WoW, This Game is Terrible

[Armameteus]

*Inspired by a comment in the Divinity 2: Ego Draconis - Great "Dragon" Game thread*

You know what, I find it a slap in the face that our supposedly awesome community is reduced to such lovely insults of another game when that game is is fine. You don't even bother to wait or go out and get facts before slamming and griping and insulting something you don't even know about.

So let's just get the facts straight, so you guys can get your tails out of your ears and eyes..*rolls eyes*

And yea, I pay and play both - other Istarians do too - so can we at least respect our fellow gamers and keep the general chat in OTHER games in OTHER games (cuz every OTHER game likes to insult games in their general chat, too bad on me I thought Istarian players could refrain...).

1 - The Dragon mount POTION/Spell is only available to high end Alchemists, as *probably* a rare "drop" so to speak, from crafting. You craft items and you get a chance that the knowledge for this alchemical recipie will "pop" for you to learn.

2 - If you aren't an alchemist - too bad for you . If you are, odds are you may never see this ability for yourself, or get it yourself.

3 - If you do get the "drop", it still is going to cost at least 24 THOUSAND Gold to make this reciepe for yourself. Now, gold certainly isn't as rare in WoW as it is in Istaria but I'd say this is probably the equivalent of couple hundred gold in Istaria. Players can grind their butts and sell stuff and get this much gold, certainly acheiveable - but there are plenty players who never see this much gold int heir banks. So if you don't have the cash to make the recipie - time to grind or play the auction house!

4 - It works the same as a "Mount" in WoW - which means you can't be a dragon inside, you can't be a dragon and fight, you can't be a dragon and sit in an Inn. You TURN INTO A MOUNT and a friend can ride you while you fly around. You'll have no emotes while transformed I'm sure (so you can't dance or wave or whateve), hell you won't even be able to jump - cuz you'll fly (just like adults do now lol).

The day this was announced, my main who has been a leatherworker for 6 years since launch is NOW an Alchemist. I"M GOING TO HAVE THIS ABILITY BY GOLLY!! I will farm and farm adn farm and farm and even if it takes me years before I discover the recipie, I WILL be a dragon!!

And I think this dragon is pretty dang cool looking - its a "gem" dragon so to speak - so its very rock looking and has gems and such poking out. You can see video of it over on mmo-champion.com or I'm sure on the WoW Wikki. Just type in "alchemy dragon" and I'm sure you'll find it.

Frankly I think its prtty **** cool, and I'm psyched to be able to fly my hubby around..and dismount..and drop him to his death.

And yes, I have the 24K already put aside..

So let's quit with the hate - noone copied anyone - you still can't really "play" a dragon (for any RP left in WoW...its rare anyway so hey...).

Jeez...calm the pitchforks...seriously lame...

My reasons for hating WoW are actually centered mostly around their desire to suck their players dry for money. And a few features that also really erk me as a player, but those ones are more of my opinion on what styles of games I prefer.

Anyway, my largest gripe is that they are money vampires. First off, you have to buy the game. Okay, last I checked, that's at least 20-something dollars, maybe more. Next, if you want the full game experience, you have to get the expansions... all three of them. So... say about 30$ a piece for the old ones, again, last I checked. Obviously at least 60$ for the new one coming out.

Then there's the monthly subscriptions. I don't know how much that is, but the fact that you can't even play the game you just bought without also paying a sub seems sort of... hm, what's the word...? Oh, right extortionate.

Then there's the world system. Granted, Istaria has that, but only three-fold, and each that cadre to a different style of player, from role-players, to beta-testers, to the common gamer; those being the Order, Blight, and Chaos shards respectively.

WoW on the other hand is a game which has little in terms of "dedicated" worlds and more along the lines of simple mass quantity to be able to accommodate for their huge player base. Problem is, in creating a character, they in turn become locked to the world in which they were created. So, if my friend happens to be on another world and I want to play with him/her with one of my characters that's on a different world, 1) I'll have to ask Blizzard to transfer it over, 2) pay them a gross (and by "gross", I mean "disgusting") sum of money to do so, and 3) wait for who-knows-how-long for them to do it. Days, weeks, months? Who knows. They seem to tend to do things at a pace that suits them, rather than the player. I guess I can't really blame them though, if they're busy. They've got a lot of players to deal with. But that's not the point. The first two are the big problems.

Next, we have the players themselves. And, my god, if you haven't been on a WoW server, you haven't seen nasty. The people in this game can be freaking vicious--no, rabid--NO, psychotic. Yeah, that. Absolutely, crack-pot, bat-crap insane. Hostility? Through the roof. l33t-freaks? Like you wouldn't believe. Murderers? ...In some cases. Did you know? People are sometimes outright murdered in real life by players who are so disturbingly into that game, they think that anyone who crosses them over it needs to die. For real. I mean... how screwed up do you have to be to do something like that? It may be uncommon, but I'm certainly not going to chance coming across one of those nut jobs if it means I'll get MURDERED, thanks.

Aside from that, there are so few generally nice players in there, it's like trying to find a needle... in a pile of needles... inside a warehouse filled with numerous piles of needles. As one particular Istarian said here on the forums somewhere, asking for help/making a comment/trying to be nice, etc in that kind of game is just like asking to be derided, branded a "noob", generally despised by the 'vets', have your name smeared into gruok dung for eternity... I can go on. It's just sad how little there is in terms of community in that game. Everyone hates everyone else, unless your one of the haters, in which case, you're looked at as "cool" because you frequently degrade other newbies. To hate is to be loved by those that hate. *sigh* Sad.

Next is more a personal gripe of mine, but I may as well inform those that haven't played the game before. It's two-fold: the leveling system and the abilities/trades system.

First off, levels. Every expansion sees another ten added to the level cap, which would make this newest one I think 90? Hm... not really sure about that. Haven't been bothered to keep track. Regardless, the game play is essentially this: if you haven't maxed out your level yet, you're still a noob and you can't actually do very much in the game at all because you're too weak/inexperienced. Monsters still kill you, quests remain incomplete and items are too high on the tier system to be used/equipped. Until you've hit the maximum, you're not 'really' playing the game because you're so limited as to what you can do.

On top of that, the game play is very much group-oriented. Kind of ironic, considering how generally evil some of those players can be, having to team up with so many at one time. Anyway, much of what you can do is very limited to massive group efforts. Even when you're maxed out, you'll likely be finding it impossible to complete even one-tenth of the overall game play (trades not included; more on that later) without grouping up with a bunch of other people in the faint hope that you'll be able to successfully defeat that one particular boss or finish that certain quest, etc. Forced group game play is a massive no-no in my books. It should be totally optional and you should be able to solo 100% of the game without any help what-so-ever if you desire. It may be hard work-yes, but it should still be open to those that are willing to go through that. And, in a horrid community like WoW's, I would definitely be willing.

Finally, in terms of the level system, there's the fact that leveling is truly a joke. You hit that maximum so fast, with so little effort that (coupled with the above grievances), it may as well not even be a part of the game at all. "You've hit maximum? Whoop-dee-freakin-doo." is about all you get from the 'vets' because, well, it's just too easy. They practically hand them to you on a silver platter. There's so little work involved, you feel as though you've accomplished nothing. That's why games like Istaria are all but dead nowadays; players are so used to "modern" gaming that dumbs everything down, gives the players essentially zero challenge starting out and makes them go through no effort to gain levels/skills/equips, etc, that games that actually make you feel like you've achieved something when you gain that level, learn that skill or find that equip (Ie, make you work for it) are shunned and despised.

Personally, I like that feeling of self-satisfaction when I've finally gotten what I was hoping to achieve. If it's wrong to enjoy that sensation of finally seeing your hard effort rewarded after you've shed blood, sweat and tears for it, then sue me. I can't stand games that give you everything. It defeats the purpose of even having systems like those in place.

And now, for the trade system. Every expansion, they add a bucket-load of new trades to learn, but only enough skill points per level to learn a tiny fraction of what can be learned in those new trades, not to mention all the other ones that preceded them. There are so many things to learn and yet you'll never be able to learn them all with one character. Never. You know why? Because obviously your player has a limited memory bank in that brain of theirs and can only learn so much before their brain seizes up and can't learn any more. Not unlike real life. Wait, no, that's no like real life at all. In fact, it's the opposite... hmm...

I don't mind having to make choices toward your character's development that affect game play--it can be fun even, if done correctly--but essentially preventing your character from learning any more than one one-hundredth of all the available trades is so... restricting. What? Do they fear that their players won't be responsible enough to handle such power as to know everything there is to know? To be able to do everything there is to do, trade-wise? Oh, look; more forced game play elements, this time in the form of "forced multiple characters". Yep, the only way you'll ever be able to experience 100% of the game is by making truckloads of new characters that you can grind up to make into specialized tradesman. Never will you be able to make that one "über-character" that can do everything.

Why is it so wrong to want to become "godly"? I mean, it's not unfair if everyone can eventually do it. It just takes time. I used to frequently play a game with a leveling/skill system that was only restricted by the maximum. Essentially, with enough hard work and effort, you could ascend into the realm of godliness that was the true epitome of the "über". You knew everything. You did everything. You could fight any fight, kill any monster, craft any tool and explore any area of the game you desired. The world truly was at your fingertips.

