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Thread: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

  1. #21

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Oh god, do I dip into this? Or do I keep my paws out of it? Such an interesting discussion, but one full of well... those opinions We all go 'em, nuthin's wrong with any of 'em! With that said, do understand the following is my view point as a designer and a player.

    <Novel Incoming!>

    Did SW:ToR ever advertise itself as a sandbox? I hope not, because it certainly is not. However, for the style of game it is TRYING to be, it's very good at it. I currently enjoy it more than WoW. This impressed me at least.

    Something it confirms for me? Heavy dialog and story lines DO NOT belong in a multiplayer environment. They get in the way, and are a bother for multiplayer. I enjoy SW:ToR, solo. I in fact, do not see why I pay 15 dollars a month for what to me, is basically a single player game with MMO mechanics rather than solid and interesting mechanics. Any groups I get into, kicks me because I want to listen to the dialog I haven't heard yet. [They've all heard it!] Or they whine at me a lot for listening and slowing them all down. I've always believed heavy dialog and story lines as such do NOT belong in MMO's, or they should at the very least be ENTIRELY optional things you can do at your own leisure. You can't avoid it in SW:ToR because it's part of your progression.

    My ideal MMO worlds are spaces where I can do as I feel. Where I tell my own story, and have a world to play in for it. I can build my space, create a home, and freely go on adventures with friends with our own goals and purpose. EVE does this very well, and allows the players to create the content and their fun extremely well. It may not be the type of content YOU like, but many people read the user stories of EVE and are absolutely in love with what you can do in it [ It's just too bad it's so convoluted and you do need a degree in spread sheets and rocket science to play I can make fun of it! I have 3 accounts! >..> ] My coworkers and I recently recreated "Battlestar Galactica" within EVE. We took an Orca [Battlestar ship kinda, with no guns =P] and a bunch of small support ships, and wandered aimlessly from one wormhole to the next, until we popped out somewhere.

    Is SW:ToR the death of sandbox? Definitely not, it didn't even try. If anything, SW:ToR was an experiment of story telling within an MMO space. They just forgot the "Multiplayer" part of it and didn't design with that in mind.

    There are a lot of issues why we likely won't see a good sandbox for a while though.

    MMO's are now main stream since WoW has hit the deck. Gaming companies have this nasty habit of trying to jump on the bandwagon after it has left. So they try and reinvent the wheel that is WoW, with their own twist, and hope it takes off. Much like Modern Warfare is to most shooters, and Battlefield is to most team based online shooters. We start seeing less innovations from the big companies and must rely on indy games to do that in these genres.

    This leads to another problem. MMO's are very expensive to create currently. It takes a lot of people to work on one to make it happen in WoW grade of polish. So the indy guys can't really do it yet, because...

    Those "investors" with the money to make our little designer dreams come true, they don't want to hear your unique and possible block buster hit. It doesn't at all sound like WoW, which they know is a block buster hit. So they're less interested in funding that sort of thing. It's a risk. "What? You want us to fund a crappy world of cubes with 16 by 16 textures on them. Players can gather these various cubes and turn them into stuff? A construction sim? NO ONE would pay for that! EVER!" Notch's paypal account gets shut down often because they think he's running an illegal money operation... when really, a lot of people love his game, and buy it!

    Now to give hope!

    There are innovators. Someone WILL get the smarts to build a proper "sandbox" MMO and catch that niche of us who want to play it. It's likely been realized already by several designer types out there in fact! They just need to get it done and put it up somewhere easy for the public to access, and prove it's possible. That way those bigger companies may finally wisen up and say "Oh, hey, we should give this a try!" I know people will probably stab me for saying this but... I'm looking forward to Blizzard's "Titan" project. I know people hate Blizzard, but they have the time, and money to risk these things.

    Anyhow, hope this was fun for someone to read

  2. #22

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhalin View Post
    Each expansion has had a world event tied to it.

    Burning Crusade: I didn't see this one as I wasn't high enough level at the time, but I heard it had to do with fighting demons down near the Dark Portal and stuff.

    Wrath of the Lich King: Oh God, the zombie invasion. LOL. The first part of that was pure chaos, though many players used it as a giant griefing tool. Even after the plague part of it was taken out, it was still a neat invasion, as flying necropoli would spawn at random points through the world and you had to fight lots of undead and you'd get rewards for doing it.

