Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 52

Thread: Dragons: A theorem

  1. #1

    Default Dragons: A theorem

    Draconic lore tends to vary based upon the cultures that had mythology for them, what strikes me as interesting is the similarities they all have and I'm wondering what I can put down that fits Istarian lore for my eventual RP on order. I'd like to put down a few thoughts and see what the community thinks, please if you have questions or comments- or find it at odds with the Istarian lore- please feel free to amend, comment, or even expand!

    Dragons- Beginning to End: Primal energy, translated into the "power of origin(creation)" is what every dragon claims as a birthright. I believe dragons, due largely to their concept as "world creators/shapers" take on elements or aspects that define the world as they shape and create it, becoming personifications of the elements themselves. Through age and understanding, dragons temper themselves and their natures to a sort of "ascension" depicted as follows:

    Elemental Dragons- these are the basic dragons found in nature, including "fire" and "water," to metallic "bronze" and "gold," and even states like "cold" and "light." All dragons are born as elementals, and these elements can be combined just as any physical element can be combined in nature. ("Cold" and "Water" forming "Ice").

    Planar Dragons- Dragons will refine their element until they can not only master and create it, but use it to transcend to another plane of existence entirely. Dragons in this state become corporeal, escaping the grips of time and space, and are capable of creating entire realities within their planes of existence.

    "Demigod" Dragons- As planar dragons define their planes of existence, they eventually cross into other planes of existence and incorporate other aspects into their own. Planar dragons who can influence other planes add further definition to the existences they can create, mastering the art of true creation itself.

    Primal Manifestations (Appearances):
    "Primal" energy, or the creation element the dragon is an essence of, would look differently though function similarly as each dragon performed a similar function. A breath attack from a "fire" dragon would appear so, where as an "ice" dragon would breath ice or air cold enough to function similarly. Crystalline or metallic dragons would have breath weapons but would breath fire akin to the colors of their origin (like rubbing two emeralds together, super hot and would be green).

    Hoards of Gold and Silver, and why Dragons love them:
    Iconically a dragon is found laying in a dank cave upon troves of treasure, to be looted by the nearest band of adventurers brave enough to take on a beast of legend. It is believed dragons sleep on mountains of gold as gold and silver are ideal conduits for energy, like electricity down a wire. If primal energy were to flow and radiate from within a dragon, a hoard would be able to help regulate a level of comfort relative to the size of the dragon keeping it. Therefore as dragons age and grow larger, they require larger hoards to keep regular. It can also be viewed that being a conduit for primal energies, the gold and silver can be used as a catalyst for draconic abilities, both physical and magical.

    The Size of Things: Dragons will continue to grow until the day they die, amassing more power and knowledge as they become more and more affluent with their creation element until eventually ascending or becoming consumed by it (i.e. spontaneous combustion, turning into a statue of the various elements, etc). Therefore dragons, though they may live hundreds or thousands of years, have a yearning for knowledge and power, but to go at a reasonable pace.

    What Would Fire Deem Important?: So you are the embodiment of an aspect, you will live for thousands of years, and you want to know yourself and how you fit into the world to better control the both of them... but what will you spend your millenia doing? I would imagine each aspect would find certain things appealing- and all of them would value their mobility and good health above all... imagine being held back because you lost an arm or a wing to a foolish conquest. I also imagine "broods" or the bloodline of a dragon would improve their understanding of themselves and would be very important to a dragon, while they will go through phases of "expansion" where they want to live with and understand other elements, you would feel more akin with your fiery brethren when tackling a problem over fire.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    Draconic lore tends to vary based upon the cultures that had mythology for them, what strikes me as interesting is the similarities they all have and I'm wondering what I can put down that fits Istarian lore for my eventual RP on order. I'd like to put down a few thoughts and see what the community thinks, please if you have questions or comments- or find it at odds with the Istarian lore- please feel free to amend, comment, or even expand!

    Dragons- Beginning to End: Primal energy, translated into the "power of origin(creation)" is what every dragon claims as a birthright. I believe dragons, due largely to their concept as "world creators/shapers" take on elements or aspects that define the world as they shape and create it, becoming personifications of the elements themselves. Through age and understanding, dragons temper themselves and their natures to a sort of "ascension" depicted as follows:

    Elemental Dragons- these are the basic dragons found in nature, including "fire" and "water," to metallic "bronze" and "gold," and even states like "cold" and "light." All dragons are born as elementals, and these elements can be combined just as any physical element can be combined in nature. ("Cold" and "Water" forming "Ice").

    Planar Dragons- Dragons will refine their element until they can not only master and create it, but use it to transcend to another plane of existence entirely. Dragons in this state become corporeal, escaping the grips of time and space, and are capable of creating entire realities within their planes of existence.

    "Demigod" Dragons- As planar dragons define their planes of existence, they eventually cross into other planes of existence and incorporate other aspects into their own. Planar dragons who can influence other planes add further definition to the existences they can create, mastering the art of true creation itself.

    Primal Manifestations (Appearances):
    "Primal" energy, or the creation element the dragon is an essence of, would look differently though function similarly as each dragon performed a similar function. A breath attack from a "fire" dragon would appear so, where as an "ice" dragon would breath ice or air cold enough to function similarly. Crystalline or metallic dragons would have breath weapons but would breath fire akin to the colors of their origin (like rubbing two emeralds together, super hot and would be green).

    Hoards of Gold and Silver, and why Dragons love them:
    Iconically a dragon is found laying in a dank cave upon troves of treasure, to be looted by the nearest band of adventurers brave enough to take on a beast of legend. It is believed dragons sleep on mountains of gold as gold and silver are ideal conduits for energy, like electricity down a wire. If primal energy were to flow and radiate from within a dragon, a hoard would be able to help regulate a level of comfort relative to the size of the dragon keeping it. Therefore as dragons age and grow larger, they require larger hoards to keep regular. It can also be viewed that being a conduit for primal energies, the gold and silver can be used as a catalyst for draconic abilities, both physical and magical.

