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Thread: Are different builds even feasible?

  1. #1

    Default Are different builds even feasible?

    So, I can see a few instances where having a high primal is wanted: Relkar and Elial, but those fights are few and far between. There is also not many primal-oriented dragons on my server, so I thought I'd make one.

    I have a ton of dragons. Mostly so I can play with TP and find new ways to play.

    Trying to build a dex dragon, a caster, and a hybrid

    Trouble is, only two builds really work for dragon: Tank and DPS, both using various amounts of Health, TNC and STR, the scales carrying armor and various shades of the standard 3 stats.

    My caster not only has four stats to juggle with instead of three, but now she needs to be standing still for 5 or 6 seconds to get a damage spell off.

    My melee not only does insane damage but they can kite- something my spellcaster can't.

    Leveling, I had to change my tactic to fighting many mobs below my level, sometimes even a tier below me. I thought I was dishing out decent damage with a character that mirrors my DPS dragon's TP stats:
    1/4 bar of health
    1/2 Power
    full primal
    Bits in str, tnc, etc.

    Scales are armor, Power and focus scales.

    This is all fine and dandy until one does the ability quests and can't fight creatures above or at its own level. Is this right? Surely a creature that is maxed out in power and primal should do just as well as the dragon maxed out in str and tnc? Obviously not. Seems even the game mechanics work against being a spell caster.

    I was also hoping this would mean our epic spells, DW and Volcano would do more damage than when on my TNC dragons who are better off just using auto attack than using this spell.

    I was quite disappointed to find it does only slightly more damage: ~600 to fire opal golems vs. ~470.

    The hybrid also has the same problem. To cast spells, you must stand still and take damage for 4-6 seconds before your spell goes off, but I can't for the life of me find a combination that makes my spellcaster or hybrid perform as my DPS and tank does and be something that would be wanted in a group.

    While leveling, I found my caster invaluable as those the same level often did not have the heals I did. So maybe the answer lies in there. Now that she's level 100 though, healing seems to not be feasible at all:

    My caster's Primal health V heals for ~370
    My DPS build heals for ~330

    What? So, a dragon who has 300 more power, 247 more focus and 700 more points in primal is only offset by 40 HP?! Why waste the TP if the difference is that low?

    Using prime bolt, my dps build does 112-160 per hit
    My primalist does 183-238. That I suppose could be seen as feasible, but in the time it takes to kill a creature in between casting times, it seems my primalist needs to have a better defense than my tank who can one hit KO a mob instead of taking minutes. So are we doomed to just have the cookie cutter build? The only one that works or has someone else found a better strategy than I?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    I thought it was old knowledge that while being a pure Primalist makes you 500% more awesome, it's utterly terrible from a min-max standpoint. All the self-described caster dragons I know have to play like a hybrid to accomplish anything. Even I discovered very early on that as much as I love the idea of Thickle chucking nukes from the back, I had better be rolling my face across all those tooth and claw abilities every time they're up if I want to finish the fight the same day.

    Well, until I want to go AoE something. Then I'm awesome.

    For the record, your TP are quite different from mine. Can't get at them right now, but I believe I'm about 1/5 Power, 1/5 Focus, 1/4-1/2 Primal, maybe 40 TP into HP and some chump change in TnC. Owing to Thickle's upbringing with higher-tier scales than its combat abilities warranted and usually sporting what we call "too @#$% much" hoard, defenses were never its downfall, so I was usually stacking as much oomph as possible. Even now I'm using Power scales with either Primal-Focus-Armor, The Tech Kits, and/or sockets.

    Admittedly, I am a terrible adventurer. Golems are about as difficult as I'm interested in. So I'm pretty satisfied with being an invincible little bucket of slow-n-steady Prime.


    So yeah, short version: Primalists can be good. Unfortunately, if you're trying to squeeze every last drop of combat perfection out of your dragon, you either need to start submitting pleas to the Gods for aid or look for another configuration.

    [EDIT] Though if someone's playing this game to massage their numbers until they purr... yeah, no, why are you here again?
    Last edited by Thicklesip; November 1st, 2010 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Personal amusement

  3. #3

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    I was just hoping I could use different builds for variety and to create a different game to our jack-of-all-trades dragons: being a healer, trying out a nuke, AOE damage specialty, maybe even one that dodges more often for a different tank build.
    We have all these stats to play with and put TP in, yet only three seem to make a noticeable difference.

    Seems all I made was HARDMODE and I should just build all 22 of my dragons the same way in order to get my training done. Boring but feasible.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #4

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    I'm one of the exclusive Primalist Dragons.

    Here are my settings (old message but still accurate): http://community.istaria.com/forum/s...2&postcount=11

    It's like if you were playing a mage: high damaging spells, but low armor. If you want to do heavy damage with spells, I don't think there is another way. You can't cheat as you do with melee: wait with a high armor until you can deliver the deadly Gold Rage.
    However, compared to a real mage, you will still have a very good armor with hoard bonus.

