Dragons and their Roles

[LOVWYRM]

great input, Phillip.
This has to be said/explained!! Thank you.

When I say, that drags should not be stronger (as long as challenges do not change) I also considered, like Galde said before,
that additional schools for dragons would and should mean, that other things had to be nerfed.
To make it consistent to biped multi classing.
Melee attacks have to be nerfed. Certain abilities should not be available. A dragon healer/wizard/druid/mage aso should only be allowed to wear approppriate scales/claws.
Some dragons will be stronger then than others. Some dragons then will be of more use for group fights like others.
Do dragons really want that?

Istaria needs dragons as tanks and powerful fighters.
There are enough bipeds to provide the hunts with the other schools.
If there should be a need for that.
Like Phillips said:
Dragons and healers- not more necessary for most of the challenges.

Dragon multi-classing might bring a lot of probs with the rites:
When should a multi-class dragon be allowed to make RoP/ARoP?
Dragon players tend to be impatient with that.
And I doubt that a dragon Healer/sorcerer is able to face the challenges of RoPs.

my facit:
I do not support the idea of dragon multiclaasing for several reasons:
First of all: It would disturb game balance and make my biped friends loose their jobs. There are already too much challenges ingame that need more dragons than bipeds to succeed (Queen, bosses certain questlines).
Making dragons that autarkic from biped help will stop interactions among the players. We already have more dragon than biped players.
Dragon school has enough wonderful features, giving them multiclassing too
will make "Istaria- Chronicles of the Gifted" to "Istaria-World of Dragons".

[Galdethriel]

Can't fault anything you've said, Phillip, but this development team is too happy to put things out and miss things out just because they're too hard or take too much work. If I was going to be completely honest, this game could be a very popular, very fun game that would make them money instead of floundering about on the edge of the internet if only someone seriously worked up the guts to do something. That's just my thoughts though.

I do not support the idea of dragon multiclaasing for several reasons:
First of all: It would disturb game balance and make my biped friends loose their jobs. There are already too much challenges ingame that need more dragons than bipeds to succeed (Queen, bosses certain questlines).

Then doesn't that say that bipeds need to be buffed more than anything?

Making dragons that autarkic from biped help will stop interactions among the players. We already have more dragon than biped players.

Firstly, it wouldn't stop interaction. We all know that. I'm pretty sure the players are friendly enough that they would still be happy to help each other and work together. But why can't a Dragon heal a Biped instead? Why can't a Biped tank for a Dragon mage? Letting all the races have a taste of each of the key roles will make different combinations possible, and if they decided they wanted to balance the two 'halves' out too, well hey, suddenly we can actually help each other out a lot more.

Dragon school has enough wonderful features, giving them multiclassing too
will make "Istaria- Chronicles of the Gifted" to "Istaria-World of Dragons".

It already is "Istaria-World of Dragons" though. They must have known when they were making the game that it would be that way. And it only became worse when they became obsessed with making Dragons different but completely ignored the fact that Sslik should not be Humans with a model switch, playing a Dryad should not be exactly the same as playing a Half-Giant, etc. And I think the game suffers for it too.

Oh and, as I've said before, you would not get Dragon School AND multiclassing. It's not adding on more abilities, it's exchanging your abilities for different ones.

In a wierd way, everyone looses out. On one side of the spectrum you have the Bipeds, a group of races so dull and interchangable they're just called 'the Bipeds', who have to do an insane ton of grinding to get a decent amount of power and yet are the only ones who actually get to play the three big roles and customize their characters at all. Then you have the Dragons, who start off pathetic, then become uber, then become pathetic again, who have to do a lot less grinding on a single class but are doomed to forever just be DPS because it's the only way to force a player to roll a Biped instead.

I dunno about you guys but I'd rather they just fleshed out the Bipeds (race-specific schools perhaps?), buffed their exp gain to hell, gave them some uniqueness to make them cool to play, and split the Dragon class into three seperate classes to provide them with the three roles too.

