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Thread: Spell / Effect Conflicts

  1. #21

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorbin View Post
    neither flame attack V, nor energy attack V will change lightning arrow's nature damage.. only ice attack V works. it seems to me, all 3 should work the same way. any of the 3 should overwrite lightning arrows nature damage.

    also the ice crystal that changes damage to ice, does not change lightning arrows nature damage either. you must remove lightning arrows to get ice effect off the crystal. sorry, atm i can not think of the crystals exact name.
    i only know it's a quested crystal, and when inserted into a bow, does not change damage to ice if you are using lightning arrows
    Actually I don't think anything should override any of the "x"-arrow damage types. Its a lightning arrow. The damage should be lightning and nothing else. If you want flame damage, use flame arrows. Using spell attack types defeats the purpose. If you need a different damage type like primal, have the primal attack cast on you and leave the arrow damage-types off.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorbin View Post
    log into order or chaos, use lightning arrows and try to use flame attack V or energy attack V. the spell casts, yes, but the actual damage doesn't change from nature to flame or energy. cast ice attack V and it changes to ice no problem. hit for ice damage. frozen spellshard crystal also will not change damage to ice as it states. as long as lightning arrows is on it stays nature damage
    This exactly. I had tried it on Blight an it works fine there so I'm not really sure what's happening. On Order anyway I can attest to it not acting normally. I'd be more than happy to make a video if you like?

  3. #23

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    More stacking effect problems:

    Demonstaff has a chance to land effect, Nervous Tick on the target. -50 strength - 50 dexterity for 15 seconds.
    Nervous tick overwrites Bane IV tech (85% base strength, 85% base dexterity). Assuming a lvl 100 mob with only 700 strength, the bane debuff would reduce strength and dexterity by 105, yet Nervous Tick overwrites it!

    Nervous Tick also overwrites Malady IV (-75 strength, -75 Dexterity, plus a dot that lasts 1:59). The lower tiers of Bane tech have less chance of landing, but still grant 85% str/dex debuff on target. Even Bane I shouldn't get overwritten by the effect off the Demonstaff!

    Nervous tick also overwrites Bane V and Malady V (-93 strength, -93 dexterity plus dot)

    Nervous tick should be made to stack with all other debuffs.

    Bane effect should only be overwritten by higher tiers of itself, and nothing else.

    Fix the blight spells!

    Additional testing:
    Bane effect (from blight spell tech) doesn't stack with Malady effect (a blight spell). There's only Bane and Taint to even choose from on most blight spells. The effects should stack.

    Blight Poison V tech (small dot) fails when Malady is on the target.
    Last edited by Guaran; March 31st, 2013 at 09:58 PM.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Effects that modify the same stats will conflict. That is how much of the game works. Demonbane is an epic weapon, hence why its effect overwrites most others. These are not bugs.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

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  5. #25

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Demonbane is an epic weapon, hence why its effect overwrites most others.
    :) Well, how about making Demonbane (Demon spike) and Nervous Tick (Demon Staff) effects equivalent to T5 debuffs? Please :D
    --- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
    Demonslaying since July 2004

  6. #26

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Well it is overwriting better effects. Not very epic.

    How about making Nervous Tick effect be -500 Strength, -500 Dexterity? The effect is shortlived compared to the blight spells of conflicting type.

    Or, -250 Strength, -250 Dexterity, and make the effect last longer.


    In any event, the blight techs' effects should stack with the blight spells' effects.

  7. #27

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Actually I don't think anything should override any of the "x"-arrow damage types. Its a lightning arrow. The damage should be lightning and nothing else. If you want flame damage, use flame arrows. Using spell attack types defeats the purpose. If you need a different damage type like primal, have the primal attack cast on you and leave the arrow damage-types off.
    it's not changing the arrow type. rangers do nature damage with bow. lightning arrows is a stun. now this issue still exists in the game, where as ice attack V changes damage to ice, but flame attack V still does not change damage to flame. yet flame attack IV does as does energy attack IV. and none of the primal attacks are usable at all with ranger using lightning arrows. is this issue being looked into yet?

    BTW: rangers do not get flame arrow, spirit arrows or any other type

  8. #28

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Not a personal problem of mine, but I've accidentally annoyed two Bloodmages by casting True Grit on them while they had Concentrate Blood up. I get that they both apply to the health stat but I think that Concentrate Blood should not be overwritten by TG, considering that it is a far better buff and takes so long to recycle in comparison. Buffing a ped with TG when they have CB up should fail.
    Bumbling Ancient and grumbling Satyr on Chaos- if Helians are supposed to be 'spellcasters', then why is Wintheria, the Gold Rage trainer, a Helian?
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  9. #29

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    I've modified Nervous Tick to debuff by -250 for next patch.

    Bane and Malady properly conflict as they both modify Dex/Str.

    Blight Poison V tech (small dot) fails when Malady is on the target.
    I see no way that this can occur. They do not share a keyword. The only other possible conflict with Blight Poison that I see would be Ruin.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  10. #30

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I've modified Nervous Tick to debuff by -250 for next patch.
    A good step in the right direction. It is only 15 seconds compared to up to 10 minutes for the blight spells such as lesser strength, lesser dexterity. Perhaps a small increase in timer is in order? 30 seconds?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Bane and Malady properly conflict as they both modify Dex/Str.
    Bane is a technique applied to blight spells, such as Malady. It ONLY applies to blight spells..

    Malady is a blight spell.

    So while form a technical standpoint I understand why they conflict, the point is that these should not conflict, unless the design of the techs are at fault. Bane modifies by a percentage, Malady by a specific amount. They should stack. If not, then the ONLY blight tech which can be applied without overwriting the spells own effect would be range and taint (lowers blight resistance. Which might be useful IF there are a lot of damaging blight spells, there are not).

    The situation is like this. Even if someone does not tech Bane onto Malady, they will tech it onto Withered State. Withered State is a small dot, so, it conflicts with Blight Poison (another blight spell tech, which cannot be applied to Malady btw). So the only choices left to tech onto Withered State are Bane and Blight Damage. Blight Damage adds a small initial bit of damage (less than 20 from testing with a lvl 97 bloodmage, nearly pointless). Bane lowers the targets base strength to 85%, and base dexterity to 85%. The only decent choice is Bane.

    But wait! You cast Withered State, and Bane lands on the target! Yay! Next, you cast Malady, it overwrites the Bane tech effect. !!!(Cursing ensues)! On higher level mobs the Malady effect of -93 str -93 dex likely works out to be less that the 15% reductions from Bane.

    So if these are not going to be made to stack, the Malady spell is pointless.

    So, whats left in my blight spell lineup that's even worth using?

    Withered State (dot) teched with Bane, Pierce, Accuracy. (44-60 Blight damage every 6 seconds for 42 seconds)
    Rust teched with Bane and range for pulling. (-130 armor for 2 minutes) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Lessen Armor.
    Lessen Armor teched with Bane and range for pulling. (-102 armor for 10 minutes, 5 minute recycle) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Rust.
    Lessen Power teched with Bane (-73 Power)(5 minute recycle) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Derange effect from Mind spells.
    Lessen Focus teched with Bane (-73 Focus)(5 minute recycle) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Derange effect from Mind spells.
    Lessen Health (-173 Health)(5 minute recycle) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison.
    Brittle V teched with Bane (-136 to crush resistance) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison.
    Soften V teched with Bane(-136 to slash resistance) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison.
    Mark V teched with Bane (-136 to pierce resistance) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison.
    Blight Ward V
    Blight Resistance V
    Dispell teched with Bane (chance to remove 1 beneficial buff) Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range.

    (The ONLY damaging spell in the above listing is Withered State)

    Lessen Strength(-73 to strength)(5 minute recycle). Pointless, doesn't stack with Bane. Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Weakness or Malady either.
    Lessen Dexterity(-73 to dexterity)(5 minute recycle). Pointless, doesn't stack with Bane. Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Clumsiness or Malady either.
    Malady(-93 to strength and dexterity, plus a chance for a dot 50-68 blight damage frequency 17 seconds for 1:59). Pointless, doesn't stack with Bane or Blight Poison. Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range. Doesn't stack with Weakness or Clumsiness either.
    Clumsiness(-115 to dexterity). Pointless, doesn't stack with Bane. Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Lessen Dexterity or Malady either.
    Weakness(-115 to strength). Pointless, doesn't stack with Bane. Can only be teched with Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Doesn't stack with Lessen Strength or Malady either. (seeing a dismal pattern emerge..)

    C'mon, seriously? Don't say this is "working as intended". A skill that clearly can only really debuff the target, yet it's best debuff (Bane tech) doesn't stack with 5 out of 15 spell effects? And saying there are 15 usable debuffs is overstating it, since lessen strength, lessen dexterity, malady don't even stack with clumsiness or weakness. Plus all the "Lessen" spells are 5 minute recycle.

    Almost the entire spell line only has 4 choices for techs: Bane, Taint, Range, Blight Poison. Several will not even take Blight poison (which only ticks for about 10 damage on the target). Withered State is the only one which takes Blight Damage (which adds about 20 damage to the first hit of the spell), Accuracy, and Gale/Romp/Pierce/Critical Damage.

    And all that has to be done to fix this is to make it so that Bane doesn't conflict with anything. The overlap of lessens with clumsiness/weakness are I believe on purpose. "Lessens" are useable by more schools, weaker effect, much longer recycle than weakness/clumsiness.

    Bane modifies by a percent, not a specific amount. There should be some way it can be made to not conflict.

    Some work was done on Bloodmages in 2011, but these blight spells which are half of the schools spell-lineup (along with spirit) are untouched.

    So 2 of the 4 choices for techs to apply to blight spells (bane, blight poison) conflict with about half of the spell lineup, and definately will conflict if you tried to go through all the debuffs on a target. Whats left is range, and taint (lowers targets blight resistance). Range can be useful for pulling, but you wouldnt use it on everything since it adds to the recycle. Taint is pointless because there's only 3 small dot effects in the entire lineup that do damage, 2 spells, 1 tech (Blight Poison). And the damage they do is very small. So we have a school with half worthless spells since they conflict with the only worthwhile tech the spells can take.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I see no way that this can occur. They do not share a keyword. The only other possible conflict with Blight Poison that I see would be Ruin.
    Yet the fact remains that they conflict. I've seen it in my combat feedback....

    It should also be noted that Derange tech (lowers base power and focus to 85% of base) is in a similiar position that Bane is. Stupidity (-115 Power) and Scatterbrain (-115 Focus) take the Derange Tech, but the effects do not stack. These spells can only be teched with Derange and Fog (lowers targets Mind resistance). Fog might be useful if any mind spells did damage, but they do not.

    Please see if there is a way to make the Bane and Derange effects not conflict.
    Last edited by Guaran; April 3rd, 2013 at 11:48 PM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Yet the fact remains that they conflict. I've seen it in my combat feedback....
    I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that they do or can. To expound on this, augmentations can only conflict when one of two conditions is met. 1) Their name matches exactly or 2) They have keywords in common.

    As Blight Poison and Malady aren't named the same #1 fails.

    Blight Poison has one keyword on it - dot_blight. Malady has two keywords statmod_str_down and statmod_dex_down. As the augmentations have no keywords in common #2 fails.

    Some work was done on Bloodmages in 2011, but these blight spells which are half of the schools spell-lineup (along with spirit) are untouched.