Why is that in WoW, this kind of goal is but a flitting ember of a dream that smolders out more and more with every expansion? Half the fun of a game is in reaching that point of I-can-do-anything-ness. Once you get there, you feel so accomplished. You've truly "finished" the game, at least concerning your character's development. And once that new expansion comes out, that goal roars into life once again and your hopes set ever higher. Just enough time to max-out, have a bloody good time doing whatever you wanted simply because you could do whatever you wanted and then it was back to the grind, making your way up those new skill ladders until you've maxed out once again, to start the fun all over with a new set of abilities. Now that's a game I can get behind and, if you ask me, is what every level-grinder should be.

And now, finally, the biggest gripe of all in terms of game play and restricted almost solely to WoW itself: The Hoard/Alliance system. A system designed to force the player to create characters of both factions. A system designed to make playing with another player of the opposite faction near-to impossible. A system designed to set Hoard players and Alliance players apart and despise each other for it. There are so many faults with the idea, it makes playing the game nearly impossible. I hate--loathe even--the thought that I can't play with a friend who happens to prefer Hoard characters and I prefer Alliance because we're supposed to be "mortal enemies", blah blah blah. There are so many restrictions, being able to simply speak to one another not being the most ridiculous of the lot, that ruin the game as well as the community. If you're supposed to hate any player who is of the opposite faction, it's no wonder the community is in the toilet. Hostility is encouraged! Ugh! That in itself is enough to make me want to get as far away from the game as possible. I wouldn't touch that butchered hack-job they have the nerve to call a "game" with a 39-and-a-half-foot pole.

Blizzard, seriously, just do the stuff you're good at. Like Starcraft. And the real Warcraft. And maybe even Lost Vikings--that game was so much fun; the definition of a platformer if I ever saw one. You're so good at those! Just do that! Leave MMOs to the people that know what their doing! To the people that actually listen to their player base more so than a bunch of rageaholics that take their aggression out on other people in a virtual society! Please!

So, as you can see, it's not just the new dragon feature that they're putting in that grinds me. If anything, it's a plus, because it seems to show that they're finally listening to the suggestions of players wanting something so cool. I mean, who hasn't played a game and thought, instead of fighting this dragon, I'd like to be the dragon. I mean, they're almost always depicted as enemies, which are also ridiculously strong. The thought of being something that massive and powerful is so enthralling, so tempting. How can it be ignored? Becoming the definition of mythology, the image everyone thinks about when the word "fantasy" is uttered, the creature that defines power and ferociousness--it's something any fantasy buff worth their scales has ever wanted. And they finally did it.

Istaria just did it first.

[Akrion]

Pretty much everything you said can equate to any other MMO in existance if it got as popular as WoW, even Istaria. In the past Istaria made you buy their game before you could sub and play it, it was a full price game at release. So you can't make this comparison at all because the state Istaria is in now vs the state WoW is in now are completely different.

You say that Blizzard should stick to what they're good at? You mean like making one of the most successful MMOs to date? I honestly can't see how WoW could become the juggernaut that it is if Blizzard sucked at what they were doing with it.

To me you just seem to be coming up with as many reasons as possible to hate WoW despite that many of those reasons can either already be applied to other MMOS, or could be applied to other MMOs if they were equally popular.

[Raptress]

Then there's the monthly subscriptions. I don't know how much that is, but the fact that you can't even play the game you just bought without also paying a sub seems sort of... hm, what's the word...? Oh, right extortionate.

This is something almost every mainstream MMO has been guilty of, even Istaria. Charging for the game + expansions and then a subscription fee is how MMOs usually run. WoW was not the first, WoW will not be the last.

Then there's the world system. Granted, Istaria has that, but only three-fold, and each that cadre to a different style of player, from role-players, to beta-testers, to the common gamer; those being the Order, Blight, and Chaos shards respectively.

Istaria used to have more servers. The reason there are only three now is because the population crashed and the devs running Istaria at the time could not afford to keep running all those servers. They merged them together. The reason WoW has so many is simply because it has so many players. I cannot hold that against them.

1) I'll have to ask Blizzard to transfer it over, 2) pay them a gross (and by "gross", I mean "disgusting") sum of money to do so, and 3) wait for who-knows-how-long for them to do it. Days, weeks, months? Who knows.

Istaria charges the same amount as Blizzard for a server transfer. I have used Blizzard's service and it was completed very expediently. It certainly didn't take months, not even weeks.

Did you know? People are sometimes outright murdered in real life by players who are so disturbingly into that game, they think that anyone who crosses them over it needs to die. For real.

Again, not just a problem with WoW. I have heard similar stories occurring with other games. I believe Call of Duty was one of them. WoW might have more occurrences of tragedy, but.. WoW has the largest playerbase of any MMO. They hold more than half the market. Sheer numbers dictate that they are more likely to suffer these things.

It should be totally optional and you should be able to solo 100% of the game without any help what-so-ever if you desire.

The MMOs that allow this are not common. Grouping is a normal MMO thing, not an invention of WoW. The entire point of an MMO is to have players interacting with other players. If you want to solo absolutely everything, that is why single-player games exist.

There are so many restrictions, being able to simply speak to one another not being the most ridiculous of the lot, that ruin the game as well as the community. If you're supposed to hate any player who is of the opposite faction, it's no wonder the community is in the toilet. Hostility is encouraged! Ugh!

Well, what do you expect? There's PvP in the game. Wherever PvP exists, there have to be sides. Wherever there are sides, there is rivalry, there is trash-talk.

The reason the two sides can't speak in fact is because, when they could, they used it to trash-talk.

I simply cannot blame human nature on WoW. Nor can I blame things on WoW to begin with, because, again, other MMOs did it first.

Blizzard, seriously, just do the stuff you're good at.

I would say that they're pretty good at MMOs, considering WoW is probably the most successful one of all time.

Becoming the definition of mythology, the image everyone thinks about when the word "fantasy" is uttered, the creature that defines power and ferociousness--it's something any fantasy buff worth their scales has ever wanted. And they finally did it.

Istaria just did it first.

Kinda. Istaria made something that looked like a dragon, sure. But bipeds can be on par or even far more powerful. The Istarian dragon is hardly the dragon that many think of: a terrifying beast of great power, stronger than any man could ever hope to be.

Considering how much vitriol you seem to harbor over WoW, it is unlikely that anything anyone says will sway you. But I did feel the need to point out where I thought there was blame being laid inappropriately.

[Shian]

Every other MMO game in existence does this truthfully.

14 servers, multiple factions (of which you are aggroed to all but your own)

and every expansion that comes out is $50.

As for the quality of the community, quality only lasts so long as the community is such a small tight-knight group where everyone knows each other by name, what alts they play, the character's quirks etc.

The minute the MMO gets bigger than this is when you lose that quality of players because for some reason being anonymous and unknown gives them an excuse to be a jerk.

I think the only one I didn't see this happening was Saga of Ryzom, but I'm not sure what thier population was like.

[Armameteus]

Pretty much everything you said can equate to any other MMO in existance if it got as popular as WoW, even Istaria. In the past Istaria made you buy their game before you could sub and play it, it was a full price game at release. So you can't make this comparison at all because the state Istaria is in now vs the state WoW is in now are completely different.

You say that Blizzard should stick to what they're good at? You mean like making one of the most successful MMOs to date? I honestly can't see how WoW could become the juggernaut that it is if Blizzard sucked at what they were doing with it.

To me you just seem to be coming up with as many reasons as possible to hate WoW despite that many of those reasons can either already be applied to other MMOS, or could be applied to other MMOs if they were equally popular.

That's just it though. I would be comparing this game as it is now to what WoW is now. That's the whole point. You can easily say "it was like this before too, you know" but that doesn't mean that the changes that have been made can't be taken into account. A game is altered or refined to become better than what it once was. Istaria, it seems, has done this, even if not completely intentional or for the "right" reasons, but it still has. And, for me, it's those alterations that have made Istaria vastly better in comparison to what WoW is today.

As for what they're good at, I was referring to good games. Just because they have a massive player base doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good game. Quality over quantity is more important, in my opinion. You can have the biggest pile of crap in the world, but it's still a pile of crap. That kind of thing isn't something to be proud of. And that's what I feel WoW is.

And, though this rant is about WoW, it doen't mean I'm not aware of other MMOs that imply the same money-hungry, awful-game play strategies. There are many, many other games out there that I can't stand, all for thier own different or like reasons. WoW just happened to be the topic of the particular comment in the thread this came from. If it were about any other game similar to it that I've had experiences with, this rant would likely be about that.

Every other MMO game in existence does this truthfully.

14 servers, multiple factions (of which you are aggroed to all but your own)

and every expansion that comes out is $50.

As for the quality of the community, quality only lasts so long as the community is such a small tight-knight group where everyone knows each other by name, what alts they play, the character's quirks etc.

The minute the MMO gets bigger than this is when you lose that quality of players because for some reason being anonymous and unknown gives them an excuse to be a jerk.

I think the only one I didn't see this happening was Saga of Ryzom, but I'm not sure what thier population was like.

I can't agree more. Like I said to Akrion, if the original comment that had spawned this rant had been about another MMO that was similar, I'd likely be ranting about that one instead. Finding a good MMO for all the right reasons are one in a million, which is a really depressing thing to think about.

I'm not trying to put Istaria on some high pedestal; I'm just using it as a basis for my argument because, to be honest, I've never seen a game much like this one. A lot of the things that I can't stand are not in it and the community is great. Sure, it may be because it's small, but even still. I know what you mean though by the "anonymous = right to be a prick" in some people's minds, which I really do hate. Of course, it's probably just human nature. But that is a completely different rant. If we got into the intricacies of my opinions of humanity, I can tell you right now that I would be abolished from this site in a second. You guys would hate me. HATE me.

