Dragons: A theorem

[Exrage]

Draconic lore tends to vary based upon the cultures that had mythology for them, what strikes me as interesting is the similarities they all have and I'm wondering what I can put down that fits Istarian lore for my eventual RP on order. I'd like to put down a few thoughts and see what the community thinks, please if you have questions or comments- or find it at odds with the Istarian lore- please feel free to amend, comment, or even expand!

Dragons- Beginning to End: Primal energy, translated into the "power of origin(creation)" is what every dragon claims as a birthright. I believe dragons, due largely to their concept as "world creators/shapers" take on elements or aspects that define the world as they shape and create it, becoming personifications of the elements themselves. Through age and understanding, dragons temper themselves and their natures to a sort of "ascension" depicted as follows:

Elemental Dragons- these are the basic dragons found in nature, including "fire" and "water," to metallic "bronze" and "gold," and even states like "cold" and "light." All dragons are born as elementals, and these elements can be combined just as any physical element can be combined in nature. ("Cold" and "Water" forming "Ice").

Planar Dragons- Dragons will refine their element until they can not only master and create it, but use it to transcend to another plane of existence entirely. Dragons in this state become corporeal, escaping the grips of time and space, and are capable of creating entire realities within their planes of existence.

"Demigod" Dragons- As planar dragons define their planes of existence, they eventually cross into other planes of existence and incorporate other aspects into their own. Planar dragons who can influence other planes add further definition to the existences they can create, mastering the art of true creation itself.

Primal Manifestations (Appearances):
"Primal" energy, or the creation element the dragon is an essence of, would look differently though function similarly as each dragon performed a similar function. A breath attack from a "fire" dragon would appear so, where as an "ice" dragon would breath ice or air cold enough to function similarly. Crystalline or metallic dragons would have breath weapons but would breath fire akin to the colors of their origin (like rubbing two emeralds together, super hot and would be green).

Hoards of Gold and Silver, and why Dragons love them:
Iconically a dragon is found laying in a dank cave upon troves of treasure, to be looted by the nearest band of adventurers brave enough to take on a beast of legend. It is believed dragons sleep on mountains of gold as gold and silver are ideal conduits for energy, like electricity down a wire. If primal energy were to flow and radiate from within a dragon, a hoard would be able to help regulate a level of comfort relative to the size of the dragon keeping it. Therefore as dragons age and grow larger, they require larger hoards to keep regular. It can also be viewed that being a conduit for primal energies, the gold and silver can be used as a catalyst for draconic abilities, both physical and magical.

The Size of Things: Dragons will continue to grow until the day they die, amassing more power and knowledge as they become more and more affluent with their creation element until eventually ascending or becoming consumed by it (i.e. spontaneous combustion, turning into a statue of the various elements, etc). Therefore dragons, though they may live hundreds or thousands of years, have a yearning for knowledge and power, but to go at a reasonable pace.

What Would Fire Deem Important?: So you are the embodiment of an aspect, you will live for thousands of years, and you want to know yourself and how you fit into the world to better control the both of them... but what will you spend your millenia doing? I would imagine each aspect would find certain things appealing- and all of them would value their mobility and good health above all... imagine being held back because you lost an arm or a wing to a foolish conquest. I also imagine "broods" or the bloodline of a dragon would improve their understanding of themselves and would be very important to a dragon, while they will go through phases of "expansion" where they want to live with and understand other elements, you would feel more akin with your fiery brethren when tackling a problem over fire.

[Arzel Rashemi]

Draconic lore tends to vary based upon the cultures that had mythology for them, what strikes me as interesting is the similarities they all have and I'm wondering what I can put down that fits Istarian lore for my eventual RP on order. I'd like to put down a few thoughts and see what the community thinks, please if you have questions or comments- or find it at odds with the Istarian lore- please feel free to amend, comment, or even expand!

Dragons- Beginning to End: Primal energy, translated into the "power of origin(creation)" is what every dragon claims as a birthright. I believe dragons, due largely to their concept as "world creators/shapers" take on elements or aspects that define the world as they shape and create it, becoming personifications of the elements themselves. Through age and understanding, dragons temper themselves and their natures to a sort of "ascension" depicted as follows:

Elemental Dragons- these are the basic dragons found in nature, including "fire" and "water," to metallic "bronze" and "gold," and even states like "cold" and "light." All dragons are born as elementals, and these elements can be combined just as any physical element can be combined in nature. ("Cold" and "Water" forming "Ice").

