What would happen if...

[Aamer Khan]

Every time players discuss the "economy" they have many ideas and comments. So many opinions on what would happen, or how hard it would become if xyz thing happened. Here I have outlined a question. Please feel free to respond in any manner you choose. But, please try and stay on the topic. I will keep track of this thread and respond where needed. I will NOT get into a debate over any differences in personal viewpoints.

What would be the ACTUAL effect of completly removing the Pawn Brokers from game?
First off, lets start at the bottom. New players come into game and pick blacksmith as their trade skill. The trainer gives them a few forms to get started, and the go out to level a bit. Now, they have a few swords crafted and since they can't just pawn them, they list them on the consigner. No trainer would buy crafted items at all.

The ONLY ways for this new player to make money is, IF someone buys his wares, or he goes out and does a bit of hunting. But seeing as how all other crafters are in the same boat, there will be plenty of competition, leading to much more on the consigners. And even though it would be a challenge at the start, the bonus is that the prices for beginner items would become more affordable to new players not less. Would this be bad?

Next, the mid-level crafters would have started to understand teching and adding colors, what is in demand and what is not. They too would now be able to charge more because of having higher skills. Also, they would have needed to become more involved in the adventure side, or at least adventurers for the comps they can provide. Prices will reflect what it costs to make an item at this level. Items will now actually have value. Would this be bad?

For the Higher levels, items become more rare and more valuable. Triple teching Mithril Plate can be very costly and complex. Excess money ingame now would be helped to leave the economy by this. No more making 1 gold over the weekend by high levels pawning mithril tools and armor. Would this be bad?

Finally, removing the PB's from game means converting any building from being a PB to something else, lest we loose the work put into such a building. Perhaps a tiered formulatron, or slotbot. Or perhaps a specialty vendor like Jacques from the Fall Festival even that would sell items for an event. and ALWAYS stock items like fireworks or food items. What would be YOUR suggestion?

Would this disrupt the current state of things? YES ( and thats a good thing )
Would there be a period of adjustment where almost everyone would complain? YES.
Would it help to get the economy back in the hands of the players? YES.
Would it help to make a dependance between crafters and adventurers? YES.

Would this be bad?

[Seranthor]

Actually I think that in the current state of the economy that it is improving with the behind the scenes actions of AE and with the further dissemination of the t4/t5 tech drops... prices are dropping nicely and honestly if you take out the PBs then your hamstringing the crafters where the demand for their goods becomes finite and they no longer want to craft... This would be the case w/o also adding item decay (shudder) to the equation... you need at least one steady stream of cash into the economy and sadly the mobs aren't it anymore with the coin drops as per AE... so the only remaining avenue for cash is the PBs.

[Vesuvius]

Keep PBs in game but change them so that they only buy loot from mobs that is strictly for selling.Selling a wolfhidemakes more sense than a wolf dropping 300c. Every creature dropping crafting resources is rather lame. Crafters only need money to buy high level forms/techs and to do portals. To compensate, remove crafting effects on portal costs. (A true pure crafter would have no cost at all).

[Tigris]

We've got a deflated economy at the moment, so I'm not sure re moving the PB's will help much. It's the kinda thing where a few people have 99% of the money and the rest of people are broke. AE puts in more money sinks, and takes only the poor people's money. Taking the PB out of the game would remove a main money source for a lot of the poor people in the game just as well as the rich ones.

[R`aven_Sky`Dash]

interesting...how bout adding gathered "bonus resources" to the list of things a PB can only buy? kinda like the crafting version of a trophy hunter. Removin portal costs would not be good imho though.

[Flin]

Personally I think this is a bad idea.

When I look around in game I see lots of characters 40 and up. I rarely see any lower level characters, and this includes the time I have spent at NB Mining Bronze or Quarrying Sandstone.

I think that by taking out one of the few things a new character can do to earn coin to buy himself better armor or weapons would be a mistake.

Mid Level Crafters are only going to be interested in increasing their levels, so they won't want to waste the time working on gear that has a very low return of XP points.

