On Personal Investment

[Tamianth]

Oh, so fyakkis are this years tool for the aspiring powerlvller? Please do to them what you did a few years ago when it was the purple necroflies that these "players" would drag hatchlings along to - that was when the whole "group with too high a lvl char and have your exp nerfed to shreds" was put in, to try and stop all this crap. Now of course, they've learnt to not group, but just mass heal and other such cheating tactics, so that the hatchie gets the exp......Ive heard about the healing trick, but no others. This lot have become very secretive about their methods. Of course when asked, they bleat "Oh, but I am only helping with a few heals, not powrlvlling!"...Yeah right. But I cant even see how that would work, as these hatchies dont even have any abilities, so how do they even hit stuff.....oh well, I dont really want to know, I would just like to see it stop :/

[Hoberton]

It also goes back to one of my suggestions about doing away with the invisible option. These guilds that powerlevel are almost always on invisible to hide what they are doing.

[Steelclaw]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Before going further, a clarification on a few points:
* The proposal applies to all accounts and does not discriminate between free, trial, or paid.

* I recognize that some veteran players may want to play characters with odd school configurations, such as no craft, no adventure, or neither. I want to avoid intruding on this ability. If you already know how to play, and you want to do something weird, then why not?

* The purpose of the token is to enable an established player to sponsor the new player or alt. This allows the new player or alt to effectively skip the tutorial quests. That said, I intend for the process of creating the token to be nontrivial and the tokens difficult to store in any considerable quantity (read: they're really, really bulky).

Now, on to a few points that caught my attention:

* Minimum levels - require the character to have some minimum level to get off the starting island.

This makes it impossible for veteran players to play characters with non-standard school configurations. It would hurt me to see those players punished because of some unrelated group of people.


* Free accounts aren't the only source of trouble.

Correct. I never said they were the only source of trouble. The lack of requiring some kind of investment manifests on all three types of account -- trial, free and paid. Nobody is singling out the free-to-play players, and the proposal does not differentiate between account types.


* Veteran players should not have to do the tutorial quests for every new character they create. Maybe every alt should get a token once one character completes the tutorial quests.

Agreed on the first point. If you already know how to play, then you don't need to learn, right? On the second, we don't have a streamlined process to do this, so it's not practical for the foreseeable future. That's where the tokens come in. If you're already an experienced player, you have the resources to get such a token to your alt -- either by creating it yourself or getting a friend to help you.


* It's mostly dragons on trial accounts causing trouble.

That may or may not actually be the case, however, they'd be subject to the same restrictions as bipeds. The proposal does not differentiate between race.

As an aside, I ask that everyone refrain from comparing the behavior of dragons and bipeds, or singling out the behavior of either. To mention either specifically is just going to cause another bipeds vs dragons flame war. We can talk about both collectively as players, since they're all the same under this proposal.


* Power-leveling and giving stuff away for free is the real problem.

That's a whole different discussion, along with ROP/AROP requirements, low-risk mobs, and everything else related. I'm not trying to fix that issue here. That's totally out of the scope of this proposal. Maybe we can have that talk another time.

As far as this proposal goes, if a player is able to either prove that they know how to play, or have someone willing to invest modest effort on their behalf, then the player is welcome to use whatever existing game mechanics are available to them.

In general, the side discussion of power-leveling and leading hatchlings around on their ROP is starting to sound a bit like a witch-hunt. Please refrain from discussing power-leveling (as well as the individuals and guilds participating in this activity). Continued discussion of power-leveling does not help evaluate the proposal and will cause a flame war.

Seriously. I want to avoid having to find someone to edit/delete posts, as nobody will be happy with the results if that happens.



Thanks again and keep the comments coming!

[LOVWYRM]

just my vote

Arzel said all I had to say in his posts,and I agree with Chasing and Guaran too.

[Arzel Rashemi]

* The purpose of the token is to enable an established player to sponsor the new player or alt. This allows the new player or alt to effectively skip the tutorial quests. That said, I intend for the process of creating the token to be nontrivial and the tokens difficult to store in any considerable quantity (read: they're really, really bulky).

I would say would it be neccessary to make the tokens account bound, otherwise you will have the problem with players just sitting in the tutorial areas crafting or selling them to new players, which would defeat the whole purpose of instituting a system like this.