    Cataclysm: The elemental attacks on the cities. Nice when they actually worked well, but a lot of times they bugged up. Meh. Also, special bosses which dropped decent (at the time) gear.

    And it sounds like there'll be events to come with the next expansion, too! Though these will likely be more PvP-oriented sadly.. not much into PvP myself, but meh.
    Yes, they had WORLD EVENTS.

    They did not have LIVE world events

    To me those are totally two different things.

    A lot of games pull off world events - either seasonally or pre-an-expansion. These are scripted events that, regardless of what the people on the server are doing or not doing - have a set script. They will progress ABC ways and end on XYZ date. Even if totally ignored, the world events will usually not overly effect gameplay too much (some possibly minor annoyances but thats it) and will come to an end in the scripted way on the scripted date.

    But "Live" World Events - thats something that, IMO, only small niche-games can pull off successfully. When WoW attempted to do something more open ended at the opening of the AQ Gates - only about 1% (if that) of the population actually got to SEE the actual "event" at the end. Both because 1-only one person could activate it and turn in the final item for an entire server and 2-when too many people logged in for the final event the servers crashed and even when they stayed up it was a slide-show. I think on my server the final-event of the AQ Gates happened at like 2 am my time...

    And that was the last one in WoW.

    EQII attempted a similiar live event per server last year - and it was a failure for other reasons. Devs underestimated the speed at which players would "complete" the tasks to finish the event adn as a result the entire event, for any of the populated servers, lasted like less than 72 hours total. So they ended up going back, rolling back those servers to a 50% build mark at most and nerfed the speed at which people could progress in order to allow more subscribers the opportunity to experience it.

    So yea, "live" events don't work very well with even moderately-large populations (which at this point EQII is considered niche at Im thinking under 100K and it STILL didnt work..).

    But regular scripted World Events - those are fine. But not the same.
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  3. #23

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    EVE pulls off live events

    Their dev's log on, organize fleets, and get things moving with out telling no one! And it gets out, people form up and tackle them!

    Their systems come to a crawl though when such things start up =P

  4. #24

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    PS...

    Shian, SoR (now just Ryzom) is still alive and kicking. It's had it's share of troubles with ownership but now seems to be at rest with a small dedicated group of worker bees at the helm.

    Now that sounds a bit familiar.
    It is better to regret something you have done, than something you haven't done.

  5. #25

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    yeah most MMO's nowadays i hate. Eve online is the latest one that i love. i'm usually sticking to FPSes and other singleplayers, and Team Fortress 2.

  6. #26

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Actually, SWTOR does not and never has advertised itself as a sandbox. Now that I think about it, every single time someone asks on the forums if swtor is a sandbox-type game, the devs would reply: "This game is not, nor has it ever been a sandbox. This game is more like a theme park."

    As for the gameplay itself, I got to play beta just before launch, and I have to say I rather like it so far. The voice-over is excellent, despite the annoying lag I had on my computer, the combat is fun (no auto-attack), the dioluage options and light/dark choices are a very interesting touch and the stories and what really have me hooked on this game. It's like watching a movie, even when you have to go kill so-many so-and-sos. lol

    I played a Smuggler and got as far as getting my ship, and I was laughing for a good deal of the time because it was funny. It reminded me of Han Solo and his crazy antics, which is good, because that's what the devs had in mind.

    I still love Istaria though!

    My first venture into Istaria fanfiction: link and my other fanfics: link and artwork: link

  7. #27
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    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    SWTOR had a free trail this weekend so I foolishly decided to try it...
    Took me well over 15 hours to download the client in 2 parts spread out over 2 days (I need to sleep as well)... First part came at 6-7 gb and the second was well over 11gb which after install became 21gb...
    By the time I had the game installed and set up I only had a few hours left.

    First impression were ok I guess. The graphics are Ok and the quests seem to look well made.
    My impression just before trail ended (only lvl 6) was that my character seemed a bit overpowered against regular mobs my level. Even a lvl 6 elite quest mob went down while I was lvl 5. Which seems a bit lame.

