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Thread: Community appointed RP GM

  1. #21

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien Temeraire View Post
    It looks like Rant about RP thread has moved here...
    The OP has nothing to do with the Rant on RP, but the possibility of creating an community appointed RP GM. (which general concensus seems to be that 1 person cant do it alone, and you cant have any official links to the devs, and the problems with having a single source say who can or cant.) My comments have all be in relation to this, giving one idea, having very well thought out rebuttal to it, and thus me giving a second idea taking those rebuttals into concideration.
    Horizons Crafting Calculator Update Team Member
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    I really wish you would pick a different wording already. The word "GM" means Dev appointed power and as your previous posts shown, this is not what you (nor one like Steelclaw) nor any member of the community will ever want to be a part of.

    I do like the idea of a new guild based on the Council of Elders that other players would seek out for advice. Everyone seems so hell bent on the idea that these would be RP police, when it could be just a collection of RPers that one could get feedback on a character before playing.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #23

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Maekrux, that's a very interesting telling. I like your "star" dragon thing =)

    Umm...

    When this idea originally came up, I meant it as more of a guild to monitor and teach people wanting to learn and be a part of a good RP circle. I didn't really think they'd try and manage the entire server. That task, is flippin impossible.

    In EVE, there is an university corporation. Their entire intention and purpose is to be a life raft for new players entering the universe, to teach them the ways of EVE Online, and help give them a leg up. People did recruit from them, and most people agreed to keep out of their space because new players were desired. [Yes there was drama later blah blah blah as with all things human, but the original idea and intent was good.] This is more or less what I meant by "Create a guild that teaches players how to RP"

    You'd get some oldies, and people who know how and want to tell stories. These are your guild masters or you can label them the "ST's" within the guild. They control and manage the stories told. They'd also actively go out seeking other players who fit into their style and invite them in if interested. New people can enter the guild, read the rules on some forum or introduction site, and introduce their character as such. They'd try and find themselves a spot to fit in.

    With this, players that are new and entering can talk to ST's to kind of try and grasp a better understanding of what's going on and try and work their characters to fit in. They should be encouraged to join the fun, by old players and good RP'ers showing them how it's done and inviting them actively into various scenes that are going on.

    I know this is a form of "closing off" but as I stated elsewhere, you shouldn't do that. Even Chioxin has a "Light" and public version... and a more "Serious" version for that style. You should be able to function in public as well as in the more heavy locations of your guild RP.

    Anyhow, that's what I meant by "Make a guild that does this." Sorry I didn't keep up much with the channel chatter when it was going on, my eyes were distracted elsewhere, as they often are... Especially when a channel gets active!

    If this is what your guild does? Yay! If not, then I wish you the best.

    I do think Istaria needs its mentors.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    I do like the idea of a new guild based on the Council of Elders that other players would seek out for advice. Everyone seems so hell bent on the idea that these would be RP police, when it could be just a collection of RPers that one could get feedback on a character before playing.
    A good idea in theory but it doesn't seem to work out very well in practice. A number of us in Clan Azuranous, such as Raptress, Starstilanx, Nambroth, Xoshara, Hraefn, and myself have attempted that over the past couple years to varying degrees of success (or rather varying degrees of failure). Most of the time the player in question has absolutely no interest in, say, bracketing OOC in non-OOC channels or toning down / changing some really over the top characteristics. It's also common for other old players to jump in the defense of the player in question if the player takes issue with us talking to them about having an Ancient sized grasshopper as a character.

    If I were to say what would likely happen with this 'Council of Elders' idea; in most cases they will not be approached for feedback on a character and rather will have to do the approaching themselves. Most of those they approach will likely disregard the feedback and carry on as they were. If an argument sparks they could easily find themselves in the crosshairs of not only the player they approached but also a number of other 'elder' players that are not a part of this 'Council'.

