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Thread: Monkey Rant!

  1. #1

    Default Monkey Rant!

    So my Beloved Wife got me a Dim Crystal of Might after I saw it in action. After much excitement I fire it up into a newly made andwrap and.... I am doing somewhere around *20* damage a hit with it... I was... stunned... This was against level 80 monsters, and I have about 1200 power and strength so if it was based on strength or power I should be doing a lot more than *20*.... I couldn't figure it out.

    Then I realized... what if 'extra damage' was delay adjusted too? I stuff it into a staff and then the damage bumped up to 150's.

    Ok, it's bad enough that alacrity puts us fast attack classes are at a severe disadvantage already, and that all those silly percent abilities are about useless, and that the 'delay adjustment' effect of armour is a joke, but do these new crystals and such need to be delay adjusted into uselessness too?

    GRRRRR........

    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  2. #2

    Default ?

    Not disagreeing with you but what do you mean about the Delay Adjustment hurting Fast Attackers and how does Alacrity make it worse?
    "Nothing Is Never Not... everything is never."-Vacuus, Lord of Nothing

  3. #3

    Default Re: ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkuu View Post
    Not disagreeing with you but what do you mean about the Delay Adjustment hurting Fast Attackers and how does Alacrity make it worse?
    Hmmm....

    I'd have to agree with Shinkuu on this one.

    It *looks* like you're only doing 20 damage with the procs, but... consider this:

    If you have a staff that does 150 damage on a proc, I assume that you throw roughly 7 punches in the time it takes to swing the staff once? In that case, it balances out.

    I never got a stopwatch to time this, but I know that in any other game, things are delay-adjusted for a reason. If they weren't, they would be horribly unbalanced. The only procs that aren't delay-adjusted are those that proc for a %, or they have a limitation of X procs per Y time.

    So...

    If you have a dagger that attacks every second, vs a great axe that attacks once every 3 seconds...

    If the Proc on the great axe does 150, the proc on the dagger should only do 50. Why? Because the dagger attacks 3 times to the great axe's once. It balances out -- over 3 seconds, they both do 150 from the procs.

    As far as Alacrity goes, remember "My Dear Aunt Sally" in mathematics:

    Alacrity V: Delay / 4 = New Delay

    Now, if your delay is normally 3 seconds, then you gain the benefit of attacking once every 2 and a quarter seconds.

    If your delay is normally 1 second, then you gain the benefit of attacking once every three-quarters of a second.

    You appear to gain a smaller bonus, but when you figure how many attacks per X time in, you will find that you still gain 25% more attacks over X time, whether you use fists, daggers, or a great axe.

    The only place where it wouldn't balance out, is if the delay-adjusted procs aren't adjusted quite right to make it balance out equally. I don't have exact numbers (again, use a stopwatch. If the staff procs for 150s and the fists for 20, like I said above, the fists should hit 7 times to the staff's once).

    Edit: To be honest, I think the Dim Crystal of Might is a tad overpowered anyways. A Tier 1 item, adding 150 damage per attack, to a Lv80+'s 2-handed weapon? Something about that doesn't sound quite right IMO.
    Last edited by Dhalin; October 2nd, 2010 at 10:17 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Edit: To be honest, I think the Dim Crystal of Might is a tad overpowered anyways. A Tier 1 item, adding 150 damage per attack, to a Lv80+'s 2-handed weapon? Something about that doesn't sound quite right IMO.
    It's not exactly a tier one item, it just looks like one because the word "dim" is in the name. I believe it's a rare and no longer obtainable crystal from an old Christmas event. You can't just go out and farm one up, at least I don't think so.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  5. #5

    Default Re: ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    It's not exactly a tier one item, it just looks like one because the word "dim" is in the name. I believe it's a rare and no longer obtainable crystal from an old Christmas event. You can't just go out and farm one up, at least I don't think so.
    Maybe I'm confusing it with another Dim crystal that everyone wants... oh wait, I'm thinking that crystal that converts damage to x... I forget what the X is...

    Either way, the Dim Crystal of Might sounds plenty overpowered... yet another old item that only a few players have, that newer players can't get, and is significant enough to be a disadvantage/overpowering if you don't have, or have it.

    I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet, if that's true. Didn't they also nerf the boar's hide mask, partly due to this reason? And PV scales?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet, if that's true. Didn't they also nerf the boar's hide mask, partly due to this reason? And PV scales?
    I think the only "nerf" they did was to make them attune on equip.. which isn't a nerf at all and simply means that new players have a pretty much nil chance of getting these items, yet old players still get to keep them. -_- I don't believe the DCoM is attuned though.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  7. #7

    Default Re: ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Maybe I'm confusing it with another Dim crystal that everyone wants... oh wait, I'm thinking that crystal that converts damage to x... I forget what the X is...