    The Size of Things: Dragons will continue to grow until the day they die, amassing more power and knowledge as they become more and more affluent with their creation element until eventually ascending or becoming consumed by it (i.e. spontaneous combustion, turning into a statue of the various elements, etc). Therefore dragons, though they may live hundreds or thousands of years, have a yearning for knowledge and power, but to go at a reasonable pace.

    What Would Fire Deem Important?: So you are the embodiment of an aspect, you will live for thousands of years, and you want to know yourself and how you fit into the world to better control the both of them... but what will you spend your millenia doing? I would imagine each aspect would find certain things appealing- and all of them would value their mobility and good health above all... imagine being held back because you lost an arm or a wing to a foolish conquest. I also imagine "broods" or the bloodline of a dragon would improve their understanding of themselves and would be very important to a dragon, while they will go through phases of "expansion" where they want to live with and understand other elements, you would feel more akin with your fiery brethren when tackling a problem over fire.
    I like your theories and you are certainly welcome to keep them as your own, afterall people are free to do what they want. Know however that they do fly in the face of the already established ingame lore of dragons...

    As I understand it its something like this...

    Dragons are formed from a mixture of fire element and primal essence derived from Drulkar who is their god.. and as I understand it belongs primarily to the Fire Element.

    Primal magic/energy is a a more raw form than the more specialised magics that the younger races wield... Dragon argues theirs is stronger as its purer and bipeds argue that dragons wield a primitive magic.

    And we know gifted dragons don't die from old age.

    Now if you are talking about dragons from other worlds or planes of existence then there isn't any such established lore that I know of, so theories and creative spectrum are wide open there.


    You see an Ice Wall Corner, I see a Tardis.
    "

    "Pen Pineapple Apple Pen"


  3. #3

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    Dragons are formed from a mixture of fire element and primal essence derived from Drulkar who is their god.. and as I understand it belongs primarily to the Fire Element.
    So it would be okay to state Istarian dragons are essentially a hybrid of Fire, and that Drulkar ascended to that of a planar (or already demi-god) when he created the Istarian dragons and brought them into the world? Mind you this is just one theory that I want to RP as a possible draconic belief, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    Primal magic/energy is a a more raw form than the more specialised magics that the younger races wield... Dragon argues theirs is stronger as its purer and bipeds argue that dragons wield a primitive magic.
    Well you could state the energy from creation is as raw as it gets, and humanity in it's simplistic way believes it can be improved upon by adding outside influences to refine it. A dragon, I would imagine, wouldn't need external forces as they develop their understanding of the basic principles and interactions of the element they can alter it's properties much like one can put a kink in a hose to make it spray harder and faster, or add properties to it that allows it to accelerate cellular development and heal a wound?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    And we know gifted dragons don't die from old age.
    Of course being gifted changed many things for the dragon race, but to a race that lived already for thousands of years- the past twenty two wouldn't even be a blink to them. The point being at this point in the timeline they wouldn't have lost or changed much from their way of living or things their culture values.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arzel Rashemi View Post
    Now if you are talking about dragons from other worlds or planes of existence then there isn't any such established lore that I know of, so theories and creative spectrum are wide open there.
    Well that I figured as much as I read the Istarian timeline. There's talk of the dragons opening a portal to the "realm of fire," and "closing it behind them" afterward but the real question is what would you define as the "realm of fire" and why would the highest level of dragonhood choose it over existence on Istaria?

    My idea being that being able to exist on the "plane of fire" would have the prerequisite of becoming as fire itself. Once the ability is obtained dragons in their element would flourish and have greater ability to shape and define as well as freeing themselves from much of the burdens normal reality would place on them. A pseudo "heaven", but one that also has a long-term goal of ascending even further to explain why it's not common for a dragon once reaching the "plane of fire" to simply return to Istaria, despite being possible and done in the past.

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    So it would be okay to state Istarian dragons are essentially a hybrid of Fire, and that Drulkar ascended to that of a planar (or already demi-god) when he created the Istarian dragons and brought them into the world? Mind you this is just one theory that I want to RP as a possible draconic belief, nothing more.
    Using it as a sort of "religion" actually sounds fairly original to me. I imagine that most dragons wouldn't take too kindly to it though, as many are very proud of their connection to Drulkar and the Realm of Fire. Some find the idea of non-fire-elemental dragons to be distasteful.

    I also think it is worth noting that I'm pretty sure Drulkar did not create the Realm of Fire, he was simply one of the greatest inhabitants. Now, exactly what allowed him to be so much greater than other dragons, I'm not sure.

    Well you could state the energy from creation is as raw as it gets, and humanity in it's simplistic way believes it can be improved upon by adding outside influences to refine it.
    Primal magic is raw magic, essentially, and it is a part of everything in Istaria--because Istaria is on the Realm of the Prime. Dragons are vastly more in tune with the Prime than other races, but they did not create Istaria. Istaria was already there before Drulkar brought the dragons to it. I believe the reason why dragons are so attuned to Prime is because they arrived in Istaria as spirits of pure fire, and in order to live on Istaria, they needed to fashion bodies of Prime.

    There is no magic without Prime magic. What the bipedal races do is not to add outside influence, but to splinter Prime itself into more specialized (and according to dragons, inferior) magics. You get Ice magic by filtering out all the other types of magic that Prime contains, for example.


    Of course being gifted changed many things for the dragon race, but to a race that lived already for thousands of years- the past twenty two wouldn't even be a blink to them. The point being at this point in the timeline they wouldn't have lost or changed much from their way of living or things their culture values.
    The dragons' inability to age has nothing to do with the rise of the Gifted and everything to do with the destruction (or rather relocation) of the Sleeper--an event that occurred about 300 years ago. We also don't definitively know how long Istarian dragons could live before that. There is evidence that they could live for hundreds of years, but the Great Schism happened only 500 years ago, and both Helian and Lunus are dead.