    You can fight mobs of high level, but you have to choose wisely the field where you fight. Be mobile, so you need enough safe space behind you. Deal damages, run, use the little break to heal and deal damages again. You will have to do this if you solo.

    But anyway, know your limits: you can't achieve everything a meleer could do this way. It's more a group setup than a solo setup, even if it works if you can master your stuff.
    Firebrandcrest Arma: Ancient Helian Dragon | Dragon 100 / Dragon Crafter 100 / Dragon Lairshaper 100 / Dragon Crystalshaper 100 (Order) | My MODs: Zexoin's and Firebrand's Sound Emotes Pack v2.5.1.3, Alternate Dragon Bolt Casting v1.4, Old Istarian Ambiance v1.0.5.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thicklesip View Post

    ... yeah, no, why are you here again?
    Because I find you both wise and amusing!

    I like Primal Damage and Critical Damage techs. Favorites of mine.
    Dragon Scroll; BLIGHT~Anam, Ahleah; CHAOS~Veruliyam, Ceruliyan, Jaguarundi, Spinel, Ssussurrouss, Chon; ORDER~Aucapoma, Susurrus

  6. #6

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Veruliyam View Post
    Because I find you both wise and amusing!

    I like Primal Damage and Critical Damage techs. Favorites of mine.

    Ack! Did I not teach you better? Crit damage is the worse possible tech to put on your bolt. Gale will out perform it. *makes notes to correct teaching, terrible omission*

    As to my build, I too am one of those rare Primal dragons and have been all along. Wasn't until I reached top levels that I even had gold rage on my hot bar. Darn mylocs will force you to fight hybrid.

    My training points are max Primal, about a quarter split between evasion and magic evasion and the other quarter in power. While leveling it was without the power stat and more in evasion. I have three combat scales with tooth and claw and use all the new dragon techs from the doom. That gets my melee specials in the acceptable range on hits/misses. My scales are a mix of armor, power, and focus base with a mix of primal, focus, breath, socket, tooth and claw techs. I adore my spell activated dot weapon crystals, paying attention to have the right damage type to best hit what I am hunting. Nothing is more delightful then hitting something with a range tech'ed grazing winds and get a dot hit so the thing is taking damage before it is even in bolt range.

    Being full primal I have difficulty trying to play full tooth and claw on an alt. Seems too darn slow swiping with a claw to me for what is pitiful damage compared to my bolts. Though my chaos alt is split 50/50 on primal and tooth & claw and is very versatile. A swap of scales and I can change fighting style with a click of the hot key. Still trying to get myself to play a traditional full tooth & claw dragon. Keep wanting to go back to my bolts. ( I do have bolts for all occasions, one with every possible tech. As which tech to use on what mob will vary for best result.)



    Dracaena

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Investigated and noted!

    But, what about Romp? Pierce? Hmmm...?!?!?
    Dragon Scroll; BLIGHT~Anam, Ahleah; CHAOS~Veruliyam, Ceruliyan, Jaguarundi, Spinel, Ssussurrouss, Chon; ORDER~Aucapoma, Susurrus

  8. #8

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Romp/Pierce/Gale are swapped around depending on enemies. If you're only making one set of spells, pick one (ideally the best one against whatever you fight most) and run with it. If you have the inclination though, making a version of each spell with one of those gives you more versatility while hunting. Even Thickle-the-benign can find uses for different spells:

    Pierce is best against ore/stone golems.
    Romp works well on beetles.
    Gale is better against gem golems.

    (Handy tip: whatever type of damage an enemy deals is the worst type to try to deal back!)


    Of course, most important is Primal Damage, but once you have that...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    been away for a while......what spell are you referring to? Volcano?
    Cauri BloodBane - Order
    100 DADV / 100 D C R A

  10. #10

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    My dragon is an AoE Hybrid. Ive got maxed TC and Primal. All my spells are teched and i Aoe as much as possible. Course if i dont kill them within mmm 30sec i have to kite them and kill them off that way but to me it works. Dish out aoe spells, a flame burst then a Gold rage and repeat.
    ^.^ *Speed Demon of order..*[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #11

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    and consider this a "dumb" question from an old player who has forgotten more than I remember..

    How are your DPS and Tank dragons pointed? I'm really curious as this is the type of fighter Frith is (take lots of damage and then DPS 2ndary priority)) and wanting to know if I'm still in the right direction...heh.
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Tank has half the TNC and it's dumped into health. DPS has full TNC. Both have half a bar of Strength.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  13. #13

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Well, I don’t know if others would consider my main hatchling’s build viable or not, but I can say that I had little trouble killing things at or above my level even though I used more spells than T&C on my way to level 100. My primary focus was survival rather than DPS so getting more armour and evasion was always a higher priority than getting more power or primal. Also once I built a battle-forged claw and got Primal Attack V, I was able to pretty much one-shot Gold Rage most T5 and some T6 mobs on Elnath and ED even without a single point invested in strength or T&C (so I see little point in investing in them now).