~Galde

[AmonGwareth]

Can't fault anything you've said, Phillip, but this development team is too happy to put things out and miss things out just because they're too hard or take too much work. If I was going to be completely honest, this game could be a very popular, very fun game that would make them money instead of floundering about on the edge of the internet if only someone seriously worked up the guts to do something. That's just my thoughts though.

I think perhaps you mistake too-hard or too-much-work for extreme caution. Big changes that alter the way players play the game invariably cause people to get upset and have the potential to lose us customers, something as a very small game we can't exactly afford to do if the loss is very great. Dragons are even more delicate because they make up over half the population.

In addition, a lot of the content updates we do take a LOT of work and can be very hard. Dralnok's Doom, Dalimond Peninsula, the Loot Revamp and others were all quite difficult to implement and took a LOT of work by the entire team to make happen. So, sometimes it isn't necessarily avoidance of work or difficulty that makes us avoid projects, but rather a simple fact of time availability and priorities.

I think Philip explained it perfectly well. To add more schools for Dragons on the adventurer side we would need to alter the existing Dragon school and, as Lov said, address many other aspects of Dragon play as well. Its a pretty safe bet that a majority of players would not want their existing style of play altered.

[Phillip]

Galde, the dev team thus far avoided disaster with their current end result of dragon design. Yeah it's a bit extreme DPS but, it kinda goes with looking at that big thing full of muscle. What did you expect? It makes sense. New players can relate, and there's an understanding of what's at the end of the road before getting far into the game itself. This is the luxury dragon players did not have, for years. They have that now and it's a good thing.

You can't ask for too much however. It's the only race that is in its own class, quest progression and flight. The most versatile within one single school and possibly the most important race in Istaria right now.

[Galdethriel]

I think Philip explained it perfectly well. To add more schools for Dragons on the adventurer side we would need to alter the existing Dragon school and, as Lov said, address many other aspects of Dragon play as well. Its a pretty safe bet that a majority of players would not want their existing style of play altered.

I know what you're saying, but I still think it could be done without too much upheaval of Dragon Adventurer, especially if the new classes weren't able to multiclass. And I can't speak for everyone else, but I personally would welcome the change that would let me be different from every other Dragon out there. And I KNOW there are people out there that would adore the chance to at least heal on a Dragon rather than be forced to roll a Biped and level who knows how many underpowered classes. Please just consider asking the players. Even if they didn't want to be healers or tanks and are happy with their solid DPS, I don't think it would do any harm for the option to be there for players who might want to take it up.

Galde, the dev team thus far avoided disaster with their current end result of dragon design. Yeah it's a bit extreme DPS but, it kinda goes with looking at that big thing full of muscle. What did you expect?

If I understand it right, Dragons are also the masters of the purest form of magic. So having all three roles makes sense to me too.

You can't ask for too much however. It's the only race that is in its own class, quest progression and flight. The most versatile within one single school and possibly the most important race in Istaria right now.

Dragons are the only fleshed-out race (seriously, that might be its own thread in a minute. Flesh out the Bipeds. It needs to be done XD ) but it's a jack-of-all-trades at best with one viable role: DPS. Yes, it's versatile, but it's not viable to do anything but DPS, really. Dragons have nothing else to contribute. I would be happy to see Bipeds be given the raw power of a Dragon if I could just contribute something other than DPS, and I don't think I'm the only person to think this way.

~Galde

[peladon]

Elders and wise


My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost or found, as suits the seeker.

Did ye ever hear tell of the Thunder and Lightning? The Fool and the Fair? Well and all. Those words have been spoken often. That Sonea be FFair, few question. And if any do, fewer twice . And that the Fool be what that one is? Well, that be a tale and a tale, and a riddle indeed.

But the Thunder? And the Lightning? Well and all, there is a tale to that too, and those names were found long ago, by Saritova. And it's no short tale, and there were many fallen fire-gem walkers who might speak of it, were they not dead and past any speaking at all :-). But this I would say, and I was there. That even in those days long past and those candles long since turned to wax, I would not say that draku cannot, or could not, take the blows of the foe. Of many foe indeed, and those foe fall. And I am but the least of draku .

