Blight Update 241

[starlight]

I am currently curious mainly. what is the real reason behind this sudden plot change focused on silo count of a single teir. At the moment i do not understand the reasoning behind the need to limit a silo or store house of any teir. I would like a honest explaination of this as to why this change was even considered before the crystal shaper was brought to the live servers. I do not mean to be rude but we have been waiting a few months since the removal of the old armor crystal buffs. This is my opinion but if somebody want to put a plot full of silos thats their choosing i see no reason to be spending time putting new limits or changes to current things in game plot or otherwise until the current project has been completed in this perticular case the crystal shaper for dragons getting to live and any bugs in it ironed before any new projects are undertaken

[Hoberton]

I would like a developer to answer this. Is it the number of silos on a plot or a specific tier of silo that causes lag on the server?

If it is the number of silos then what difference does it make to make 25x all tiers of silos or 150 of the same tier?

[awdz]

I particularly do not like that it is a flat number proposed regardless of plot size. Beyond that, I really really do not think the number of trees should be limited since I like the forest look.

[Aaelefein]

Expanded Ideas

Lumber Kiln (Keeps the boards clean and straight), Holds boards only
T2: Stack 6 Bulk 24,000 (500 boards of each tier)
T4: Stack 6, Bulk 36,000 (750 each)
T6: Stack 6, Bulk 48,000 (1000 each)

Gem Case (Small quantities for a Jeweler), Holds cut gems only
T2: Stack 15, Bulk 9,000 (100 each)
T4: Stack 15, Bulk 18,000 (200 Each)
T6: Stack 15, Bulk 27,000 (400 Each)

Gem Vault (Large quantities for Alchemist/Dragon Lair), holds gems, cut or uncut only
T2: Stack 6, Bulk 18,000 (500 each)
T4: Stack 6, bulk 36,000 (1000 each)
T6: Stack 6, Bulk 45,000 (1500 each)

Ingot Vault (Non-precious metal is the idea), holds bars only
T2: Stack 6, Bulk 24,000 (500 bars each)
T4: Stack 6, Bulk 36,000 (750 each)
T6: Stack 6, Bulk 48,000 (1000 each)

Precious Metal Case (Jeweler's storage), holds bars only
T2: Stack 3, Bulk 4,800 (200 bars each)
T4: Stack 3, Bulk 9,600 (400 each)
T6: Stack 3, Bulk 19,200 (800 bars each)

Alchemist Apothecary (ground gems, powdered metals, and specialized essence materials)
T2: Stack 6, Bulk 12,000 (think that is 500 each, assumign it is as I rememebr 4 bulk each)
T4: Stack 6, Bulk 18,000 (750 each)
T6: Stack 6, Bulk 24,000 (100 each)

Essence Depository (Orbs only)
T2: Stack 6, Bulk 28,800 (600 each)
T4: stack 6, Bulk 43,200 (900 each)
T6: Stack 6, Bulk 57,600 (1,200 each)

Spoolery (lame name, but couldn't come up with anything spur of the moment) (Spools only)
T2: Stack 6, Bulk 28,800 (600 each)
T4: stack 6, Bulk 43,200 (900 each)
T6: Stack 6, Bulk 57,600 (1,200 each)

I could also see structures for:
Spell shards (stack 6 and maybe 200 each at T2)
Tinkering Parts (stack 8 or 16, no more than 100 each at T2)

These are just some more ideas to expand on my original post. Again, except for leveling purposes or big construction projects where one would still need a few silos...with a limit of one each of these kinds of structures it would seriously eliminate the need for a multitude of silos. It would be even...hmm...cooler? If they could be made to blend in with the associated shop they are meant o assist, or better yet... 'new' shops that come with this built-in, with higher resource requirements to build, thus eliminating the need for the extra structures short of leveling/construction needs. Only problem I see with the latter is plot permissions might be problematic...don't want giving permission for people to use the new shop also gives them access to the storage.

There...my ideas expanded

Aaelefein

[Steelclaw]

what is the real reason behind this sudden plot change focused on silo count of a single teir. At the moment i do not understand the reasoning behind the need to limit a silo or store house of any teir. I would like a honest explaination

I would like a developer to answer this. Is it the number of silos on a plot or a specific tier of silo that causes lag on the server?