This is something almost every mainstream MMO has been guilty of, even Istaria. Charging for the game + expansions and then a subscription fee is how MMOs usually run. WoW was not the first, WoW will not be the last.

Istaria used to have more servers. The reason there are only three now is because the population crashed and the devs running Istaria at the time could not afford to keep running all those servers. They merged them together. The reason WoW has so many is simply because it has so many players. I cannot hold that against them.

Istaria charges the same amount as Blizzard for a server transfer. I have used Blizzard's service and it was completed very expediently. It certainly didn't take months, not even weeks.

Again, not just a problem with WoW. I have heard similar stories occurring with other games. I believe Call of Duty was one of them. WoW might have more occurrences of tragedy, but.. WoW has the largest playerbase of any MMO. They hold more than half the market. Sheer numbers dictate that they are more likely to suffer these things.

The MMOs that allow this are not common. Grouping is a normal MMO thing, not an invention of WoW. The entire point of an MMO is to have players interacting with other players. If you want to solo absolutely everything, that is why single-player games exist.

Well, what do you expect? There's PvP in the game. Wherever PvP exists, there have to be sides. Wherever there are sides, there is rivalry, there is trash-talk.

The reason the two sides can't speak in fact is because, when they could, they used it to trash-talk.

I simply cannot blame human nature on WoW. Nor can I blame things on WoW to begin with, because, again, other MMOs did it first.

I would say that they're pretty good at MMOs, considering WoW is probably the most successful one of all time.

Kinda. Istaria made something that looked like a dragon, sure. But bipeds can be on par or even far more powerful. The Istarian dragon is hardly the dragon that many think of: a terrifying beast of great power, stronger than any man could ever hope to be.

Considering how much vitriol you seem to harbor over WoW, it is unlikely that anything anyone says will sway you. But I did feel the need to point out where I thought there was blame being laid inappropriately.

Most of what you've said I've already given my statements about, so repeating myself would be pointless. Just read my responses to Shian and Akrion.

Most of what you said is true, yes. And, yes, I do hold a great deal of animosity toward WoW and Blizzard. Most of my argument is based on the viewpoint of someone who frequents MMO's, finds he doesn't like them for certain reasons and then leaves to try to find another he likes. This, so far, has been a comparison between WoW and Istaria because they both occupy opposite ends of the scale from my viewpoint.

Istaria as it is today, though small, is a really good game because it doesn't have a lot of the things that annoy me as I stated them. WoW on the other hand, is positively massive and very well known to the world, yet is filled with the very things I dislike in games. I could have easily used another MMO I don't like, but, again, this conversation just happened to be about WoW. Along with that though, I choose WoW as my comparative "annoyance-game" because it's so well known. That way, when I get into a debate like this, I don't have to explain anything because, chances are, I'm already speaking to someone who's played it or at least knows enough about it for my arguments to get through.

I mean, look at you guys (or girls). You're all explaining things about WoW as if you already know a fair deal about it. If I had been ranting about another game that had at one time/is still a game I dislike for similar or dissimilar reasons, but is rather obscure, I'd likely not have a very good debate with anyone because they wouldn't be well versed enough in it to provide an engaging rebuttal. Ranting, to me, is all about opinions and standpoints and what other people think about them (hence making a forum allowing rants). If I wanted a good rant to be able to vent, hear others opinions and debate on who's got the stronger argument and clearer viewpoints that other people could agree with, I'd go to a subject that a lot of people can already get behind. WoW for example.

[Frith-Rae]

I won't go into all the detail I was going to go into, cuz other people said it briefer than me. Its not possible for me to be brief...lol.

The only thing I'd add to something Raptress commented on - is the "required group system." Well since you don't know the top level I don't expect you to realize this now - but you can solo your way from 1 to 85 the new top level in the next expansion. Don't have a group a single time. Yes, when you get to end-game you can either solo-daily quest, solo pvp, group pvp, or group raid. But uhh, that's true for every game at end game except for Second Life (no end game) and Eve.

So, no actually, yhou never have to group to do much ofa nything. Except enter group content. But then, Istaria has a group dungeon too. I mean you can go solo in there but I bet you would probably die .

So, in the idea of being brief(er) than I was going to be I"ll get to my main point.

And, though this rant is about WoW, it doen't mean I'm not aware of other MMOs that imply the same money-hungry, awful-game play strategies. There are many, many other games out there that I can't stand, all for thier own different or like reasons. WoW just happened to be the topic of the particular comment in the thread this came from.

Well let me tell you bout this very small game, that came out a year before WoW. Now back when they both launched they both cost the same a month. But that really small game, actually went through several owners, and releases actual content updates probably once a year if that often. That WoW game well they release content quite reguarly in addition to expansions and improved game mechanics.

And yet both those games still cost the same in that monthly subscription.

Which gets to the main point I always make and then move on in these threads - 95% of the complaints about WoW are complaints you can also make about 95% of the other live MMO games (including most "f2p" ones as well). I would never say WoW is Perfect, but I say no other game is either.

You certianly have a right to hate a game just because..you don't like it.

I only ever "get irked" (you know, like when people make those first posts lol) when the person uses a whole buncha reasons that most other MMOs (they like) also do - but "WoW does it so I hate it." But wait..you play these other MMOS that do many of the same things.

Just not like something for not liking it. I dont like LOTR, AoC, Warhammer, CoH, CO, uhh..*tries to think of more MMOs most of which she didnt like just cuz she didn't like*.

I can't point to LOTR and give examples as to why what they did was really much different (a few differences yes) from WoW - but I know I Didn't like it and I can give things I found boring. Doesn't mean WoW doesn't have that boring either. So really, it just comes down to "meh couldn't get into it" .

Now - if this is more of a positive/negative discussiona dn not just a rant - well we can get into this whole compare/contrast live MMO mechanics discussion.

If this is meant to stay a rant - more power to ya - I just dont like knee jerk reactions. To be fair, if I'm in Istaria or EQII general chat and chat starts bashing any game, I crap on their fun too .

Amazingly enough, I have actually never witnessed a "other game bashing" discussion on my WoW server's trade chat...lol. Intersting .

[Dhalin]

WoW player here.

Anyway, my largest gripe is that they are money vampires. First off, you have to buy the game. Okay, last I checked, that's at least 20-something dollars, maybe more. Next, if you want the full game experience, you have to get the expansions... all three of them. So... say about 30$ a piece for the old ones, again, last I checked. Obviously at least 60$ for the new one coming out.

You haven't checked right, or recently. The original game is $19.99. The Burning Crusade's price was dropped to $19.99 I believe. That already is cheaper than most non-MMORPG games out there, $10 cheaper. Okay, there's Wrath. I bet it will be dropped in price once Cataclysm is released. Still isn't that bad.

Then there's the monthly subscriptions. I don't know how much that is, but the fact that you can't even play the game you just bought without also paying a sub seems sort of... hm, what's the word...? Oh, right extortionate.

They give you discounts for 6-month subs. It is actually cheaper than Istaria's paid subscription if you buy the 6-month sub.

Then there's the world system. Granted, Istaria has that, but only three-fold, and each that cadre to a different style of player, from role-players, to beta-testers, to the common gamer; those being the Order, Blight, and Chaos shards respectively.

WoW on the other hand is a game which has little in terms of "dedicated" worlds and more along the lines of simple mass quantity to be able to accommodate for their huge player base.

I don't see the problem here. WoW has five different server types:

Public Test Realm (Istaria's Blight server)
PvE (Istaria's Chaos)
PvP (The opposing side can attack you at any time if you're in enemy or contested territory)
RP (Istaria's Order)
RP-PvP (Same as PvP, only also RP)

Problem is, in creating a character, they in turn become locked to the world in which they were created. So, if my friend happens to be on another world and I want to play with him/her with one of my characters that's on a different world, 1) I'll have to ask Blizzard to transfer it over, 2) pay them a gross (and by "gross", I mean "disgusting") sum of money to do so, and 3) wait for who-knows-how-long for them to do it. Days, weeks, months? Who knows. They seem to tend to do things at a pace that suits them, rather than the player. I guess I can't really blame them though, if they're busy. They've got a lot of players to deal with. But that's not the point. The first two are the big problems.

Or, 4). Reroll a character on their server. It really isn't hard to do; they realize that people like to experiment and try different things. You're encouraged to roll alternate characters in WoW partly for that reason. You're allowed a Max of 50 characters per account, 10 per server. That's plenty. And the price to move a character isn't THAT bad, and as others said, it is pretty quick. I was able to move mine within 3 hours of my application.

Next, we have the players themselves. And, my god, if you haven't been on a WoW server, you haven't seen nasty. The people in this game can be freaking vicious--no, rabid--NO, psychotic. Yeah, that. Absolutely, crack-pot, bat-crap insane. Hostility? Through the roof. l33t-freaks? Like you wouldn't believe. Murderers? ...In some cases. Did you know? People are sometimes outright murdered in real life by players who are so disturbingly into that game, they think that anyone who crosses them over it needs to die. For real. I mean... how screwed up do you have to be to do something like that? It may be uncommon, but I'm certainly not going to chance coming across one of those nut jobs if it means I'll get MURDERED, thanks.

