RoP

[AguaRush]

"Rite of Passage
The goal of this change was to ensure that the Rite of Passage quest can be completed by players at around level 50.

Elien the Mage is no longer needed for the quest. She has been replaced by Megian near the Brandon's Shelf portal.
Talon the Possessed was moved to Trandalar and now stands looking over the ocean near Aroah's Leap.
Kaa the Idealist has been moved out near Lem the Peaceful.
Kaa the Shade, Lem the Cold, Esh the Mind Lasher and Seliena the Brilliant have all been moved to various locations within the Northern Deadlands."

*insert rant here*

What is this? I thought the goal of the RoP was so it was NOT intended to be able to be soloed... the rop has always brought people together as a community. I recently did the rop and did pretty much everything by my self except the shadow dragon.

Hatchlings asking people for help, ancients havinga feeling of purpose as they lead them through dangerous places and passed on instructions... when i did my rop with Agua i was in awe of the ancient and the kindness of the community. i feel like much of the sense of community is going to be lost.

i am greatly disappointed with these changes. the rop is always something i have enjoyed leading, i have never seen anything wrong with it...

while i understand that it shouldnt be so hard that you get frustrated and rage quit game... i also dont feel it should be changed so much.

*shakes her head and sighs*

< grumpy ancient missing the old days.

[Dhalin]

That was nice back when one could easily find lots of people to go do something, but nowadays when you have much fewer people about who are willing to go kill (insert mob here) for you, well, meh.

I never liked how the RoP was, that's no big secret. Asking Level 30-50 players to run gauntlets of Level 90+ mobs? Eh... when does THAT ever make sense? Those Level 90+ mobs one-shot you or very close to.

Sticking them in the Northern Deadlands still makes it a challenge (WA mobs your level, especially Pre-T5 are always a challenge) but yet it isn't so out of this world that you have no chance unless you bring along bipeds.

RoP shouldn't be about "Do we have enough bipeds for rezzes here?" but rather a dragon who proves HIM/HERSELF worthy.

You're not proving anything while sitting there watching Level 100+ characters pound something to death.

Making RoP solo makes it so you must prove that you can do this, Yourself. I'd rather go up there into the Northern Deadlands, myself, and prove to the world that I am worthy of my status as Adult, rather than proving to the world that I have enough friends to carry me. I don't want carried. I want to vanquish my enemies, Myself. I didn't get to do that during my RoP; I had 3 or so Level 100+ doing that for me. Thankfully, I have another dragon hatchling who I WILL do RoP the "good" way, the way it SHOULD be done: Marching right up to Lem, Kaa, and the Shadow Dragon and killing them myself, personally without anyone there to carry me.

ARoP still requires a group of DRAGONS (no Bipeds!), and that's fine, because that's more or less endgame content, and becoming an ancient is optional.

Becoming an adult, though, allows you to fly which is a huge reason to even play a dragon in the first place, so I'd more-or-less call that 'required' to actually enjoy playing a dragon the way it is meant to be played.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I don't understand these changes neither... I have often seen enough higher levelled players wiling to help those doing their RoP.

[Raptress]

I'm not sure I really see the problem.. Anyone trying to do the RoP at 30 (i.e., those most likely to have needed a group with the old RoP) are.. still going to need the help of more powerful players to complete the quest at that level.

The only thing that's really changed as far as I can tell is not having to get lucky while running through places like ED or that run to Eilen the Mage. And that wasn't stuff I did with a group anyway, even at level 30. Trying to run through ED with a group is probably even more dangerous than doing it by yourself.

The old RoPs were mostly soloable at 50 anyway. The only sticking point I really recall was Kaa, and that was mostly due to his location since gliding was not yet a thing back then.

[Sigi]

I did RoP a week or so ago and I totally enjoyed it .

[Dhalin]

I don't understand these changes neither... I have often seen enough higher levelled players wiling to help those doing their RoP.

Therein lies the problem.

Some players don't want to have to be helped.

Some players want to solo it, to prove they did it.