I'll see what I can find out. No promises though.

[Steelclaw]

Expanded Ideas
...
These are just some more ideas to expand on my original post.

Thanks! I'll point the designers in the direction of this suggestion and see if they're interested.

Only problem I see with the latter is plot permissions might be problematic...don't want giving permission for people to use the new shop also gives them access to the storage.

Structure and plot permissions don't affect who can use a machine, so don't worry about making sure your shops have their permissions set.

[hallucin8]

OK, so we know there are well over 100 different resources available across Istaria; not including the second level processed resources like spellshards or tinker stuff. So yer, I would have to agree that limiting silos to even 150 (which is esentially what , after so so many years of it 'working' is probably a less than perfect solution. It won't affect me personally, but I do not support this decision as it stands. Liming silos for heavy crafters would be like limiting suits of armor for me, rage quit! :P

Should it go ahead, new plot owners will have to decide, "Should I keep higher tiered resources in larger silos as they are harder to get (and I don't want to have to get these too often), or should I keep lower tiered resources in larger quantities as they are used more often?" Certainly would be a pain moving resources about, though. Go to move resource A into silo B, but can't because silo B is smaller than silo A... you get the point.

My opinion, except for leveling or building large projects (thinking T6 here), to keep in-stock stuff one doesn't need massive bulk. So give me some resource specific warehouses that at say T1(or 2) are 6-stack and 48,000 bulk - enough to hold 1000 of each resource type (wood, metal, stone, etcetera) - and upper tiers only add bulk. Now you've got 1 structure vs. 6. Perhaps more specialized ones for gems (15-stack, 18,000 bulk - or about 200 of each gem t1-5, holds cut or powered), Alchemical Essence (orbs or can't recall the alchemical version), Precious Metal Vault (Silver, Gold, Platinum) - but I think you see where I am going here, and my proposed numbers are just an idea, a starting point to get the idea across - but shouldn't be so low that making say a full set of armor (metal, cloth or leather) - used up the entire stack of the resource.

I love this idea!! For most people, they probably don't need silo farms to hold thousands of every resource. That is mainly used for when plot building, or perhaps when leveling, but even then you don't need silos full of every resource for every tier.

It would be fantastic if there could be new structures which could act like storehouses, but for other resources. I would love silo-type structures capable of holding say 500 of each tier of a particular resource. For example, a new Stone Silo, which could hold 500 sandstone bricks, slate bricks, etc. Similar structures could exist for Metals (and another for Precious metals), also for Gems, Orbs, etc. These could be the Tier 1 numbers, increasing up to a sensible number (1,500 for each resource?) for the T6 version. Obviously the footprint would have to be larger than a silo. They wouldn't even have to come in 6 different variants, perhaps even just a Small and Large. Since artwork is always an issue, I propose simply recolouring the small and large dwarven houses... or something. I have no idea if this idea would appease the heavy crafters, but I suspect it would help a lot of people none the less.

Let's hope we can convince the powers that be, that limiting silos in this fashion is not a good solution, and hopefully come up with a better one!

Happy hunting all, see yas in Istaria

[Northwind]

I like Aaelefein ideas, but they do seem to involve a lot of dev time - the simpler solution would be to just up the number of stacks from 1 to 6 for the current silos. I said 6 just for the fact that there are 6 tiers of items.

[Velea]

Moving forward, I am going to be moderating this thread more in line with how it should be. Personal comments toward other posters will be removed. Express your thoughts on this change, but leave others out of it, please.

[Terao]

I'm very close to Grand Master Crafter, I own two plots, one for crafting and one for design and item stack.

I've placed around 25 T4 Silos, 3 Store Houses and a barn. For me it is enough, as you can use one (or more) consigner as a vault. I store lightweight materials like gems and tech resources in a guildhouse. Storing thousands of all materials in silos is often not necessary, gems for crafting scales or jewelry doesn't need stockpile of thousands, some hundred are enough for a long time. Building 25xT6, 25xT5, 25xT4 Silos takes LOADS and LOADS of material building so many silos, this amount really should be enough in my opinion.

I love the idea to get specific silos Aelefein suggested, that's really a great idea and worth to think on, and it doesn't need new graphics.