I've been playing since Early-to-Mid Vanilla. I've never been stalked IRL. I don't really get how someone is going to know where you live through a game (unless you TELL someone, which is exceedingly stupid), even if they did care THAT much.

Aside from that, there are so few generally nice players in there, it's like trying to find a needle... in a pile of needles... inside a warehouse filled with numerous piles of needles. As one particular Istarian said here on the forums somewhere, asking for help/making a comment/trying to be nice, etc in that kind of game is just like asking to be derided, branded a "noob", generally despised by the 'vets', have your name smeared into gruok dung for eternity... I can go on. It's just sad how little there is in terms of community in that game. Everyone hates everyone else, unless your one of the haters, in which case, you're looked at as "cool" because you frequently degrade other newbies. To hate is to be loved by those that hate. *sigh* Sad.

I've never been called a noob or anything of the sort when asking for help in WoW. It happens, but that's what the ignore funciton is. For every 1 idiot that calls you a noob, there's 5 more ready to answer your questions. Also, there are HUGE wikibases on WoWhead/Wowpedia/Allakhazam that cover 99.9999% of anything you need to know about WoW. Istaria's wiki is... well.

Next is more a personal gripe of mine, but I may as well inform those that haven't played the game before. It's two-fold: the leveling system and the abilities/trades system.

First off, levels. Every expansion sees another ten added to the level cap, which would make this newest one I think 90? Hm... not really sure about that. Haven't been bothered to keep track. Regardless, the game play is essentially this: if you haven't maxed out your level yet, you're still a noob and you can't actually do very much in the game at all because you're too weak/inexperienced. Monsters still kill you, quests remain incomplete and items are too high on the tier system to be used/equipped. Until you've hit the maximum, you're not 'really' playing the game because you're so limited as to what you can do.

Newest one only adds 85, due to the massive revamping of the old world. WoW makes it EASY for you to catch up to the older players, because when a new expansion is released, the veterans' elite dungeon gear is eventually replaced by the same quested greens you will eventually get. And no monster will kill you -- you can start WoW right now at level 1 and level clear up to 80 with no problems at all! You aren't going to be thrown into Northrend at Level 1. No, you start where all Level 1s have started since the dawn of WoW. In fact, WoW is something of a unique MMORPG in this; no other MMORPG I know of frequently gives "catch-up" sessions where the new can catch up to the vets in terms of PvE and PvP both.

On top of that, the game play is very much group-oriented. Kind of ironic, considering how generally evil some of those players can be, having to team up with so many at one time. Anyway, much of what you can do is very limited to massive group efforts. Even when you're maxed out, you'll likely be finding it impossible to complete even one-tenth of the overall game play (trades not included; more on that later) without grouping up with a bunch of other people in the faint hope that you'll be able to successfully defeat that one particular boss or finish that certain quest, etc.

Other than a few optional group quests in the world, the only thing you need groups for are Dungeons and Raids. You're not forced to do them.

Forced group game play is a massive no-no in my books. It should be totally optional and you should be able to solo 100% of the game without any help what-so-ever if you desire. It may be hard work-yes, but it should still be open to those that are willing to go through that. And, in a horrid community like WoW's, I would definitely be willing.

Why make WoW an MMORPG at all if EVERYTHING is solo-able? That doesn't make a lick of sense. I mean, take the Lich King for example. Why should someone be able to SOLO such a huge, evil MONSTER of a person who has killed millions of people? Raid Bosses are _epic_ battles between insanely powerful monsters and groups of brave heroes. I mean, in Istaria, do you complain that you can't solo Fafnir, or Sharoth, or what-not?

Finally, in terms of the level system, there's the fact that leveling is truly a joke. You hit that maximum so fast, with so little effort that (coupled with the above grievances), it may as well not even be a part of the game at all. "You've hit maximum? Whoop-dee-freakin-doo." is about all you get from the 'vets' because, well, it's just too easy. They practically hand them to you on a silver platter. There's so little work involved, you feel as though you've accomplished nothing. That's why games like Istaria are all but dead nowadays; players are so used to "modern" gaming that dumbs everything down, gives the players essentially zero challenge starting out and makes them go through no effort to gain levels/skills/equips, etc, that games that actually make you feel like you've achieved something when you gain that level, learn that skill or find that equip (Ie, make you work for it) are shunned and despised.

Yeah, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is fun or challenging.

Leveling in Istaria is just like leveling in WoW, only in Istaria you don't have quests or anything to break up the Tedium of killing the same few golems/treants/whatever thousands of times until you move onto slightly stronger golem/treant/whatever. The only difference is, you have to kill a fewer number of them. Once you kill it 3-5 times, you've proven that you can kill the stupid thing. Time to move onto something new. No, Istaria makes you kill it 50+ more times, because the first 5 times you killed it wasn't redundant enough.

Personally, I like that feeling of self-satisfaction when I've finally gotten what I was hoping to achieve. If it's wrong to enjoy that sensation of finally seeing your hard effort rewarded after you've shed blood, sweat and tears for it, then sue me. I can't stand games that give you everything. It defeats the purpose of even having systems like those in place.

When I finally gain a level in Istaria, my very first thought is "man, its about freaking TIME." or "Thank God I don't have to do That again." Seriously, Istaria isn't "hard" to level in, the only challenge is trying to figure out how to do it as quickly as possible. Anybody can beat on golems all day long and gain levels. That's child's play.

And now, for the trade system. Every expansion, they add a bucket-load of new trades to learn, but only enough skill points per level to learn a tiny fraction of what can be learned in those new trades, not to mention all the other ones that preceded them. There are so many things to learn and yet you'll never be able to learn them all with one character. Never. You know why? Because obviously your player has a limited memory bank in that brain of theirs and can only learn so much before their brain seizes up and can't learn any more. Not unlike real life. Wait, no, that's no like real life at all. In fact, it's the opposite... hmm...

They limit how many things any one character can learn, so that you don't get a "Do It All Yourself" Syndrome. Unlike Istaria, WoW has a thriving economy. Why? Because you don't have everyone being able to make everything themselves. Yes, my Blacksmithing can make me money? Why? Because there's somebody out there needing a weapon or armor, who is willing to pay me to make it for them because they don't have Blacksmithing. They might have, say, Jewelcrafting. Hey look, I need a gem cut. I can't do Jewelcrafting because I have Mining and Blacksmithing. I hand them a gem, they cut it for me, I tip em, and they hand me the cut gem in return. It is called TRADING. You can't have that when everyone knows how to do everything!

That, and in WoW, each craft has its own unique benefits to the characters. Miners get extra Stamina (which grants extra health), Herbalists can get access to a mild Heal-over-Time spell, Skinners have a higher critical hit chance, Blacksmiths can socket their bracers and gloves, Leatherworkers, Scribes, and Tailors get extra item enchants that nobody else has access to. If any one character could have access to all of these simultaneously, it'd be too overpowered.

I don't mind having to make choices toward your character's development that affect game play--it can be fun even, if done correctly--but essentially preventing your character from learning any more than one one-hundredth of all the available trades is so... restricting. What? Do they fear that their players won't be responsible enough to handle such power as to know everything there is to know? To be able to do everything there is to do, trade-wise? Oh, look; more forced game play elements, this time in the form of "forced multiple characters". Yep, the only way you'll ever be able to experience 100% of the game is by making truckloads of new characters that you can grind up to make into specialized tradesman. Never will you be able to make that one "über-character" that can do everything.

I LIKE having multiple characters, thankyouverymuch.

In Istaria, everything takes so dang long to do, it discourages multiple characters, especially bipeds. I like my Saris, but sometimes I wonder... "what would it be like to have a Sslik? I wonder what it is like playing a Dryad?" I'm not going to go find out, because it'd take me 3,000 years to actually get them leveled to where they are useful.

Why is it so wrong to want to become "godly"?

Weren't you just griping about how leveling in WoW is "Too easy"? If your character is too godly, then everything is too easy. To make things challenging for the "Godly" bipeds in Istaria, the devs had to resort to having mobs being stupidly cheap (one-hit kills, perma-stuns, ridiculous numbers of mobs swarming you, etc) just to keep some challenge there. WoW went another route -- they limited characters' power, so that insta-kills, perma-stuns, etc weren't necessary to maintain a challenge level.

I mean, it's not unfair if everyone can eventually do it. It just takes time. I used to frequently play a game with a leveling/skill system that was only restricted by the maximum. Essentially, with enough hard work and effort, you could ascend into the realm of godliness that was the true epitome of the "über". You knew everything. You did everything. You could fight any fight, kill any monster, craft any tool and explore any area of the game you desired. The world truly was at your fingertips.

What good is becoming a god in a game, when there's nothing left to challenge you? That's the day you quit.

[Armameteus]

I won't go into all the detail I was going to go into, cuz other people said it briefer than me. Its not possible for me to be brief...lol.

The only thing I'd add to something Raptress commented on - is the "required group system." Well since you don't know the top level I don't expect you to realize this now - but you can solo your way from 1 to 85 the new top level in the next expansion. Don't have a group a single time. Yes, when you get to end-game you can either solo-daily quest, solo pvp, group pvp, or group raid. But uhh, that's true for every game at end game except for Second Life (no end game) and Eve.

So, no actually, yhou never have to group to do much ofa nything. Except enter group content. But then, Istaria has a group dungeon too. I mean you can go solo in there but I bet you would probably die .

So, in the idea of being brief(er) than I was going to be I"ll get to my main point.