Perhaps you could have it work like loyalty tokens or other deliverables in the character selection window, but with an infinite amount. Or an amount great enough you know that they aren't going to be able to use that much.

[Northwind]

This will work against the ones that have multiple accounts

[Azath]

I would say would it be neccessary to make the tokens account bound, otherwise you will have the problem with players just sitting in the tutorial areas crafting or selling them to new players, which would defeat the whole purpose of instituting a system like this.

Perhaps you could have it work like loyalty tokens or other deliverables in the character selection window, but with an infinite amount. Or an amount great enough you know that they aren't going to be able to use that much.

A shame that loyalty tokens aren't attuned yet? I can give some my loyalty tokens, in game (i.e. by literally trading the tokens to them) and thye can get stuff. Though, how the loyalty tokens are intended to work, this is a great suggestion!

* I recognize that some veteran players may want to play characters with odd school configurations, such as no craft, no adventure, or neither. I want to avoid intruding on this ability. If you already know how to play, and you want to do something weird, then why not?

* The purpose of the token is to enable an established player to sponsor the new player or alt. This allows the new player or alt to effectively skip the tutorial quests. That said, I intend for the process of creating the token to be nontrivial and the tokens difficult to store in any considerable quantity (read: they're really, really bulky).

Now, on to a few points that caught my attention:

* Veteran players should not have to do the tutorial quests for every new character they create. Maybe every alt should get a token once one character completes the tutorial quests.

Agreed on the first point. If you already know how to play, then you don't need to learn, right? On the second, we don't have a streamlined process to do this, so it's not practical for the foreseeable future. That's where the tokens come in. If you're already an experienced player, you have the resources to get such a token to your alt -- either by creating it yourself or getting a friend to help you.

The ONLY people i see using an "unusual" configuration off the start, are the ones who do the first two quests just to get into a school them drag them along to ED to powerlevel. I've never seen anyone with an unusual configuration otherwise - except for 0/0. This is really where Arzel's idea comes in - by bounding to account no fuss in getting a 0/0 up and outta NT...<refrains from complaing about vets powerleveling here>
I also STILL have something against craftable tokens. Right. Starting pack has 1000 bulk limit. This means the token would have to be about 900 bulk max (taking up whole inventory is a no, what if someone has stuff/is being given stuff(alts)) - At 900 bulk, a t6 pack is 3400 bulk max. With a clean inventory this allows 3 tokens, a t5 (lv100) tarbahses one stack (using this model as dragons use the tarbashes model) disk able to then carry 13 more. That's 16 on what should be it's max bulk. Even one with craft 20, at 900 bulk, with correct disk and pack can carry 8, which is still a big number either way. Even if you can't effectively store them, being able to hold enough for 8 - 16 new players is still too much. Now you said that the formula should be a bit like the cargo disk to craft it? I can craft a dragon disk under 5 minutes and biped disk in under 5 too. 5 minutes to craft a token, 30 mins to do the tuturial...i wonder which some new players would choose...We do have some very "generous" vets you know...

[Dracillion]

Reading the thread as it progress just reminded me of something from EQ. Make the starting point of Spirit Isle a "tutorial" option. Now, when you create a brand new account, you would have to progress through the tutorial. Granted you can leave at any time and EQ doesn't have the same issues as this game does, but, the idea can still be applied. New account, you would have a tutorial flag that would require your first character to start off on Spirit Isle and complete all of the quests on the island to progress to NT. If you have an existing account that has completed the tutorial once before, you can start automatically in NT. The Spirit Isle would involve an attunement quest that was given at the completion of all other quests, where then you can use the portal to get to NT. If you're outside Spirit Isle and you portal to Spirit Isle, you would have to also complete all of those quests to get attunement, however, because you were outside of Spirit Isle you most likely are also bound to a shrine outside and can simply recall to get out.

Basically, revamp the quests on Spirit Isle and Skaalkarrararar or whatever it's called, make all of the quests lead up to a final attunement quest that will gain access of those beginner isles and land you in NT. You will not be able to prevent existing players from helping newer ones, that just isn't going to happen. However, making just a couple changes to the existing quest lines on each tutorial and forcing completion of them to gain attunement to escape them seems like a simple enough fix.

OR

and hear me out on this ...

two words...

Zymosis Morbidae!

