type of engine. Granny apparently isn't the right type of engine to accept configurations like that easily? I don't know, I've never had the time to get a good look at how it works yet. But if I do get some time after school, I'll look up some manuals and try to learn the particle configuration process in Granny maybe make something nice for the Devs.

    Anyways Raptress I already have agreed with you. I stated as well that the smaller fixes are the most important, and you emphasized on almost precisely what I said. They eventually pile up and become a great change to the game that improves the experience. What I want to see... this whole rant is because I wish I could see it before I get any older. (I'm 20 already D: ) I am aware its going to take a long time and a lot of effort, and I'd like to see it done to improve on this great game.
    Last edited by fermi443; September 19th, 2010 at 03:54 AM.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by fermi443 View Post
    I have a lot of experience with the programming in Second Life, which has been around for a long time, and from what I observe, it generally isn't hard to code particles with the right type of engine.
    "Programming" in Second Life is not going to be the same as Istaria. LSL is a scripting language, not a programming language. Even though you use LSL, Second Life itself is not coded in LSL. SL has to take your LSL script and make it work with means that you probably won't ever be aware of.

    Istaria does not have the capability to be scripted. (Reference: here.) It probably all has to be done in whatever language the game is written in (probably C++), which is going to be quite a bit more complex than scripting languages.

    And yes, I've seen you say you want to see smaller changes that build up into a bigger thing, but the examples I've seen of these "small" changes aren't really very small. Truly small and feasible changes are not going to add up to a final product that looks like Lair. It's going to add up to a game that looks basically the same as Istaria does now, just with more variety and maybe a little more polish.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  6. #26

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Nice rant, very constructive
    I had the same discussion over the support team.

    What would be the best then to you guys ?
    Start a Horizons 2 project with:

    -The same server technology ( Evolution on that part could be applied to Istaria)
    -New gameplay,graphics ( New parts in the engine...)
    -Link the two titles with some kind of transfert (The novo for example)

    It would require a big amount of time for sure.
    But the community could help on such a project

    Any other ideas on how build this future ?

  7. #27

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by fermi443 View Post
    I have a lot of experience with the programming in Second Life, which has been around for a long time, and from what I observe, it generally isn't hard to code particles with the right type of engine.
    There's a big difference between scripting in Second Life and programming with a language such as C++. The reason why it isn't hard to code particles with LSL is because in the background, that is within the source running Second Life, that has already been dealt with.

    It may be easy to set up particle effects with LSL, but that's because it was designed to be so. The code set up in the background to allow for such ease, however, will be much more complex. With an engine in mind, it will allow for easier configuration of said particles so I'm not saying adding some more particle effects in Istaria would be a monstrous task, but the task of pushing particle effects past what the engine is designed for would be. (Or doing anything outside the scope of the engine, in that case)

    Any new thing added to Istaria that doesn't have existing support will need to be built from the ground up, and in compliance with existing code. With LSL, while you still do build the script from the ground up, there are a lot more shortcuts given to you and a lot less management of every operation you need to do, specifically with all the llFunctions provided.

    The function llFloor(); is a good example. With LSL, if you want to floor a number, for the sake of simplicity you just call the function and provide it a number: llFloor(3.75);

    In a situation where you don't have a long list of functions available to you, however, if you wanted to make a floor function in C++ you would have to build the function first before you could use it, which in that case would be something like this:

    Code:
    #include <iostream>
    using namespace std;
    
    #include <math.h>
    
    float Floor(float val)
    {
         val = floor(val);
         return val;
    }
    
    int main()
    {
         float number = 3.75;
         number = Floor(number);
         return 0;
    }
    You essentially have to make the functions you need before you can even start working on what you needed the functions for. I'm not saying that the devs would need to do this for everything, for they might already have what they need available to them, I'm just saying that it's not likely going to be as easy as getting something to work with LSL. :3

    Your ideas for improving the graphics arn't bad, they would just be very time consuming and require alot of attention from the staff to accomplish. Attention that, again, is far more worth applying to improving gameplay for the moment.



    Quote Originally Posted by Milandra View Post
    Nice rant, very constructive
    I had the same discussion over the support team.