    Correct, because this would require a lot of re-keywording with a wider impact. Simply a big project that we have no bandwidth for at this time.
    Last edited by AmonGwareth; April 3rd, 2013 at 11:59 PM.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #32

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Ok, searched the log files and it looks like on the Blight Poison conflict, it was with Withered State, not Malady
    [04/01/13 19:00:59] Blight Poison V failed because Cave Crawler Hatchling has Withered State V
    some others:
    [04/03/13 20:04:13] Bane V failed because Cave Crawler Hatchling has Nervous Tick
    [02/27/13 21:57:50] Blight Poison V failed because Valkor The Impaler has Ruin II
    Ruin is probably the better dot, since from what I've seen, Blight Poison only ticks for maybe 10 damage.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooolios View Post
    One of my biggest peeves is Fortify V conflicting with Enhance Armor V and Raise Armor V. It completely overwrites it. I think it would make more sense if Enhance Armor or any armor spell for that matter overwrote the tiered version of Fortify. Fortify is only a 15 second buff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    They should stack. Fortify is a "tech effect" and extremely shortlived. It should not conflict with anything other than say lower versions of itself. If this is going to conflict it is an example of yet another tech made worthless because of these conflicts...
    Noticed some additional problems with Fortify this weekend.

    Fortify V is a 15 second buff, that grants 110% or 115% base armor (forget which).
    Fortify V overwrites Enhance Armor IV and lower.
    Fortify V effect will land on anyone, yet the only races capable of recieving any benefit from it at all are races with some innate armor: Dragons and Sslisk. Dragons I believe gain the largest possible benefit from Fortify V, which comes out to be 65 armor for 15 seconds for a level 100 Ancient Dragon with all quests done and max hoard. This buff amount is likely less for Sslisk.
    Fortify V OVERWRITES Enhance Armor III (72 armor for 30 minutes), on say a Dryad, and gives 0 armor for 15 seconds. Fortify V strips Armor buffs with an effect granting 0 armor. So this tech is beyond broken if it will not at least stack.

    Percentage based Buffs (Fortify) and Debuffs (Bane, Derange) all need to stack with the direct amount buffs and debuffs (Enhances, all the Blight spells, etc.)

    These three spelltechs simply need new unique keywords and this issue will be resolved. This will fix many issues with blight spells and with Fortify teched spells stripping players armor buffs with a useless buff.

    P.S. Fortify V adds less armor than Enhance Armor III. After it is fixed, it should probably also have the percent increase bumped way up too. 65 more armor when you have about 2000 armor is only about 3% overall buff. Perhaps 200% armor increase would be appropriate.
    Last edited by Guaran; April 29th, 2013 at 06:18 PM.

  14. #34

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    It's a WA plot I say.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Then a question about Buff of the following Aura of fire Illustrious stand Aura of Health If im understanding some of this about the keywords part i can understand if two abilites that have Aura in their names might conflict My question is this Why do things like Illustrious stand IV over write a Flame Disiples Aura of fire I and Aura of Health III ? Is it because they offer a AOE effect or something else?

  16. #36

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by starlight View Post
    Then a question about Buff of the following Aura of fire Illustrious stand Aura of Health If im understanding some of this about the keywords part i can understand if two abilites that have Aura in their names might conflict My question is this Why do things like Illustrious stand IV over write a Flame Disiples Aura of fire I and Aura of Health III ? Is it because they offer a AOE effect or something else?
    Illustrious Stand is an Aura, it just doesn't have "Aura" in its name.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Quick question: Are Hero's Resolve and Drulkar's Wrath/Volcano meant to be linked? With my hybrid dragon I can do damage with GR and a Primal Cast Volcano/DW that are roughly equivalent with Volcano usually doing a bit more damage depending on the mob. Using Hero's Resolve automatically puts two of my most powerful attacks out of commission (albeit for a short period of time). But in fights that I would actually use Hero's Resolve, seconds on a cooldown matter. Don't really understand why an ability and two spells share a timer especially since Hero's Resolve affects attacks only and not spells.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    I believe the devs consider these to be 'epic' abilities and that they all share timers. I think Shield of gold also falls into this category. In short, yes they are meant to. I think the idea is that you would choose the most appropriate, rather than just firing off all your most powerful attacks.
    --- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
    Demonslaying since July 2004

  19. #39

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    I find that Withered State conflicting with the Blight Poison tech is a problem. Blight spells are supposed to be all about DoTs, so none of them should be conflicting with each other.
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  20. #40

    Default Re: Spell / Effect Conflicts

    Going to switch Blight Poison to use the "poison" keyword instead of "dot_blight".
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

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