[Guaran]

...* I recognize that some veteran players may want to play characters with odd school configurations, such as no craft, no adventure, or neither. I want to avoid intruding on this ability. If you already know how to play, and you want to do something weird, then why not?

* The purpose of the token is to enable an established player to sponsor the new player or alt. This allows the new player or alt to effectively skip the tutorial quests. That said, I intend for the process of creating the token to be nontrivial and the tokens difficult to store in any considerable quantity (read: they're really, really bulky)...

And you would want them to have 0 cash value so they couldn't be consigned.

But I agree with other posters, that even making them bulky wouldn't likely stop some of those who PL new players. The PL'ers seem to hang about in New Trismus, can't say I've seen them on skalkarr or spirit isle, though I rarely go there. So having some work needed to be able to get off the isle I still think is a good idea however it comes about. I also think making the tutorial into a quest chain with the final reward the ability to teleport off the island is on the right track. I just still don't like the idea of the piece being craftable. Therefore I think the token is in itself, an un-necessary piece. I understand that a very few, small role players might want a character with no schools. For those users, I say just have them create the toon, then submit a ticket asking for it to be moved for them to new trismus. It's such a small handful that the support team is not going to be inundated with that sort of request. And it let's you eliminate a craftable token which very well could still be handed out by those who do all the PL'ing. Even if the token cost 1g to make (maybe it required a purchaseable component from a vendor to craft it), people would still give them away.

I just had another idea which might give the token method a better shot.

Only 1 token at a time can be on the player who is crafting it.

There is some sort of timer involved in crafting it, or, better yet, in using it. Something similiar to eating a main course of food. The craftable item is some sort of bulky food, uses a comp that costs 1g to craft it, only one at a time can be crafted or kept on the character (not sure how to do that last part). It has 0 cash value and therefore is worthless to Pawnbrokers and Consigners/Taverns. It takes 1 full hour after being "used/eaten" to finally "open" and grant the token to be able to get off the island. Since the time to eat it is longer than the time needed to do the quests, it becomes a much less attractive option for the ADHD players who are not taking the time to learn the basics of playing their toon. But, like Steelclaw said, for those who who want a toon with no schools, they can still accomplish it with some patience.

[Arzel Rashemi]

And you would want them to have 0 cash value so they couldn't be consigned.

I just had another idea which might give the token method a better shot.

Only 1 token at a time can be on the player who is crafting it.

There is some sort of timer involved in crafting it, or, better yet, in using it. Something similiar to eating a main course of food. The craftable item is some sort of bulky food, uses a comp that costs 1g to craft it, only one at a time can be crafted or kept on the character (not sure how to do that last part). It has 0 cash value and therefore is worthless to Pawnbrokers and Consigners/Taverns. It takes 1 full hour after being "used/eaten" to finally "open" and grant the token to be able to get off the island. Since the time to eat it is longer than the time needed to do the quests, it becomes a much less attractive option for the ADHD players who are not taking the time to learn the basics of playing their toon. But, like Steelclaw said, for those who who want a toon with no schools, they can still accomplish it with some patience.

That could work too to stop the issue of any players selling them on a connie or just hanging around and handing these things out like candy to whoever wants one or whoever they see. I support this idea as it addresses the issue of the system being bypassed in a way that it would fail its intended purpose.

[Ramaj]

Would it be an option to have a new character:

- go through the first 10 or 15 levels solo, whereby any assistance given will result in no gain in xp (be it damage to target by another, being healed or buffed by another during battles, etc.)

- No grouping until level 7(?) and then only being allowed to group with (a) player(s) of the same level or 1 level lower/ higher and only when a quest advises to "bring some friends"!

- no trading with other players until level 15(?); any equipment needed will have to be bought from npc or crafted by themselves or looted. (This will prevent new players being given stuff for free at low levels)
(Downside is having a level 0 mule may not be possible anymore, unless trading with an alt only be made possible at all times)

- placing items for sale on consigner in New Trismus (by all players!) for a fixed minimum price, giving new players the chance to be able to sell (crafted) items on a consigner and be able to earn some money too.

This "forces" the new player to learn game mechanics and would possibly encourage making use of the tutorial.
Also, restricting new players to the starter islands (or a token to leave there) would not really be needed, as the "restrictions" for new players are level-bound, and they can only benefit themselves by working through the tutorial !