    The destruction of the Sleeper essentially caused dragons to be stuck in time. Now, whether that effectively means they are immortal is not totally clear, but they do not age or grow without the interference of the Rites. There is player belief that dragons must age at the very beginning of their lives, to develop to the point of the "hatchling" dragon that the game puts players in control of, but after that point they become stuck and grow no more.


    Well that I figured as much as I read the Istarian timeline. There's talk of the dragons opening a portal to the "realm of fire," and "closing it behind them" afterward but the real question is what would you define as the "realm of fire" and why would the highest level of dragonhood choose it over existence on Istaria?
    Dragons originally hailed from the Realm of Fire--which is just one of the Realms that exist that for all types of splinter magics. E.g., there is also a Realm of Ice, a Realm of Spirit, a Realm of Energy, etc.

    The Realm of Fire is also where Drulkar resides. A dragon would have to go there in order to be in his presence and it seems pretty likely to me that if you were in the Realm of your Patriarch and in the form most natural to your kind (fire), you might not want to leave either. :P

    There is also a chance that it is difficult to return. One would have to shed their Prime form--their body--in order to exist on the Realm of Fire, I would think. Perhaps remaking that body in order to return to the Prime is not the easiest thing to do.

    My idea being that being able to exist on the "plane of fire" would have the prerequisite of becoming as fire itself.
    Dragons already were spirits of fire. That's their natural form. It's the Prime-based dragon that's been specialized.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  5. #5

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Using it as a sort of "religion" actually sounds fairly original to me. I imagine that most dragons wouldn't take too kindly to it though, as many are very proud of their connection to Drulkar and the Realm of Fire. Some find the idea of non-fire-elemental dragons to be distasteful.
    As it should be, if only fire based dragons and nothing else exist (or will exist in the future) in Istaria. Most ideology from draconic lore stems from a sort of "brood" mentality- putting lineage on the same level as most caste systems and it's all about one's relation to so-and-so who happens to be the greatest _______. On a side note if you have a true "water" based dragon lineage appear, what would the natural reaction from the current dragon-kind be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    I also think it is worth noting that I'm pretty sure Drulkar did not create the Realm of Fire, he was simply one of the greatest inhabitants. Now, exactly what allowed him to be so much greater than other dragons, I'm not sure.
    Still doesn't debunk the "planar dragon" hypothesis, it leaves room for their being a greater "fire element" higher than him but also leaves open the possibility for him to ascend higher, or even that he may be surpassed. Now that may be a snowball's chance in hell, but I'm more interested in the plausibility than the possibility as I like to have a firm grasp on in-game facts before delving into the RP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Primal magic is raw magic, essentially, and it is a part of everything in Istaria--because Istaria is on the Realm of the Prime. Dragons are vastly more in tune with the Prime than other races, but they did not create Istaria. Istaria was already there before Drulkar brought the dragons to it. I believe the reason why dragons are so attuned to Prime is because they arrived in Istaria as spirits of pure fire, and in order to live on Istaria, they needed to fashion bodies of Prime.
    Ah I really like that analogy and view on creation and it's role, even if dragons are mere inhabitants instead of it's creators. So it wouldn't be so far-fetched as to state that the realm of the Prime may have been a haven for dragon kind as a nesting ground before ascending back into the realm of fire? Or possibly that fire "invaded" or crossed into it and brought about some sort of change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    There is no magic without Prime magic. What the bipedal races do is not to add outside influence, but to splinter Prime itself into more specialized (and according to dragons, inferior) magics. You get Ice magic by filtering out all the other types of magic that Prime contains, for example.
    Another really great analogy, so it's essentially like taking a beam of light and refracting it into different colors through a prism instead of just letting it shine naturally? I would agree with that, as to a dragon who can bend and shape the full spectrum at will the concept of blocking everything else except the nature and power of one aspect would be a bit backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    The dragons' inability to age has nothing to do with the rise of the Gifted and everything to do with the destruction (or rather relocation) of the Sleeper--an event that occurred about 300 years ago. We also don't definitively know how long Istarian dragons could live before that. There is evidence that they could live for hundreds of years, but the Great Schism happened only 500 years ago, and both Helian and Lunus are dead.
    A valid point, but it doesn't stress how they died- naturally or by external causes leaving it open to interpretation. I merely filled that hole with draconic lore from mythology and other lore regarding dragon lifespans and origins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    The destruction of the Sleeper essentially caused dragons to be stuck in time. Now, whether that effectively means they are immortal is not totally clear, but they do not age or grow without the interference of the Rites. There is player belief that dragons must age at the very beginning of their lives, to develop to the point of the "hatchling" dragon that the game puts players in control of, but after that point they become stuck and grow no more.
    It would make a good argument and support the mechanics I guess. Perhaps some elaboration into the physics and why would be nice. I would extrapolate that their "fire" essence was altered, though they may exist on a plane where time flows their essence while trapped in another existence would remain constant. As one repairs or alters the other existence (or realm) the physical body would suddenly advance until it hits another distortion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Dragons originally hailed from the Realm of Fire--which is just one of the Realms that exist that for all types of splinter magics. E.g., there is also a Realm of Ice, a Realm of Spirit, a Realm of Energy, etc.
    I would ask the question if dragons exist from one realm, why not any (or rather all) could exist from the other realms?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    The Realm of Fire is also where Drulkar resides. A dragon would have to go there in order to be in his presence and it seems pretty likely to me that if you were in the Realm of your Patriarch and in the form most natural to your kind (fire), you might not want to leave either. :P

    There is also a chance that it is difficult to return. One would have to shed their Prime form--their body--in order to exist on the Realm of Fire, I would think. Perhaps remaking that body in order to return to the Prime is not the easiest thing to do.
    Perhaps the flow only goes one way, unless you obtain a level of ability similar to that of Drulkar... or perhaps it's like you stated- that the physical form must be recreated to return to the realm of the Prime. Who knows... but having ideas out there and seeing where the mainstream dragon belief lies is fun in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Dragons already were spirits of fire. That's their natural form. It's the Prime-based dragon that's been specialized.
    Well you would have to wonder at what the repercussions to that would be, to take something and alter it to exist in a place it wasn't originally adapted to usually has side effects and handicaps that must be dealt with at some point.