The matter of draku, and whether they should know some manner of those schools of war or craft that two legs do is one oft spoken, oft discussed - and thus far oft set aside. For draku are not two legs, and two legs are not draku. But as others have said, our kind can stand to many Foe, and stand their part. That they must do it in some different manner from others? Well, that be the way of things when one is indeed different. That there be things we may not do that two legs can, in war or craft? Aye indeed.

But the Thunder and the Lightning have danced a dance or two. And each hath also danced alone. And in all my waking, in all my days, I have found no ill of my nature in that dancing. But if others see those matters else and different, that also is theirs to do. For as each eye sees it, so let it be to that sight.

My words are but the whisper of a forgotten wind. Let them be lost or found, as suits the seeker.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker
Nobody and Nothing ever, save The Five do Feast
A Fool that walks among the Wise

[AmonGwareth]

All things being equal (meaning nobody would get upset at a change) I'd totally go for something like Adventurer->Explorer (or something for Adult Dragons)->Conqueror/Primalist schools for Ancients.

With regards to the beta schools, they were actually duplicates of biped schools. Dragon Druid was a copy of a biped's Druid school, etc. Kind of dull and that was why they were removed. Unfortunately new ones were pushed in at the last moment and without testing or much planning.

Over the years we've definitely wanted to do something with it, but we never felt we were in a place where we could afford to risk it. And so here we are.

[Shian]

All things being equal (meaning nobody would get upset at a change) I'd totally go for something like Adventurer->Explorer (or something for Adult Dragons)->Conqueror/Primalist schools for Ancients.

It is an interesting compromise between not upsetting the current balance of leveling and adding new classes for the players that want to do more.

This is a neat idea. By adding the class change very slowly over the growth of the dragon it would mean the current class wouldn't change much until one hits end game- about the time where dragons notice that there is little left to do other than roll another toon and pretend there is a whole new class to take.

There's an idea that would be 'wishes and horses'. If you're worried about upsetting current players, why not make a different class of dragon and that's it. If players want the other class, roll a new toon with the class so dragons remain single class spec'd. It wouldn't conflict with current dragons so no reason for old players to get upset and adds a new class for those so tired of the single roll, they'll grind up a new toon to get it.

Ehhh.... that sounded better in my head. -_-

[Akrion]

Amon, it may wind up being a lot of work for nothing, but what if you made 'beta dragons' on blight? A new race, so to speak, one could create separate from normal dragons that follow a different design scheme. This way you could make changes and tweeks to how you, as the development team, would like to see Dragons become compared to what they are now and judge the response from players without making the changes official. If the response seems to be positive, then perhaps changes could be made to shift the Dragon system over to the new one. Otherwise you could make changes here and there, get feedback, etc. and improve on the idea. If in the end it doesn't really work out the project can be scrapped.

It may be really iffy for you guys as I have a limited idea on how much work would be required to achieve something like this, and to have that work potentially scrapped in the end isn't very appealing but it's something you guys could work on over time, give it some attention here and there but not make it a primary goal. Sort of like the PVP arena, I guess. A project that's worked with on the side. If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but if it does then over time you may find yourselves able to finally replace the current system for a new one that you guys are more proud of.

[Phillip]

Shian and Akrion are onto something good.

[Galdethriel]

That's exactly what I've been trying to say! XD

I really think this could be done right and add a lot to Dragons (and ease the complaints about Dragons versus Bipeds a little, amirite?). It would be a change I'd welcome. A Dragon healer... I'd roll a new toon for that. Definitely.

~Galde

[Phillip]

Just don't make the new dragon race so fat.

[AmonGwareth]

Alright, I'll run with this idea. Say we did introduce a "new" line of Dragon schools that only new characters could get. Off the top of my head here are some thoughts.

Quests: These would either go away or be spread out across multiple schools. Otherwise the power curve would remain as it is, quite steep.

Schools:
Hatchling - Name of the school, joined on Skalkaar
Current skill gain rate.
Breath of Fire II, III
Must reach level 90 to begin Rite of Passage.