Well let me tell you bout this very small game, that came out a year before WoW. Now back when they both launched they both cost the same a month. But that really small game, actually went through several owners, and releases actual content updates probably once a year if that often. That WoW game well they release content quite reguarly in addition to expansions and improved game mechanics.

And yet both those games still cost the same in that monthly subscription.

Which gets to the main point I always make and then move on in these threads - 95% of the complaints about WoW are complaints you can also make about 95% of the other live MMO games (including most "f2p" ones as well). I would never say WoW is Perfect, but I say no other game is either.

You certianly have a right to hate a game just because..you don't like it.

I only ever "get irked" (you know, like when people make those first posts lol) when the person uses a whole buncha reasons that most other MMOs (they like) also do - but "WoW does it so I hate it." But wait..you play these other MMOS that do many of the same things.

Just not like something for not liking it. I dont like LOTR, AoC, Warhammer, CoH, CO, uhh..*tries to think of more MMOs most of which she didnt like just cuz she didn't like*.

I can't point to LOTR and give examples as to why what they did was really much different (a few differences yes) from WoW - but I know I Didn't like it and I can give things I found boring. Doesn't mean WoW doesn't have that boring either. So really, it just comes down to "meh couldn't get into it" .

Now - if this is more of a positive/negative discussiona dn not just a rant - well we can get into this whole compare/contrast live MMO mechanics discussion.

If this is meant to stay a rant - more power to ya - I just dont like knee jerk reactions. To be fair, if I'm in Istaria or EQII general chat and chat starts bashing any game, I crap on their fun too .

Amazingly enough, I have actually never witnessed a "other game bashing" discussion on my WoW server's trade chat...lol. Intersting .

You use a lot of winky smilies in your posts.

Anyway, if you're implying I don't like WoW "just because I don't like it", that isn't true. I dislike WoW for the reasons I gave. As well, I hate all MMOs that are the same way, or at least similar. Again, this whole thing is just because the conversation happened to be about WoW and because WoW is so well known.

When I rant out loud to other people, I don't expect them to agree with me 100%. Like I said, a rant, to me, is more like a debate where you also get to vent a little. If I just wanted to rant for the sake of ranting, I wouldn't post it up anywhere at all, unless I know for certain every person I was talking to would agree with me, which rarely ever happens. Usually, I'd just talk to one other person with like feelings about such things and vent that way if all I wanted to do was vent. I like putting these kinds of rants into open forums sometimes though simply because I enjoy a debate every now and again because I like hearing other people's opinions/seeing who might actually agree with me/seeing if there's something I wasn't aware of and will be enlightened to from someone else's rebuttal, etc.

In short, no, I don't only hate WoW. I have many other "irks" that I could talk about. This is just one of them. Or, rather, this type of comparative MMO is one of them.

Anyway, this is getting derailed here people! Back to why WoW sucks!

[Raptress]

Anyway, this is getting derailed here people! Back to why WoW sucks!

You said this was a debate, so how is disagreeing and adding to an actual debate "derailing?" :P

[Armameteus]

You said this was a debate, so how is disagreeing and adding to an actual debate "derailing?" :P

I meant that it was getting off-topic to being more about why I was debating, rather than what we're debating about. Sorry if I wasn't clear. D'oh. >_<

[Armameteus]

WoW player here.

You haven't checked right, or recently. The original game is $19.99. The Burning Crusade's price was dropped to $19.99 I believe. That already is cheaper than most non-MMORPG games out there, $10 cheaper. Okay, there's Wrath. I bet it will be dropped in price once Cataclysm is released. Still isn't that bad.

No, I haven't checked recently, but can you blame me? Regardless, I think the whole idea behind buying a game and still paying a subscription is just a way to milk your players for money. It's wrong. It's like the government making you pay taxes. Essentially they're stealing and telling you it's going toward making something better/fixing something, etc, which I don't believe in the slightest.

They give you discounts for 6-month subs. It is actually cheaper than Istaria's paid subscription if you buy the 6-month sub.

Factoring in the cost of the game and all the subsequent expansions, assuming you're hardcore and buy them on the day they come out, when they cost the most, then, no, it's not. It's still a huge cash-cow to them and nothing more.

I don't see the problem here. WoW has five different server types:

Public Test Realm (Istaria's Blight server)
PvE (Istaria's Chaos)
PvP (The opposing side can attack you at any time if you're in enemy or contested territory)
RP (Istaria's Order)
RP-PvP (Same as PvP, only also RP)

I've seen some of the supposed RPing in that game. Spamtastic. Or just plain gross. I'm not usually in the mood for open-chat sex-orgies. O_o

Or, 4). Reroll a character on their server. It really isn't hard to do; they realize that people like to experiment and try different things. You're encouraged to roll alternate characters in WoW partly for that reason. You're allowed a Max of 50 characters per account, 10 per server. That's plenty. And the price to move a character isn't THAT bad, and as others said, it is pretty quick. I was able to move mine within 3 hours of my application.

That's just it though. You shouldn't have to "reroll" a character if you just want to switch worlds. I'm the type of person that likes having one account in a game and playing it to death before I either create another or move onto a different game. 50 characters per account is ridiculously too many, in my opinion. You shouldn't have to create 50 different characters just so you can experience everything a game has to offer. You should be able to do it in 1.

As for switching characters to other worlds, I was comparing it to Istaria's three because there's only three. There's way more on WoW and the chances of needing to world-hop for one reason or another is exceedingly higher. I still hate the idea that your character gets locked to a world and you have to pay to switch it. To me, that's both a problem that should be addressed somehow or should be free until said problem is fixed. Not used to milk players for even more money, however little it is to some people.

I've been playing since Early-to-Mid Vanilla. I've never been stalked IRL. I don't really get how someone is going to know where you live through a game (unless you TELL someone, which is exceedingly stupid), even if they did care THAT much.

You just got lucky then. It still happens, however seldom. Some people are just plain crazy. You just didn't happen to bump into one of them, thank goodness. I'm really secure when I do anything online. You can go to any sight I've ever been on, and game I've ever played and ask any person who knows me and I can guarantee you that not one will know me by my real name, let alone have any of my personal information. Yet, I'd still never play WoW knowing that, even by some slim margin, there was a chance that I'd find one of those types. I'm a low-risk individual. You can bet that if Istaria suddenly had one of them on here and he went out and killed another player, I'd hightail it out of here in a second. You'd never see me again.

I've never been called a noob or anything of the sort when asking for help in WoW. It happens, but that's what the ignore funciton is. For every 1 idiot that calls you a noob, there's 5 more ready to answer your questions. Also, there are HUGE wikibases on WoWhead/Wowpedia/Allakhazam that cover 99.9999% of anything you need to know about WoW. Istaria's wiki is... well.

It always seems to me it's more the other way around. 5 jerks to the 1 nice guy. Ignore is an option, but it's not one I want to find myself choosing every 5 minutes. It's a game, not virtual solitary-confinement.

As for the wiki's, yeah, I guess it makes sense that you'd get annoyed at someone asking questions that could be answered on a wiki. But that's still no right to go around calling others "noob"s or any other derogatory thing because you think you know more than them/are a better player, etc.

Newest one only adds 85, due to the massive revamping of the old world. WoW makes it EASY for you to catch up to the older players, because when a new expansion is released, the veterans' elite dungeon gear is eventually replaced by the same quested greens you will eventually get. And no monster will kill you -- you can start WoW right now at level 1 and level clear up to 80 with no problems at all! You aren't going to be thrown into Northrend at Level 1. No, you start where all Level 1s have started since the dawn of WoW. In fact, WoW is something of a unique MMORPG in this; no other MMORPG I know of frequently gives "catch-up" sessions where the new can catch up to the vets in terms of PvE and PvP both.

That's just it though. Making it easy is one of my turn-offs for a game. I don't want to make it up to the same level as the vet who called me a noob last week in that space of time. I want him to keep bumping into me, day after day, watching as my levels slowly increased and the gap between us grew smaller and smaller. I passed by wearing better and better gear, using better and better spells/abilities only for that day to come when he realizes that I've fought my way up that arduous ladder to get to the same tier that he was, using the same things he was and doing everything he could do. That's the satisfaction I get from grinding up the hard way, just like everyone else has to do, so when I finally get there, he can only look at me in stunned silence. He calls me a noob or any some such then, I can just tell him to shove it because he's got nothing on me anymore. Sweet success.

That's the kind of level system I like. WoW's is the 'easy button simplified'. Next thing you know, they're just going to say, "forget the grinding system altogether. Let's just have them start at the max and go from there." Lame.

Other than a few optional group quests in the world, the only thing you need groups for are Dungeons and Raids. You're not forced to do them.

Why make WoW an MMORPG at all if EVERYTHING is solo-able? That doesn't make a lick of sense. I mean, take the Lich King for example. Why should someone be able to SOLO such a huge, evil MONSTER of a person who has killed millions of people? Raid Bosses are _epic_ battles between insanely powerful monsters and groups of brave heroes. I mean, in Istaria, do you complain that you can't solo Fafnir, or Sharoth, or what-not?

You're not forced to do them, no. But to experience the full game, you usually have to. And that's not cool. A good MMO is like real life: you can make friends and companions if you want to. Force me to get someone to help, and that just sucks the fun out of it, especially when no one will group with you because you're too weak/you're just generally disliked for some reason/you keep bumping into jerk-offs who won't help regardless, etc. If it was easy to find a group of people you could easily get along with, I wouldn't have a problem. But life's not like that. And MMO life is practically the opposite.