    Or perhaps the specialization is more of an augmentation to their given abilities over fire, and will develop their abilities over the other magical essences to better prepare for engaging the other elements? Maybe there is a function in taking a spirit of fire and infusing it into a primal form that allows it to complete something in the realm of the Prime?

    I'd like to put down a few thoughts and see what the community thinks, please if you have questions or comments- or find it at odds with the Istarian lore- please feel free to amend, comment, or even expand
    I like the hypothesis and really enjoyed how they tied in with the Istarian lore you two. Keep it up! Hopefully I can take enough to reach a consensus and have a really solid RP base that everyone can agree to and play with, and that's why I like hashing out ideas with everyone before hitting a snag later.

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    As it should be, if only fire based dragons and nothing else exist (or will exist in the future) in Istaria. Most ideology from draconic lore stems from a sort of "brood" mentality- putting lineage on the same level as most caste systems and it's all about one's relation to so-and-so who happens to be the greatest _______. On a side note if you have a true "water" based dragon lineage appear, what would the natural reaction from the current dragon-kind be?
    Depends really on whether you are asking for what the reactions of player dragons would be or what the reactions of lore dragons would be. Because there is nothing but fire dragons in Istaria's lore, the lore never addresses what Istarian dragons would think about dragons of other elements--they simply do not exist in the lore.

    Most players however tend to be accepting of any old thing that pops up in RP, regardless of whether that creature exists at all in the game lore. (I am not saying this as criticism, merely as observation. Please treat it as such.)

    Personally, I imagine that real Istarian dragons would be rather disgusted at the thought of dragons from other elements and would almost certainly believe them inferior given the ego that dragons tend to have. "Waterblood" is an insult in lore already; just imagine if a normal dragon met another dragon that actually had waterblood. :P

    Still doesn't debunk the "planar dragon" hypothesis, it leaves room for their being a greater "fire element" higher than him but also leaves open the possibility for him to ascend higher, or even that he may be surpassed. Now that may be a snowball's chance in hell, but I'm more interested in the plausibility than the possibility as I like to have a firm grasp on in-game facts before delving into the RP.
    There's not a terrible lot of really solid lore on Drulkar and the Plane of Fire to my knowledge. I don't really see any reason why a dragon couldn't believe that there was a way to ascend to the level of Drulkar or even beyond. However that belief may be met with opposition by dragons that are very "religious" about Drulkar and his greatness.

    Ah I really like that analogy and view on creation and it's role, even if dragons are mere inhabitants instead of it's creators. So it wouldn't be so far-fetched as to state that the realm of the Prime may have been a haven for dragon kind as a nesting ground before ascending back into the realm of fire? Or possibly that fire "invaded" or crossed into it and brought about some sort of change?
    If there's any lore regarding exactly why Drulkar brought dragons to the Realm of the Prime, I haven't seen it, so I don't see why a character couldn't believe it was for those reasons.

    Another really great analogy, so it's essentially like taking a beam of light and refracting it into different colors through a prism instead of just letting it shine naturally? I would agree with that, as to a dragon who can bend and shape the full spectrum at will the concept of blocking everything else except the nature and power of one aspect would be a bit backwards.
    Yup. Exactly why most dragons think it's silly of bipeds to use splinter-magics.

    A valid point, but it doesn't stress how they died- naturally or by external causes leaving it open to interpretation. I merely filled that hole with draconic lore from mythology and other lore regarding dragon lifespans and origins.
    It is indeed open to interpretation. I was just pointing out what my interpretation was.

    It would make a good argument and support the mechanics I guess. Perhaps some elaboration into the physics and why would be nice. I would extrapolate that their "fire" essence was altered, though they may exist on a plane where time flows their essence while trapped in another existence would remain constant. As one repairs or alters the other existence (or realm) the physical body would suddenly advance until it hits another distortion.
    You'd have to ask the devs about that one, I'm afraid. The Rite doesn't really get into the mechanics of the "why" dragons are stuck in an ageless state, simply that they are and what events transpired to cause it.

    I would ask the question if dragons exist from one realm, why not any (or rather all) could exist from the other realms?
    All dragons in the lore came from or descended from dragons that came from the Realm of Fire, led to the Prime by Drulkar. A dragon from any other realm would be stepping completely outside of game lore. That is not to say it isn't possible, just that it simply is not supported by game lore.

    I would also question exactly why a being that is not from the Realm of Fire would choose to take the form so similar to that of Istarian dragons and not simply appear as a totally unique sort of creature.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  7. #7

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Personally, I imagine that real Istarian dragons would be rather disgusted at the thought of dragons from other elements and would almost certainly believe them inferior given the ego that dragons tend to have. "Waterblood" is an insult in lore already; just imagine if a normal dragon met another dragon that actually had waterblood. :P
    Really what I was asking for, and that's my interpretation as well. History teaches us with any meeting of two cultures, it never ends well for the weaker one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    There's not a terrible lot of really solid lore on Drulkar and the Plane of Fire to my knowledge. I don't really see any reason why a dragon couldn't believe that there was a way to ascend to the level of Drulkar or even beyond. However that belief may be met with opposition by dragons that are very "religious" about Drulkar and his greatness.
    Well that would be where I would fish for answers, I don't want to RP anything that would break the pseudo-realism but at the same time I like asking a few hard questions where players as their characters have to explore options that they as a person may not be entirely sure on, or may even be opposed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    All dragons in the lore came from or descended from dragons that came from the Realm of Fire, led to the Prime by Drulkar. A dragon from any other realm would be stepping completely outside of game lore. That is not to say it isn't possible, just that it simply is not supported by game lore.
    Plausible is all I'm shooting for. I don't think there would be an instance where mentioning or referring to an actual event where dragons of separate essences crossed paths, but to think that a draconic culture hasn't thought of their existence and looked up at the stars and questioned "are their others like me?" would just be asinine in my opinion. If different planes exist, different versions of dragons would in theory exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    I would also question exactly why a being that is not from the Realm of Fire would choose to take the form so similar to that of Istarian dragons and not simply appear as a totally unique sort of creature.
    Why would an element of any kind choose a dragon's form? Aesthetics aside let's go with three key points: flight, utility, and pride.