    At the moment I am in quite a doubt if I should pay and keep playing... Liked SWG back in the days... Or just write it of as a game like Star Trek Online... Probably easy and fast leveling with a high probability of getting bored after max 1 or 2 months.
    Rvlion- LvL 100:100:100 - 59.3M - Lunus Ancient
    Gallinthus- LvL 100:42:41 - 6.9M - Hatchling
    Lohasbrand– LvL 4:3:0 – 1.0M - Hatchling
    Sslion- LvL 25 Mage, 25 Warrior, 10 Cleric, 6 Druid, 6 Monk and a few Craft Schools

  8. #28

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Ya.. it does seem like lower lvl chars are OP a bit.. but after you hit lvl 10, it starts, nearly forcing you, to quest with other peeps. Least it did in Beta. I didn't think it warranted spending $15 a month to play a game with Light Sabres... so, I haven't DL'd it... As it is, if it is 21GB DL, that would be 3 days of constant DLing with my crappy ISP, so, I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon either.
    Elated that HZ is no longer in the hands of the Infidels.

    Now.. I may have to split my time between 2 games... CS:S and HZ...

  9. #29

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Well since the PVE part is always meant to have at least your companion to join you; the idea is that..well..you are powerful. So taking on groups of mobs is the "norm" rather than the exception.

    I mean if you've got a game of Jedi and Sith Masters then the other clases have to hold up. According to lore, Force users are always strong and oober.

    So unlike other games - running around kiling 1-2 mobs at a time really doesn't work for "hey I'm a oober awesome Sith lord with electricity shooting out of my fingers at my will!" so isntead they ramp it up and have you regularly killing 3-5 mobs and that represents a typical "One on one" style of fighting for most other MMOS.

    And since you have a companion (which you would get after completing the starter area DB) even more reason to be killing groups of mobs at a time instead of just one or two.

    But you are less OP as you level and things get a bit harder. They gotta rake you in at the start of course .

    Also in SW:TOR Elite is not the "top" mob you can face. There's a rank above that, "Champion" which most classes would have great difficulty (if not impossible at level) to take down solo+companion and MOST of the time you only see those in the Heroic quests. I think there is a rank above CHampion as well but that's probably just for world bosses out in the zones for full +4/+8.

    So elites aren't really like in WoW or other MMOS where its the top level of mob. That's Champion.

    But no you do not have to quest with other peeps after 10; I have soloed all the way so far to level 34 and I have guildies who have definitley soloed to 50 (solo+companion of course as the game is intended). The only reason you would need to group up is if you are doing the Heroic quests at level (not necessary to progress at all, I've skipped most of them and gone back later on to solo them) or of course the "dungeons".

    However, DB - having played STO I can tell you its much miuch better than that game *lol* but it is NOT SWG. It is themepark; in fact I would argue even more "on the rails" than WoW. It is easy and fast leveling (don't look at me..I'm a slow compeltionist leveler...I know peple who got to end game in 3-4 weeks at most. I take my time, do every single quest I can do on a planet before leaving, RP, etc.).

    And the end game is...well end game. You can pvp or you can run various dungeon or raid modes. Same as 99.9% of the rest of the MMOS out there. So you're choice how fast you want to get there =D.

    But if you are looking for sandboxy - move on. There's almost nothing sandboxy about this game currently. Extremely "rail-y".

    I can give you a free 7 day; you'd have to roll up on a new account but you wouldn't have to re/dl it so you could get the full starter experience. I don't thikn you can level past 20 on the free 7 day but its an option if you want to see a bit more of the world before deciding.

    Now if you are a SW nut you'll probably love it; everyone I know who was a SW nut has loved it; those of us who are more "eh its cool and all" type of SW Fans have..mixed feelings.

    Its certainly no WoW killer *chuckles* but I thikn WoW will be the only WoW killer.

    Me..I'm trying hard not to get exicted about Secret World... More sandboxy, definitely. (But not total sandboxy at all, but more than SW:TOR, WOW and most of the current crop of MMOS)
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    After posting this and waiting for one or two days thinking about buying the game I took the chance.
    What annoyed me at first is that I could not start a subscription without buying the game for 55 euro. I had already downloaded and installed the game for crying out loud.

