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Thread: Talk to the Team: Stuns

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Stuns

    This is a thread that is related to the Clarity2 discussion here. The basic idea is that Clarity2 is a band-aid that attempts to cover a wider problem which is the over-use of stuns among monsters (and players, though to a lesser extent) creating perma-stun situations. Removing the large number of obvious perma-stun situations (for example, by removing Paralyzing Gaze from a huge number of monsters) will go a long way to improving gameplay and fun.

    So, what are we asking for your help with? Easy, here are the goals of this thread:
    • Request player feedback regarding potential changes to a wide range of Stuns (both player and monster abilities)
    • Request player assistance in tracking down all of the monsters that stun too frequently


    Currently, we have identified three areas that we'll be addressing, but we're asking for your help with identifying others in order to speed up the process.

    Admittedly some of these have less impact overall than Paralyzing Gaze, but they create situations where the monsters are no fun to fight and in some cases create a barrier to entry (such as with the Muck Crabs). The ones we're going to address (or have addressed) already are:
    • Paralyzing Gaze - Removing it from the majority of non-boss monsters, lowering the duration of the Trepidation debuff
    • Thundering Strike - Appeared to have the capability to continue indefinitely and repeatedly stun. Will be correcting this to be a single stun.
    • Ogre Cry - Will be making this non-stun entirely, instead it will be a Mind DoT.
    • Muck Miasma - Will be making this single target instead of AoE.
    • Area Spellbind/Spellbind - Make sure that the duration of the buff is 15-30 seconds, shorter than the recycle of the ability that gives it.
    • Clarity2 - AoE short-term immunity to stun/mez.


    Would appreciate your feedback, comments, suggestions on this. Thank you.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Well, people are used with the system so why change it? Did anyone rage-quit due to it? I sincerely don't think so.

    Yes, perma stun happens, you die, ressurect, etc.
    I must admit that, with a strong DAoC background, i was quite baffled the system allows that many stuns with no stun immunities. For example in DAoC even a 2s stun would give you after expiration a 60s stun immunity buff.
    But I got over it and i started to like it and to find ways to counter it. For me it is part of the game and is one of the aspects that makes it entertaining and dangerous. Remember it's a PVE game, you cannot get adrenaline rush from pvp so what's left? Venture amongst the undeads and various other nasties that can and will kill you.

    When I was set to hunt perma stunners (ogres or skulks for comps) i used to ask for a clarity buff - that is till i leveled my own sorc. Stun Problem solved. That didn't made me immortal - I still died a lot - way too manyt times I'd say.
    But I rarely run with a Clarity II buff up so running into a stunner can really spice things up.

    Removing all or even most of the stuns from the game to justify the alteration of Clarity II is not the answer, imo
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
    Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwind View Post
    Removing all or even most of the stuns from the game to justify the alteration of Clarity II is not the answer, imo
    Good thing that isn't the reason for these changes then.

    I must admit that, with a strong DAoC background, i was quite baffled the system allows that many stuns with no stun immunities. For example in DAoC even a 2s stun would give you after expiration a 60s stun immunity buff.


    I agree, that would be ideal. Unfortunately I don't have the tech to do this... YET. If or when I do I'll certainly be adding it to both monsters and players.

    Remember it's a PVE game, you cannot get adrenaline rush from pvp so what's left? Venture amongst the undeads and various other nasties that can and will kill you.


    Yes, but perma-stuns are not the way to do this. If they were then the big MMOs would do it, but they don't. Better monsters, better mixes of spawns, etc should be what we are going for instead.
    Last edited by AmonGwareth; June 8th, 2013 at 12:55 PM.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    First thing: I agree with Nortwind in all points!

    Though I hate to be stunned and watch my drags die without being able to do something-
    I love the challange the way it is.
    Don`t think that there is always a Sorc available to give me ClarityII.
    Most of the time I have to face the mezzes and stunns alone.
    With good tactics- you can survive or even win.
    That does NOT mean that I could or want to live without ClarityII the way it was.
    But I could deal with the suggestion Amon made for it in another thread.

    And please do not change any other things (like discribed above)- I think we all need a break from *hmmmm* that atm.

    I speak for Flame/Lupus here too.