    First, the ability to fly, is the fastest means of conveyance and wings are typically the simplest and therefore less power consuming method of attaining it. If you had the ability to carve your form from nothing, I don't see why you wouldn't include a flight ability unless you could come up with something more convenient that fit within said realm's physics. Which is why wings are ideal- they don't require an energy source to lift a physical body, they can master the currents around them for remarkable feats of agility and do it without any excess effort on their part as most of it is gliding in just the right areas.

    Second is utility, dragons have claws with thumbs along with a tail, a powerful bite, the ability to breath an element, being light and nimble yet also growing scales that are harder than most metals without sacrificing weight for them. They typically are depicted with the most highly evolved versions of each and are known throughout Earth's mythology as being the best (better than human or any observable creature) at just about anything they put their minds to. They would have the ability to do anything any other lifeform could do and usually more as most of them don't have half the utility a dragon's body does, let alone the mental or "essence" aspects that we could extrapolate over pages on.

    Lastly is pride. Dragons have some of the longest lifespans measured, outlasting nearly all things excluding other dragons. Dragons tend to tower over even the largest of creatures, they always have legs and can typically stand on their hind quarters while performing most tasks making them even taller. Dragons fly over the earth, subdue it, and know what even a single one of their species is capable of- let alone an entire race of them. Any other form won't have that luster, that immediate identification and respect, that a dragon's presence would demand simply by standing there.

    In conclusion I'd argue that if given a choice an essence would choose a dragon-esque form with slight variations to take further advantage of the nature of said essence. It must exploit it's strengths without its weaknesses being so apparent or without a "plan B" when faced against it's natural predator.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    Why would an element of any kind choose a dragon's form? Aesthetics aside let's go with three key points: flight, utility, and pride.

    ...

    In conclusion I'd argue that if given a choice an essence would choose a dragon-esque form with slight variations to take further advantage of the nature of said essence. It must exploit it's strengths without its weaknesses being so apparent or without a "plan B" when faced against it's natural predator.
    An elemental could just as easily take a form that has all the advantageous aspects of a dragon yet looks nothing like one. The only reason I can think of that one might deliberately choose to look like an Istarian dragon would be to try to blend in with them, and that would require that this theoretical being actually traveled to the Prime before taking on any sort of body, and had time while bodiless to do enough research and decide that it would be good to be mistaken for an Istarian dragon.

    This also working under the assumption that this elemental had the ability to pretty much exactly mimic the process that beings from a totally different realm of existence used in order to form their bodies. If the mechanism that an Energy elemental used in order to form its body was any different at all to what one of the original dragons used, it's incredibly unlikely that these two beings would end up with the same results. It's even possible that the Realm of Fire has elementals other than dragons that would take on completely different forms if they were to try to migrate to the Prime.

    Perhaps the form one takes on in the Prime is related to one's original form. Perhaps dragons resembled dragons while they were still in the Realm of Fire, and their Primal forms are a reflection of this. If this were true, any elemental from any other plane would have a comparable chance of looking like a dragon as the chance that we real-life humans would have of finding an alien race that looks pretty much just like us. Theoretically possible but, incredibly, incredibly unlikely.

    But then, I have always liked to take a more logical, true-to-life route. You won't ever catch me RPing as a human/elf or--to be even more outlandish--gnome/dragon hybrid, but I know that hybridization is practically a staple of the fantasy genre. This is despite the fact that, in real life, two species have to be quite close to being the same in order to produce viable offspring, and many hybrids have some sort of issue stemming from different numbers of chromosomes, etc. Now imagine how disparate even humans and elves must be. xD

    It would be easy to just say "It's MAGIC!" and be done with it, but I hate doing that. :P Just the way I work though. Please don't take my comments as trying to stomp on your ideas or anything; that's not what I'm going for. I'm going for "food for thought."

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  9. #9

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    It would be easy to just say "It's MAGIC!" and be done with it, but I hate doing that. :P Just the way I work though. Please don't take my comments as trying to stomp on your ideas or anything; that's not what I'm going for. I'm going for "food for thought."
    Well that's the point of developing a theorem, something that everyone can agree isn't outlandish and has a certain level of plausibility so we're not all on too conflicting understandings. Nothing kills an RP more than two dragons who have no similarities other than that their avatars look like dragons. Made from different essences, "common" truths unheard of or even offensive to the other, and a consistent amount of back pedaling in the RP as it focuses more on back story than character and relationship development.

    While our opinions differ on what is more likely, I like that both of our ideas share basic principles and can interchange certain aspects. My theory is if the essence is given the choice to freely craft a body similar to that of the fire aspects designing theirs without any notable troubles. A draconic form isn't something that one mimics with prior knowledge, I believe it's an eventual conclusion of how one envisions a "better" form than itself.

    Let's take humanity for example, we fashioned wings to fly and place them over our shoulder blades on a glider. To protect ourselves we fashioned armor that at it's height consisted of plating, similar to that of dragon scales, that allowed movement while maintaining protection. To control things like flight, improve agility and ones ability to swim, a long tail adds utility and an additional limb to better control the world around us, and most tribal cultures fashion tails to complete their transformation into a demi-god for ceremonies.

