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Thread: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Figured since this came up in another thread I'd go ahead and post it. The basic idea for an Alchemist Revamp would be to redo it in a manner similar to Confectioner. More potions with a wider variety of purpose, use the primary skill system, and make wider use of a larger range of resources. Using gems and ores and orbs is kind of dull. Using resources processed from monster parts, from deconstructed items, etc would be interesting.

    My original idea was to change it so that every potion required five components:
    • Container - Not just glass vials, but perhaps other types of vials (Crystal or even magical ones) or jars (clay, metal, etc)
    • Suspension - Water, Blessed Water, existing Suspensions, etc
    • Resource #1
    • Resource #2
    • Catalyst - Something to make the chemical reaction go, like essence orbs or materia or something


    As far as potion types I think a good range might include:
    • Stat Boosts
    • Trade-skill Boosts
    • HoTs
    • Dyes


    Some other crazier ideas for potions would be:
    • Temporary Abilities - Consume a potion to gain the power of something
    • Monster Visage - Alter your resistances to be more like Monster X
    • Scale - Raise or Lower your character scale


    Just some ideas. Thoughs?
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Being a budding Alchemist, and really enjoying the depth to which Istaria goes with crafting, I must say that adding more components to a typical potion, wouldn't be amiss. I especially like the idea of using more components from varying sources, rather than just gems/metals/essence. You could incorporate something like herbalism, by using "confectioner" ingredients as well. Some of the Istarian fungi and other more exotic plants that are sometimes used in food could also be used in potions.

    As for potion types, I'll reiterate what I said in the last thread. Any crafting class should have a solid base of things they can make without having to resort to either multi-classing or buying/receiving ingredients from others. As you stated: stat boosts, HoTs, defensives (like wards, shields), dyes, etc. are all great ideas. But I think it'd be better if the class could craft all of those based solely on the skills it earns per level.

    Crazier potions, or higher tier "epic" potions could and should require more work to make, even if that means more ingredients or ingredients/skills the alchemist doesn't have.

    Some potion effects I randomly came up with:
    -Capacity boosting potions
    -Damage kickers (All attacks gain +X amount of X damage for X time)
    -Other status wards, like roots/stuns/etc.
    -"Camo" potions that keep a certain type of creature from attacking for X time, unless broken with an attack. Creature types would be Undead/Insect/Aberration/Construct/Ect.
    -Instant Heal potions?
    -Combat skill increases (Parry/Block/Dodge)

    That's what I came up with off the top of my head, I'm sure others have many more ideas!

    -Quiiliitiila

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    The one thing to keep in mind is that there should be very little overlap between potions and other consumables - scrolls and crystals. Thats the tricky part and was why I didn't list defensive boosts (armor, straight resistance), damage mods, or damage shields.

    Camo potions would be neat, but I don't think we have the tech for it. We do, however, have the tech to increase/reduce your offensive power or vulnerability to various monster types (undead, elemental, etc).
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Figured since this came up in another thread I'd go ahead and post it. The basic idea for an Alchemist Revamp would be to redo it in a manner similar to Confectioner. More potions with a wider variety of purpose, use the primary skill system, and make wider use of a larger range of resources. Using gems and ores and orbs is kind of dull. Using resources processed from monster parts, from deconstructed items, etc would be interesting.

    My original idea was to change it so that every potion required five components:
    • Container - Not just glass vials, but perhaps other types of vials (Crystal or even magical ones) or jars (clay, metal, etc)
    • Suspension - Water, Blessed Water, existing Suspensions, etc
    • Resource #1
    • Resource #2
    • Catalyst - Something to make the chemical reaction go, like essence orbs or materia or something


    As far as potion types I think a good range might include:
    • Stat Boosts
    • Trade-skill Boosts
    • HoTs
    • Dyes


    Some other crazier ideas for potions would be:
    • Temporary Abilities - Consume a potion to gain the power of something
    • Monster Visage - Alter your resistances to be more like Monster X
    • Scale - Raise or Lower your character scale


    Just some ideas. Thoughs?
    For what it's worth I *really* like a lot of these ideas.. It just feels a lot more like an alchemist should - I mean, sure, using the appropriate tools to make a potion for gathering kinda makes sense, but .. at the same time.. dissolving a pickax into a bottle does still feel kinda funky. A pickax, after all, is just shaped metal, it doesn't have some magical soul-of-mineral-gathering within it that's being dissolved! But, really, the semantics of it aside, I think Amon's original post really gives a lot more of an oomph to the idea of alchemist. I especially like the idea of using monster parts - there's a good amount of drops that are just quick to vendor, having more use for them, or alternative uses, is always a fun way to better encourage varied hunting and player interaction.