Adult - Name of the school, join AFTER Rite of Passage
Gains DragonBreath at 11/lvl and Armor skill at 8/lvl
Breath of Ice, Lightning, Flame Burst
Gains an Improved Silver Strike
Must reach level 90 to begin Ancient Rite of Passage.

Conquerer - Melee-focused school, join AFTER Ancient Rite of Passage
Gains Tooth&Claw at 11/lvl
Gains Gold Rage
Can Learn Drain Strike
Breath of Acid

Primalist - Melee-focused school, join AFTER Ancient Rite of Passage
Gains Primal at 11/lvl
Gains Gold Burst
Can Learn Drain Bolt
Gains a Primal Breath of some sort

[Thicklesip]

Schools:
Hatchling - Name of the school, joined on Skalkaar
Must reach level 90 to begin Rite of Passage.

Adult - Name of the school, join AFTER Rite of Passage
Must reach level 90 to begin Ancient Rite of Passage.

Primalist - Melee-focused school, join AFTER Ancient Rite of Passage

Are the 90/90 reqs to (a)RoP typos, or are you just horribly tired of level 30 adults? Ditto assuming the Primalist bit is a typo!


That would actually be very interesting to play around with. I'd like to see more details about your expectations for the average Dragon2's "life", but as a very rough thumbnail of how this could go I'm intrigued.

[Galdethriel]

That looks interesting, but what about the other roles? ;_;

Tank?

Healer?

Something?

~Galde

[Phillip]

Mmm...currently, a 10-20 schooler with the best gear can't come near draggie Tank/DPS by a long shot. That's a lot of schools.

Amon make them work. At least 10 schools worth, XP penalty and all. Lazy bastards.

[Shian]

Regular dragon adventure has Tank and DPS roles built in if you play with extreme TP sorting.

Alright, I'll run with this idea. Say we did introduce a "new" line of Dragon schools that only new characters could get. Off the top of my head here are some thoughts.

If you're running with new characters, why not keep this in line with lore and have them obtained at Adult instead of Ancient?

Primalists would get the equivalent of gold rage, but there is still the imbalance in spells to deal with.
Even with 1500 primal, any spell I cast is significantly weaker than just using ravage. And that's with no points spent in TNC, so something would have to be wired differently to make putting points in primal worth it.

Would tweaking this affect all spells or just dragon spells? 'Cause the latter would be a mess ._.

[Chasing]

Alright, I'll run with this idea. Say we did introduce a "new" line of Dragon schools that only new characters could get. Off the top of my head here are some thoughts.

Quests: These would either go away or be spread out across multiple schools. Otherwise the power curve would remain as it is, quite steep.

Schools:
Hatchling - Name of the school, joined on Skalkaar
Current skill gain rate.
Breath of Fire II, III
Must reach level 90 to begin Rite of Passage.

Adult - Name of the school, join AFTER Rite of Passage
Gains DragonBreath at 11/lvl and Armor skill at 8/lvl
Breath of Ice, Lightning, Flame Burst
Gains an Improved Silver Strike
Must reach level 90 to begin Ancient Rite of Passage.

Conquerer - Melee-focused school, join AFTER Ancient Rite of Passage
Gains Tooth&Claw at 11/lvl
Gains Gold Rage
Can Learn Drain Strike
Breath of Acid

Primalist - Melee-focused school, join AFTER Ancient Rite of Passage
Gains Primal at 11/lvl
Gains Gold Burst
Can Learn Drain Bolt
Gains a Primal Breath of some sort

Ohh I like this idea

[Xepher]

I'm liking the ideas proposed here, and I do feel Dragons should have a caster and healer-oriented sub-class of some sort for the sake of diversity.

However, if this would only pertain to "new" dragons, what about those that exist already? What would happen to them? Could those already adult or ancient be given a quest of some sort to choose their class?

I'm a tad bit confused is all, but otherwise I'm supportive of this.

[Sigvard]

I, oddly, quite like the way things are with dragons! Then again, this is coming from someone who's never played a biped before.

Some of the ideas sound quite interesting, regardless! It could make leveling a new character a more different experience each time with more classes.