And, before you say it, no, fighting an epic monster all on your own is not very realistic, but it certainly is pretty awesome to be able to say "I've slain the greatest beast in all *insert name of fantastical land here*!" When you do it with a group, it certainly looks kind of cool, but it takes the prestige out of it because "I needed help to do it though."

That's why a difficulty system would be a nice improvement. That way, you still get the content of the game on your own, being able to experience that final battle with the Lich King or whomever you may, but still have the open option to go into an even harder battle in which you may very well need a group. It's the content that bugs me; if you can't at least experience it on your own the first time if you want, then that's a flaw. You should always be able to, yet still have the option open for groups by repeating the same battles/traversing the same dungeons/completing the same quest, etc, just on a harder difficulty. If WoW had that kind of feature, I would probably be praising it for such a thing. That would shoot it up a fair notch on my list of MMOs. Maybe not to the point of me playing it, but still.

Yeah, like doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again is fun or challenging.

It is if it gets harder every time, with the enemies employing new abilities or "tricks" to fight you with. Getting smarter, getting stronger, using new attacks, etc always ensures the battles are never quite the same. And besides, it's not like you're being forced to do them again and again, like you said.

Leveling in Istaria is just like leveling in WoW, only in Istaria you don't have quests or anything to break up the Tedium of killing the same few golems/treants/whatever thousands of times until you move onto slightly stronger golem/treant/whatever. The only difference is, you have to kill a fewer number of them. Once you kill it 3-5 times, you've proven that you can kill the stupid thing. Time to move onto something new. No, Istaria makes you kill it 50+ more times, because the first 5 times you killed it wasn't redundant enough.

That's for those that grind the same monotonous way, on the same boring creature. I don't grind until I've hit my "comfort zone" for fighting a new creature, I grind only until I can just barely handle the next big mob. Then, when I encounter it, it's an adrenaline-fulled battle of EPIC PROPORTIONS (at least to me) because they're so freaking strong/smart, etc. Half the fun in grinding is setting your own goals and pushing your limits. I have just as much fun, if not more fun doing that than any silly old quest this, or any MMO, could toss my way.

When I finally gain a level in Istaria, my very first thought is "man, its about freaking TIME." or "Thank God I don't have to do That again." Seriously, Istaria isn't "hard" to level in, the only challenge is trying to figure out how to do it as quickly as possible. Anybody can beat on golems all day long and gain levels. That's child's play.

And, if you'd bothered to read the responses I'd given others, you'd see that I'm only comparing it to Istaria because Istaria is on the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to my frustrations. I'm not saying it's perfect--far from it--but, in my eyes at least, the redeemable factors outweigh its faults, just as WoW has too many cons to beat out its pros.

Leveling can be tedious, yes. But make it too easy (Like WoW) and it takes all the gratification out of even gaining a level, let alone reaching the max. If anything, maxing out as fast as you do sucks out the "fun" faster than grinding to death with little reward.

They limit how many things any one character can learn, so that you don't get a "Do It All Yourself" Syndrome. Unlike Istaria, WoW has a thriving economy. Why? Because you don't have everyone being able to make everything themselves. Yes, my Blacksmithing can make me money? Why? Because there's somebody out there needing a weapon or armor, who is willing to pay me to make it for them because they don't have Blacksmithing. They might have, say, Jewelcrafting. Hey look, I need a gem cut. I can't do Jewelcrafting because I have Mining and Blacksmithing. I hand them a gem, they cut it for me, I tip em, and they hand me the cut gem in return. It is called TRADING. You can't have that when everyone knows how to do everything!

Dude, calm down. I know how the economy works. But, in the same way you have a valid point, so do I. Let's look.

Trading is important, yes. Keeps the economy growing, changing, moving, etc. That's all good. Only problems there though are that player-run economies can easily (and tend to) spiral out of whack because people tend to over-inflate prices. Granted, with such a massive player base like WoW, it would never get too messed up, even with the a-holes out there deliberately trying to rip every single person off.

Only thing is that, if you happen to be disliked for whatever reason by a lot of people (or at least everyone you keep asking for that one particular set of armour or what-have-you) and no one helps out, then what? How long do you plan to just wing it until that one nice guy comes along as says "Hey, I'm not going to try to rip you off. Here's what you've been looking for at a reasonable price. Have a nice day now!" I mean, those kinds of people are so rare in large MMOs because, as Shian put it, it seems that anonymity for some reason equates to "I'm allowed to be a jerk" in some people's minds.

I just like the idea of being self-reliant. I don't want to have to worry that I won't get what I need from someone else when I happen to need it. What if I was in a guild that planned on going on a really high-tiered raid and I needed a specific type of armour to easily deal with the abilities that the mobs have? Now, what if I couldn't, for the life of me, get a hold of that certain piece of armour that has those very specific abilities because someone hasn't by strange chance made one already and is willing to sell it, I'm getting ripped off by the one that is willing to sell it because I need it and he's extorting me, or something like that and then have to tell my guildmates that I was sorry I couldn't come along because I didn't have the right gear?

I like to be able to say "Hold on, I just need to craft such-and-such type of armour and I'll meet up with you in 10 minutes" because I like not having to leave my entire night's plan to go raiding with friends up to the chance that I won't be properly equipped for it.

That, and in WoW, each craft has its own unique benefits to the characters. Miners get extra Stamina (which grants extra health), Herbalists can get access to a mild Heal-over-Time spell, Skinners have a higher critical hit chance, Blacksmiths can socket their bracers and gloves, Leatherworkers, Scribes, and Tailors get extra item enchants that nobody else has access to. If any one character could have access to all of these simultaneously, it'd be too overpowered.

That's just it though. If everyone can do it, than everyone has the potential to be just as strong. So your point is moot. It's not like only select players are going to get these abilities unless they want to. But in that case, it's their choice. You don't want to level up one particular trade that it gives you a useful boost and yet you'll complain about it to others who do have it? Stop being lazy, maybe?

I LIKE having multiple characters, thankyouverymuch.

In Istaria, everything takes so dang long to do, it discourages multiple characters, especially bipeds. I like my Saris, but sometimes I wonder... "what would it be like to have a Sslik? I wonder what it is like playing a Dryad?" I'm not going to go find out, because it'd take me 3,000 years to actually get them leveled to where they are useful.

Well, some people do like doing that, thankyouverymuch. Myself being one of them. You don't have to spend all your time on each character if you don't want to. See above, "You're not being forced to".

If you like having multiple characters, that's cool with me. Obviously you enjoy WoW more than Istaria, so I'm not going to tell you your opinion is wrong. I'm just saying that I don't look at it like that because I want to know what other characters are like. I'm not going to say "Make leveling easier so I can make more characters" because there's nothing stopping you from doing it other than your own preferences anyway. If you don't like grinding for levels, then don't. Go play WoW or stop being lazy.

Weren't you just griping about how leveling in WoW is "Too easy"? If your character is too godly, then everything is too easy. To make things challenging for the "Godly" bipeds in Istaria, the devs had to resort to having mobs being stupidly cheap (one-hit kills, perma-stuns, ridiculous numbers of mobs swarming you, etc) just to keep some challenge there. WoW went another route -- they limited characters' power, so that insta-kills, perma-stuns, etc weren't necessary to maintain a challenge level.

And if there was a difficulty system put in place in Istaria or WoW, it would solve that problem instantly. Moot.

Some like it stupidly-easy, others stupidly-hard. The idea of godliness isn't so bad if everyone was the same and if the mobs had variable degrees of difficulty chosen by the player. Insta-kills and perma-stuns aren't the only route a game needs to take to be challenging. Give the mobs more health, give them stronger attacks, make them smarter, etc. "Godly" isn't the same thing to both of us. By "godly", if you'd been reading enough of what I said, means being able to do anything you want. Tied in with the difficulty system and even a "godly" character can still be challenged without the need to add in cheap abilities to the mob. There is a max, yes, but in terms of being able to have all abilities that can be gotten in a game collected and maxed out. Just because you're maxed out though, doesn't mean there isn't a mob out there that isn't just a little bit stronger than you.

What good is becoming a god in a game, when there's nothing left to challenge you? That's the day you quit.

And, again, if you'd taken the time to read everything I'd said, including my responses to other people, you'd see that I also stated that being godly doesn't mean it has to be boring. Have fun with your new abilities and what you can do. Take the time to appreciate being able to do everything the game has to offer thus far until the next expansion comes out and then start getting those levels up in your new skills until you've hit godliness all over again. Rinse, repeat and have fun.

Of course, throughout this whole conversation though, you've struck me as the type that likes having everything given to you and having everything in terms of character development be easy. You want it now, with as little effort as possible. You want your levels fast, your items strong and your game completed as fast as you can. By saying "Once you've done everything, you may as well quit", you obviously don't really take any pride in finishing a game or trying to find its replay value. You want to get from one game to the next, defeating each one as fast as possible before moving on.

Istaria just isn't for you then. Because that's not how it works. You prefer WoW? Go play it. It's all preferences. I'm ranting about WoW because I don't like it. I like games like Istaria, where reward comes solely from hard work, where you don't get everything handed to you so easily, and where there's a community that's filled with considerate, kind people that are willing to help out if someone asks. WoW has none of that and, for me, it's a game breaker.

But to each their own. I'm not telling you to stop playing WoW. I'm just telling you you'll never find me on any of their servers. So have fun with the game you like playing.