    This isn't to say that it's not a good idea and it wouldn't be nice if it worked to some degree, just that I wouldn't hold much hope for it.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

  5. #25

    Question Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Akrion View Post
    A good idea in theory but it doesn't seem to work out very well in practice. A number of us in Clan Azuranous, such as Raptress, Starstilanx, Nambroth, Xoshara, Hraefn, and myself have attempted that over the past couple years to varying degrees of success (or rather varying degrees of failure). Most of the time the player in question has absolutely no interest in, say, bracketing OOC in non-OOC channels or toning down / changing some really over the top characteristics. It's also common for other old players to jump in the defense of the player in question if the player takes issue with us talking to them about having an Ancient sized grasshopper as a character.

    If I were to say what would likely happen with this 'Council of Elders' idea; in most cases they will not be approached for feedback on a character and rather will have to do the approaching themselves. Most of those they approach will likely disregard the feedback and carry on as they were. If an argument sparks they could easily find themselves in the crosshairs of not only the player they approached but also a number of other 'elder' players that are not a part of this 'Council'.

    This isn't to say that it's not a good idea and it wouldn't be nice if it worked to some degree, just that I wouldn't hold much hope for it.
    Hmm, have you seen my previous post?

    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien Temeraire View Post
    As I have said many times in the pasts, I am sometimes in NT, on Order, and things very rarely get bad with new players as, before telling them about how we use to RP, and other things,..., I greet them politely, I welcome them in the game and don't just enter, for example, to type on the main channel, or in tells : "Use brackets. It is the rule.", "You can't RP such character in Istaria. It is out of lore." I understand if new players, welcomed this way, tend to get annoyed and to rudely reply.
    Other players, including me, have also tried - and keep trying - and meet new players. Since I have started doing it, only a few attempts didn't go well, with rare players refusing to listen, but it went well almost each time I met a new player who was interested in RP.

    Were you friendly greeting them at first, and welcoming them in the game and the community before everything else? after that, were you softly suggesting ideas and discussing respectfully about ideas and alternative ways do end up with proper RP character/background? As I said before, while we may meet some uncooperative new players, it might be a problem of methods.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Shian View Post
    Everyone seems so hell bent on the idea that these would be RP police, when it could be just a collection of RPers that one could get feedback on a character before playing.
    \

    This is as accurate as I can say. This is in no way to be a rp police. and I already stated in the first post to suggest there be more than one person be in this group, why some seem to not read fully what I stated before is beyond me but ill let it be. Yes rp is meant to be free and I love all the odd ball types of hatchies that make their way into the clearing but as shian stated, this would merely be a group of volunteers who are knowledgeable in rp approved by the community to ensure that those wishing to learn may be taught properly so we do not need to worry about bad rp where 90% of everyone else is left in their chair growling or face palming knowing they cannot do anything about it since there is not someone they can send the bad rper to for quick advice.

    I dont mind changing the name of RP-GM but in the end, new people who think they are high and mighty will just push any other name aside telling them to let them do it their way and totaly screw up when its possible they could actually make amazing rp. this is just a matter of a name showing the community has granted these individuals permission to teach others properly and it is wise to listen to them as they have somthing to teach. who would you listen more? one who looked like they were only in some small guild? or someone who had a role as RP-GM and have the entire community saying they are not lying?

    it is simply making it so that new players can easily see there is a difference in this person and the next and the RP-GM is not just another person randomly in the world trying to push their way
    Last edited by Iseia; February 7th, 2012 at 02:24 PM.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Iseia View Post
    we do not need to worry about bad rp where 90% of everyone else is left in their chair growling or face palming knowing they cannot do anything about it since there is not someone they can send the bad rper to for quick advice.
    I don't think we'd call this bad RP as the RPer may be a new one and will be new to Istaria. They can be beginners RPers and so they need to learn more about it and about the game, like when we learn to drive a car or to play a game requiring some skill

    I was totally new to RP myself when I entered Istaria, and I can say I was far away from a nice start. But with time, advices and help, I learned and improved my RP skill. So I think those who aren't RPing properly when they start, and try for example, to RP 'too far' characters and 'too far' backgrounds, they aren't necessarily meaning bad things and can still welcome advices and help if older RPers properly greet and talk with them.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    i dont speak that in terms of beginners, them i can go with, its those that had been about at least long enough to know what they are doing i was referring to

  9. #29

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    In this case, indeed, though advices would likely not work with them.