    My argument is more that a dragon's form is the ultimate form, and if you can think of one that has a better general strengths vs weaknesses pool in a larger variety of different terrains and locations I'd like to hear of some. Naturally the dragon's form will be altered slightly in each location to improve it's superiority over it's domain... but the same basic shape and functionality would remain.

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    My argument is more that a dragon's form is the ultimate form.
    No, I get that. What I was trying to get at is that there are so many variations on what "dragons" can look like, while still maintaining all the useful qualities of that form. A creature can have wings, sharp teeth, a tough hide, a tail, etc., without ever coming close to looking enough like an Istarian dragon does.

    Do a search for "dragon" on Google or DeviantArt or something and it'll be quite clear how many variations on the theme of "dragon" there are, and I'll bet you that one that looks enough like an Istarian dragon as to be mistaken for one will be pretty hard to find unless the picture is already of an Istarian.

    Even just the wings. Bat-like? Feathered? Some sort of cross between the two? If traditional bat-like, how many fingers? What does the wing's silhouette look like? What kind of flight is it meant for? Does it have a thumb? Are all the fingers webbed? Where does the webbing attach to the body? Is there webbing between the forearm and shoulder? ... I could go on. :P

    Every single detail would have to be exactly right in order for some elemental to look like an Istarian dragon, to the point that it just happening on its own would be incredible. That's why I think that an elemental taking on an Istarian dragon's form to the point that it fits in without question would have to be a deliberate copying of the form that the fire spirits under Drulkar took on when they migrated to the Prime. And this would require research, as an elemental fresh off the Realm of Energy is going to have no clue what an Istarian dragon looks like until it's already been to the Prime to see one.

    My argument is not that an elemental wouldn't choose a form resembling a dragon; my argument is that it's very unlikely that it wouldn't look completely alien to Istarian dragons unless the elemental took pains to resemble them on purpose.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    No, I get that. What I was trying to get at is that there are so many variations on what "dragons" can look like, while still maintaining all the useful qualities of that form. A creature can have wings, sharp teeth, a tough hide, a tail, etc., without ever coming close to looking enough like an Istarian dragon does.

    ...

    My argument is not that an elemental wouldn't choose a form resembling a dragon; my argument is that it's very unlikely that it wouldn't look completely alien to Istarian dragons unless the elemental took pains to resemble them on purpose.
    I'd say we'd be splitting hairs at that point, but it looks as though we agree dragons require a certain number of features regardless of their background to be classified as such. Wings could be of different materials yet are still wings, breath weapons of various elements yet still be breathing an element, having a claw with fingers and a thumb, basic principles are there with room to be expanded or altered upon based on needs of the surroundings or nature of the element.

    I also agree that any dragon from another realm other than fire would look completely alien than to that of an Istarian dragon. I was stating that all the parts and pieces that make a dragon a dragon would be there, they would just have a water/energy/etc spin on them. A "fire" dragon and an "ice" dragon seldom look similar, though it would be possible for each to take a form mirroring the other.

    Lastly I would bring to question what society values that Istarian dragons have- Lunus and Helian- hold in the highest of regard? Keeping in mind that the dragons live for long period of time, hoard valuable items, all know their origin as that of Dralkur bringing them into this existence, and understanding that the elders closed and buried the gate to the fire realm behind them before leaving.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    I would ask the question if dragons exist from one realm, why not any (or rather all) could exist from the other realms?
    I'd be much more inclined to think that the other realms would produce their own native creatures which wouldn't be dragons - for example, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that, say, Satyrs and Dryads are the children of the realm of Nature.
    - Kesqui - Formerly of Ice, now of Chaos, lair in Liak
    First Rebirth 12-12-2003 / Ascended to Ancient 12-12-2010

  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    I'd say we'd be splitting hairs at that point, but it looks as though we agree dragons require a certain number of features regardless of their background to be classified as such.
    Well, if I may be permitted to split a few more hairs :P, the word "dragon" applies to a ton of creatures that do not meet your requirements. Things like Eastern dragons, wyverns, lindworms... Whereas, I am certain that there are many permutations of the "wings, tail, fangs, etc." formula that most people wouldn't call a dragon at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    Lastly I would bring to question what society values that Istarian dragons have- Lunus and Helian- hold in the highest of regard?
    All dragons--Helian or Lunus--generally value tradition and pride.

    In long-past ages, dragons used to be regarded as godlike by the bipedal races. Obviously, that has changed in modern times. Dragons don't like change, and the Great Schism is a result of that. Everything was cool until the humans declared themselves free of draconic rule, and then suddenly dragons almost had a civil war over how to deal with it.

    Most dragons regard the dragons of the past as the peak of draconic society and believe that their race has fallen and should strive to return to their old place. The two factions have different ideas about how to get there though.

    In general, Lunus want to rule or otherwise conquer the bipeds, while Helians think of them almost like misguided children. The Lunus are more tied to the past, where dragons used to lord over bipeds simply by being dragons. Helians are more forward-thinking, believing that the way to return to their lost lofty height is through teaching and leadership of the "lesser" races. Essentially, Lunus take a military approach, while Helians want to lead bipeds to enlightenment. However, in neither case do the dragons consider bipeds to be their equals. The dragons consider themselves the foremost race of Istaria.

    The traits that dragons value are going to differ between the two different factions somewhat. Lunus value power and determination probably more than Helians, whereas Helians value intelligence and sense probably more than Lunus. Helians say Lunus think with their teeth, Lunus say Helians talk too much.