Before the change? Pfft. I just don't see that happening, like, the Shadow Dragon. I was 52 when I did mine, and I saw how much damage the SD was doing to me when we were killing him and that was a LONG fight even with the two Lv90+ there.

One could argue that Kaa and Lem could be snuck to, yeah, sure if you knew the exact routes.

If you were Lunus, they were nearly one-shot kills.

But what if you were Helian...

Nope, not soloing that, especially with the Level 90 mobs everywhere. You don't get a one-shot kill if you're Helian. A Lunus could run in, WHAM, he's dead, recall when you die 3 seconds later. That's why my GF and I did ours simultaneously: I was Lunus, she was Helian. My One Hit Kills made her RoP much easier.

[LungTien Temeraire]

Some like to be helped and have others players with them, in a MMORPG. Some prefer to do it alone. It would be switching issues.

[Steelclaw]

But what if you were Helian...

Nope, not soloing that

Doing the previous incarnation of the Helian RoP solo is not impossible. I did it at lvl 100, and it was no cake walk. I spent a lot of time trying to find the safe spots to hide, where to walk, how to combat the mobs' AI... and even more time burning off death points. At the end, I was rewarded with a great sense of accomplishment.

I was also able to solo the Lunus RoP using my Blight copy at around lvl 75, and I was also quite pleased with the challenge.... However, in the end, I'm still an adult dragon, just like all the others who did their RoP; with some help, all alone, or simply dragged along for the ride.

Like Agua, I was somewhat put off by the "dumbing down" of RoP, but, after some thought, I've conceded that it's probably the right thing to do in this case. Consider that in its previous incarnation, either RoP had an extreme range of difficulty for someone attempting it, even without looking for a challenge. Also, consider that the RoP is in the critical path to developing a dragon character capable of exploring all of the available content. Now, I ask, is subjecting everyone wanting to play an adult or ancient dragon to the unpredictable frustration of the older RoP fair?

To some of us who enjoy puzzles and challenges, these changes do feel like dumbing down, however, they're more of a normalization, flattening the peaks in difficulty. For the others who don't enjoy that type of gameplay, these changes make their path to adulthood less burdensome, and their overall experience more enjoyable.

This is not to say that challenging content has no place in Istaria. Quite to the contrary, I hope that we will see quests that do require puzzle-solving strategy and challenges of skill -- as side quests, not ones in a position that hamper mainstream character development.

[Dhalin]

This is not to say that challenging content has no place in Istaria. Quite to the contrary, I hope that we will see quests that do require puzzle-solving strategy and challenges of skill -- as side quests, not ones in a position that hamper mainstream character development.

^^^
This guy gets it.

Huge Challenges belong in Endgame Content, not stuff you need to do while leveling your character up.

I'm sure, you give VI some time, they'll come up with more stuff for endgame characters to do, and/or optional stuff that's still hard.

And if you want, you can make it more challenging on yourself.

Try killing Lem, Kaa and the Shadow Dragon naked. Try it at Level 30. Whatever. You can make it harder on yourself if you wish. Force yourself to do it without a single use of Gold Rage or Silver Strike.

Yadda, Yadda.

[LungTien Temeraire]

This is not to say that challenging content has no place in Istaria. Quite to the contrary, I hope that we will see quests that do require puzzle-solving strategy and challenges of skill -- as side quests, not ones in a position that hamper mainstream character development.

I agree with this.

[AguaRush]

i realize that not everyone is disappointed with the changes. just stating that i am.

[Levana]

Well I agree with you Agua...

To be honest I liked where Talon was at Behemoth's lake, such a nice and fitting place...
I liked where Kaa the Shade was... such a cool place and a really nice glide from Tower of Nature to get there...
I liked the old Umyarr the golem king... now he's such a wimp and not even on a mountain peak anymore.

Now everything of RoP/ARoP seems out of place and made too easy for being -Rites of Passage- and the game being a MMO. I like to help people but that will happen less and less now...

The moving of Lem the Cold is not bad though since it was very hard to get him in Eastern Deadlands... but still.

Bring back old RoP please. T_T

A character editor after creation is something we are looking forward to...