    What would be the best then to you guys ?
    Start a Horizons 2 project with:

    -The same server technology ( Evolution on that part could be applied to Istaria)
    -New gameplay,graphics ( New parts in the engine...)
    -Link the two titles with some kind of transfert (The novo for example)

    It would require a big amount of time for sure.
    But the community could help on such a project

    Any other ideas on how build this future ?

    The new graphics engine would, unfortunately, be the killing point for an Istaria 2.

    You essentially have 2 options if you want a new engine:
    1) Buy one, for a lot of money. (Can be anywhere from $10,000 to over $500,000. The Unreal2 engine costs roughly $350,000 for example)
    2) Build your own which might as well cost you just as much as buying one due to the sheer number of man hours you would need to put into building it.
    Last edited by Akrion; September 19th, 2010 at 06:28 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Build your own which might as well cost you just as much as buying one due to the sheer number of man hours you would need to put into building it.
    Very true
    Still,this way we would be able to develop a new title and also fix some parts of the previous title.
    Better to try than just leave it as it is (And I do love this game )
    Just my 2cc

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by Milandra View Post
    Very true
    Still,this way we would be able to develop a new title and also fix some parts of the previous title.
    Better to try than just leave it as it is (And I do love this game )
    Just my 2cc
    When it involves spending thousands upon thousands of dollars with the risk of going bankrupt (again, in Istaria's case), it probably is better not to try. x3

    I'd much rather have Istaria as it is right now than risking no Istaria at all.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  10. #30

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    I'm not talking of invest thousands (that we've don't have) of dollars.
    I'd much rather have Istaria as it is right now too.

    I'm talking of working on a new title (keeping Istaria alive) by using other technologies (Some Open-source ones).
    Some components that makes Istaria are good.
    We're still playing it, right ?

    Still, I guess it may be interesting to use some other ones, for :
    -new features
    -improved performance
    -Bring some (new) customers
    -"meet the Withered aegis forces" .

    As I said, keeping the current server (Using Mantrid technology?) would give us a chance on improve the current title.
    Also,it would give us the ability to link the first title to the second one.
    I don't know if it has already be done, but it sounds like an interesting feature, doesn't it ?

    I don't have enough technical knowledge to find out if such thing is possible...
    But I do know that many players keep in mind that this game still exists.
    If they are not getting back on the game, there must be a reason

  11. #31

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    The more I look at my basic coding example, the more I hate it, since floor(val) is ultimately a function of its own declared in math.h but perhaps you can invision rounding instead of flooring and change the code to:

    Code:
    float Round(float val)
    {
         val = val + 0.5;
         return (int)val;
    }
    
    int main()
    {
         float number = 3.75;
         number = Round(number);
         return 0;
    }
    Since at the very least it actually builds a logical function, instead of building a function around the same function. xD
    Other examples I can think of to compare with various LSL functions would be much longer than I'd like to put on this thread. (Like making an example of list, llListInsertList and the other functions that involve handling a list in LSL would probably make a post rivaling the length of the longest posts in this thread just with code. x3)
    Last edited by Akrion; September 19th, 2010 at 10:54 AM.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by Milandra View Post
    I'm not talking of invest thousands (that we've don't have) of dollars.
    New games don't just pop into existence with the wave of someone's hand. Building a new game pretty much by default means VI would have to invest thousands of dollars just in man hours. Just because you don't pay for an engine does not mean that you can build a game for free. Not only that, but they would probably have to stop working on the current version of Istaria in order to get anything done in a reasonable time frame. The current version of Istaria happens to be a source of income and if the game stops getting updated many paying players may quit, which would mean even more money is lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milandra View Post
    But I do know that many players keep in mind that this game still exists.
    If they are not getting back on the game, there must be a reason
    Yes. There are reasons. Like I've said, Istaria has a lot of bugs and more than a few frustrating instances of lag. Players who get frustrated with a game quit. That's why what the devs really ought to be focusing on is fixing the issues that frustrate players and put them off from playing rather than trying to make another game that will have to carry the stigma of being associated with the buggy, laggy, grindy Istaria.