  10. #30

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    ook so Im not technically part of this community anymore - but take my experience and hopefully learn something.

    Because this has all been done before. =D

    My first point is this - don't have anything you want to do around this require/ask of the devs for them to do ANYTHING in game designating players. They arent going to do that. Anything you guys want to come up with has to run itself, and succeeed or fail, base don what you the players do with it. The devs are not going to grant anyone a title or powers or council status or any "in game tag" denoting their role.

    So just keep in mind no new player who does not visit the forum is going ot have any clue that XYZ player belongs to some player-appointed council of suggestion when they attempt to make a suggestion to that new player on their RP.

    So if your idea (as some have suggested) revolves around the devs doing anything in game to collect/denote/title etc. these players - figure out another way. Cuz it aint gonna happen.

    Point 2 -

    Uhh..those who want to do this - good luck. I can tell you you are opening up a nightmarish can of worms that at the very best might get 1-3 players to tweak their stories and at the worst is going to drive new players off the server and out of the game; resulting in another RP death of the server (how many can the game take? well...I dont know..) as people start getting peeved off.

    A story for you-

    Once, in the long long ago - Order had a council of active players, guild officers, etc. that would meet once every few months to try and focus up ideas for the shard to RP as a whole, RP events, guild concerns, shard concerns (good and bad for discussion) etc. After this went on for some time, someoen suggested that the members be voted upon and have officer-positions from the various major guilds and factions in the server. This was done on the forums and things continued on. General Members were not voted upon or appointed or anytihng like that, anyone was welcome to come and discuss and help think up ideas and such. The only votes were concerning those who would basically be "required" to be there each meeting. After such meetings, the secretary would type up the minutes and put them in the forums for all to know.

    This went on for some time and everything seemed fine - sometimes the meetings were small but still they happened. Just an appointed time for those of like minds ont he shard to gather and try to hammer out problems as they arose or come up with ideas for fun stuff for everyone.

    And then suddenly there became a movement on the shard - somehow the people of this "group" were "special". They were "elitest" and it was "them and us" (Us being the people who didnt bother about the meetings nor really cared what was discussed or not discussed). People were calling for "boycotts" of the council and their talks - saying that "doesnt matter it doesn't apply to us" (which is fine) and then, even though it didnt apply to them and they had nothign to do with it, went around bad mouthing and spreading negative press about said-group.

    Even though said-group did no policing, or made any laws, or decided anything about anyone.

    The "council" went away then because waht was the point in attempting to do anything for anyone when they just want to point to you as "elitest" and slander the entire endevour as some "special gm eared council" (which was never the case). Those who were "officers" got sick of the abuse and the backlash when they didn't DO anything and so the council gave up.

    The morale to the story - it doesnt matter how vanilla you think your little group is - its going to cause drama when it starts getting attention or attracting attention in any way. Its going to end up causing a LOT of negativity towards the shard and those volunteers who, in their kindness and efforts, are GOING to take abuse.

    That is the nature of the beast. Even the little secretary of the aforementioned group, who never tried to do anytihng but help every little hatchling who came to RP feel included - who went out of her way to try and include everyone in anything she was doing - took abuse (cough yea me cough).

    "RP Police" is a very, very, very sensitive issue - and as much you insist that isnt what this is. That is EXACTLY how it will come across over time. There is no way you can screen the people who are "voted upon" (those who do not vote will, eventually, become vocal in how they never requested to be under this groups rule - and will ostracise its members and call for boycotts) to know that everytime they are online they are never rude or cross witih anyone.

    Wether you intend it or not, this group or council will be seen as "RP Police" by at least some of those they attempt to talk to. Those people will probably get offended and rouse their friends to come to their defense. Things could get ugly in public quickly. Thereby putting everyone off.

    Go forward with your group if you like; make yoru appointment and hold your "vote" - do whatever you wish. However, I think the real answer is as others (Mae, Akrion, etc.) have stated. Times have changed.