    (btw: Carrion Crawlers are nice stunners too^^)
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    I want to add something:

    Please consider: Its not only the vet-players who dislike clarity II and stuns to be changed in any way
    (because they never want anything to be changed at all ^^ :-P)

    The newer player also agree with us here.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Flameus Nimrod: 100/100/100/100 Lupussan Nimrod: Adventure Rating 278 - Crafting Rating 234 GMC

  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Eh, consider me a veteran player who hates mob stuns. Get two ogres on you and spend the next 5 minutes slowly getting beaten down and unable to recall away. It's incredibly frustrating and is an example of fake difficulty. Bring on the changes to stuns, let's make things more enjoyable for people.
    Ssilmath Torshak, Paladin of the Lost, Shaman of the Damned, Master Armorsmith

    My other "crack would be cheaper" hobby
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Yes I have to agree with Ssilmath here. I do not like the way the stuns work at the moment either. Try to go hunt storm ogres or go down to doom sometime and hit a rather large pocket of perma stunning Carrion Crawlers. You simply can't move and don't live long enough do anything, not even heal or run.

    While I don't mind stuns and the challenge they present (you will only have ever heard me ask for Clarity II when going after Daknor), I also don't like being stunned repeatedly in a long chain nor do I enjoy the perma stun on more powerful mobs. Although I'm one to not mind getting 15 dp chalked up in a hunt, its just massive frustration racking up 10 dp in a row to perma/chained stuns alone.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    The deadly poisons which are a cause of veteran tarantulas, etc. are very aggravating. Please either make the Cure Poison spells more accessible to players or else reduce the recycle/increase the immunity duration on it. 2minutes buff with 5minutes recycle is very long, for a spell that I had to go to lengths to procure.

    I'm aware that there is a potion available that also does the trick, but it cannot be used if you are already stunned by deadly poison, despite the description stating otherwise.

    Alternatively, reduce the duration of the deadly poison effect or remove the stun altogether and replace it with a stronger DoT. I understand the realism you are going for with a paralysing spider bite, but without access to the buff you are left very vulnerable in situations where you are 90% of the time mobbed by other creatures (notably Purple Tarantulas and Purple Weavers.)
    Bumbling Ancient and grumbling Satyr on Chaos- if Helians are supposed to be 'spellcasters', then why is Wintheria, the Gold Rage trainer, a Helian?
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Quote Originally Posted by Meredas View Post
    The deadly poisons which are a cause of veteran tarantulas, etc. are very aggravating. Please either make the Cure Poison spells more accessible to players or else reduce the recycle/increase the immunity duration on it. 2minutes buff with 5minutes recycle is very long, for a spell that I had to go to lengths to procure.

    I'm aware that there is a potion available that also does the trick, but it cannot be used if you are already stunned by deadly poison, despite the description stating otherwise.

    Alternatively, reduce the duration of the deadly poison effect or remove the stun altogether and replace it with a stronger DoT. I understand the realism you are going for with a paralysing spider bite, but without access to the buff you are left very vulnerable in situations where you are 90% of the time mobbed by other creatures (notably Purple Tarantulas and Purple Weavers.)
    Thanks, good catch and suggestions. I've added it to the list to look at. Perhaps a DoT with a speed debuff instead. We'll see.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    I have no experience with Clarity II, and fairly little with this game's Stun effect, so I can't comment directly. Indirectly however, I do play a PvE MUD where it is quite possible for mobs to permastun players. As a counter, there are several schools with spells that provide high stun resistance (but not immunity), which last for (approximately) 5 to 10 minutes based on spell and caster's stats. The spells can't be refreshed though. Once cast on a player, it has to wear off before a new one can be put up. Additionally there are some skills that reduce stun length or, in one case, keep up melee attacks even when stunned. Heavy armor also reduces the chances of being stunned. Still, any tank outside of newbie-dom tries to take along someone that can cast one of the stun resistance spells since most areas have mobs with the stun skill. So as long as people group, and the anti-stun abilities have reasonable durations and a recycle that is less than the duration, stunny mobs can be dealt with.

    Oh, it's also possible for players with the stun skill to stun mobs, but higher level and boss mobs are generally resistant, or outright immune, to stuns. In certain cases players have been able to permastun mobs.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Stuns would bother me less if Energy Ward had a chance to prevent stuns from being applied to my toon and/or Energy Resistance lowered the duration of stuns that got applied to my toon.
    I just lost the game.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Quote Originally Posted by jerk-o View Post
    Stuns would bother me less if Energy Ward had a chance to prevent stuns from being applied to my toon and/or Energy Resistance lowered the duration of stuns that got applied to my toon.
    Energy and Stuns have no relation in the game so that wouldn't work. Also, resistances are used against damage only.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwind View Post
    ... i was quite baffled the system allows that many stuns with no stun immunities. For example in DAoC even a 2s stun would give you after expiration a 60s stun immunity buff....
    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I agree, that would be ideal. Unfortunately I don't have the tech to do this... YET...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ssilmath View Post
    Eh, consider me a veteran player who hates mob stuns. Get two ogres on you and spend the next 5 minutes slowly getting beaten down and unable to recall away. It's incredibly frustrating...
    Instead of getting rid of stuns, just adjust the recycles of the abilities that grant those stuns. For example, the Ogre Cry situation Ssilmath pointed out, You get hit by ogre cry by one ogre, 4 seconds later the other ogre hits you with ogre cry again, 4 seconds later the first ogre uses it again... perma stun. Give the ability a 60 second recycle instead of a 10 second recycle. All them ogres do is cast stun stun stun every 10 seconds.. It's ridiculous. Same applies to the Carrion Crawlers, and those nasty mobs in old rachival.