[Arzel Rashemi]

How does this change impact the way you play?

I would like to know why the sudden decision to strictly limit on trees and plants in game was made within less than a week to limit them? It is obviously not a bug since they have been unlimited since the introduction of plot crafting to this game, so what is the logical reason behind this?

I want to know the logic behind being able to build as many snowmen, Christmas trees, gift boxes, leaf piles, scarecrows, haystacks, skulls, and jack-o-lanterns (the latter two being light sources) as I want on a plot but trees and other plants are being limited? I fail to understand the reasoning behind a limit being placed on an item that takes up no more space than a silo or storehouse on a plot and has no animations, light sources, or stack/bulk.

There are plenty of crafters in this game and some of them get their enjoyment in this game crafting items or resources, but there are those who get their enjoyment in plot crafting itself.

That limitation on trees and plants takes away from my enjoyment in crafting in this game in a very similar way that limiting silos and storage takes away from the enjoyment of those crafters who choose to craft for items and resources. I have pretty much done everything else in game there is to do, so I get my enjoyment out of creating spaces in game that are non-utilitarian. That is what keeps me paying for my subs. I do aesthetic plot crafting, and that is my zen.

I build my plots for looks, not just function and I know a few others who also do this or enjoy these plots immensely as a much needed part of the community. This means crafting to what looks good or fits most compatibly within a given space used for the design. This type of crafting could be building a plot for looks to create space for role playing, an area to hold events for guild or seasonal events, a place to gather, a personal space around a house, or just to create a nice looking space to break up a surrounding sea of monotony in adjoining plots filled full of silos, machines, and other storage units in the area or community. This is especially true of guild plots and communities where normally one person in the guild has agreed to take up a particular role that is necessary and must be fulfilled for the guild to function. That neccessity often leaves no room for fluff on the plot.

What kind of alternatives could reduce that impact while maintaining the goal of the change? (i.e. keeping the number of plot structures to some restricted limit) Aaelefein is on a good track and asks some helpful questions. That post is a good place to pick things up.

Get rid of the variety of plants/trees that are in planters.
This is probably the biggest thing that can be done to fix this issue while staying within the restricted limits. I have not seen branchy, leafy or swampy trees in planters used on a plot in years, and to my knowledge no one uses them. They take up limit space that could be put towards their non-planter tree types. This truncation of the following tree types that are so unused or rarely used: (Branchy with planter, Leafy with planter, Swampy with planter) would mean that the tree types: (Branchy, Leafy, Swampy) could be increased by 20, making a total limit of 40 of them. I would find it really hard pressed to use 40 trees of one type on a plot, but I have easily done over 30 before with the types listed above. They are some of the most commonly used trees on plots and likely to be the most frustrating to crafters with the current limit.

Fix the footprint of palm trees to be more in line with those of swamp, branchy, and leafy trees.
I don’t see too many palm trees used either, except on desert plots. The only reason I can think of behind this lack of use of palm trees is that the footprint for them is huge and impossible to fit comfortably next to other items without a massive gap of empty space between the palm and the other item. Nothing else can be placed in that large gap because it would be within the boundary of the palm tree. If the footprint of the palm plants was made smaller to be more in line with that of the other trees, then they would be more design friendly, and this would be very helpful with regards to the limit as it opens up a few more types of tree that are already on the plot item list for easy usage.

Introduce ground plants and individual bushes.
I often times use swampy trees because they are the closest thing we have for ground plants and work fairly well for that use. If there was something better I would use it instead. Certain models that are already in game could be used or easily modified for ground plants to create an ivy patch, a mossy patch, and we even have models for vegetables in game already there. We have tilled soil flooring, but not the plants to put on it. I don’t use tilled soil flooring for that reason. No veggies to go on them.

If dev time is really limited for such modifications, we could use the models for the tree types that are already available on the plot planner and make them smaller for use as ground plants and individual bushes.

Introduce trees that already have models in the game for us to use as options.
Again, the models are already in game so a fairly easy thing to use one and build an oak, elm, or cedar tree as plot decoration to add a few more choices?