    Both factions likely value honor, but have differing opinions on what is or isn't dishonorable. Sure, there'd be a lot of overlap: both would believe lying to your elders to be dishonorable, but what about to bipeds? A Helian might, a Lunus might not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesqui View Post
    I'd be much more inclined to think that the other realms would produce their own native creatures which wouldn't be dragons - for example, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that, say, Satyrs and Dryads are the children of the realm of Nature.
    This is what I would find significantly more likely too. I think the question at hand is more "Is it at all possible?" than "Is it likely?" though. At least that's the way it seems to me.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  14. #14

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Well, if I may be permitted to split a few more hairs :P, the word "dragon" applies to a ton of creatures that do not meet your requirements. Things like Eastern dragons, wyverns, lindworms... Whereas, I am certain that there are many permutations of the "wings, tail, fangs, etc." formula that most people wouldn't call a dragon at all.
    I'd say that a wyvern's a wyvern and a dragon's a dragon, an uneducated would say that they're similar or of the same breed but the key difference is while similar the others lack a key element that makes a dragon a dragon (such as a wyvern's missing arms/forelegs or a lyndworm's missing wings).

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    All dragons--Helian or Lunus--generally value tradition and pride.

    In long-past ages, dragons used to be regarded as godlike by the bipedal races. Obviously, that has changed in modern times. Dragons don't like change, and the Great Schism is a result of that. Everything was cool until the humans declared themselves free of draconic rule, and then suddenly dragons almost had a civil war over how to deal with it.

    Most dragons regard the dragons of the past as the peak of draconic society and believe that their race has fallen and should strive to return to their old place. The two factions have different ideas about how to get there though.
    I would also agree with this sentiment, a race living for as long as they do tend to be very proud, set in their ways, and focused on improving their way of life. I would also postulate they would value their lineage and it's connection to key events and figures in draconic lore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    In general, Lunus want to rule or otherwise conquer the bipeds, while Helians think of them almost like misguided children. The Lunus are more tied to the past, where dragons used to lord over bipeds simply by being dragons. Helians are more forward-thinking, believing that the way to return to their lost lofty height is through teaching and leadership of the "lesser" races. Essentially, Lunus take a military approach, while Helians want to lead bipeds to enlightenment. However, in neither case do the dragons consider bipeds to be their equals. The dragons consider themselves the foremost race of Istaria.
    I would agree that this is the common mindset of Istarian dragons, including a generalized viewpoint from each faction. I would also question if there are sub-factions within both, and what they could focus on in terms of "goals" for the advancement of the dragon race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Both factions likely value honor, but have differing opinions on what is or isn't dishonorable. Sure, there'd be a lot of overlap: both would believe lying to your elders to be dishonorable, but what about to bipeds? A Helian might, a Lunus might not.
    A very interesting viewpoint, and one worthy of extrapolation per different character's stances and beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kesqui View Post
    I'd be much more inclined to think that the other realms would produce their own native creatures which wouldn't be dragons - for example, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that, say, Satyrs and Dryads are the children of the realm of Nature.
    I would agree with that, I would also state that certain golems, elementals and other monsters are denziens of the fire realm, but I would disagree that there wouldn't be a dragon or at least some higher form of life form that claims dominion over it then a half-goat or a lesser fairy.

  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    I'd say that a wyvern's a wyvern and a dragon's a dragon, an uneducated would say that they're similar or of the same breed but the key difference is while similar the others lack a key element that makes a dragon a dragon (such as a wyvern's missing arms/forelegs or a lyndworm's missing wings).
    I think what you're defining as "dragon" is actually a western dragon. Which is just one type out of many. An eastern dragon is still a dragon, yet has no wings at all and I don't believe they have breath weapons either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    I would also question if there are sub-factions within both, and what they could focus on in terms of "goals" for the advancement of the dragon race.
    There aren't any sub-factions mentioned in the game lore (though there is that hermit that doesn't seem to care about factions that much). You'll find all manner of things amongst players though. Dragons who don't care about faction, dragons who place themselves as equal with bipeds, dragons who think the factions are stupid, dragons who joined one faction but really support the other. There was even a third faction called Dasha Khan at some point, though I think it had less to do with biped-related beliefs and more to do with "I don't like either of you; I'm going to go throw my own party."

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    I would agree with that, I would also state that certain golems, elementals and other monsters are denziens of the fire realm, but I would disagree that there wouldn't be a dragon or at least some higher form of life form that claims dominion over it then a half-goat or a lesser fairy.
    Who's to say that the half-goat or fairy aren't high forms of life? We RL humans aren't really that impressive, yet I don't think many would argue with you if you called humans the highest form of life on Earth.

    For that matter, the concept that there is no better form to take on than that of a dragon is questionable. Dragons aren't infallible. (Speaking of Istarian-resembling dragons here) They're huge and heavy, easy to hit, have to sit back on their haunches in order to use their hands, their scales count for nothing in the face of some magic types, they have bones that can break, eyes that can be blinded... Dragons can be consistantly killed by creatures that could be called "lesser" than they are, but does that victory not make this supposedly lesser creature greater than the dragon? Or perhaps all forms have advantages over other forms, and there is no "ultimate" form.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  16. #16