Just my 2 cents ....

[Calyndrell]

Would it be an option to have a new character:

- go through the first 10 or 15 levels solo, whereby any assistance given will result in no gain in xp (be it damage to target by another, being healed or buffed by another during battles, etc.)

- No grouping until level 7(?) and then only being allowed to group with (a) player(s) of the same level or 1 level lower/ higher and only when a quest advises to "bring some friends"!

- no trading with other players until level 15(?); any equipment needed will have to be bought from npc or crafted by themselves or looted. (This will prevent new players being given stuff for free at low levels)
(Downside is having a level 0 mule may not be possible anymore, unless trading with an alt only be made possible at all times)

- placing items for sale on consigner in New Trismus (by all players!) for a fixed minimum price, giving new players the chance to be able to sell (crafted) items on a consigner and be able to earn some money too.

This "forces" the new player to learn game mechanics and would possibly encourage making use of the tutorial.
Also, restricting new players to the starter islands (or a token to leave there) would not really be needed, as the "restrictions" for new players are level-bound, and they can only benefit themselves by working through the tutorial !

Just my 2 cents ....

Please remember that first and foremost istaria is an MMO and player interaction is important. However I would make the xp cap effect any group less than 50th lvl rating with an rating shift of more than 10 levels.

In fact I would expand on this and make all quests lock if this rule is broken.

[Holth]

I'd like to respond to the three original points of this thread.

Situation 1: The person may be a new player and completely skip all of the introductory content, go to New Trismus, and get frustrated from not being able to do anything. The frustrated new player then irritates other players by asking fundamental questions that would have been answered, had the player at least gone through the first few minutes of the tutorials.

1. Make the tutorials user friendly and engaging. Keep each page short and sweet. A new player does not want to read a wall of text, they want to jump into the game. Use visuals!! A picture speaks a thousand words.

Example: Welcome to Spirit Isle *insert new player's name*! Please choose what you would like to learn:

Adventure *insert a picture of a character fighting a mob* - please speak to *insert NPC's name and a picture of that NPC* to choose your class and get details about it.

Crafting *insert a picture of a character building something* - please speak to *insert NPC's name and picture* to choose your class and get details about it.

If they choose to get more details about a class GIVE THEM PICTURES!! Fire their imagination. Make them WANT to play. Show them a fancy outfit or a cool looking weapon. Give them the idea, the goal, and the knowledge, right from the start that they can achieve this themselves.

Choosing one of these should point the player in the direction of the NPC and bring them past NPCs that are actually doing what the player has chosen. Watching a half-giant doing battle with a skeleton warrier or seeing a dwarf mining ore and making tools is going to capture their interest; even if it's nothing the player can interact with at this point, just something to give them a visual idea of gameplay and draw them into game interaction. Then the trainer they need to speak to should be right there - not half-way around the island.

Have the trainer give them a task and keep them within visual range of the NPCs they saw performing the task. Give them the idea they are not on the island by themselves. Put what they need to do right there - don't make new players run all over looking for nodes or machines or mobs. Keep going with this as you send the player further and further out and teach them each step to learn the class.

Populate the whole island with NPCs in various roles. Make the world look busy! Let the new player "see" what the game is about as they progress through the tutorial. This also gives them a reason to explore the island and watch as they learn.

Not a new player? Want to skip the tutorial? Direct them to the portal to New Trismus, but station more NPCs along the way - give them a reason to stop and watch various parts of gameplay. Giving the training islands a sense of population and action may keep many new players from feeling isolated and wanting to rush out into the "real" world.

Situation 2: The person has no interest in actually playing Istaria. They want to cause trouble by being a pest to other players or spamming. Account banned? No problem. Make another!

2. This one is easy to fix. Ban the IP address, not the email account. Second infraction? Ban the MAC address. Trolls will always be trolls. Get rid of them.

Situation 3: The person wants everyone else to play their character. They don't want to do anything for themselves -- someone else kills the mobs, leads them around on their quests, makes their items, fights the epic mobs.... Then the person gets bored and leaves!

3. See # 1. THIS IS KEY - Engage the new player right from the start. Give them a reason to "want" to play for themselves. There will always be current players who want to help new players. Stopping a current player from leading a new player around by the nose or giving them everything is not going to keep the new player from getting bored and leaving. Giving a new player a reason to want to play for themselves and learn is.