[Shian]

Anyway, this is getting derailed here people! Back to why WoW sucks!

Can I tack on my gripes then? I hope this is okay. If not, I'm sure a mod can delete it.

I MUST have been spoiled, my first MMO being SWG. The game where I never got bored, and when I did, I just changed the game from turn based RPG style to FPS. (Ground and space pre-NGE)

Tried WoW because my old HS friends were playing it. To be honest I was attracted to all the modern references in it- surely with this kind of icing there has to be cake right? Why would so many people play it?

Only it was the most "dumbed down" MMO I've ever played (still)

Click-craft-done. In order to be successful at crafting, you just had to Click-craft-done until your level rose. Seriously? How do people find this fun? I'm still scratching my head... because I'm imagining my SWG character sitting on Mustafar hand mining ore because it's got the best stats on the server. One component out of like 20 and you had to wait weeks for resources to cycle. Did I mention the stats were random?
Okay, so having it THAT complex wasn't exactly fun either, but to go from 10 to 0 is like ramming your nose into a brick wall.
Okay, so crafting's terrible. No worse than City Of or Cryptic titles.

I was irritated that your character looked like everyone else's. For a game that's "Top dog" the character creation sure leaves much to the imagination! Mildly amused by the fact that as you grew in levels, the avatar grew also.

It was about that point that my friends said 'see ya at 80' and ran off because apparently you are NOTHING until you are max level. Excuse me? What happened to the adventure? The thrill of getting there? Nope. This does NOT exist in WoW and will forever be something I hold Istaria dear for. You matter no matter your level.

Then I found the community.... Oh god WHY? It is no wonder a good friend of mine plays Wow solo. As in, turns off all chats, never accepts group invites etc. Surely it is less stressful. Perhaps I should have done that instead.

As an adult, I firmly believe that there are times when nothing can describe and accurately portray what you are feeling towards something than a curse word of your choice. Sadly such things are far far overused. Kinda like those people that type lol every third word. I fear for today's vocabulary range. Even my own has deteriorated since 'not having time for books anymore,' but you'd think some people would get bored of doing nothing but insulting each other all day. Even when on an RP shard, I found no RP to be had. (I soon learned this was somewhat of an MMO norm when I started playing AoC)

Half a game is only half a game. I spent a good time playing Wow being constantly twitchy. There was something missing. Being brought up in SWG, there was TONS missing: engrossing story, two different styles of gameplay, crafting, 'extras' like fishing and cantina crawls. The most prominent though was no housing system. Any game without it to me is only half a game. Why run out and get that cool axe from "insert really difficult instance here" when there's no way to show it off? At the time, I had won multiple decorator contests across a swath of SOE titles, even casting off whatever profession the game gave me to become a professional decorator. Yes, people paid me to come organize all their war trophies into something nice. This was something I really couldn't get over as I recently discovered.

So with half a game and no one to play with, I soon got violent tendencies after getting sent on "WTF" missions. These missions are: "Hey, go find me some Wolf blood or Spider Eyes for no reason at all." After killing 40 wolves and finding only two of them have blood, I really wonder.... why? Why all these wolves and they somehow don't have blood in their system?!

Will give kudos here to AoC in this regard. The game has really cool missions that have a story, make you want to go out and get whatever it is the NPC is asking for and did I mention they don't ask for stupid items like spider legs? Too bad it had inventory issues so bad that you could only work on one quest at a time.

Yes, it took that long for me to realize I was not having fun at all and promptly canceled, wandering off into the wild blue yonder of cyberspace looking for another MMO I could call home.

[Nisse]

As for what they're good at, I was referring to good games. Just because they have a massive player base doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good game. Quality over quantity is more important, in my opinion. You can have the biggest pile of crap in the world, but it's still a pile of crap. That kind of thing isn't something to be proud of. And that's what I feel WoW is.

I'm very sorry you feel so badly about WoW. Just recently, I was able to defend my own home city against masses of invading forces. And I was able to fight alongside my leaders. And alongside masses of other players.

Blizzard does listen to its playerbase, quite a lot in fact. Its developers frequent the forums just as much as the ones for this MMO do.

And before you stop me--I do know quite a lot about both of the games we are trying to compare here. Played Istaria since 2004, left for a while. Played WoW since 2008 ish. Love them both. Not blindly either.

[Armameteus]

I'm very sorry you feel so badly about WoW. Just recently, I was able to defend my own home city against masses of invading forces. And I was able to fight alongside my leaders. And alongside masses of other players.

Blizzard does listen to its playerbase, quite a lot in fact. Its developers frequent the forums just as much as the ones for this MMO do.

And before you stop me--I do know quite a lot about both of the games we are trying to compare here. Played Istaria since 2004, left for a while. Played WoW since 2008 ish. Love them both. Not blindly either.

If that's what you find entertaining, then don't let my obviously shallow and completely biased words stop you. I'm sorry for having an opinion.

[Nisse]

edit to add: Us jerky WoW players are gathering and hanging out together in a capital city doing something eerily reminiscent of Istaria. Only replace mammoths with Istarian dragons.

[Armameteus]

I couldn't agree more to everything you just said. It's like you're reading my mind. For this, I suppose I'll make an exception an let this post live. And now... comedy!

Can I tack on my gripes then? I hope this is okay. If not, I'm sure a mod can delete it.

I MUST have been spoiled, my first MMO being SWG. The game where I never got bored, and when I did, I just changed the game from turn based RPG style to FPS. (Ground and space pre-NGE)

Tried WoW because my old HS friends were playing it. To be honest I was attracted to all the modern references in it- surely with this kind of icing there has to be cake right? Why would so many people play it?

Only it was the most "dumbed down" MMO I've ever played (still)

Click-craft-done. In order to be successful at crafting, you just had to Click-craft-done until your level rose. Seriously? How do people find this fun? I'm still scratching my head... because I'm imagining my SWG character sitting on Mustafar hand mining ore because it's got the best stats on the server. One component out of like 20 and you had to wait weeks for resources to cycle. Did I mention the stats were random?
Okay, so having it THAT complex wasn't exactly fun either, but to go from 10 to 0 is like ramming your nose into a brick wall.
Okay, so crafting's terrible. No worse than City Of or Cryptic titles.

I do prefer more in-depth crafting systems. It adds that feeling of accomplishment I so desire in a truly "fun" MMO. Having to actually work a fair bit for that thing you've always wanted makes it really feel like you've made something you want to keep hold of.

Sometimes, if I make myself something I'm really proud of for some reason... I'll name it. Yeah, like a sword I made that I thought was so bad-***, I'd give it a title like "The Harbinger" or something because, dang it, I just spend a fair chunk of my day making this thing and I'm sure as heck going to revel in my accomplishment.

...Even if it's comparatively lame to stronger swords I'll make later on that will also be called "The Harbinger" or "The Harbinger II" or something.

I was irritated that your character looked like everyone else's. For a game that's "Top dog" the character creation sure leaves much to the imagination! Mildly amused by the fact that as you grew in levels, the avatar grew also.

I like games where you don't look like everyone else. Even if the armour and weaponry look cool, you're still "just as cool" as everyone else, so it's not really... cool anymore.

It was about that point that my friends said 'see ya at 80' and ran off because apparently you are NOTHING until you are max level. Excuse me? What happened to the adventure? The thrill of getting there? Nope. This does NOT exist in WoW and will forever be something I hold Istaria dear for. You matter no matter your level.

"Let's Play a game together!"
"Okay!"
"Great! Now... go off and get stronger while I spend all my time doing other stuff!"
"Oka--wait, what?"

Like I said to Dhalin, they're probably going to just scrap the whole level concept eventually and start everyone off at max to begin with because they finally realize you're essentially useless until you've hit that max.

Then I found the community.... Oh god WHY? It is no wonder a good friend of mine plays Wow solo. As in, turns off all chats, never accepts group invites etc. Surely it is less stressful. Perhaps I should have done that instead.

There is no community.

...I have nothing funny to put here.

As an adult, I firmly believe that there are times when nothing can describe and accurately portray what you are feeling towards something than a curse word of your choice. Sadly such things are far far overused. Kinda like those people that type lol every third word. I fear for today's vocabulary range. Even my own has deteriorated since 'not having time for books anymore,' but you'd think some people would get bored of doing nothing but insulting each other all day. Even when on an RP shard, I found no RP to be had. (I soon learned this was somewhat of an MMO norm when I started playing AoC)

I'm actually trying to bring back the whole "insults that are actual insults" thing. Nothing gives me greater pleasure when insulting someone after they've struck my last nerve than making an astute observation about their character and then exposing it with a snappy comeback. Even if they don't show it, deep down they're like "How the hell did he know that about me?!" Hee, hee. I like watching them squirm as I reenact their sad life story through the use of clever insults that actually hold merit rather than "You're a *generic curse word*"

Half a game is only half a game. I spent a good time playing Wow being constantly twitchy. There was something missing. Being brought up in SWG, there was TONS missing: engrossing story, two different styles of gameplay, crafting, 'extras' like fishing and cantina crawls. The most prominent though was no housing system. Any game without it to me is only half a game. Why run out and get that cool axe from "insert really difficult instance here" when there's no way to show it off? At the time, I had won multiple decorator contests across a swath of SOE titles, even casting off whatever profession the game gave me to become a professional decorator. Yes, people paid me to come organize all their war trophies into something nice. This was something I really couldn't get over as I recently discovered.