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    I think what you're defining as "dragon" is actually a western dragon. Which is just one type out of many. An eastern dragon is still a dragon, yet has no wings at all and I don't believe they have breath weapons either.
    I'd state that a dragon is a dragon, an eastern dragon- or in the case you're speaking of a Chinese dragon called "long" in their language- is an eastern dragon or "long." If you asked someone from china what a picture of a western dragon was, they'd refer to it as "shen tien long" which is different to them than "long." Istarian dragons are visually modeled after the western interpretation of dragons to include using the English word for dragon- so I'd assume most of the aspects from western mythology are what we are incorporating... unless they have some auspiciously eastern ideas and essences thrown in their lore that I haven't picked up on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    There aren't any sub-factions mentioned in the game lore (though there is that hermit that doesn't seem to care about factions that much). You'll find all manner of things amongst players though. Dragons who don't care about faction, dragons who place themselves as equal with bipeds, dragons who think the factions are stupid, dragons who joined one faction but really support the other. There was even a third faction called Dasha Khan at some point, though I think it had less to do with biped-related beliefs and more to do with "I don't like either of you; I'm going to go throw my own party."
    I'm just concerned about what the "mainstream" beliefs are, if there are any guild or common themes with players RPing with dragons outside the simple "lunus" and "Helian" stances as they are the only thing referenced in game lore and dragons are forced to choose one path.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    Who's to say that the half-goat or fairy aren't high forms of life? We RL humans aren't really that impressive, yet I don't think many would argue with you if you called humans the highest form of life on Earth.
    I'd rebuttle that humanity is the dominant species due to our ability to use our brain. Take that ability and put it in a superior form and humanity would quickly be toppled, let alone if the ability to think/reason/dream/build is improved upon by a larger physical brain like that in a much larger dragon. The physical aspects are all I was focusing on, as I can't think of a logical standpoint where the physical aspects of humans/satyrs/fairies compare to that of a dragon. They don't, magical potential aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptress View Post
    For that matter, the concept that there is no better form to take on than that of a dragon is questionable. Dragons aren't infallible. (Speaking of Istarian-resembling dragons here) They're huge and heavy, easy to hit, have to sit back on their haunches in order to use their hands, their scales count for nothing in the face of some magic types, they have bones that can break, eyes that can be blinded... Dragons can be consistantly killed by creatures that could be called "lesser" than they are, but does that victory not make this supposedly lesser creature greater than the dragon? Or perhaps all forms have advantages over other forms, and there is no "ultimate" form.
    It's more of a 1 to 1 ratio, name a single creature that can compare or surpass a dragon in one aspect without being severely weaker than the dragon in another. The dragons are the optimal compromise between all aspects without becoming a hindrance or making too many compromises, hence why it always takes multiple of any other species to take out even a young dragon. You can increase or decrease the size of the dragon to a similar level to compromise for physical limitations, I'm just saying 2 back legs, 2 front legs with thumbs, 2 wings, a row of sharp teeth with a long reaching neck, a long whip-like tail, and the ability to breath a raw element would be the most you could fit into a single creature without compromising and making it weaker than another form.
    Last edited by Exrage; August 10th, 2012 at 01:51 AM.

  17. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    I'm kind of starting to lose track of whether we are referring to dragons in the context of Istaria or just in general. xD

    In Istaria though, saying that it "always takes multiple of any other species" to take down a dragon simply isn't true, and in the context of a magical world, I don't think that magical potential can just be cast aside. I also don't think a winged quadruped would be the most efficient form--again, the having to lean back to use the hands thing--but that's just my opinion.

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  18. #18

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    We're referring to dragons for lore purposes in Istaria for the sake of making a stable knowledge base that doesn't go outside game lore and has sufficient allowances for others RP by defining things we can consider "normal," "proven," or "makes sense" to the characters in-game.

    And I can understand your point but I'd postulate that, other than in-game visuals, why a dragon couldn't adapt a lumbering stance to remain on their hind legs if it suits your taste?

    Also I would state that a dragon at it's peak against any other naturally occuring creature in a generalized state. A world boss that's a mutated treant wouldn't be taken into the equation but rather the treants as a species vs. dragons as a whole. A treant wouldn't beat a dragon in anything as a dragon moves faster, and in the case of a fire elemental dragon like that of Istaria they'd simply light them on fire and fly away.

  19. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington, land of shivering in June.
    Posts
    1,313

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    We're referring to dragons for lore purposes in Istaria for the sake of making a stable knowledge base that doesn't go outside game lore and has sufficient allowances for others RP by defining things we can consider "normal," "proven," or "makes sense" to the characters in-game.
    I think more than just you or me need to weigh in before anything is said about a "knowledgebase." I thought we were just discussing your RP ideas and how feasible they are in Istaria's lore. xD

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    And I can understand your point but I'd postulate that, other than in-game visuals, why a dragon couldn't adapt a lumbering stance to remain on their hind legs if it suits your taste?
    I don't think Istarian dragons are built properly to be able to consistently walk on two legs, and it'd be pretty awkward I'd think. They're pretty clearly meant to walk on four legs to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    Also I would state that a dragon at it's peak against any other naturally occuring creature in a generalized state. A world boss that's a mutated treant wouldn't be taken into the equation but rather the treants as a species vs. dragons as a whole. A treant wouldn't beat a dragon in anything as a dragon moves faster, and in the case of a fire elemental dragon like that of Istaria they'd simply light them on fire and fly away.
    Okay, so how about spirit-magic-slinging bipeds that could take a dragon out in one shot before the dragon even got within a close enough range to breathe fire? These things exist in Istaria.

    (Treants are actually of living wood too, not dead wood. Living wood doesn't burn as well as dead wood does. You may notice that in-game treants are not defeated the moment fire touches them. x3 Don't mind me, splitting hairs over here again~. It seems to be my hobby.)

    .:Malestryx:.

    Aegis Shatterer - Scourge of the Scourge - Blight's Own Decay

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dragons: A theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by Exrage View Post
    It's more of a 1 to 1 ratio, name a single creature that can compare or surpass a dragon in one aspect without being severely weaker than the dragon in another.
    Any well multi-classed biped. xD Akrion's Spirit/Blood magic combo gives him a burst of damage from a single attack that can take out an Ancient Dragon in 1 hit, even if they have Shield of Gold going.

    Outside of game mechanics, the fact that Dragon's look down on fragmenting the prime into more specific areas of magic means they are honestly rather inferior in many areas such as healing, which is reflected in the mechanics.

    Actually, the very existance of the Gift is due to biped magic. One could even argue that Dragons would be in very serious trouble now if it weren't for the Gift because of their inability to naturally age. The permanent deaths that would occur from hatchlings just trying to ascend would take a heavy toll on the species.
    Avatar is of my character Akrion, snipped from Hrae's Hoard of Creatures by the excellent moss loving artist Nambroth. <3

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •