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Thread: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

  1. #21

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    I like 1-3.
    However I never have liked mana. I'd rather have long cool downs that use mana. Especially with all the spells we have if we multiclass the cooldowns already fit into a nice rotation.
    ^.^ *Speed Demon of order..*

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    I don't think replacing older classes is a good idea. There's a lot of risk to replacing something with something very different as compared to simply improving something. I especially don't think that classes that people are saying work fine as is should be replaced.

    If the Neo schools are going to be made into proper classes, I say add them in addition to the already existing schools. If nothing else, it's just more content to keep old players interested in the game longer. Perhaps require x amount of levels in Druid to be able to start Neo-Druid, etc.

    Whatever is done with these Neo schools, I think it best to leave the old schools more or less as they are. Istaria is not a new game. People are comfortable with their classes. Changing them now - drastically - is probably not the best direction to go.

    On that note, I don't think mana should be implemented into older classes either, since that too is a drastic change and, in fact, takes away a fairly unique part of the adventuring in Istaria, which is the lack of mana. Not saying that's a positive nor a negative, just saying it's fairly unique among MMORPGs.

    If Neo schools do go forward, I would like to see some abilities be quested for. More quests and more content are always good things, and actually learning about your class and your abilities past a name and a tooltip is always a plus to me. I would not be opposed to seeing quested abilities in existing classes either, if it comes to that.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  3. #23

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    1. Assuming the abilities for Neo-Monk/FlameDisciple were completed through level 100, would you like to see these schools replace the current Monk/Disciple schools?

    Maybe but I am hesitant about the idea at all.

    2. Would you prefer that some abilities (such as the Supers for Neo-Monk) be obtained only through questing?

    No preference but it does make sense lore and story wise.

    3. Would you like to see all of the Disciple schools revamped in the same manner as NeoMonk/FlameDisciple?

    Maybe but I am hesitant about the idea at all.

    4. Currently, Neo-Druid is setup to use mana. Would you like to see this implemented?

    No. This would be the start of a major change in game mechanics. Timers allow balancing of specific spells and abilities (abilities hereafter) against other abilities with the same or very similar effect on a tier by tier basis. Conversely, mana systems invariably increase the amount of mana used based upon the level of the ability as well as being balanced against similar abilities of a similar level. This increases the amount of development time for each ability.

    Mana is also based upon an exhaustion principle whereas timers are about delay/recovery. The two systems are mutually exclusive and would be extremely difficult to balance against each other as would be necessary during any change from timers to mana of all schools. Until all schools use the same system any school that was limited by mana would be at a disadvantage over the long term. Short term fights would be to the mana users advantage as they could chain cast a single powerful ability.

    This brings me to my last point. Mana systems are even more open to min-maxing than the current timer system. The timer system forces players to come up with different combinations based upon recovery delay of the timers. No two fights are exactly alike under either system but the timer system enforces more diversity.

    5. If you are in favor of question #4, would you also like to see other schools revamped to use mana? Such as BattleMage, Wizard, etc?

    No.

    6. The idea behind the NeoSpiritist concept is that Spiritists draw their magic from their enemies or themselves in order to cast spells/use-abilities. Would you be interested in seeing more details on this?

    Yes but not as a mana system. A resource use system would be more appropriate if it was similar to that already noted in the original post.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    1. No. Changing existing classes after 7+ years of game time would, in my opinion, be counterproductive to the existing playerbase. Adding new schools that bring a new dimension to the game, however, would be exciting.

    2. Yes. Questing always adds new tidbits of lore and progresses the story of Istaria's world. I would love to see every class get some kind of epic spell/ability that must be quested for.

    3. Yes. As long as they are added as new "Neo" classes, not overwriting existing classes.

    4. Yes. As long as it is added as a new class and does not overwrite the existing Druid class.

    5. Yes. Again, as long as they are added as new classes and do not overwrite the existing classes.

    6. Yes. The "Neo" classes are interesting. I have tried to play several of them on Blight, but as there is no mana bar showing to use as a guide it is quite frustrating to test them.

    Adding a whole new element to classes brings up alot of questions. Will some of the existing "healer type" classes get new spells that allow them to "heal" their own and other's mana? Simply adding a new potion, even if it's a mana regen over time, will not be enough to support mana hungry classes (melee classes that rely on abilities and not spellcasting). Will there be new techs for armour and weapons added to the game that boost the players base mana? Will there be spells (gifts, enhances) that boost the players base mana? Will mana be added to the list of stats that can be enhanced with training points? Will new mana stat crystals be added? Will mana be tied to stats and boosted by specific stats?

    If several of these "Neo" classes could be finished and pushed to Blight for folks to seriously test, we, the playerbase would be better able to answer the talk to the team questions and provide the feedback it seems you are looking for. Without being able to really understand the "Neo" classes it's hard for me to say whether I feel they would be a good addition to the game.

    Thaalia of Order

  5. #25

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Please drop the mana idea.

    God knows how many years of tweaking it will take to get the game balanced. The way multi classing is set up, Druid is a centerpiece of many builds. Screwing around with Druid would upset a whole lot of people.

    Like someone wrote earlier, Druid is not broken. Please don't screw it up.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Neo's as additional schools? Yes, I can go for that. It would give an alternate play-style.

    Neo's as replacements? No.

    One of the reasons I chose to play, and return to Istaria, is that being a caster doesn't require mana dependency.

    With respawn rates so high in some areas, it's non-stop fighting until you remove yourself from the area. If we had to rely on mana, these areas would be impossible once mana has been used up/drained.

    Also, if you implement a mana system, how long will it be before an endurance system would need to be added for warrior schools to balance things out? Because if mana users can't "Get the job done," then no one, or few, will play those schools and stick with non-casting schools, and an imbalance could occur.

    Let's not complicate things. Keep it simple. I say keep it as is.
    I never met a gnome I didn't like. For tender morsels they are!

  7. #27

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Ok, because I'm NOT a biped player (and never will be) please take this dragon's opinions on the Neo schools as they currently exist on Blight with a grain of salt.

    I think, at the moment, Kesqui-on-blight (who is a dragon) has a few levels of Neo-Druid - whether that was intended to be allowed for testing purposes or a bit of an oops I don't know.

    1. would you like to see these schools replace the current Monk/Disciple schools?
    No. Additional-schools, not replacement-schools. More stuff to do = good. Even if it's "level to 100 in another ADV school."

    2. Would you prefer that some abilities (such as the Supers for Neo-Monk) be obtained only through questing?
    Quested abilities seem "normal" to me, so it seems like it would be good if some abilities for at least some biped classes are also quested rather than level-attained.

    3. Would you like to see all of the Disciple schools revamped in the same manner as NeoMonk/FlameDisciple?
    4. Currently, Neo-Druid is setup to use mana. Would you like to see this implemented?
    5. If you are in favor of question #4, would you also like to see other schools revamped to use mana? Such as BattleMage, Wizard, etc?

    No preference. I can understand others' concerns that adding another mechanic could pose problems that don't currently exist, but if it's a wholly new school, having slightly different mechanics isn't so bad.

    6. The idea behind the NeoSpiritist concept is that Spiritists draw their magic from their enemies or themselves in order to cast spells/use-abilities. Would you be interested in seeing more details on this?
    Sounds interesting to me ...
    - Kesqui - Formerly of Ice, now of Chaos, lair in Liak
    First Rebirth 12-12-2003 / Ascended to Ancient 12-12-2010

  8. #28

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    #1 Yes replace neo-schools with monk/disciples
    #2 yes more quests would be great
    #3 yes all of the disciple schools should be replaced
    #4-6 I dont really care either way.



    Amon you know I have tested the neo's for years and I have told you quite a few times how much I enjoy and appreciate the process. These Neo-Classes were supposed to replace the monk/disciples originally but because of cuts it was never seen to. I really hope this gets done and for those of you who say no leave the monk/disciple as they are just remember these neo-monk/disciples are essentially the same thing as the originals, but take the concept of the class to a much better, and to be quite frank, more enjoyable route.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    1. No. I'd like to see them as an addition not a replacement. No reason to force people to play the class a new way (even if its not so different). Also, new schools = more to do!

    2. No... kinda. I'd like to see all abilities available by leveling. But having a quest that allows you to get an improvement over that ability would be nice.You shouldn't have to stop leveling to go on a quest to get abilities.

    3. If you put them in as new schools yes! If you put them in as a replacement NO.

    4. no no no no no Istaria is different because it doesn't use mana. None of our items are set up to take it into account. All I could see is this leading to something broken in the future.

    5. nope.

    6. Sure, but I'd like to see it as a new school. Could probably get some interesting lore of why we have "break away" schools if it went that way.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    I like the idea of new classes, as several others have said. I don't think that replacing existing classes should happen. To many existing players fear change. That should be completely obvious from the posts in this thread so far.

    I've played Bloodmage to 77th, I know, not quite there.. working on it. Something about the class is missing and I can't quite figure out what. I love the class though.

    New quests... yes... More more more, and not just for the Neo-classes.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    What if... You could keep your Monk levels, but if you wanted to join Neo-Monk you would have to drop Monk. So you could be in one or the other, but not both at the same time.

    Reason I am suggesting this is that I don't want to increase the number of schools and the rating. And, the whole idea behind Neo-Monk was that it was an improved Monk school.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

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  12. #32

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    I would rather have it where you master monk (100 monk), then become the neo monk if it replaces your levels as a monk (remove monk school, can never join monk again, but you have this new and improved monk edition). Essentially, you mastered your art and wanted to push your limits a little further with advanced techniques.

    Also, I think finding something else to call it other than 'Neo-Monk' - its kind of 'meh'. I think at some point I hear they were going to be called an experimentor? ... Even that sounds a little bleh too.


  13. #33

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Most of those who have played monks/disciples since the beginning of the game will tell you that dmg wise (even with fitter) they arent anywhere close to any of the other classes (minus sorcerer poor guys). What Amon is trying to do is to replace a group of classes with the neo-fixtures, that if you were all to try them would realize that it gives monks/disciples a lot more dmg gives them a much more monkey type feeling in the gameplay, as well as giving neo-monks the ability to heal (which is awesome) aoe etc. I have seen a lot of people who say dont fix what's not broken but really they havent been on par since this game came out. My suggestion: Go play a neo-monk/disciple and see how much fun it is to really do dmg again in a fun fast paced way. Again Amon I applaud you for looking into this class again and I look forward to seeing what the neo-classes have in store for them(also sorcerers they needed the loving as well)

  14. #34

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    What if... You could keep your Monk levels, but if you wanted to join Neo-Monk you would have to drop Monk. So you could be in one or the other, but not both at the same time.
    I can't imagine wanting to just throw away all that work, especially with needing those levels to get the Disciple schools. I can't see any reason why to not have both. It's not like you can actually work both at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Reason I am suggesting this is that I don't want to increase the number of schools and the rating. And, the whole idea behind Neo-Monk was that it was an improved Monk school.
    Why not increase both of those numbers? Rating doesn't mean a lot after it's high enough for various T6 stuff, so no reason to worry about higher ratings. I can see a bit of worry about DB size with another school, but <shrug> More is better, less is bad.
    SiLang Drag 100, Dcra 100, Dlsh 100 100M Hoard Ancient Dragon of Flight of the Order Shard
    Parcasta Storm Disciple 44, ARM 88, BLK 100, CRP 25, ENC 23, FIT 88, GTH 80, JWL 40, MIN 80, MSN 82, OUT 100, SCH 100, TLR 10, WPN 88, WVR 21

  15. #35

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    1. Assuming the abilities for Neo-Monk/FlameDisciple were completed through level 100, would you like to see these schools replace the current Monk/Disciple schools?

    ---More details needed on attributes & transferable abilities. Many folks took up monk for stats (Evasion/Dex etc), and Foresight.