    Anyway Frith-Rae I tend to be like you, finishing every regular quest before proceding to the next planet.

    After only several days I went from lvl 1 to lvl 23, got a 2nd a lot more usefull companion and emptied Dromund Kaas, Korriban and Balmorra (not counting heroics and group quests).

    At least the game in general has a high replayability due to having 4 classes per faction, but leveling seems very fast.
    Rvlion- LvL 100:100:100 - 59.3M - Lunus Ancient
    Gallinthus- LvL 100:42:41 - 6.9M - Hatchling
    Lohasbrand– LvL 4:3:0 – 1.0M - Hatchling
    Sslion- LvL 25 Mage, 25 Warrior, 10 Cleric, 6 Druid, 6 Monk and a few Craft Schools

  11. #31

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Heh, the 55 euro isn't for the physical property, you're paying for the cost to produce the game. The production cost, really. That shouldn't be annoying, that's normal? It's like steam... You pay 50 dollars for the game whether you buy it there or in the store. You're paying production cost. Subscription fee pays for updates, constant patching, customer service, and server maintenance... basically.

  12. #32

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chioxin View Post
    Heh, the 55 euro isn't for the physical property, you're paying for the cost to produce the game. The production cost, really. That shouldn't be annoying, that's normal? It's like steam... You pay 50 dollars for the game whether you buy it there or in the store. You're paying production cost. Subscription fee pays for updates, constant patching, customer service, and server maintenance... basically.
    that's the excuse people come up with trying to justify paying for a game twice. that's all it is. an excuse. game companies recoup losses on the first few months of Subscription fees. take 15 dollars times the amount of active accounts. boom, recouped losses.

    screw. that.

    i AM NOT double paying for a game. i absolutely refuse to. i shouldn't have to buy the game, and then have to PAY to play it. i can use more colorful words here, but i can't, so it has to stay like this. not double paying ever ever ever ever ever.

  13. #33

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    You didn't double pay for Hz? *chuckles*

    It is the standard; unless its f2p or has been out long enough for a couple of expansiosn to hit and then you are likely to get bundles where one or more parts of the game are free *shrugs*

    as for replayability *shrugs at it* its not the variety of classes that makes me *shudder*; its the lack of alternate choices in leveling up. I can't stand not having ANY variation in leveling and unforutnatley SW:TOR is so railed that you have no options to do anything for any of your clases but the same thing; outside of the class specific quest.

    So yea..one of my dislikes about it.
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  14. #34

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    no i didn't actually. free download. had a chance to buy the box, for collector purposes... but i didn't for some reason.

  15. #35

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Which means you started late Romirez. You decided to wait until the game had paid for itself and went F2P, and that's fair enough honestly! I wonder if HZ even ever paid for itself... at all... It's been around long enough that it must have.

    Where are you getting your information that these games make their money back in the first few months of release? WoW? yes... WoW is a freaking mutant amongst most MMO's and I'll gladly admit they're greedy as hell [And yet make fantastic polished game I'm willing to pay for!] I'm appalled at what it takes to get into that game as a new player.

    SW:ToR? They're not going to make it back on Box Sales, and I'm curious if they'll even make it back on monthly fees. Heh, and projects I've been on... didn't make it back. There's a reason why there are lay offs and there are reasons a lot of new MMO developers die off. They didn't make back their money or are barely surviving on the community they did make.

    The crew these MMO's employ after that, need to get paid. The QA, the developers, coders, artist. We'd like to get paid thanks, and we already get paid "pennies" compared to what we're probably worth... and it may also be helping to fund the next game we make, the server structure and its upgrades/maintenance, maintaining the tools to add further content to the game, the bandwidth required to keep it running at a good clip for all the users.

    Developing an MMO is a HUGE resource hog [it shouldn't be, but it is.]

    You're right! We don't just build these games to break even and make people happy. We want to make money too, we want to keep our jobs, and we want to work on the next awesome project.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    Which is fine in theory, but you can't exactly 'beat' an MMO...
    In my opinion, since MMOs are "forever" (at least the good ones are) People set their own goals. Be it short-term or very long-term. That's the sign of a good game that will let someone achieve what they want to and still have an interest in the core of the game.