Planar Dragons- Dragons will refine their element until they can not only master and create it, but use it to transcend to another plane of existence entirely. Dragons in this state become corporeal, escaping the grips of time and space, and are capable of creating entire realities within their planes of existence.

"Demigod" Dragons- As planar dragons define their planes of existence, they eventually cross into other planes of existence and incorporate other aspects into their own. Planar dragons who can influence other planes add further definition to the existences they can create, mastering the art of true creation itself.

Primal Manifestations (Appearances):
"Primal" energy, or the creation element the dragon is an essence of, would look differently though function similarly as each dragon performed a similar function. A breath attack from a "fire" dragon would appear so, where as an "ice" dragon would breath ice or air cold enough to function similarly. Crystalline or metallic dragons would have breath weapons but would breath fire akin to the colors of their origin (like rubbing two emeralds together, super hot and would be green).

Hoards of Gold and Silver, and why Dragons love them:
Iconically a dragon is found laying in a dank cave upon troves of treasure, to be looted by the nearest band of adventurers brave enough to take on a beast of legend. It is believed dragons sleep on mountains of gold as gold and silver are ideal conduits for energy, like electricity down a wire. If primal energy were to flow and radiate from within a dragon, a hoard would be able to help regulate a level of comfort relative to the size of the dragon keeping it. Therefore as dragons age and grow larger, they require larger hoards to keep regular. It can also be viewed that being a conduit for primal energies, the gold and silver can be used as a catalyst for draconic abilities, both physical and magical.

The Size of Things: Dragons will continue to grow until the day they die, amassing more power and knowledge as they become more and more affluent with their creation element until eventually ascending or becoming consumed by it (i.e. spontaneous combustion, turning into a statue of the various elements, etc). Therefore dragons, though they may live hundreds or thousands of years, have a yearning for knowledge and power, but to go at a reasonable pace.

What Would Fire Deem Important?: So you are the embodiment of an aspect, you will live for thousands of years, and you want to know yourself and how you fit into the world to better control the both of them... but what will you spend your millenia doing? I would imagine each aspect would find certain things appealing- and all of them would value their mobility and good health above all... imagine being held back because you lost an arm or a wing to a foolish conquest. I also imagine "broods" or the bloodline of a dragon would improve their understanding of themselves and would be very important to a dragon, while they will go through phases of "expansion" where they want to live with and understand other elements, you would feel more akin with your fiery brethren when tackling a problem over fire.

I like your theories and you are certainly welcome to keep them as your own, afterall people are free to do what they want. Know however that they do fly in the face of the already established ingame lore of dragons...

As I understand it its something like this...

Dragons are formed from a mixture of fire element and primal essence derived from Drulkar who is their god.. and as I understand it belongs primarily to the Fire Element.

Primal magic/energy is a a more raw form than the more specialised magics that the younger races wield... Dragon argues theirs is stronger as its purer and bipeds argue that dragons wield a primitive magic.

And we know gifted dragons don't die from old age.

Now if you are talking about dragons from other worlds or planes of existence then there isn't any such established lore that I know of, so theories and creative spectrum are wide open there.

[Exrage]

Dragons are formed from a mixture of fire element and primal essence derived from Drulkar who is their god.. and as I understand it belongs primarily to the Fire Element.

So it would be okay to state Istarian dragons are essentially a hybrid of Fire, and that Drulkar ascended to that of a planar (or already demi-god) when he created the Istarian dragons and brought them into the world? Mind you this is just one theory that I want to RP as a possible draconic belief, nothing more.

Primal magic/energy is a a more raw form than the more specialised magics that the younger races wield... Dragon argues theirs is stronger as its purer and bipeds argue that dragons wield a primitive magic.

Well you could state the energy from creation is as raw as it gets, and humanity in it's simplistic way believes it can be improved upon by adding outside influences to refine it. A dragon, I would imagine, wouldn't need external forces as they develop their understanding of the basic principles and interactions of the element they can alter it's properties much like one can put a kink in a hose to make it spray harder and faster, or add properties to it that allows it to accelerate cellular development and heal a wound?

And we know gifted dragons don't die from old age.

Of course being gifted changed many things for the dragon race, but to a race that lived already for thousands of years- the past twenty two wouldn't even be a blink to them. The point being at this point in the timeline they wouldn't have lost or changed much from their way of living or things their culture values.

Now if you are talking about dragons from other worlds or planes of existence then there isn't any such established lore that I know of, so theories and creative spectrum are wide open there.

Well that I figured as much as I read the Istarian timeline. There's talk of the dragons opening a portal to the "realm of fire," and "closing it behind them" afterward but the real question is what would you define as the "realm of fire" and why would the highest level of dragonhood choose it over existence on Istaria?