Limit the number of trees based on plot size
If you get a small plot you don’t get the option to put a grand guild house on it or a large house in the planner, so why can’t this be done with item limits? It would go a long way into easing the frustration large plot owners are going to have with these item limits on trees and other greenery.

What about flower beds/flower boxes.
Leaf pile and hay stack have been introduced, so I don’t think a bed of flowers would be too much of a stretch to create. If a player can use up room on a plot, then they don’t have to fill it with trees. It makes the limitation easier to swallow and gives it some real reason for it to be limited like it is.

The idea here is that plot crafters, those of us who build plots for looks or non-utilitarian function must have a number of options for greenery available and open to us that allow us to craft our plots for aesthetic looks with a greater amount of variety available, so that the limit on the number of trees set at 20 isn’t going to leave us pulling our hair out on large plot with open empty spaces in doing the type of crafting we like best.

[Guaran]

I'm very close to Grand Master Crafter, I own two plots, one for crafting and one for design and item stack.

I've placed around 25 T4 Silos, 3 Store Houses and a barn. For me it is enough, as you can use one (or more) consigner as a vault. I store lightweight materials like gems and tech resources in a guildhouse. Storing thousands of all materials in silos is often not necessary, gems for crafting scales or jewelry doesn't need stockpile of thousands, some hundred are enough for a long time. Building 25xT6, 25xT5, 25xT4 Silos takes LOADS and LOADS of material building so many silos, this amount really should be enough in my opinion.

I love the idea to get specific silos Aelefein suggested, that's really a great idea and worth to think on, and it doesn't need new graphics.

Well said. /agree

A few "warehouse" structures would be a great alternative. Even something with the same footprint as a t6 tavern (huge) for the t6 warehouse. That footprint is likely the same space that 50 to 75 silos (or more) could fit. Give it a stack and quantity limit, no bulk limit. Example 100 or 150 stacks, 9999 item limit per stack (which will limit bulk). Barn should be similiar to this, maybe 25 stacks of dry goods and raw resources only, but no processed food or potions (perishables. Who keeps that stuff in a barn?).

Why can't storage be added to some exiting structures? The aforementioned taverns. Give them storehouse type storage for food resources and potion resources (balances with the above barn suggestion), 25, 50, 100 for the beginner, journeyman, expert. Same for confectioner shack, give it some storehouse type stacks, say 20.

As Terao mentioned, silos are not needed or even efficient for every single possible resource. Low bulk items are best stored in a house or some kind, and are a waste of a silo. In fact a t4 guildhouse can already fill this role, except for the total bulk limits it has, but its great for things like cut gems, powdered gems and metal, misc rarely used resources like gears and struts, and food resource leftovers. Some new structures and storage added to existing craft shacks would be welcomed. First thing to go should be all the silo farms, next would be the endless guildhouses. Variety please!

Still not seeing a problem with silo limits, but some alternatives would be welcome.

Adding storage to all the bigger craft shacks would be great. The small single machine huts I would not give any storage.

[Velea]

Arzel, in a way you answered your own question. We could not continue to introduce new decorative options (the new plants, trees, flower beds, etc, are all great suggestions), without putting limits on currently existing decorations. The load on the game was just becoming too heavy in many areas.



You mentioned the timing of the change. Limiting the number of objects on plots is something we've been discussing internally for some time and even have items on the technical team's backlog for improving our capability to limit in a more flexible manner (based upon category, for example, rather than specific object or structure). The discussion about inconsistencies in another thread merely brought it to the forefront and so we decided to act upon it.


We agree, no one likes limits, but the fact of the matter is that as plot sizes and the number of decorative type objects has increased we've increasingly become concerned about the number of objects that could and were being built on plots. More objects creates a heavier burden on the servers as well as on the loading of communities by players, resulting in longer load times, and increased lag.


Additional suggestions regarding types of Silos, increased Barn capacity, and so on, are all good and we're actively discussing them internally with an eye for improving the situation in future updates. We hope you will all continue discussing the matter and presenting suggestions for improving the game.


Thank you and happy gaming!

[Hoberton]

Arzel, in a way you answered your own question. We could not continue to introduce new decorative options (the new plants, trees, flower beds, etc, are all great suggestions), without putting limits on currently existing decorations. The load on the game was just becoming too heavy in many areas.



