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Thread: Static Download of the World

  1. #41

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion View Post
    "In n00b words" Except I've never heard the term 'Aerial Repository' used to reference a database of terrain data, or even used in a technical meaning anywhere. Repository yes, Aerial Repository no.
    Okay, it's badly formed, in a way i mean a reference to a database of terrain data. I just couldn't find the correct expression for this.

    Istaria already does, it's your world cache. The server essentially hosts the master files which the client then uses a copy of. My console based ASCII game uses something like this to save changes to the maps for the current game while their unchanged state remains safe in reference files.
    Which should stay that way, yes. The cache however should get persistent and only be overwritten on a patch and/or a realtime world change.

    And this is not truly streaming as you were early suggesting, which is what Starstilanx and I were initially talking about. They're just static downloads as needed.
    It is streaming, it's only that you store that. Another synonym would be partial downloading. In essence, it's partial downloading, which should be achieved.

    You seem to not understand that the terrain data is already stored on a server, either on the individual shard servers or on a server of its own. Where do you think the client gets the terrain data from each time the cache is cleared? Either way, moving from dynamic downloads to static downloads would change absolutely nothing in this regard. So it doesn't have anything to do with it being a static download, and it should already be accounted for.
    Which should stay as it is, it'll be a semistatic download then. (You cannot apply plot/lair changes otherwise, as those are truly manipulating terrain)

    And again I think you're severly underestimating what would be required to physically change the map data. Regardless, the danger of this happening wouldn't change from a dynamic download to a static download.
    Anything that is on your own HDD can be manipulated easily. So can be downloaded terrain data. A version check is useless, hashing algorithms like CRC or MD5 is more change secure.


    Where have you heard that it interrupts 'regular gameplay flow data' ? The primary problem with the current method is that it causes long loading times, not that it interfers with other packets.
    It interrupts gameplay. A temporary fix could be invulnerability for or that enemies ignore the character loading + 5 seconds after loading is finished (cancelling immediately after an action).
    Last edited by Ettanin; June 8th, 2011 at 03:46 PM.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    What realistic effect would being able to download a copy of the current world cache have on game performance as it stands now?

    Would it be very much quicker for most situations? If I could just download that, it would be very much my choice, and would improve game performance. No?

    Rakku


  3. #43

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettanin View Post
    It is streaming, it's only that you store that. Another synonym would be partial downloading. In essence, it's partial downloading, which should be achieved.
    No, it's not. If it were streaming terrain data then the client would essentially be displaying the terrain as it's recieved, not recieving the terrain, saving it, and displaying it from the cache. There would be no need for a cache, and there would be no need for locally stored terrain data, because the game is displaying the terrain sent to it via stream from the server.

    Position updates are a stream (or most likely a stream). They're sent and recieved by the server on a continuious basis, regardless of if the player is moving or not. Terrain is not being streamed. It would be extremely wasteful if it was (The server would continue to send terrain info on already loaded terrain).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettanin View Post
    Which should stay as it is, it'll be a semistatic download then. (You cannot apply plot/lair changes otherwise, as those are truly manipulating terrain)
    Again you're making a statement that seems to be based on nothing. Plots and lairs are handled separately from the terrain (Mostly at least), they don't manipulate terrain in any way what-so-ever. In fact, because the Z location of plot and lair structures are linked to the Z location of the terrain, it is entirely the other way around. Modifications to the terrain will manipulate plots/lairs. (This is why they can't just easily change terrain above a lair, for example, as raising or lowering the terrain will misalign placed chambers.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettanin View Post
    Anything that is on your own HDD can be manipulated easily. So can be downloaded terrain data. A version check is useless, hashing algorithms like CRC or MD5 is more change secure.
    No it can't. I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about here. 'Anything' on your hard drive can't be manipulated easily, unless that manipulation is deleting or randomly corrupting it. I invite you to go download my ascii game in off topic and to modify the binary files (which are my map files) in a way that suggests you have absolute control over map design. I can tell you right now that unless you have the exact method behind how they were generated, you will not be able to load them correctly. And I can say with absolute confidence the same is with Istaria's .AEI files, they're proprietary to Virtrium. Any hacking one must do to achieve any sembilence of control over files like these will be anything but easy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ettanin View Post
    It interrupts gameplay. A temporary fix could be invulnerability for or that enemies ignore the character loading + 5 seconds after loading is finished (cancelling immediately after an action).
    Interrupting gameplay is not the same thing as interrupting 'Gameplay flow data' which again just leads me to believe you're just saying words for the sake of saying words.


    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit View Post
    What realistic effect would being able to download a copy of the current world cache have on game performance as it stands now?

    Would it be very much quicker for most situations? If I could just download that, it would be very much my choice, and would improve game performance. No?

    Rakku
    Go to page 2 and read the first post by Steelclaw. That may help you understand what the change would benefit. Would essentially be moving from dynamically downloaded terrain to statically downloaded terrain.
    Last edited by Akrion; June 8th, 2011 at 10:20 PM.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  4. #44

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Spirit View Post
    What realistic effect would being able to download a copy of the current world cache have on game performance as it stands now?