    Then it would be less of a death sentence. But could still get exciting and close if you get 3 or 4 on you.

    Carrion Crawlers - shorten the stun duration, adjust the ability recycle up to a few minutes. (keep it a stun)

    Ogre Cry - adjust the ability recycle up alot. (keep it a stun)

    Making these adjustments would also less the pain of Clarity II being changed (though I rarely relied on that except for Elite Blight Anchor fights). I think some players over-reacted to Clarity II changes, we got along fine without it for years (when was the hyped up version put in? maybe a year or two back?).

    Elite Blight Hounds - spacing and mob density of these is fine. They stun alot, but it's a short stun. This would be I think the example of a properly implemented stun system.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    What about for ogre cry /thundering blow. What about keeping them the same as they are but have it instaed of one ogre cry just getting refreshed by the use of another ogre make it so if another ogre uses the same or similar abiltiy it will simply fail because player is already stunned

  15. #15

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Ogre Cry has a 60 second recycle currently and there is no way to link abilities on different monsters. I'm not getting rid of stuns, but I do think they are over-used. Not all mobs need stuns, it makes it commonplace instead of a challenge.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    for a clarification what kind of stuns are you referring to short timed stuns or long time stuns specifcially

  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    A dragon has little challenges in the end game. Just make sure you don't dumb down the game too much.
    Same goes for a heavily multiclassed biped too.
    Northwind * Ancient, Crafter, Lairshaper * 100/100/100
    Northpole * Spoiled biped * 100 BTLM, 100 CLRC, 100 RVR, 100 RNGR, 100 MAGE, 100 WIZ, 100 SORC, 100 CONJ, 100 SPRT, 100 DRU, 100 HLR, 100 GRDN, 100 MON, 60 WAR, 44 BRSK/SPRM, 40 CHSW * 100 BLK, 100 OUT, 100 JWL, 100 ARM, 100 WPN, 100 FLE, 100 FIT, 100 MSN, 100 SCH, 87 SPL, 85 GTH, 85 MIN

  18. #18

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    As a player that loves to play a solo and as a ranger . I am very concerned about you wanting to change my best offensive ability ( Lightning Arrow ) . My only chance at defeating alot of Mobs where to equip Clarity II ( to advoid their stuns ) and hit them repeatedly with lightning arrow . Please leave these abilities alone so us players that like to level and play solo ( 85 % of the time ) can still play this wonderful and challanging game .

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Quote Originally Posted by terrox View Post
    As a player that loves to play a solo and as a ranger . I am very concerned about you wanting to change my best offensive ability ( Lightning Arrow ) . My only chance at defeating alot of Mobs where to equip Clarity II ( to advoid their stuns ) and hit them repeatedly with lightning arrow . Please leave these abilities alone so us players that like to level and play solo ( 85 % of the time ) can still play this wonderful and challanging game .
    I too would hate to see lightning arrow changed. I have never gained clarity as an ability, so I do not know what it is like to avoid their stuns save by making sure I have alacrity so that I hit them first.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Stuns

    Quote Originally Posted by terrox View Post
    As a player that loves to play a solo and as a ranger . I am very concerned about you wanting to change my best offensive ability ( Lightning Arrow ) . My only chance at defeating alot of Mobs where to equip Clarity II ( to advoid their stuns ) and hit them repeatedly with lightning arrow . Please leave these abilities alone so us players that like to level and play solo ( 85 % of the time ) can still play this wonderful and challanging game .
    This illustrates the very reason that stuns need to be addressed. The only way you felt you could play the game was to have an immunity to them. That means they are too common. Thanks for posting that. As someone said up above, perma-stuns do not make a game challenging or difficult, merely not very fun. Creating difficulty through better monsters with various tactics or abilities is the proper way to go and what we'll be working towards.

    Regarding lightning arrows, I don't foresee it needing a change. Yes, every attack can cause a stun, but its not a 100% chance each time, the stun only lasts for 3 seconds, and its single target.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

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