You mentioned the timing of the change. Limiting the number of objects on plots is something we've been discussing internally for some time and even have items on the technical team's backlog for improving our capability to limit in a more flexible manner (based upon category, for example, rather than specific object or structure). The discussion about inconsistencies in another thread merely brought it to the forefront and so we decided to act upon it.


We agree, no one likes limits, but the fact of the matter is that as plot sizes and the number of decorative type objects has increased we've increasingly become concerned about the number of objects that could and were being built on plots. More objects creates a heavier burden on the servers as well as on the loading of communities by players, resulting in longer load times, and increased lag.


Additional suggestions regarding types of Silos, increased Barn capacity, and so on, are all good and we're actively discussing them internally with an eye for improving the situation in future updates. We hope you will all continue discussing the matter and presenting suggestions for improving the game.


Thank you and happy gaming!

The problem I see is that too many objects are causing the lag/load problem. At least that is what I am taking from what you posted, Velea.

Then why do you, The Developers, keep adding fluff to the planning window? You are creating the lag/load yourself. And... your answer: Limit Silos and Storehouses.

Examples:
10 Basket types
31 Banners
2 Clotheslines
5 Ponds
16 Fall Harvest Decorations
12 Winter Festival Decorations
4 Wheelbarrows
Tree selections in massive numbers
and so many flooring selections also

[Calyndrell]

I don't see what anyone here is complaining about I have yet to see a single plot with 100+ silos/storehouse on their plot let alone the sheer amount of space required for such massive facilities.(I have tried to fit that on my plot and it won't all fit if I want to have ANY machines to craft with) Second that with the excellent suggestions from aaelfin and terao (forgive typos doing this on a kindle).

Please don't negate other styles of plot building and items simply because they are cosmetic. It's precisely these items that make plot design and building enjoyable to many of us.

[Dracillion]

Comparing a cosmetic item such as trees to functionalism of a silo is absurd. You work hard, you get GMC, you build your tech T5 set and get your crystals, you go to town on the latest and greatest. So what if you want to use all T6 silos and how many you want. The end game being to store the most amount of materials per silo per footprint. Done. The work in and of itself lies in the individual silos and the time for the construction. In a lot of scenarios, there simply isn't a better storage/bulk bang for your buck than the even tier silo. You alienate those whom are looking to min/max their plot to curtail lag (metrics have yet to be seen).

Why something like this is even pushed to Blight is mind boggling. You would think if you were to limit any sort of building on a plot, you would limit cosmetics. Why? They provide nothing more than hogging resources. Download a resource manager of your flavor and run around a couple communities. On Chaos for example, note Meadowhill vs Harro vs Shepherd's Mountain vs Clearport. Compare guild communities vs settlement. Afterwards run into a forest, a blighted forest, or any dense cosmetic show-and-tell ghost town such as Tazoon.

After looking at the process and its resource consumption, now it's time to check latency. Get yourself a network monitoring tool of choice and try running around to the same places as you did before. Try opening up some buildings, or silos, check the response times from the server to its return of permission standings.

All in all, you will find a consistency between all of the plots, relating to the number of buildings and not necessarily 'silo farms' or even theme park plots with just cosmetics.

One can deduce the 'server load' of the metrics seen. You're burning both ends of the candle limiting anything plot/construction related.

[Aaelefein]

I would like to add something that compliments both my previous posts and some things others have talked about...

Functionality vs. Aesthetics

As someone pointed out, at the moment silos are your best 'bang for the buck' - nothing else compares when you need a lot of a single resource. Guild and Racial Houses are fine to a point, but if one is going to use them for things such as gems, alchemical powders, tinkering pieces - not only do you run up against a stack issue, but with those components, to keep any effective amount on hand you also run up against the bulk limit too.

When I had my plot in Brandon's Shelf...I tried to find a balance between effective crafting and aesthetics. Lots of walls, a few trees here and there, hedges, walkways, etcetera. I'd love to have done more, but with I think it was 21 storehouses all filled with 4x types of food, 40+ T4/5 Silos for all primary resources plus a couple for major projects, now toss in a couple guild houses, racial houses, tents and such to try to keep up with all the things people need to gather to be effective (while some overlap, 19 craft schools * 5 Jewelry slots = 195 stack) and that doesn't include armor pieces, and armor/jewelry/weapon sets for various adventure schools, plus the tools, crystals, hunting potions, foods, emblems and the list goes on...