I've noticed that too. After playing MMOs in which you get to build your own snazzy home, WoW just sort of feels... empty. I like Istaria for it's ability to make homes, but, yeah, it's not perfect. Better than nothing though. At least it keeps me interested.

I've never played the game you're talking about (I'm not even familiar with the abbreviation you're using), but a game I used to play that had a really nice house-building section of the game was called Runescape, if you've ever heard of it. It's one of those FTP MMOs that'll always have a spot in my heart, for various reasons, one of them being the house-builder. It actually has furniture. =O

So with half a game and no one to play with, I soon got violent tendencies after getting sent on "WTF" missions. These missions are: "Hey, go find me some Wolf blood or Spider Eyes for no reason at all." After killing 40 wolves and finding only two of them have blood, I really wonder.... why? Why all these wolves and they somehow don't have blood in their system?!

Oh god, don't even get me started. Wait, you don't have to. Xanthia did it for me! Pull My Finger

Not that Istaria doesn't do that too, but still. A shame video games sort of stopped making sense for some reason.

Will give kudos here to AoC in this regard. The game has really cool missions that have a story, make you want to go out and get whatever it is the NPC is asking for and did I mention they don't ask for stupid items like spider legs? Too bad it had inventory issues so bad that you could only work on one quest at a time.

Yes, it took that long for me to realize I was not having fun at all and promptly canceled, wandering off into the wild blue yonder of cyberspace looking for another MMO I could call home.

Alas, a truly "good" MMO that has the potential to cadre to a lot of different players apart from the "I want it now" WoW players, are so few and far between. Istaria is okay, but it needs drastic improvements before it can become something really good. Even my Runescape just... doesn't... c-cut it... I'm sorry Runescape. :'(

And so... the search continues...

[Armameteus]

edit to add: Us jerky WoW players are gathering and hanging out together in a capital city doing something eerily reminiscent of Istaria. Only replace mammoths with Istarian dragons.

You have fun. Just don't go poking your eye out on those sharp mammoth tusks.

[Nisse]

And as for my earlier post. I was genuinely sad that you feel the way you do about WoW. If you don't like it, that's great. But you make it seem like it's going to be the end of all things...ow, mammoth tusk!

[Kesqui]

Note, I haven't played other games for very long - I've only played Istaria. Why? Because the entire reason I play is to play a dragon character. No other game gives that, therefore I'm not going to play any other game. I won't even be playing WoW with the transform-to-dragon-mount thing, because that's not the same as being able to PLAY as a dragon. I played Rappelz for a little while, and I learned I HATE PVP with a passion.

Anyway, my largest gripe is that they are money vampires. First off, you have to buy the game. Okay, last I checked, that's at least 20-something dollars, maybe more.

I have (somewhere) three ORIGINAL Horizons discs. Bought at £40 apiece. In 2003 the subscription fee was also more expensive. I quit in 2004 because I couldn't *afford* to play any more... especially not a game that so dreadfully gimped the "draw" character class. I came back in 2009 because the "draw" character class still only exists in Istaria.

And you know what? If it'd get more content into the game, and get the content players were asking for into the game, I'd BUY expansion packs, and although I know that the developers are against it, I wish there was the opportunity for microtransactions. ANY money to keep a game I love running = good money. Please, Virtrium, LET me throw you a couple of quid here and there to get little doodads in the game that aren't important to gameplay but look cool in, say, my lair. I tossed hundreds of pounds at Virtual Horse Ranch for custom horse colours, for goodness' sake... but I didn't want extra subscriptions.

[sarcasm mode]Oh that evil money-grubbing Istaria, playing a dragon isn't free after the first fourteen days, how dare they charge a subscription at all![/sarcasm mode]

Then there's the world system. Granted, Istaria has that, but only three-fold, and each that cadre to a different style of player, from role-players, to beta-testers, to the common gamer; those being the Order, Blight, and Chaos shards respectively. WoW on the other hand is a game which has little in terms of "dedicated" worlds and more along the lines of simple mass quantity to be able to accommodate for their huge player base. Problem is, in creating a character, they in turn become locked to the world in which they were created.

In 2003 in Horizons there were the European shards (good luck playing with your friends if you were an ex-pat American living in the UK...) and the American shards. In Europe we had Ice, Wind and Earth. I don't remember what shards there were in the North American region. In 2004 - shortly after I left - they merged the EU shards into Unity. And, of course, now it looks like all the American shards have been merged, and we have a mere three shards.

Although I can transfer to Blight for free, I can't transfer to Order for free - and if I transfer to Blight, that character can't be transferred back out.

Next, we have the players themselves. And, my god, if you haven't been on a WoW server, you haven't seen nasty. The people in this game can be freaking vicious--no, rabid--NO, psychotic. Yeah, that. Absolutely, crack-pot, bat-crap insane. Hostility? Through the roof. l33t-freaks? Like you wouldn't believe. Murderers? ...In some cases. Did you know?

Can you actually provide a cited reference for a death that's directly attributable to World of Warcraft?

There are a few.... odd... players in Istaria, too. Heaven forfend you should be minding your own business, playing as a dragon hatchling, and accept a group invite from another newbie dragon hatchling. You've got an even chance of getting someone who wants to show you "dragon mating positions". *sigh* Yes, it really, actually happened in game. Creepy.

On top of that, the game play is very much group-oriented.... Forced group game play is a massive no-no in my books. It should be totally optional and you should be able to solo 100% of the game without any help what-so-ever if you desire.

I wait with bated breath to see the videos of you soloing Reklar, Valkor, Fafnir, Son of Gigaroth, the Rift Bosses.... that'd be AWESOME fight footage.

I suspect that in WoW you would be able to play certain content "solo" as much as you like - it's just going to make things take longer, or be a bit more tedious, or change how you play a bit.

Playing Istaria solo is similar - your hunting style has to be different, the creatures you hunt are different.

Because obviously your player has a limited memory bank in that brain of theirs and can only learn so much before their brain seizes up and can't learn any more. Not unlike real life. Wait, no, that's no like real life at all. In fact, it's the opposite... hmm...

In real life you don't see people who know everything there is to know about Biochemistry and Blacksmithing and Gemcutting and Sculpting, yatta yatta yatta... people tend to either be a "journeyman" at multiple trades, a "beginner" at ALL trades or a master of one or two related trades.

I have an Istarian character who is a Confectioner. She may someday be a confectioner/alchemist. Because someday I'd like to be able to make some of the fancy-coloured dyes that are only available at Master alchemy level. But I really, really, really can't be bothered training her up in everything else (not least because I don't LIKE playing a biped particularly).... even if I know I can train her up in all of them.

I think the whole idea behind buying a game and still paying a subscription is just a way to milk your players for money.

Factoring in the cost of the game and all the subsequent expansions, assuming you're hardcore and buy them on the day they come out, when they cost the most, then, no, it's not. It's still a huge cash-cow to them and nothing more.

Games need money to survive. If the cash cow stops giving milk, they starve and die. EVERY game needs a cash cow... they aren't being run "out of the goodness of someone's heart".

You shouldn't have to create 50 different characters just so you can experience everything a game has to offer. You should be able to do it in 1.

Please explain this to Virtrium, that I should be able to experience all of the game's features with just one character. I would like to have a dragon confectioner character. I would like my dragon confectioner character to be able to make alchemical dyes. I would also like my dragon confectioner/scalecrafter/lairshaper/crystalshaper/alchemist/warrior to be able to join the Cleric school. Kesqui's always wanted to be able to cast Group Heal.

Whoops. I've gotta have at least two characters to play those schools - a dragon and a biped. And I don't like playing bipeds.

As for switching characters to other worlds, I was comparing it to Istaria's three because there's only three.

Because the game population is too low to support having more. Historically there were more, and if the game had a huge boost in population they'd probably have to open more shards simply to reduce lag issues.

It is if it gets harder every time, with the enemies employing new abilities or "tricks" to fight you with. Getting smarter, getting stronger, using new attacks, etc always ensures the battles are never quite the same. And besides, it's not like you're being forced to do them again and again, like you said.

The 97th Fire Opal Golem I fought pretty much was the same battle as the second Fire Opal Golem I fought... they don't come up with new tricks. And if I was supposed to switch to some other mob for "new experiences" ... well, that doesn't work with the "playing solo" aspect very well. Fire Opal Golems just happened to be the most efficient mob to fight in order to gain experience for what I was doing.

I'm sure I had more to say, but I've got to go to work now...

[Ahael]

Money vampires?

See http://www.geeks.co.uk/7282-activisi...heap-games-you

Essentially, Kotick is in thrall to the almighty dollar to the expense of all else. Thus: “In the last cycle of videogames you spent $50 on a game, played it and took it back to the shop for credit. Today, we’ll (charge) $100 for a guitar. You might add a microphone or drums; you might buy two or three expansions packs, different types of music. Over the life of your ownership you’ll probably buy around 25 additional song packs in digital downloads. So, what used to be a $50 sale is a $500 sale today.”

So it's no wonder WoW has so many overpriced 'services' nowadays...

Activision, Kotick said, has no interest in games that “don’t have the potential to be exploited every year on every platform with clear sequel potential and have the potential to become $100 million franchises.”

Yeah. Screw innovation, bring more sequels to sequels! NHL series anyone? Hah

I used to play original MoH:AA and Call of Duty, as well as BF1942. But the sequels? Meh... (I know I know, only CoD is published by Activision).