    You can RP in privatel little groups if you want to screen/censor/control those whom you RP with and keep public RP more open and light; but if you are expecting the shard to somehow come together with roses and butterflies to assist the little newcomers into a better world for all - well...good luck with that. Let me know how that works out for you.

    Those of us around for the "heyday"" of the RP times also remember that even in the "heyday" you still had the drama and the "RP CYCLE" that many of us have mentioned before. And the only thing that made the "heyday" the "heyday" was that there were SEVERAL ACTIVE semi-public chatrooms that welcomed ANYONE and helped them along. Ye Olde Pub, KCE Roleplay, and other public chatrooms were open for anyone to get involved in. They weren't really private except for the fact that they were in the chatroom. It wasn't done by public RP, it wasn't done by dragon-chat RP.

    Successful RP comes from having a committed group of people who signon on a regular basis and conduct forth their RP. Who lead by EXAMPLE (not by correction or instruction) The more you have tha tdo this the more successful the entire shard's RP will be because people will see the abudance of options in the channels they can to and they see those players active in other channels and know them to be friendly and welcoming.

    Private RP won't do it (it has its place but it is not the chatroom format I describe above) and New Trismus RP is just a start, an introduction, into what it COULD be.

    But if you aren't out in public providing public examples then we all only have ourselves to blame.

    A Council going around making suggestions to new players they see attempting RP..yea...ain't gonna do much.

    But again - Im not active anymore. But I have been around since release and I've seen these groups and their effects on the community. I've seen, as others have, the cycle that will always be. You attract more flies with honey and all that...
    Frith-Rae BridgeSol
    Great Elder of Keir Chet K'Eilerten
    Iea has returned.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Frith-Rae, you are still part of this community. You are still my friend and we can still have RP on this forum when you want *winghugs

    About the topic of this thread, finally, I'm pondering if it wouldn't be better for older RPers to just come in game and offer their help for RP when and if they are up to and when new RPers need help. Without getting any title, official or unoffical, without developpers to do things about it, and without established council or special things.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Frith-Rae View Post
    Successful RP comes from having a committed group of people who sign on on a regular basis and conduct forth their RP. Who lead by EXAMPLE (not by correction or instruction) The more you have that do this the more successful the entire shard's RP will be because people will see the abundance of options in the channels they can to and they see those players active in other channels and know them to be friendly and welcoming.

    There you go. Frith gets it. ;p

    I still attempt to do this. I still go to New Trimus, or lately Skalkaar, sit around, and just meet and interact with people. In doing so, I try to set that baseline, not by instruction or correction, but by example. It is wonderfully subconscious, and helps players to know what is and is not - not necessarily if it is normal, but that it, at least, exists.

    But as many of you know, I don't log on nearly as much as I used to. I can't be there all the time. So when they run into players who have all these unique RPs, they consider that uniqueness to be standard, and see it as the only option, thereby creating themselves to be that way, and having a hard time revising or going back once established.

    Again, this is only what I see. I can't offer much helpful advice.



    such as a guild rping themselves as members of the town of South March, and their rp dealing with that and surrounding areas. (imagine a guild creating a history specifically for a certain town! I would LOVE to read that)
    Believe it or not these once, and in some ways do, still exist. Tears of the Phoenix originally set up in Selen, and had taken part in contests once held there, and so on. Harton Valley, where Mae lives now has a past starting primarily with the siege of Feladan, as it was the closest travel gate. It was built by a few who came after it was safe to live there (Feladan once was a Deadland), though eventually most left and it became a dragon town, run by three Helians, Mae, Nephandi, and Chioxin.

    Other places also served to be RP communities; if I recall, an active group of RPers held lairs on the slopes of East Chiconis.

    But as Frith said, they were an active community dedicated to their RP. That's how they existed and that's how they functioned.



    Personally, I never liked factional RP. I know it makes sense, but I've always wanted there to be a one-world, one-lore scenario, and throughout my career, I've always worked hard to make that possible.