    Either way, the Dim Crystal of Might sounds plenty overpowered... yet another old item that only a few players have, that newer players can't get, and is significant enough to be a disadvantage/overpowering if you don't have, or have it.

    I'm surprised it hasn't been nerfed yet, if that's true. Didn't they also nerf the boar's hide mask, partly due to this reason? And PV scales?
    Some players, have, as well, spells with techniques which are no longer obtainables.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    150 damage per attack
    Its rare event item and base damage is 15-25, like many of extra damage tech kits which are in game and avaliable for everyone.. output based on strength, so only does over 100 if you have maxed stat.. the damage is not direct also, so i disagree, its powerfull enough but not overpowered..
    Timeo danaos et dona ferentis..

  9. #9

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    They did not nerf BHM or PV scale, Dhalin.
    Like Raptress said, they are attuned now, and you can`t make it triple teched
    (with pv) anymore.

    I ask all new players not to envy us for the old techs or items.
    They are the TRUE veteran rewards ingame
    YOU told me to play a dragon!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    What's this I hear about Dcom getting attuned? If this is true, that has to be the worst idea yet. I finally have an item that is rare, actually 2 Dcoms, and now I can't use it in the future to trade for items or cash. This Attuned crap has gotta stop. Some people like to interchange the xstal onto alts or let friends use. I lent my extra to my gf's toon. I like my dcom, but i notice it is getting nerfed on many mobs. High lvl mobs epic mobs last night I just noticed the damage decrease on blight hounds. Wasn't like that a month ago. Why don't the dev's give every player a dcom, bhm, triple tech scale and hell one of every epic item drop in game. I hope this isn't getting attuned I heard in game from another player, otherwise this would have been a ninja nerf for me.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Lets get this back on track

    The issue that Hratli raised was not to do with the 'legacy' items but to do with the DPS calcs and how a lower delay on a weapon is actually biased to damage calculation (when a delay modifier is added).

    To me this is a return to the old monks issue list where I believe this has already been mentioned.

    Whats interesting to me is that unarmed and tooth and claw are very similar to each other (both work as unarmed, same stat bonuses, very similar weapon delays), however you dont see the same low damage values on a dragon.

    Note this is a standard claw attack, not any active abilities/techniques etc.

    The difference being here that Dragons have lots of passive damage modifiers that push the base damage upwards to be more in line with other schools.

    Perhaps monks/disciples need something similar?

    On a separate note *rant mode on*

    Just because another player may have a rare item/ability that you don't personally own doesn't mean that it should automatically be nerfed. (Example OMG Bipeds have too many Gift spells they need to be nerfed)

    Also as was said in the opening post, the DCOM in this case was acquired (probably purchased) by Hralti's other half, therefore if you want an item desperately enough then you can still acquire it.

    (Please don't say they don't exist on Order, its not an acceptable arguement).

    *rant mode off*
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


  12. #12

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Have not heard about a possible attuning but I would have to agree that would be a rather lame thing to do.

    I'm pretty sure all damage adding crystals have always been delay adjusted. I noticed this with dcom over a year ago when doing testing in the arena. The added damage is lower, but more often for say dragons and monks. The damage done over time should be identical though. Simple example: say a 20 delay dirk or handwrap the item adds on average 38 damage per hit, will add 76 on average in a 40 delay sword. This is a good thing otherwise an extra 38 damage in a very slow swinging axe would make all the damage adding crystals worthless. Over time the damage totals out, not sure what there is to complain about...

    In fact it's when something is NOT delay adjusted that it then is not fair to all players. Example, mental bane tech. This has strict percent chance to go off. In otherwords it would go off more on faster casting spells such as spirit bolt, vs say other bolts. Not really fair. Although truth be told I think this tech doesn't even work at all last I tried using my mental bane teched spell..

  13. #13

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chasing View Post
    Just because another player may have a rare item/ability that you don't personally own doesn't mean that it should automatically be nerfed. (Example OMG Bipeds have too many Gift spells they need to be nerfed)

    Also as was said in the opening post, the DCOM in this case was acquired (probably purchased) by Hralti's other half, therefore if you want an item desperately enough then you can still acquire it.

    (Please don't say they don't exist on Order, its not an acceptable arguement).

    *rant mode off*
    The only thing people ever trade super rare unobtainable items for these days are for other super rare unobtainable items. This limits the trading strictly to people who already have something like that. New players will never get in on that.

    I find it amusing that you post about getting the thread back on track then proceed to rant the thread off track.

  14. #14

    Default Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chibisuke View Post
    Its rare event item and base damage is 15-25, like many of extra damage tech kits which are in game and avaliable for everyone.. output based on strength, so only does over 100 if you have maxed stat.. the damage is not direct also, so i disagree, its powerfull enough but not overpowered..
    I only know of one Damage Tech Kit you can make if not a Dragon. Would love to know about any other that I could get and make more than once.

    To: Dhalin You cannot really agree with me because I was not really stating anything lol. I was asking a question but I think you almost answered it anyway.