    Trying to make a sequel to an unpopular game just seems a little backwards. Successful sequels happen because their source material is popular enough to make the sequel a good risk. Making MMOs in general isn't a really good risk these days; making a sequel of an unpoplar one practically seems like a plan one would enact because they find their company just has too much cash and they want to get rid of some of it.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  13. #33

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    If one of the devs won billions of dollars at the lottery, I wouldn't be against an Istaria II

  14. #34

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by fermi443 View Post
    Example Two [Immersive Techniques]:
    I'm the NPC, looking busy wherever I am. I'm breathing, blinking, and working at some desk or something, looking concerned when you confront me. I turn to you and sigh audibly, captions come up on screen as a speak to aid your understanding, but everything I say is heard in a voice over.
    At which point you've lost me as a player, because I don't want to - every time I go to anywhere with any number of NPCs and players - hear a gabble of random speech while everyone else in the area gets their quests. Just pop me up the text box that I can read at my leisure, thanks.

    I would rather see invented ways that crafting - particularly for dragons, who aside from lairshaping can't really make anything that is of any practical use or that anyone wants to buy unless they've got a set of rare/discontinued techniques - can be made more questy, less grindy. I miss being able to do the Quartermasters' Quests for coin and XP - at least that felt like being *productive* instead of "dig gems. Make gems. Eat gems. Rinse. Repeat."
    - Kesqui - Formerly of Ice, now of Chaos, lair in Liak
    First Rebirth 12-12-2003 / Ascended to Ancient 12-12-2010

  15. #35

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesqui View Post
    At which point you've lost me as a player, because I don't want to - every time I go to anywhere with any number of NPCs and players - hear a gabble of random speech while everyone else in the area gets their quests. Just pop me up the text box that I can read at my leisure, thanks.
    What about the player who takes a quest (and this player only) was hearing the NPC's (which he/she takes the quest) voice? The text log could still be there.
    Last edited by LungTien Temeraire; September 20th, 2010 at 12:49 PM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien Temeraire View Post
    What about the layer who takes a quest (and this player only) was hearing the NPC's (which he/she takes the quest) voice? The text log could still be there.
    If there were an option in settings to shut it off, fair enough.

    I don't want to hear the NPCs at all - I just want to read the text, and would find the speech distracting.

    As I said, I'd prefer more new quests (like the Dalimond Peninsula revamp) and general gameplay updates (including lag issues and that troublesome no-community-machines-can-be-activated bug) rather than sparkly fluff updates. I consider voice acting and graphics updates to be sparkly fluff, no matter how big a job they'd actually be.
    - Kesqui - Formerly of Ice, now of Chaos, lair in Liak
    First Rebirth 12-12-2003 / Ascended to Ancient 12-12-2010

  17. #37

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    I dislike full voice-acting myself. In fact, there are a couple PS2 RPGs that I outright barely touched because they had voice acting I could not turn off.

    Oftentimes, when I play console games, there's someone else in the room with me on a nearby computer, and they don't want to (or make fun of, or make stupid comments about) everything that's said in a game and that turns me off on playing the game altogether.

    Too many RPGs have _mandatory_ voice-acting, that you _cannot_ turn off. I don't want Istaria to become another game like that. Something like WoW has (where an NPC just says "Hi!" when you click on them) is fine, but full-out all (or even most) dialogue VA'd? Heck no.

  18. #38

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Too many RPGs have _mandatory_ voice-acting, that you _cannot_ turn off. I don't want Istaria to become another game like that. Something like WoW has (where an NPC just says "Hi!" when you click on them) is fine, but full-out all (or even most) dialogue VA'd? Heck no.
    I totally agree that there are plenty of voiced RPGs that are terrible, and one of the reasons is this. Paid voice actors... People who are hired to simply voice a part they have little knowledge or passion about most of the time, and do what the paper says to say/how to say it. They don't mix it up or get passionate about the "acting" portion of voice acting. Voicing for every character in the game would probably be a side goal however, as covering all conversations in the game would be redundant, and take longer compared to simply voicing the key storyline characters that matter. Giving a shopkeep a voice makes no sense when he is just going to say the same thing over and over. But for example giving the hatchling on the new dragon character island and the ones on from that point in the storyline for dragon characters would provide immersion for first time players.