    2. Would you prefer that some abilities (such as the Supers for Neo-Monk) be obtained only through questing?

    ---Yes, but only in extreme epic proportions for both effort and reward. Not for the faint of heart. Only the most dedicated, toughest and craziest monk may have a tiny, slightest chance to succeed.

    3. Would you like to see all of the Disciple schools revamped in the same manner as NeoMonk/FlameDisciple?

    ---If need be.

    4. Currently, Neo-Druid is setup to use mana. Would you like to see this implemented?

    No. I personally don't like any of the changes to druids over the years.

    5. If you are in favor of question #4, would you also like to see other schools revamped to use mana? Such as BattleMage, Wizard, etc?

    No mana. Ever.

    6. The idea behind the NeoSpiritist concept is that Spiritists draw their magic from their enemies or themselves in order to cast spells/use-abilities. Would you be interested in seeing more details on this?

    Spiritist isn't broken. No need to fix/revamp.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    I'm mostly going to echo what I already said but.. since this thread has been re-opened I may as well post!

    I think the neo schools are beyond needed for Istaria as it sits.

    People seem to treat certain schools as just schools only to be taken as an offschool for a few masterables and nothing else.. In my opinion, and I strongly emphasize that qualifier, that's a school that fails. Every school should be feasible as a primary school, hands down - again, in my opinion. I see a lot of folks saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it," but I think monks are broke if nobody *ever* plays one except to take a few masterables then ignore it completely. I do realize Istaria is heavily multiclass based, but that still shouldn't mean someone can't just play a monk-type character if they want! It should be viable, even if the crowd that levels to 100 via crafting first to wear t6 cloth at level 1 warrior wouldn't dream of playing it (a quirk of Istaria that I always felt was kinda out of whack and a bit more min/max system abuse than by the actual spirit of the design). Not everyone *wants* to have to play warrior to 100 or cleric/healer to 100 or whatever else, and frankly I don't think they should have to.

    I feel as those the resistance to change may result in those who use that school for certain abilities and don't want it to change, rather than because they play and enjoy it primarily. That said, simply releasing them alongside the existing schools as an either-or deal seems ideal (maybe a quest/lore theme of a split in theology within the monks, for example.. Different paths to try and attain a similar goal. Mayhaps even just releasing them as a different "school" altogether? IE instead of Neo-Monk/FD/Spiritist/etc., leave the ones that exist as they are and mix it up! Neo-monk could be a Pugilist(and it's elemental variations), neo-druid could be Hierophant, neo-spiritist could be Animancer (just off the top of my head, anyways.)

    As for mana, well.. I think 'mana' in the traditional sense would be a bit odd in Istaria but, as I remember from briefly toying with one of the neos, it wasn't exactly "mana" anyways. That said, I think currencies for abilities, in whatever form, are good. Conjurer essentially revolves around that theme, having to pick and choose rather than just milk cooldowns. It creates interesting choices - there's a fine line between over-micromanaging and not, but I think at least a few schools could really use some unique mechanics.

    Personally I think the spiritist idea sounds coolest - spiritist is a neat class in general, but indeed, is just a spirit mage.. Something built around not just draining essence but then utilizing it to fuel abilities and stuff is extremely neat in my opinion, it's a strong aesthetic and a perfect 'feel,' which I think is paramount to a class being neat and fun. Shooting nifty looking spirit bolts with an unusual damage type is cool as is, but it really could go much further and I'd love to see it!

    And that's the crux of the issue with a handful of classes in Istaria.. They don't have a 'feel' that's unique enough. Monks having neat combos, spiritists actually draining and channeling life force, etc. is all a unique 'feel' thing that sets them apart and would possibly drive folks to play them as a primary rather than just relegated to whatever off-school masterables are worth bothering with. If you look at spearman vs crossbowman vs other melees the similarities are extremely predictable and apparent, there's nothing to just really set them apart.. Even KNOC falls into that category, as Amon addressed in the recent thread asking about thoughts there.. And that's why they're kinda boring. Their aesthetic is different, sure, but the feel just isn't there. Spearmen gets a couple little spear-y abilities, but nothing to truly push it apart; same with the others.