My idea being that being able to exist on the "plane of fire" would have the prerequisite of becoming as fire itself. Once the ability is obtained dragons in their element would flourish and have greater ability to shape and define as well as freeing themselves from much of the burdens normal reality would place on them. A pseudo "heaven", but one that also has a long-term goal of ascending even further to explain why it's not common for a dragon once reaching the "plane of fire" to simply return to Istaria, despite being possible and done in the past.

[Raptress]

So it would be okay to state Istarian dragons are essentially a hybrid of Fire, and that Drulkar ascended to that of a planar (or already demi-god) when he created the Istarian dragons and brought them into the world? Mind you this is just one theory that I want to RP as a possible draconic belief, nothing more.

Using it as a sort of "religion" actually sounds fairly original to me. I imagine that most dragons wouldn't take too kindly to it though, as many are very proud of their connection to Drulkar and the Realm of Fire. Some find the idea of non-fire-elemental dragons to be distasteful.

I also think it is worth noting that I'm pretty sure Drulkar did not create the Realm of Fire, he was simply one of the greatest inhabitants. Now, exactly what allowed him to be so much greater than other dragons, I'm not sure.

Well you could state the energy from creation is as raw as it gets, and humanity in it's simplistic way believes it can be improved upon by adding outside influences to refine it.

Primal magic is raw magic, essentially, and it is a part of everything in Istaria--because Istaria is on the Realm of the Prime. Dragons are vastly more in tune with the Prime than other races, but they did not create Istaria. Istaria was already there before Drulkar brought the dragons to it. I believe the reason why dragons are so attuned to Prime is because they arrived in Istaria as spirits of pure fire, and in order to live on Istaria, they needed to fashion bodies of Prime.

There is no magic without Prime magic. What the bipedal races do is not to add outside influence, but to splinter Prime itself into more specialized (and according to dragons, inferior) magics. You get Ice magic by filtering out all the other types of magic that Prime contains, for example.

Of course being gifted changed many things for the dragon race, but to a race that lived already for thousands of years- the past twenty two wouldn't even be a blink to them. The point being at this point in the timeline they wouldn't have lost or changed much from their way of living or things their culture values.

The dragons' inability to age has nothing to do with the rise of the Gifted and everything to do with the destruction (or rather relocation) of the Sleeper--an event that occurred about 300 years ago. We also don't definitively know how long Istarian dragons could live before that. There is evidence that they could live for hundreds of years, but the Great Schism happened only 500 years ago, and both Helian and Lunus are dead.

The destruction of the Sleeper essentially caused dragons to be stuck in time. Now, whether that effectively means they are immortal is not totally clear, but they do not age or grow without the interference of the Rites. There is player belief that dragons must age at the very beginning of their lives, to develop to the point of the "hatchling" dragon that the game puts players in control of, but after that point they become stuck and grow no more.

Well that I figured as much as I read the Istarian timeline. There's talk of the dragons opening a portal to the "realm of fire," and "closing it behind them" afterward but the real question is what would you define as the "realm of fire" and why would the highest level of dragonhood choose it over existence on Istaria?

Dragons originally hailed from the Realm of Fire--which is just one of the Realms that exist that for all types of splinter magics. E.g., there is also a Realm of Ice, a Realm of Spirit, a Realm of Energy, etc.

The Realm of Fire is also where Drulkar resides. A dragon would have to go there in order to be in his presence and it seems pretty likely to me that if you were in the Realm of your Patriarch and in the form most natural to your kind (fire), you might not want to leave either. :P

There is also a chance that it is difficult to return. One would have to shed their Prime form--their body--in order to exist on the Realm of Fire, I would think. Perhaps remaking that body in order to return to the Prime is not the easiest thing to do.

My idea being that being able to exist on the "plane of fire" would have the prerequisite of becoming as fire itself.

Dragons already were spirits of fire. That's their natural form. It's the Prime-based dragon that's been specialized.

[Exrage]

Using it as a sort of "religion" actually sounds fairly original to me. I imagine that most dragons wouldn't take too kindly to it though, as many are very proud of their connection to Drulkar and the Realm of Fire. Some find the idea of non-fire-elemental dragons to be distasteful.

As it should be, if only fire based dragons and nothing else exist (or will exist in the future) in Istaria. Most ideology from draconic lore stems from a sort of "brood" mentality- putting lineage on the same level as most caste systems and it's all about one's relation to so-and-so who happens to be the greatest _______. On a side note if you have a true "water" based dragon lineage appear, what would the natural reaction from the current dragon-kind be?