    The process for choosing the right voice for the characters would probably involve a vote from the community towards who the best candidate for each character would be. People trying out to voice a character would upload and submit their voice clips on a special forum thread or something similar.

    It may only be greetings, it may not be.. that depends on the willingness of the developers in the imaginary world where this was actually happening, for them to create animations for speech/gesturing. Time will most certainly tell.

  19. #39

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    like LungTien said =- the idea of "Horizons II" or a new engine at all, or even using an existing engine and building a new Horizons on it -

    Is one of those "If an obsessed player won the lottery...." options .

    It takes YEARS to build a game, even on an already existing engine like Unreal II, and that's with your average dev team size (I'm thinking a few dozen here...). Building the engine from scratch - add another couple of years. Its why most games take 5-6 years to go from "concept you hear about released on the web" to beta and then maybe live.

    So even if some player hit the lotto tomorrow, turned around, and started hiring for Horizons II - and say using an already built engine - you'd be seeing H2 coming around in ehhh...3-4 years. And that's a lot of big iffs and a crapton of money...

    Better to focus on what we CAN do, with what is POSSIBLE with this current engine (not sure voice overs are even a possibility, nor necessarily moving NPCs - they've taken out a few of those over the years) then have pipe-dream discussions that may only be disapointing to soeone who comes and thinks its possible to do..

    Not that you shouldn't have your pipedream discussions - but don't intersperse it with reality statements like "the players can help do this..."
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  20. #40

    Default Re: The FUTURE

    Quote Originally Posted by Frith-Rae View Post
    Not that you shouldn't have your pipedream discussions - but don't intersperse it with reality statements like "the players can help do this..."
    I am more than happy to say that if this were a possibility players could do that, because if that situation was in fact a factual one outside of this RANT section of the forum, then sure it would happen only because the developers were interested in it in that imaginary world. Speaking purely fictional with my pipe dreams/complaints in a section of the forum that is designed as a reception for such dreams/complaints is a logical use of this section. If I've excited any of you and completely bummed you out with my words of things that haven't and probably aren't going to happen. Then I'm sorry but you've sadly mistaken this section of the forum with the "Talk to the Developers" or the "Developers Desk" section, which are full of "Statements" you should really be getting excited about.

    I'm well aware 500% of the two facts. That the developers are very few. Also the time for such proposed and fictional improvements is long. I'm all for constructive criticism but please say something different and express a personal opinion other than. "I'm with <name>... Blah blah blah copy paste what the last person said but reworded." I want to know what you think about it, or pipe-dream ideas you may have, I ranted and it is a good place to subsequently submit thoughts onto it. Get all excited about something fake if you're really that gullable... Thats your choice see I'm not a developer so obviously its not confirmed fact and its not true. Go look in the Developers Desk or Talk to the Developers if you really don't know where to look for the facts.

    I'm more than happy to have this discussion with you guys but please don't come along and give any complaining that I'm wrong for sharing ideas/dreams with people and ranting because they're not real with fellow fans who like to imagine those things being possible as well. Players could help do those things if it actually was an active set in stone improvement to the game that the devs cared about... but its not, go look, its easy to see that. So what if its not happening... its still fun to dream up awesome things about how things might be.

    You know whats funny though, some concepts and ideas originally deemed as impossible or over the top and fictional by development teams actually end up getting picked up after being shared, brainstormed and discussed. Halo Reach has a huge map titled Forge World that started out as a completely impossible addition to the game that the development team couldn't do, but they didn't want to stop the concept artist who was creating this "beautiful" landscape down on canvas. One of the lead developers got wind of his creation and with his help the team deciphered a way to make Forge World possible. Now it serves as a medium for creative players to manipulate game objects to create personalized maps in the game, and a huge canvas to play with. Lets not get our hopes up that these ideas of ours are going to actually happen, but you never know what may actually be possible for the development team, given enough time and contemplation on different ideas brought to light.

    So please share with me what you think would make the game more enjoyable graphicly or quality of gameplay.. even if it couldn't happen ever.
    Last edited by fermi443; September 25th, 2010 at 09:38 AM.

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