    Current TP:
    ~90% Evasion
    ~80% Dexterity
    ~30% Primal
    (Yes, I was trying to intentionally gimp myself)

    Scales are a full T5 set of armour with T4 primal, power, focus techs (I haven’t really seen the need to upgrade them yet, focused on crafting sets instead). Anything that can be socketed, is fully socketed with more armour and one appropriate resistance crystals. The 3rd crystal slots raise a mix of primal, power, focus, or health.

    I’ve had this setup for over a year now, and of the 100 or so trips to various hunting places (mostly Elnath, ED, Doom, and around Delgarath), I’ve collected no more than a dozen DP in total. So while my DPS may be horrible (not much of a concern now when you can practically one-shot most mobs whenever you want still), at least I never spent a second sitting in a tavern or waste too much time getting back to a hunting ground (my apology for not getting a chance in supporting all of you confectioners out there ). I suppose I lose a lot of efficiency while fighting bosses; Zhaguxal for the first time took 10 minutes to take down solo, but I’m just glad I survived personally (let’s just say that I was very fortunate that my spells were teched with romp there).

    Anyway, there are a few things casters excel at, mostly taking out large amount of weaker mobs in a very short time. For example, before the giant flame/fire beetles had there spawn rate reduced to something near extinction, I used to run around and agro 25 or so of them (including the named ones) and AoE + Spike Scale them to death. In less than 30 minutes I had 20 of each mandibles for scale sets. Same goes with all the other easy golem-like mobs; I simply… can’t… imagine clawing my way through those one at a time anymore.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dracaena View Post

    As to my build, I too am one of those rare Primal dragons and have been all along. Wasn't until I reached top levels that I even had gold rage on my hot bar. Darn mylocs will force you to fight hybrid.

    Is T&C much more reliable than accuracy teched spells against mylocs? It’s one of the only mobs that I don’t even try to melee unless I can sneak up on one and gold rage it before they target my hatchling and get their dodge bonus in. I typically just try to pull 2 veterans and let them flurry themselves to death on some spiked scales.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    I would adore a caster equivalent of Gold Rage working on the same timer-- being able to pick one or the other seems like it would keep things fairly balanced. (Or, at least, would make it possible for it to stay balanced.)

    More HP though...? I can't really get behind that. I mean, having 7k would be nice, but from a game balance perspective: no. I do not want to be forced into being the tank just because I picked the right race. (I wouldn't turn down a smaller upgrade, although this tendency to link shiny Dragon things besides flying to being the right age annoys me. Why do I HAVE to grow up to get <class mechanic #238>? What do you have against level 100 hatchies?)


    Now that I can look at Thickle's TP:
    453 Primal (37.75%)
    292 Power (24.3%)
    292 Focus (24.3%)
    90 TnC (7.5%)
    73 HP (6.1%)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solan View Post

    Current TP:
    ~90% Evasion
    ~80% Dexterity
    ~30% Primal
    (Yes, I was trying to intentionally gimp myself)


    <<>>


    Is T&C much more reliable than accuracy teched spells against mylocs? It’s one of the only mobs that I don’t even try to melee unless I can sneak up on one and gold rage it before they target my hatchling and get their dodge bonus in. I typically just try to pull 2 veterans and let them flurry themselves to death on some spiked scales.
    Difference is you are much higher in evasion then I am. I have zero points or scales in dex and fewer evasion points. I also tend to chain pull so spiked scales isn't always available. I have seen too many times for comfort a myloc at 60hp get a string of dodges on my spells while landing some real good hits on me. Gets down to the next one who lands a blow wins. Though to be honest, I think the spells are a tad more likely to land then melee. (though again that might be more my lack of tooth and claw)



    Dracaena

  16. #16

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thicklesip View Post
    I would adore a caster equivalent of Gold Rage working on the same timer-- being able to pick one or the other seems like it would keep things fairly balanced. (Or, at least, would make it possible for it to stay balanced.)

    More HP though...? I can't really get behind that. I mean, having 7k would be nice, but from a game balance perspective: no. I do not want to be forced into being the tank just because I picked the right race. (I wouldn't turn down a smaller upgrade, although this tendency to link shiny Dragon things besides flying to being the right age annoys me. Why do I HAVE to grow up to get <class mechanic #238>? What do you have against level 100 hatchies?)


    Now that I can look at Thickle's TP:
    453 Primal (37.75%)
    292 Power (24.3%)
    292 Focus (24.3%)
    90 TnC (7.5%)
    73 HP (6.1%)
    You should have quoted my post, because it got lost. You might be able to find it in your temp internet files and report it for me. It's gone on mine.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    hehe Guaran- you made some blasphemic suggestions in your post- that is why its gone

    Well mine is gone too- will look for it later
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  18. #18

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    yes my post is gone too due to the oopsie rollback..

    The basic jist was - thanks for specifics Shian, and thanks to everyone for the discussion of how your points effect your play! I find this stuff most helpful!
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Are different builds even feasible?

    Yes, thank you all for the help! Hopefully with the insight I gained from this thread, I can build a better caster.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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