I also think it is worth noting that I'm pretty sure Drulkar did not create the Realm of Fire, he was simply one of the greatest inhabitants. Now, exactly what allowed him to be so much greater than other dragons, I'm not sure.

Still doesn't debunk the "planar dragon" hypothesis, it leaves room for their being a greater "fire element" higher than him but also leaves open the possibility for him to ascend higher, or even that he may be surpassed. Now that may be a snowball's chance in hell, but I'm more interested in the plausibility than the possibility as I like to have a firm grasp on in-game facts before delving into the RP.

Primal magic is raw magic, essentially, and it is a part of everything in Istaria--because Istaria is on the Realm of the Prime. Dragons are vastly more in tune with the Prime than other races, but they did not create Istaria. Istaria was already there before Drulkar brought the dragons to it. I believe the reason why dragons are so attuned to Prime is because they arrived in Istaria as spirits of pure fire, and in order to live on Istaria, they needed to fashion bodies of Prime.

Ah I really like that analogy and view on creation and it's role, even if dragons are mere inhabitants instead of it's creators. So it wouldn't be so far-fetched as to state that the realm of the Prime may have been a haven for dragon kind as a nesting ground before ascending back into the realm of fire? Or possibly that fire "invaded" or crossed into it and brought about some sort of change?

There is no magic without Prime magic. What the bipedal races do is not to add outside influence, but to splinter Prime itself into more specialized (and according to dragons, inferior) magics. You get Ice magic by filtering out all the other types of magic that Prime contains, for example.

Another really great analogy, so it's essentially like taking a beam of light and refracting it into different colors through a prism instead of just letting it shine naturally? I would agree with that, as to a dragon who can bend and shape the full spectrum at will the concept of blocking everything else except the nature and power of one aspect would be a bit backwards.

The dragons' inability to age has nothing to do with the rise of the Gifted and everything to do with the destruction (or rather relocation) of the Sleeper--an event that occurred about 300 years ago. We also don't definitively know how long Istarian dragons could live before that. There is evidence that they could live for hundreds of years, but the Great Schism happened only 500 years ago, and both Helian and Lunus are dead.

A valid point, but it doesn't stress how they died- naturally or by external causes leaving it open to interpretation. I merely filled that hole with draconic lore from mythology and other lore regarding dragon lifespans and origins.

The destruction of the Sleeper essentially caused dragons to be stuck in time. Now, whether that effectively means they are immortal is not totally clear, but they do not age or grow without the interference of the Rites. There is player belief that dragons must age at the very beginning of their lives, to develop to the point of the "hatchling" dragon that the game puts players in control of, but after that point they become stuck and grow no more.

It would make a good argument and support the mechanics I guess. Perhaps some elaboration into the physics and why would be nice. I would extrapolate that their "fire" essence was altered, though they may exist on a plane where time flows their essence while trapped in another existence would remain constant. As one repairs or alters the other existence (or realm) the physical body would suddenly advance until it hits another distortion.

Dragons originally hailed from the Realm of Fire--which is just one of the Realms that exist that for all types of splinter magics. E.g., there is also a Realm of Ice, a Realm of Spirit, a Realm of Energy, etc.

I would ask the question if dragons exist from one realm, why not any (or rather all) could exist from the other realms?

The Realm of Fire is also where Drulkar resides. A dragon would have to go there in order to be in his presence and it seems pretty likely to me that if you were in the Realm of your Patriarch and in the form most natural to your kind (fire), you might not want to leave either. :P

There is also a chance that it is difficult to return. One would have to shed their Prime form--their body--in order to exist on the Realm of Fire, I would think. Perhaps remaking that body in order to return to the Prime is not the easiest thing to do.

Perhaps the flow only goes one way, unless you obtain a level of ability similar to that of Drulkar... or perhaps it's like you stated- that the physical form must be recreated to return to the realm of the Prime. Who knows... but having ideas out there and seeing where the mainstream dragon belief lies is fun in and of itself.

Dragons already were spirits of fire. That's their natural form. It's the Prime-based dragon that's been specialized.

Well you would have to wonder at what the repercussions to that would be, to take something and alter it to exist in a place it wasn't originally adapted to usually has side effects and handicaps that must be dealt with at some point.

Or perhaps the specialization is more of an augmentation to their given abilities over fire, and will develop their abilities over the other magical essences to better prepare for engaging the other elements? Maybe there is a function in taking a spirit of fire and infusing it into a primal form that allows it to complete something in the realm of the Prime?