The situation I see now is that the 70+ crafter ends up spending so much of his time gathering Components that he gets frustrated with making gear and refuses to do it unless the person requesting it supplies his own Components. If he does go gathering lower Tier components he gets chewed on by those few lower level adventurers that he does run into for "spawn Hogging" because he wants to gather resources quickly and get back to what he likes to do.

I myself need quite a few Imbued armor splinters and flame bone splinters for my next set of armor. Since the Western Deadlands has been changed so much it is not practical for me to attempt to solo there, and since I do not like to group much I am left to try to buy componenets from the Vielo, which isn't going to happen because I refuse to pay the prices they want.
I also refuse to pay the prices that I see in the auctions for the formulas and tech components I need so I end up attempting to gather components from mobs up to 10 levels higher than I am (or at least in the same area as these mobs) all the while hoping that the prices for items finally start dropping low enough for me to be able to either afford them, or at least not feel raped when I do buy them.

My frustration level has been steadily increasing ever since the major changes to the mobs and the resources. The final straw will probably be one of the bugs that seem to be everywhere and just appear to get lip service while more bugs are added to the game with each content change.

I just keep telling myself.. remember, you were playing another game when you came here, it has to get better sometime.

[Poony666]

If the game stays the way it is now and just remove the PB's, then it would be a bad thing, there simply isnt enough good ways to make money at its current state.

When i say good enough, i mean good enough to be able to buy expert forms etc.
Sure prices will drop eventually but still...

[Fireclaw]

Pawnbrokers are needed. Without pawnbrokers the only source of NEW cash into the into the economy will be:
1. mob coin drops - when most mobs drop no coin
2. sale of trophy hunter tokens - which don't drop often enough to provide much coin

If the PBs are removed then THE major source of fresh cash into the economy is destroyed. The result will be that the economy will stagnate. Those who already have lots of cash will be able to buy whatever they want. Those who are poor will be out of luck, with no real way to get new cash. The result is that the concentration of cash into the hands of a few will get even more pronounced than it is today.

Also, pawnbrokers ARE the equivalent of money drops and trophy token drops for pure crafters. The player base is far too small to allow pure crafters to afford the forms/techs/comps they need from merely selling items to adventurers. Pawnbrokers thus serve a vital function.

Unless, AE dramatically raises money drops, pawnbrokers are an integral part of the economy and should not be changed.

[Safire]

We've got a deflated economy at the moment, so I'm not sure re moving the PB's will help much. It's the kinda thing where a few people have 99% of the money and the rest of people are broke. AE puts in more money sinks, and takes only the poor people's money. Taking the PB out of the game would remove a main money source for a lot of the poor people in the game just as well as the rich ones.

yea im one of the other 1% :(

[evilkarl]

I don't think the PB should be removed. Keep them on trainer islands and kion.

Then limit how much they will buy back from an individual based on their highest level. That is adv or craft. Perhaps 10s/10 levels a day at the most could be pawned (or 100s for a level 100 player). This way new players to the game would not be impacted and it would make pawnie runs a great deal less effective.

[Aamer Khan]

Thanks for those responses.

I was just asking that question to get a better feel for what people are thinking.

I'm watching the prices for even the most rare items fall dramatically.

And yet I still see new players running around, and still get requests for bronze and iron armor.

I will say that it ain't right yet, but the "economy" is getting better...

Soon, it will stabilize, and perhaps we will be able to grab control of it from AE :)

[Joolara]

Let me say this - if there was no pawn broker, crafters would charge a fortune to craft - it would be their only source of income.

[Vahrokh]

Well since September I managed to gain and spend in formulas and techs 15.5 gold (before I was at like 300s).

3 of those gold came by pawning gems given me in exchange of ferrying the raw gems resource for a friend of mine.

The remaining 12.5 came off paid armors and spells and consigners.
Being a dude who works for a living and has some family problems to cope with I cannot even think of myself as a 24/7 dedicated player. I feel like I am in the average and not that special. Yet I did such money.

I don't see that of a bleak future if pawnbrokers are either removed or at least tamed down to the original intent.

A pawn should get the fugly mob drops and basically remove unwanted items off game, not be a reliable money source to make everyone able to gain even 1 gold a day.

I noticed how some people left the market channel completely as now they don't even need to "compete" or "be able at selling" any more.