    As I mentioned, that ended up poorly ;p hence why I'm such a hermit crab now. But I will still do my best to hold events and such for the population at large, such as the Festival of Ash.

    I leave you to your discussions, but again, I cannot willingly take part in their implementation, however it may be.
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
    "Resurgam!"

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    I don't see having a council, a guild, a single elected person, etc., having any positive effect and I see a lot of potential for negative. In my experience, the RPers that need the help almost never seek it out on their own. Thus, any sort of council would need to approach the ones that need improvement first. No matter how polite you are, when you tell someone that they're doing it wrong, you're still telling them that they're doing it wrong. Some take it better than others, yes, but there's still a really good chance that they'll get offended. And if they have friends, suddenly those people are mad at you too. It can quickly spiral into people flaming you for "trying to tell them what to do."

    That's the thing. When you approach someone and try to correct them, you're putting them on the defensive. A lot of people feel the need to defend themselves in that situation, especially if they really liked their sparkly unicorn centaur.

    As Frith has already said, "lead by example."

    (I'll be the first to admit that I have been lurking in private RPs and rarely going out into the world of the fuzzy, gilled, shadow dragons. The reason is because it's not fun for me when almost every character is something that I have to willfully have mine think is nuts or telling wild stories. It's not an excuse; just a reason, in case anyone tries to say I'm being a hypocrite. :P)

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  14. #34

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    i do agree to this. i hope it actually takes off.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    I don't see having a council, a guild, a single elected person, etc., having any positive effect and I see a lot of potential for negative. In my experience, the RPers that need the help almost never seek it out on their own. Thus, any sort of council would need to approach the ones that need improvement first. No matter how polite you are, when you tell someone that they're doing it wrong, you're still telling them that they're doing it wrong. Some take it better than others, yes, but there's still a really good chance that they'll get offended. And if they have friends, suddenly those people are mad at you too. It can quickly spiral into people flaming you for "trying to tell them what to do."

    That's the thing. When you approach someone and try to correct them, you're putting them on the defensive. A lot of people feel the need to defend themselves in that situation, especially if they really liked their sparkly unicorn centaur.

    As Frith has already said, "lead by example."

    (I'll be the first to admit that I have been lurking in private RPs and rarely going out into the world of the fuzzy, gilled, shadow dragons. The reason is because it's not fun for me when almost every character is something that I have to willfully have mine think is nuts or telling wild stories. It's not an excuse; just a reason, in case anyone tries to say I'm being a hypocrite. :P)
    Then, don't tell them in any way they are doing it wrong, but that both them and the you could think about some alternative ways while their first idea migh not be enjoyed by most of the RPers. Don't try to correct them but to offer ideas, not like a strict teacher but like a friendly and open enough player who wants to help them integrate the community. When I have done this, I rarely have got bad responses... but maybe am I very very lucky, or is it because my approach and opening are different from CA's?

    Maybe chances of success are greater if the RPers going towards new ones are less strict and would accept things accepted by most of the public RPers?

    And Raptress, I understand you can't enjoy every RP and prefer to stay outside of public, with your friends, as it is your choice and right.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien Temeraire View Post
    and the you
    "them and you*"

  17. #37

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    As far as I'm concerned, I already do this.

    There is little need for an organized group of moderators when really, all we should be doing is setting an example and approaching those who continuously abuse or outright neglect lore with suggestions. It is up to us few to set an example and 'enforce' it through our roleplay as best we can. We don't have to accept the existence of every ridiculous character we meet, and I for one intend to be very selective.

    In the end, I simply wish these younger and less experienced players would stop and think about their impact on such a small RP community when they bring volcano dragons and creatures that don't actually exist in Istaria onto the playing field. We shouldn't have to do any of this, yet here we are.
    Last edited by Xepher; February 8th, 2012 at 02:51 PM.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    If they willingly abuse or neglect the lore (something I have personally rarely seen), then it doesn't mean we must turn harsh with them, and, in case they don't change their ways, better to just ignore them, and as they see that most of the community ignore them, they will finally change or leave. Most of the time, though, it is new player and new RPers who will be open for changes and ideas if treated nicely. Things won't get better if we just say in public that we are disapproving names, if we complain about RP habits and if we mock their styles. Because these behaviors will only anger them, whether they were open for alternatives or not, and feed the fire, leading to new and older RPers to leave for rude reactions, as it has being said before.