Add a new class called mentoring (or something like that) that veteran players have to do "x" to open up to join, but gives them rewards for helping new players achieve specific goals; not doing it for them, but guiding them - not really sure how to make this work.


Istaria is a very complex game and has an incredibly steep learning curve. Give new folks the tools they need to learn how to play and find the answers to their questions. A link to the wiki would be a great start.

Give existing players a reason to stay and not be bored into playing the game for a new player. Crafting is a huge part of playing Istaria. Capitalize on that. After "x" number of months of paying for a sub give each sub the option to purchase another plot/lair using in-game coin. Make it ALOT of coin. Give players a reason to hunt, craft and sell, and make coin to purchase another plot/lair. If you have to add more plots/lairs to the world - DO IT! This keeps existing players in the game, gives them the specific goal to earn the coin and do more building, and makes paying players feel rewarded for paying for a sub.

Thaalia of Order

[LOVWYRM]

Holth, such great ideas!!
I sign that all- would be happy to see it all ingame

[Terao]

Motivation may need more work to the game, I second everything Holth said, and it will give the game and its community a lot more then harsh penalties that have been discussed here.

[Guaran]

Anything that can improve the new player experience is a good thing.

Not sure how feasible all of that is, but improvements to the tutorial might help some of the issues the op mentioned.

Perhaps also, once a player completes a tutorial, they get a little popup window with ability to send feedback on the tutorial. Maybe something that says "Want an extra free week of playtime? submit you feedback on this tutorial for a chance to win!" Then if the submission warrants, devs can add the week for them. Input from people who use the tutorial might give some good insight. Since I know how to play the game myself (or someone else familiar to the game such as the dev's themselves), I might overlook something that a new player will have a question or confusion about.

[Kyala]

Anything that can improve the new player experience is a good thing.

Not sure how feasible all of that is, but improvements to the tutorial might help some of the issues the op mentioned.

Perhaps also, once a player completes a tutorial, they get a little popup window with ability to send feedback on the tutorial. Maybe something that says "Want an extra free week of playtime? submit you feedback on this tutorial for a chance to win!" Then if the submission warrants, devs can add the week for them. Input from people who use the tutorial might give some good insight. Since I know how to play the game myself (or someone else familiar to the game such as the dev's themselves), I might overlook something that a new player will have a question or confusion about.

It's a good idea, feedback is a necessary thing to have. But the extra week sounds rather juicy, so better be prepared for a lot of submissions, be it useless or helpful. *Chuckles*

[AmonGwareth]

Anything that can improve the new player experience is a good thing.

Not sure how feasible all of that is, but improvements to the tutorial might help some of the issues the op mentioned.

Agreed, improving the new player experience is a good thing. We've done that several times over the last 10 years and will continue to do so moving forward.

Sadly most of Thaalia's suggestions are not feasible with the current client and systems.

[Kritterly]

I just spent my first day in the game with a level 1 dragon named UUUUUVVVVVVWWWWWW following me around Skalkaar. It didn’t bother me so much seeing that I was busy learning how the camera worked and reading the blue tutorial windows anyways. But then once I got my bearings and was ready to move onto New Trismus, he followed me through the portal and all around the new land too. I logged out for dinner and when I got back there was a new level 1 dragon named XXXXXXYYYYYYZZZZZZ in New Trismus. *rolls eyes*

I am not sure the token idea would work, but many games have lands or areas unlock at a particular level. I played a horse game that would not let you leave the stable area until you proved that you could ride the horse around the arena, lol. At first it seemed silly, but after bumping the poor horse into a few walls as I got my bearings, it seemed like a pretty good idea to make sure a player knows how to ride before letting them venture out into the open land.

The same thing should apply here by simply locking the portal to get off of Skalkaar until you complete the quests or hit level 6. Then doing the same to the portal in New Trismus. It would be locked until you reach level 10 or so. A veteran player can reach level 6 or 10 in no time at all and would be well worth the time spent if they are actually "keeping” the character.

Just my two cents from the view of a new-ish player.
Kritterly

[Veruliyam]

As I recall, the last time I did a new character, the quests on the islands only got you to level 3 or four.

I don't think grinding on the new islands is a good idea...