    Would it be very much quicker for most situations? If I could just download that, it would be very much my choice, and would improve game performance. No?

    Rakku
    If I have read the previous posts (and understood!) correctly, having a static world cache that the client has pre-downloaded would mean much quicker times moving between different areas. In particular, this would benefit portal travel. A large part of the delay is for the server to send the client the world information for the new area being visited.

    In theory, the only time the world cache (or parts thereof) would need to be download is when the world cache changed due to a game update.
    Want to know more? Visit the Istaria Wiki!

  5. #45

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by StalePopcorn View Post
    If I have read the previous posts (and understood!) correctly, having a static world cache that the client has pre-downloaded would mean much quicker times moving between different areas. In particular, this would benefit portal travel. A large part of the delay is for the server to send the client the world information for the new area being visited.

    In theory, the only time the world cache (or parts thereof) would need to be download is when the world cache changed due to a game update.
    Except, of course, Player Plot/World Project Buildable information, as those change without updates to the game.

    But yes, that's the theory and it is a sound one. There'd be very little information at all to transfer once you already visited an area and downloaded a copy of the terrain info. This'd mean a lot less bandwidth used up, and a lot faster travel time for the players, also, logging on should be a lot faster too, if it didn't have to download the entire terrain data every single time you log on.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Ok that's interesting. Thanks for the replies.

    I'm wondering then if, in the meantime, a download version of a complete world cache could be possible? You'd then unzip/install it to your Istaria directory. I dare to think how big the download would be, but in the past did I hear a figure in the region of 16gb?

    Rakku


  7. #47

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    At this point, I don't think the effort to make a downloadable world cache is worth the payoff. (the fragility of the def file containing the sector versions will kill your cache the first time you crash)

    If someone wants to experiment with building one, sure, but please don't expect me to host it -- the file(s) will be over 1GB, around 3 with LOD tiles.

    Regarding the hack-ability of the client with static vs cached terrain, that's rather moot. You can not enforce client integrity if you don't have complete control over the underlying OS and the hardware it runs on. We certainly don't have that sort of control (nor is such control over players' machines desirable). Never trust the client, even if you built it.

    Note: In no way shall this post be construed as supporting, authorizing, or otherwise condoning actions that violate the terms of service.
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    This seems to be a thread with an appropriate audience to address this question:

    Is there a method to direct the player's world cache (and to read therefrom) to/from a drive on player's machine different from the drive holding the balance of the Istaria files?

    If not, can our devs make such an arrangement possible as a player option?

    Knossos

  9. #49

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelclaw View Post
    At this point, I don't think the effort to make a downloadable world cache is worth the payoff. (the fragility of the def file containing the sector versions will kill your cache the first time you crash)

    If someone wants to experiment with building one, sure, but please don't expect me to host it -- the file(s) will be over 1GB, around 3 with LOD tiles.
    Wouldn't even know where to begin. xD Could you not instruct the client to simply load terrain files from a location other then the world cache? Why would a crash kill your cache?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knossos View Post
    This seems to be a thread with an appropriate audience to address this question:

    Is there a method to direct the player's world cache (and to read therefrom) to/from a drive on player's machine different from the drive holding the balance of the Istaria files?

    If not, can our devs make such an arrangement possible as a player option?

    Knossos
    I would guess that it would entirely depend on if the client is programmed to work strictly within the working directory (Basically viewing \Istaria as its root directory) and if the directory path would be something you could easily change internally.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  10. #50

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Knossos View Post
    Is there a method to direct the player's world cache (and to read therefrom) to/from a drive on player's machine different from the drive holding the balance of the Istaria files?
    The world cache directory is hardcoded in the client. You can (probably... I haven't tested this) however, redirect the directory to somewhere else using a junction or symbolic link.

    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...8WS.10%29.aspx

    Move the world cache somewhere else, then create a symbolic link pointing to wherever you moved your world cache to.

    Symlinks and junctions are only supported on NTFS-formatted drives. If you're using FAT32, you're out of luck.
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelclaw View Post
    The world cache directory is hardcoded in the client. You can (probably... I haven't tested this) however, redirect the directory to somewhere else using a junction or symbolic link.

    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...8WS.10%29.aspx

    Move the world cache somewhere else, then create a symbolic link pointing to wherever you moved your world cache to.

    Symlinks and junctions are only supported on NTFS-formatted drives. If you're using FAT32, you're out of luck.
    Could always program in a way to override the world cache directory, and an option somewhere to enable the override. But I'm not sure it would be worth the effort. xD
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  12. #52

    Default Re: Static Download of the World

    Quote Originally Posted by Steelclaw View Post
    Symlinks and junctions are only supported on NTFS-formatted drives. If you're using FAT32, you're out of luck.
    You can however convert an existing FAT32 drive to NTFS.
    http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l.../bb456984.aspx

    NOTE: This is not recommended for the following cases:
    * USB drives
    * Drives to use on an OS prior to Windows XP
    * Flash drives, except for SSDs.

    Also note that *NIX and Linux based OSs mainly have read only support for NTFS.

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