Even with a large 100x100 plot there isn't enough room to make it look inviting rather than an industrial complex. Multi-stack silos and or shops with related storage capacity would in my opinion significantly reduce the need for multiple silos and more space for beautification...

However, solving that issue seems like a case of the dog catching its tail. Where is the lag...10 silos vs. 10 fluff items? Other than location information, whether you have 1 or 50 silos of a particular tier - it is all the same data. On the flipside, you've got many more fluff items...think someone pointed out some of them...banners alone - still have the location information so the client knows where to place them when loading the area, but you also have 30 sets of data for those banners that need to be loaded.

While I like fluff (to a degree, mostly walls, bushes, trees, flooring), from the above example it would appear fluff is the driver of lag and not things like 50 T4 Silos (Probably in a tie with T2 as being the most popular, and as someone pointed out having a smaller footprint than the odd-numbered silos.) I also know it can't be the contents of the storage structures as this can be seen after weekly maintenance...if contents were loaded then there wouldn't be that interminable wait when opening a structure that hasn't been accessed since the last maintenance downtime.

So I agree with the poster one or two messages before this one...take the time to find the cause of lag, why it varies from one location to the other and fix that first. I would also point out that at least in my experience, weather-effects are by far the absolute worst. Blighted lands and those storm ogres (or whatever they are named now) on your run from Morning Light to the Icy Dire Wolves...I lagged so bad thru there I was dead before I even knew there were mobs. Though I'd made it thru and started fighting a wolf...couldn't do anything only to find the world spinning and I was back on the road with the ogres walking away from me. If I could turn off those effects (I've looked, haven't found a way), I'd probably spend some time in those areas.

Aaelefein

ps. Feledan and surrounds seems to be an issue too, though not sure why; and no one wants to go to Tazoon if they don't have too.

[Smaug]

I don't see what anyone here is complaining about I have yet to see a single plot with 100+ silos/storehouse on their plot let alone the sheer amount of space required for such massive facilities.(I have tried to fit that on my plot and it won't all fit if I want to have ANY machines to craft with) Second that with the excellent suggestions from aaelfin and terao (forgive typos doing this on a kindle).

Please don't negate other styles of plot building and items simply because they are cosmetic. It's precisely these items that make plot design and building enjoyable to many of us.

I am a heavy Master crafter. Crafting is what I enjoy. Hunting most anything worthwhile has always be hard for me between the Mobs chain casting debuffs and my attacks not going off cause of lag or whatever and just standing there watching my health drain down til I bite the dust is not my cup of tea. I only hunt when I have to to satisfy my crafting mostly.
My biped counterpart has 72 T2 silos completed, 140 T4 silos planned and I think 14 T6 Silos for a total of 226. I plan on using them all if/when I ever get them all completed. At the moment I've taken a break from the game. My plans are/were to eventually replace the 72 T2 silos with either T4 or T6 ones. I tossed up the T2 ones to give me something to use right away as I took my time completely/replacing them and the others at my leisure. I guess I'm going to have to give up on that dream. Since you can have 150 total between the 6 tiers why not just make it 150 total instead of 25 of each? Of course I Like better the idea of multiple stacks in each silo.

[Northwind]

Mercedes' plot on Order, in northern most part of Mithril Anvil has (more than) 50x T6 and 50x T4 silos completed or planned.
I spent there a lot of quality time grinding marble as a dragon and marble/yew/essence as biped using the silos that she kindly made available to the community.
And this is just an example.

[Calyndrell]

Well having just experimented with a 90x90 plot. I placed one of every machine available (not including vaults, connies, taverns). Even cramming everything as close together as possible I could not fit 25 of each tier silo (only using tier 3 to 6) and 25 of each tier store house (again only using tier 4 to 6). The plot was an experiment to see if they would would fit and they don't. I would love to see a screen shot of the plot plan from anyone who has managed to design a plot that has managed to build all 25 of every silo/storehouse from tiers 3 to 6 with all machines available for crafting.