    Some players play simply to cause the displeasure of other players.. while still others will only ever play a healing class and help folks. Everyone is different. If you can get out of a game whatever your goal is, then it's a success to that person.

    But that's just how I see it.
    Mensarian state of mind: Being without one completely!

  17. #37

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Its funny how the era of "f2p" has led to the idea that we are somehow entitled to "free" games from the get go. Forgetting the millions and millions and millions of dollars that no you cannot make back in the first few months; unless you're a juggernaut.

    On top of that, dev companies get very little from box sales - most of that goes tot he publisher.

    You knwo what pisses *me* Off - digital download games that cost the same as they do when you get a physical box. No reason for that one but $$...if I don't get a physical CD, Box, and Booklet..why is it costing me more?

    ANd thats' why I won't buy digital downloads of new games; I go and get what I pay for..thank you very much =D.
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  18. #38

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Warcraft = hit its peak at TBC - despite ridiculous sales of WOLTK on release. It's only a downward spiral from now but it'll be gradual for a little while yet.

    SWTOR = Pretty smart and well designed but I didn't find it that great or ground breaking. I imagine it would be fun and a little different to WoW but in the end its pretty much the same repetition.
    It did _not_ up the anty against other MMO's inclusive of Warcraft.

    Istaria is very singular in how it works as is the aging but equally beautiful Anarchy Online. It will appeal to a select audience who want slightly different things from a online hobby. Which you know what, actually makes people treasure it more so than a typical MMO. At least in AO/Istaria you can have beautiful & fun people but also a very charming game.
    Selkan Swiftbeer 18 Scout | 11 Outfitter Human - Chaos
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  19. #39

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Personally, I liked SWG way better then SW:tOR. I would probably still be playing it, if it weren't for the fact that they screwed it all up when they changed the class system. They dumbed it down so much that virtually everyone had the same build, because you couldn't do much of anything else.

    I personally think WoW has been heading in that same direction. They have dumbed down classes so far now it leaves little to the imagination. I am also seeing that the gear ilvls and stats make no sense and are not scaling very well. I understand that they want Higher lvl characters to have higher stats, but when you go from lvl 80 at 30k health, to lvl 85 with 135k health, somethings is kinda off there.
    Elated that HZ is no longer in the hands of the Infidels.

    Now.. I may have to split my time between 2 games... CS:S and HZ...

  20. #40

    Default Re: SWTOR: the death of sandboxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtrick View Post
    Warcraft = hit its peak at TBC - despite ridiculous sales of WOLTK on release. It's only a downward spiral from now but it'll be gradual for a little while yet.
    Yea...10 million (about where its at now) is a pretty long way to decline. Even if sub losses were to stay consistent at the 200K mark or something per quarter (which they kinda leveled off a bit the last two quarters around there) and never go up (which they will with expansion releases and major content patches) - you're still looking at having to lose over 1 million subs a year consistently for the next 9 years before you even get CLOSE to the state of most major "successful" MMORPGS right *now* - f2p or subscription.

    So yea...that's a 15-19 year run at least (with numbers above 1 million)..nothing to be ashamed about =D Hence ye old "death of WoW' crap is just that...crap! And by the time it would get to a "f2p" state, "Titan" would be in full swing anyway so replace one cash cow with another.

    SWTOR = Pretty smart and well designed but I didn't find it that great or ground breaking. I imagine it would be fun and a little different to WoW but in the end its pretty much the same repetition.
    It did _not_ up the anty against other MMO's inclusive of Warcraft.
    Hell SW:TOR is Worse in the repetition game if you ask me. But no..nots not all that different other htan a scifi theme (which is good really for the genre but not remarkably different otherwise than WoW). I think it was more "ground breaking" in proving that you COULD make an MMORPG focused around more involved storylines, with full voice acting - and opening that door up means that other MMORPGS will have to follow to impress. Which is a good thing IMO.

    However, no it is not enough if that's all you are providing that's different. And yea..it is all they are providing that's really different. As I feared all throughout development with the heralded voice-acting. IN a game that touts "story/rp" as its fourth pillar without even some basic emotes existing (no /lay down) or being able to sit in most chairs (something WoW provided from day one lol) ...other parts of the game clearly paid for that $$ into voice acting..:/
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

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