    Trying to enforce anything related to RP can't have any success. The choice of how to RP, to name a character only belongs to its owner, and if others don't like it, they just have to ignore it and it will do. No, we, players and RPers, don't have to like nor interact with every RP character if we don't like the related player's style and character's name. But we can't just forbid them to do something they like nor can we enforce any changes we like on them.

    Ones may find another RP/character/style/name bad, ridiculous, unrealistic, but ones shouldn't forget that, while he is free to think and have tastes he wants, this is an opinion, not necessarily shared by everyone else, and those who think differently aren't necessarily jerks,... stuff like that. If ones don't like, while enough others do in the public RP community, better to just ignore it and stay with those ones enjoys RPing with.

    I wish that we all would just go with those we like and let the others have fun between themselves.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien
    If they willingly abuse or neglect the lore (something I have personally rarely seen)
    I fail to see how it's possible for anyone to unwillingly abuse and/or neglect the lore. It is a choice. I don't know why you would think this is a rare occurrence, either. It is common knowledge that a game typically has lore behind every race, and that if one intends to RP that race, they should -probably- read up on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien
    then it doesn't mean we must turn harsh with them, and, in case they don't change their ways, better to just ignore them, and as they see that most of the community ignore them, they will finally change or leave

    So then, you agree the best course of action is to outright ignore them and that the best case scenario is they change, or leave. How harsh of you <:


    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien
    Ones may find another RP/character/style/name bad, ridiculous, unrealistic, but ones shouldn't forget that, while he is free to think and have tastes he wants, this is an opinion, not necessarily shared by everyone else,

    When there is set lore, realism and believability are rarely a matter of opinion alone. There is something to compare the character's story/appearance/what ever to. There is nothing wrong with being creative and bending the lore a little to make your character feel more personalized, the only thing I try to stress to people is that there are LIMITS, and that I wish people would respect the difference between 'unique' and outright ridiculous.



    Quote Originally Posted by LungTien
    I wish that we all would just go with those we like and let the others have fun between themselves.
    Completely reasonable in an extensive RP community. On Order, this is not a viable solution at all. If I were to personally abide by this, I'd be RPing with the same 5-6 people every single day. Where does that get anyone? Roleplaying is a give and take activity. As a roleplayer I strive not only to receive quality roleplay, but to provide it to others as well. The characters I see on Order today don't want to contribute to that, they are born of the desire to have attention on them, not to be a functional and believable member of the community (Yes, this is a COMMUNITY, not a personal stage) and to breathe life into a culture-rich and beautiful world that's already enjoyable without having to play an overly spiced-up character.
    Last edited by Xepher; February 8th, 2012 at 03:58 PM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Community appointed RP GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Xepher View Post
    Completely reasonable in an extensive RP community. On Order, this is not a viable solution at all. If I were to personally abide by this, I'd be RPing with the same 5-6 people every single day. Where does that get anyone? Roleplaying is a give and take activity. As a roleplayer I strive not only to receive quality roleplay, but to provide it to others as well. The characters I see on Order today don't want to contribute to that, they are born of the desire to have attention on them, not to be a functional and believable member of the community (Yes, this is a COMMUNITY, not a personal stage) and to breathe life into a culture-rich and beautiful world that's already enjoyable without having to play an overly spiced-up character.
    I like this idea a lot. The community aspect of RP that is, and how you add to it via community. I'm more than willing to act/react to people I bump into, ESPECIALLY in the physical world rather than in channels. I'll talk to anyone, who wants their ear talked off, or I'll atleast try. *Grin* Ran into someone on a hill in Mahagra and had a bit of an IC chat =) I love that kind of stuff! It's nice.

    But, I find I always kind of find my core 5 or so people and then the others are happen stance meetings [which of course, have a chance to grow into more.]

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