There is that sweet mommy pawn always awaiting you and ready to throw gobs of money at you.

What those vitaminic pawns do nowadays (and the haste at building locked high tier pawns confirms that fully) is to generate loads of money.
In EU the inflation is explosive. I can ask 2g for a tech like armor V or Speed V and still be sure for someone to buy it.
I can ask 40c a iron bar (and I do because it's a boring no exp job) and people will order them the same.
Likewise I can ask 150c a cobalt bar and get orders.
On the contrary, to show off how tier V resources are misplaced, I cannot ask more than 100c for a mithril bar.

A pawn should be there just to drop refuses, bad mob drops and junk like hides, to help newbies earn their first cash.

What happens now instead?

We have a little influx of newbies.

/bitter mode diversion on
Well, in my country, where GN is btw, magazines published that AE went Chapter 8 and Horizons is no more.

Likewise Horizons is not in shops, is not advertised is not spread by word of mouth and the Christas fills shops with EQ2 and WoW boxes.
/bitter mode diversion off

The first thing they learn is that pawns and not consigners or other players are the way to go.

High tier crafters (most high level people nowadays) pass days digging mithril or gems to pawn and get huge cash.
Notice how this does not involve any requirement of individual skill or commercial ability.
It's a task that a macro could do, yet they (me included) are in the position of gaining enormous sums by just "botting".
Proof is that near mithril we can find a pawn. Pawn has become a machinery like a smelter.
The day becomes: dig mithril, smelt at 20 meters, pawn at 10 meters, rinse and repeat.
And people WILL do this inane task because when someome finds a tech V knows that it's possible to sell it for 200s - 2g because people can grind such money.

The end result is:

- Very few people with no life that amass huge loads of money with no skill involved but having lots of time.
While I am ok for a guy to be in advantage because he dedicates much more time, I am less ok when the much more time is all and only what he has and needs.
Where is the challenge or competition, the sensation of an alive game in a task a 5 year old could do easily?

- Consigners suffer. Less tech drops for sale since several adventurers got both pissed about the nil drops of deadly mobs and discovered they can gain 100 x more by "crafting" (I place in "" because making a base item for a NPC to me is not crafting. Is almost botting).
- Consigners suffer more by lower people who cannot still farm the mithril so they eat each other by continuous undercutting. Tier IV spells at 1s for some could seem to be a good deal, and for some short time it is.
- Consigners suffer even more after a while, when the "good crafters" that have more expenses to stay updated and aquire costly formulas or techs stop placing their stuff on consigners because pawning gives much more. With the added benefit that no one calls you a thief because you asked 5s for a tier IV spell because you value your time and at Kion is placed at 1s.
I am stil laughing at the guy who first sold me a tech for a hefty price (public bid of hot tech to suck all the money possible of course) and then complained when I asked him 25s for a spell using exactly that tech.

The cheapo spells you find on consigners (I talk about what I do usually, maybe it's different for other classes) and scales are made with no skill involved, they are the same very bulk spells you craft in disc loads to grind experience.
They are basic "sell for sure" not teched gifts or enhances. Cheap and fast cash for the poor and unskilled that set lower standards that will be demanded off who spent golds to stay updated.
Result: 1 month I don't sell a spell on a consigner.
1 Month I get people asking me spells V at 8s and I tell them I won't move a finger for that when I can get much more filling up a load of gems and pawining them.

What will lead in the near future? To a future similar to NA: huge deflation and depression.

Pawns will give all so much money that every request will cost so much that will seem to be crazy and not accepted.
The transactions will go down to null and after the adventurers the game will start losing the Crafters (not the frenzied pawners) that won't be able to sell highly priced stuff to recover from the huge expenses in techs (seems a contradiction, but even if you are rich by pawning you feel rectlutant at giving another guy 50 pumped silver for an item so business dies) so the game becomes just pawn and gain and boredom.


Pawns need to be revised. Deeply.
Maybe not removed, but be modified so they only accept junk drops, limit them to get infinite tier I and II and blighed stuff so newbies can earn some coin but limit to 100s max a CD (else we'd see alts galore!) key for higher tier resources.

Only then we'll see reasonable prices back.