[LOVWYRM]

I sign what Levana said

[Cynny]

I sign what Levana said

Second that.

[LungTien Temeraire]

I sign what Levana said

I third this.

[AguaRush]

Well I agree with you Agua...

To be honest I liked where Talon was at Behemoth's lake, such a nice and fitting place...
I liked where Kaa the Shade was... such a cool place and a really nice glide from Tower of Nature to get there...
I liked the old Umyarr the golem king... now he's such a wimp and not even on a mountain peak anymore.

Now everything of RoP/ARoP seems out of place and made too easy for being -Rites of Passage- and the game being a MMO. I like to help people but that will happen less and less now...

The moving of Lem the Cold is not bad though since it was very hard to get him in Eastern Deadlands... but still.

Bring back old RoP please. T_T

A character editor after creation is something we are looking forward to...

Well said leva. sadly pry no amount of partitioning will change it...just glad i did the rop when i did.

[Guaran]

...Like Agua, I was somewhat put off by the "dumbing down" of RoP, but, after some thought, I've conceded that it's probably the right thing to do in this case. Consider that in its previous incarnation, either RoP had an extreme range of difficulty for someone attempting it, even without looking for a challenge. Also, consider that the RoP is in the critical path to developing a dragon character capable of exploring all of the available content...

Critical path to exploring content? What pray tell does a level 30 hatchy want to do that requires flight? There's PLENTY of level appropriate content for level 30 to 50, none of which requires flight. (I cannot think of a single thing in thie range that requires flight).

And as you also mentioned, if someone wants to solo ROP, it is completely solo-able by level 80, which is when I solo'd it on some alts.

By the time someone is out exploring say Drulkar, where flight is required to reach some areas, the content there requires level 80 + anyway.

The ONLY argument that this change was needed that makes sense is one that acknowledges the community is dying off. Sadly, this change probably just pushes the knife in further as Agua mentioned.

[Frith-Rae]

I THINK the poster meant - flight is important to explore all avaialabe dragon content - in game period.

Not just "content available from 30-50"...

But I could be wrong .

I do see the point behind redoing the ROP to make it more solo friendly. Wether we like it about the state of the game (and the genre of MMOs as a whole) hitting a wall at 30/50/60 whatever and being told you pretty much have to get some type of group together (or vastly outlevel it and be stuck until then) in order to complete something so reportedly essential to the species - is a game stopper for many players.

It would be a game stopper in WOW or in SW:TOR, both with plenty of players. In Istaria where the population is so limited and people are CONSISTENTLY having issues putting groups together for ANY task - well...it creates a huge wall for new comers.

Leveling in MMOS is no longer considered a group-intensive process anymore like it was "in the older gen" of games. IN the vast majority of MMOS now - group content while leveing is not only entirely optional but easily skipped to continue on playing without inhibiting anything for your charcter other than some gear (that you dont really need to level well).

So when you are talking about retaining new players and keeping the game moving forward well..it had to happen.

I mean I know if I were to start a game with a low population tomorrow, and hit a wall in the first 1/3 of leveling where I could not get some huge game-changer ability that is considerd a FEATURE of the race - I'd quit. I wouldnt want a game with that type of philosophy. If I tried to get a group together to defeat such content and it took weeks - Id quit.

What worked in the early years of the game (I too did my RoP at level 35 because I waited month to get to that point and for the RoP to actually BE in game - and it was a thing your entire guild and friends did with you and it was awesome!) just doesn't hold anymore.

Now while I WISH we had the numbers and community still that allowed for it to remain a reality - it just isnt so. I lament the loss but I realize that its not anyone's fault - its an aging game in a changing genre.

It is what it is.

[Dhalin]

Critical path to exploring content? What pray tell does a level 30 hatchy want to do that requires flight? There's PLENTY of level appropriate content for level 30 to 50, none of which requires flight. (I cannot think of a single thing in thie range that requires flight).