    I have done tests and can say positively that two-handed weapons (like Swords and Staves etc.) are more powerful than One handed ones even if you measure their Damage Per Second rather than Volley (aka per hit). This difference gets worse the more extra damage you throw onto them because it is increasingly more powerful for a two handed weapon vs. a one handed. HOWEVER, MOST one handed weapons allow you to use a shield which at least for a Reaver I find can more than make up for the loss of a bit of extra damage AND you MUST hit with every swing of the Two-Hander in order to beat the One Handed weapon or you begin to lose the DPS calculation by throwing 0's into the equation.

    Now I think what the OP may be noting is that Gloves take up both hands (thus not allowing a shield) but have damage more akin to One Handed weapons thus leaving you with weaker attack power with no benefit.
    "Nothing Is Never Not... everything is never."-Vacuus, Lord of Nothing

  15. #15

    Default Re: Is this right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shinkuu View Post
    Now I think what the OP may be noting is that Gloves take up both hands (thus not allowing a shield) but have damage more akin to One Handed weapons thus leaving you with weaker attack power with no benefit.
    That's an interesting point. Can Monk's use shields at all? Cause if they can then it's quite a tradeoff if handwraps take up the shield slot. Been awhile since I played my monk so someone will have to get ingame and check. (I'm at work)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    No they can't use shields if useing wraps.

    COME ON, you ever try to hold something while wearing a glove? @_@

    *rantoff*
    "State your case, but do it well. I do not suffer fools gladly." ~Sereamha Balla-dor

  17. #17

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Ok, to bring this back into perspective and give you an example.

    Alacrity V gives you a -25% delay adjustment.

    Base delay on Handwrap level 90 is 22. After alacrity 17.
    Base delay on level 90 staff is 49. After alacrity is 35.

    I have about 1300 POWER and STR.

    On a test mob for 10 hits. WITH Guardian force, Flame att V:

    I average 78 damage with fists and about 21 nature DCOM
    I average 250 damage with the staff and 115 DCOM.

    With alacrity I hit twice with my fists for every swing of the staff.
    This means I do about 99*2= 198 damage with fists
    VS
    365 with staff in the SAME TIME.

    Multistrike burst damage (Compare 250*5 vs 78*5 in the same time), ANY % increase like CRIT strike (~330 damage vs 1200), are about useless. I have always known this...

    My rant now even damage kickers are severely skewed towards high damage, high delay weapons. Even the base % of proc on many techs/crystals seems to be delay adjusted! Slower the spell/weapon the more likely it will happen.

    Amon has made it VERY clear that in his mind the case is closed on the effect of armour IS DELAY ADJUSTED and is AS DESIGNED... This doesn't address the numerical data anyone can see. I suspect the problem is that resistances are NOT delay adjusted, so any 'low' damage low delay weapon will always have a damage threshhold that gets worse as monsters get higher in level.... Not that anything will ever happen about it.



    -HratLi

    HratLi SnowPelt : From Bounty to Chaos : Eyes of Istaria
    MultiCrafter, Spirit Disciple, Walking Bleed Attack.
    HratLi's Bucket of Fury : A Saris in cargo gear appears and beats on your foe.
    Damage :
    50-150 Attack Type: Bucket Duration: Until Dispelled Frequency: 0:02

  18. #18

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Quote Originally Posted by HratLi View Post
    ... This doesn't address the numerical data anyone can see. I suspect the problem is that resistances are NOT delay adjusted, so any 'low' damage low delay weapon will always have a damage threshhold that gets worse as monsters get higher in level...
    Interesting theory which may in fact be a true assessment. Can you perform this same test in the Arena, against another toon that has no flame resistance gear on?

    As far the delay adjustment on the weapon crystals, I don't really see a problem with them being delay adjusted, and the difference damage over time totals you have noted could be due to nature resistance on the mob you used, and be yet another example of the resistances not calculating in delay adjustments as you are theorizing.

    This would mean that the delay adjustment on the crystals and weapons is in fact not the source of the problem, but the lack of delay adjustment when resistances come into the equation is.

    This example could also explain why having a high amount of resistance can practically make you immune to damage, since it is essentially offering possibly extra protection. If this is the case then it means this calculation error is working both ways, meaning it affects mobs attacking us as much as it affects us attacking mobs. (which therefore cancels itself out anyway).

    Do the test in the arena on a toon with no slash, crush or flame resistances and see if the damage over time is still skewed. If it is then something is out of whack someplace for sure.. maybe try it without alacrity, or perform attacks for say 5 minutes exactly (no specials just plain attacks) once with handwraps, once with the staff, then add up the damage totals for the primary hits and seperate totals for the dcom. Be interested in your findings.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Monkey Rant!

    Just to confuse the issue further

    http://www.crimson-dawn.org/downloads/WeaponsDPS.xls

    Pulled some base calcs together
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


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