I'd like to put down a few thoughts and see what the community thinks, please if you have questions or comments- or find it at odds with the Istarian lore- please feel free to amend, comment, or even expand

I like the hypothesis and really enjoyed how they tied in with the Istarian lore you two. Keep it up! Hopefully I can take enough to reach a consensus and have a really solid RP base that everyone can agree to and play with, and that's why I like hashing out ideas with everyone before hitting a snag later.

[Raptress]

As it should be, if only fire based dragons and nothing else exist (or will exist in the future) in Istaria. Most ideology from draconic lore stems from a sort of "brood" mentality- putting lineage on the same level as most caste systems and it's all about one's relation to so-and-so who happens to be the greatest _______. On a side note if you have a true "water" based dragon lineage appear, what would the natural reaction from the current dragon-kind be?

Depends really on whether you are asking for what the reactions of player dragons would be or what the reactions of lore dragons would be. Because there is nothing but fire dragons in Istaria's lore, the lore never addresses what Istarian dragons would think about dragons of other elements--they simply do not exist in the lore.

Most players however tend to be accepting of any old thing that pops up in RP, regardless of whether that creature exists at all in the game lore. (I am not saying this as criticism, merely as observation. Please treat it as such.)

Personally, I imagine that real Istarian dragons would be rather disgusted at the thought of dragons from other elements and would almost certainly believe them inferior given the ego that dragons tend to have. "Waterblood" is an insult in lore already; just imagine if a normal dragon met another dragon that actually had waterblood. :P

Still doesn't debunk the "planar dragon" hypothesis, it leaves room for their being a greater "fire element" higher than him but also leaves open the possibility for him to ascend higher, or even that he may be surpassed. Now that may be a snowball's chance in hell, but I'm more interested in the plausibility than the possibility as I like to have a firm grasp on in-game facts before delving into the RP.

There's not a terrible lot of really solid lore on Drulkar and the Plane of Fire to my knowledge. I don't really see any reason why a dragon couldn't believe that there was a way to ascend to the level of Drulkar or even beyond. However that belief may be met with opposition by dragons that are very "religious" about Drulkar and his greatness.

Ah I really like that analogy and view on creation and it's role, even if dragons are mere inhabitants instead of it's creators. So it wouldn't be so far-fetched as to state that the realm of the Prime may have been a haven for dragon kind as a nesting ground before ascending back into the realm of fire? Or possibly that fire "invaded" or crossed into it and brought about some sort of change?

If there's any lore regarding exactly why Drulkar brought dragons to the Realm of the Prime, I haven't seen it, so I don't see why a character couldn't believe it was for those reasons.

Another really great analogy, so it's essentially like taking a beam of light and refracting it into different colors through a prism instead of just letting it shine naturally? I would agree with that, as to a dragon who can bend and shape the full spectrum at will the concept of blocking everything else except the nature and power of one aspect would be a bit backwards.

Yup. Exactly why most dragons think it's silly of bipeds to use splinter-magics.

A valid point, but it doesn't stress how they died- naturally or by external causes leaving it open to interpretation. I merely filled that hole with draconic lore from mythology and other lore regarding dragon lifespans and origins.

It is indeed open to interpretation. I was just pointing out what my interpretation was.

It would make a good argument and support the mechanics I guess. Perhaps some elaboration into the physics and why would be nice. I would extrapolate that their "fire" essence was altered, though they may exist on a plane where time flows their essence while trapped in another existence would remain constant. As one repairs or alters the other existence (or realm) the physical body would suddenly advance until it hits another distortion.

You'd have to ask the devs about that one, I'm afraid. The Rite doesn't really get into the mechanics of the "why" dragons are stuck in an ageless state, simply that they are and what events transpired to cause it.

I would ask the question if dragons exist from one realm, why not any (or rather all) could exist from the other realms?

All dragons in the lore came from or descended from dragons that came from the Realm of Fire, led to the Prime by Drulkar. A dragon from any other realm would be stepping completely outside of game lore. That is not to say it isn't possible, just that it simply is not supported by game lore.

I would also question exactly why a being that is not from the Realm of Fire would choose to take the form so similar to that of Istarian dragons and not simply appear as a totally unique sort of creature.

[Kesqui]

I would ask the question if dragons exist from one realm, why not any (or rather all) could exist from the other realms?

I'd be much more inclined to think that the other realms would produce their own native creatures which wouldn't be dragons - for example, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that, say, Satyrs and Dryads are the children of the realm of Nature.