Flight is one of the race-defining features of a Dragon. It is one of the major reasons why a player would choose to play a dragon instead of any of the other races. It is the only race in the game that can fly, and it lacks many of the speed buffs available to the other races. No jewelry, no access to Gift of Speed (unless it were casted on you but that requires running down a biped or buying scrolls you don't likely have money for at this point), etc. No, flight is NOT required, but yet, is a huge reason of why you'd play a dragon in the first place.

And as you also mentioned, if someone wants to solo ROP, it is completely solo-able by level 80, which is when I solo'd it on some alts.

You're essentially asking people to wait 30-50 levels to get the quest done, far past when it was originally intended to be obtainable? And not everyone has the experience to go wading around Level 90+ WA mobs at Level 80 (in which you could still quickly get killed). And that's not even mentioning that a player might have chosen to be Helian instead of Lunus. Do you really think a player could jump down into that bowl in WPL and actually fight that boss in the middle of that WA area, at Level 80, with how much Health that guy has? Lunus could do it because they had a 1-2 shot kill item. Helians did not IIRC. Now, maybe at Level 100 you could do it, but even then... you'd have to be a fairly good WA slayer with pretty nice tricked out gear to do it surely.

The ONLY argument that this change was needed that makes sense is one that acknowledges the community is dying off. Sadly, this change probably just pushes the knife in further as Agua mentioned.

As Frith said in the post above mine, this MMO is aging. We have to evolve with the MMO world or die off, just like in nature. "Survival of the Fittest". Those who don't evolve/adapt will die off. Nobody likes forced group questing mid-game anymore. It doesn't work in WoW, it doesn't work in FFXI, it doesn't work in nearly any other MMORPG I know of.

I don't know if you keep track of WoW, but it is the largest MMORPG in the Market by far, surpassing all others by a huge margin and even they had to de-group a lot of mid-game group quests because players were routinely skipping the quests because they could not find groups to get them done. Nobody likes waiting around trying to find groups of similar-level players to help them (or high-level ones to do it for them), meanwhile they're wasting all sorts of time (something few people have these days).

People want to log on, do their stuff, and log off. They don't like waiting around doing nothing praying there will be people available to help them. Istaria has a wonderful community that has helpful players in it, but said players are not online 24/7 and sometimes it can take one days, weeks to get people rounded up to do something, especially when we have players all over the world (and through all different timezones).

Go ahead and read through the various stories of people trying to get a rifts group together to do ARoP -- I've heard chat in-game where people had to wait *weeks* to find a group to do any of the ARoP mobs. ARoP is Endgame and optional, which is why I'm not against it requiring groups.

Flight, however, is intended to be gotten at Level 30-50, and is a huge key aspect of being a dragon. It shouldn't become a huge roadblock in a player's progression.

My own RoP was a huge roadblock -- I was hung up on the stupid thing for more than a month, and my repeated pleas for help (even though I had a guild) usually went mostly unheard while my GF and I sat around and twiddled our thumbs while waiting. It was usually "Not enough bipeds for rezzes" or "there's only one Level 70 dragon on" or Marketplace was oddly silent when I said "Could my GF and I please get help for _____?"

Eventually, we DID get a few helpful people, but as I said it took a month+ of some of THE most boring time I've ever spent in an MMORPG. In fact, my GF quit immediately after RoP, due to some IRL reasons and she never did come back to the game, even when it was Free to Play during the EI debacle. She won't touch it. She claims it is because of lag, but the game doesn't lag that much and I know her computer is more than good enough to handle it, and I know her connection is fine; she plays WoW off-and-on.

I think the whole RoP thing soured her will to play the game and she just lost interest in the game whatsoever. Had this RoP change happened back then, the two of us would have Duo'd it happily, and she might still be playing to this day.

[LungTien Temeraire]

On another hand, such quests in a MMORPG aren't meant to be soloed easily. The basis of a MMORPG is to work together with other players in order to achieve such goals. RoP isn't just a quest to go and kill a few low-levelled mobs. If some really want to do it alone, then they should wait to get enough levels before trying. RoP can be finished at lvl 30+ with enough help. We should not forget Istaria is an online multiplayer game.
It is sad your girlfriend left the game... I remember I have had to wait several months before gathering enough people to go and kill Shaloth the queen, myself.