    I do understand the fear for change, so I feel that simply adding some alternatives along with the present ones would be the best route, it's a win win. If someone likes something as it is, they can still do it; if they have some school just for a few masterables then great, nothing is lost. On the flip side if someone thinks it's way boring, they have a potentially more interesting and appealing option! I thought the neo monk was a lot more versatile, interesting, and active when I played it forever ago on blight, and a lot more 'monk' feeling than a few chain attacks and auto-attacks.

  17. #37

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Well, funny thing that I came here armed with arguments and opinions and I find that Losian has said everything I wanted to say.

    The crux of my opinion stems around the fact that I am one of those players who doesn't want to have to level warrior/cleric up to 100 before stepping into other classes. I want to play and multi-class the classes I like to play. Istaria is by far the best fantasy MMO that I have ever played, however (as Losian beat me to the punch) I think that a refresher of old classes or new classes in general to allow for more plausible to play single classes from 1-100 without HAVING to go into some other "necessary" classes.

    Plus, as Losian said as well, many classes are really only leveled to get their masterables and not to actually play the classes in question. If there is the possibility of changing that mindset just a little, and making classes unique and actually viable to play then I think we should move in that direction as fervently as possible.

    Anyway, if you want to know more about how I feel just read Losian's post before mine. All my points are in there.

    -Quiiliitiila

  18. #38

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Quiiliitiila View Post
    Well, funny thing that I came here armed with arguments and opinions and I find that Losian has said everything I wanted to say.

    The crux of my opinion stems around the fact that I am one of those players who doesn't want to have to level warrior/cleric up to 100 before stepping into other classes. I want to play and multi-class the classes I like to play. Istaria is by far the best fantasy MMO that I have ever played, however (as Losian beat me to the punch) I think that a refresher of old classes or new classes in general to allow for more plausible to play single classes from 1-100 without HAVING to go into some other "necessary" classes.

    Plus, as Losian said as well, many classes are really only leveled to get their masterables and not to actually play the classes in question. If there is the possibility of changing that mindset just a little, and making classes unique and actually viable to play then I think we should move in that direction as fervently as possible.

    Anyway, if you want to know more about how I feel just read Losian's post before mine. All my points are in there.

    -Quiiliitiila
    Too kind! I appreciate the echo of my sentiments - I know that some people *like* the multiclassing aspect and don't mind at all some schools being totally useful only as a "passives only" kinda thing, and there's no need to step on their toes, but I also think those folks who *really* want to primarily play a monk or some other arguably underwhelming school, it should be viable!

  19. #39

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Losian View Post
    Too kind! I appreciate the echo of my sentiments - I know that some people *like* the multiclassing aspect and don't mind at all some schools being totally useful only as a "passives only" kinda thing, and there's no need to step on their toes, but I also think those folks who *really* want to primarily play a monk or some other arguably underwhelming school, it should be viable!
    Ok as a thought to this how about schools such as the neo's that do come across as particularly underwhelming and certainly Monk.. perhaps grant them a passive nonmasterable boost to their schools main methods of combat.. and i would further this with a DPS boost because i think most will agree that whilst they may be dex monkeys they are certainly lacking in the oomph...

    so heres my thought

    20 + 50 to unarmed and energy style appropriate to the neo (monk gets a dps boost whilst unarmed or with wraps )+5
    60 bonus increases to + 75 monk dps increases to +10
    100 bonus increases to + 100 monk increases to +15

    YES I know these are quite big boosts but i think that the neo classes really deserve them as they are very much leveled purely for the materables and this might atleast make them viable as main classes although i know it will leave them short of the likes of the berzerker :)

  20. #40

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Neo Schools

    Seems like the illyist you talked to to join the neo schools are gone?????????
    Abbie: 100 Sorcerer, 100 Wizard, 100 Conjurer, 100 Chaos Warrior

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