    Great ideas here, I think it'd make alch a bit more interesting for those who are into it!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    I think if every potion required 5 components, leveling the school might become extremely difficult and time consuming. Just a hint of warning. Perhaps some of the more crazier ones could use more resources. I'm hardly an alchemist though, so some thoughts from those who do regularly supply or sell potions would be helpful. Sounds like some interesting new potions could arise :)

    and +1 to Tarlins comment below:)
    Last edited by hallucin8; March 21st, 2014 at 08:42 PM.
    --- iuvenilis --- [Officer of The Alliance]
    Demonslaying since July 2004

  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    I think what would really be an improvement is if storehouses could also hold alchemist ingredients. Especially if the recipes are going to be more complicated. It's a real pain to be a serious alchemist if you can't even store a basic supply of ingredients because everything needs a different silo. As for the other ideas...it could be fun if alchy is funked up a little and I like the idea of having new potion types.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Scale - Raise or Lower your character scale
    *makes grabby paws* I love this idea. Also really enjoy the other suggestions.

    Monster Visage - would a potion that changes how a character looks be possible (edit: as in, things other than size, such as looking like a kwellen for an hour)? Also, off the top of my head, an absorb potion (on maybe a 5-10minute cooldown) be possible, sort of like the demonskin staff effect?

    potion required 5 components
    As for this, is I remember correctly, confectioner was changed to gain no exp from processing - but gain more from actually making a dish? Perhaps the same could be done with alchemist in the sense that exp gains are merely adjusted.

    Perhaps some of the more crazier ones could use more resources
    Epic potions \o/?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    I have barely scratched the surface of playing an alchemist, but I know I will have to go deeper, if I continue my plans for making my main ped a Master Crafter. So I will throw in my 2 cents...

    Firstly, I love the idea that someone else posted about using the various 'raw' natural resources to create potions. My vision of what an alchemist should be like definitely fits the '1 part mandrake root, 2 parts star anise, 1 maggot entrails, etc' sort of theme for example.

    In this vein, I also think alchemists should have the ability to obtain ANY and ALL resources they need to create potions on their own (give them a foraging skill??) - with the possible exception of resources for truly epic potions. I also agree with a previous poster that forcing the alchemist to use a finished product - to make reapers, for example - and particularly a finished product that the alchemist cannot make themselves, needs to be changed. Using metal reaping potions as an example, surely it would be enough to only require the metal in question for each tier potion (along it's other components)...i.e. only needing bronze, to make Metal Reaping I potion...mithril to make a Metal Reaping V potion. Perhaps even making the alchemist use a secondary element....for instance, bronze filings, or bronze powder for example, which would have to be crafted by the alchemist, himself.

    I do definitely agree that potions shouldn't step (much) on the toes of the products of Scholars or Confectioners, etc, but I really like the idea of expanding on what is already there, for the alchemist. Different types of vials or suspensions (with attending different requirements, to craft them) would go a long way, in my opinion, to fleshing out the Alchemist school.

    If ideas similar to these are actually implemented, I do also agree that there should also be a sort of 'alchemists storehouse' added to the game.

    I do understand a bit about the mechanics of game creation and implementation, so not sure if this is viable in the context of Istaria, or not, however one of the stereotypical core tenets of just being an alchemist, is research and experimentation. If you could implement that into the game (alchemists being able to research their own, new potion), that would kick serious arse, in my opinion. Successful alchemists could then scribe their own formulae (recipes) and sell them to other player alchemists.

    Anyhoo...will be very interested in seeing what comes, of all this :)

  9. #9

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    I like this idea a lot - for as a few have pointed out it makes it seem more authentic.

    But...

    I do have a concern though and that is with those that have completed the schools and acquired most if not all of the currently available potions. What would happen to those? Would they still be craftable or would we have to relearn all potions?
    Spirit Brothers
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaelefein View Post
    I like this idea a lot - for as a few have pointed out it makes it seem more authentic.

    But...

    I do have a concern though and that is with those that have completed the schools and acquired most if not all of the currently available potions. What would happen to those? Would they still be craftable or would we have to relearn all potions?
    My guess is that they would go the way of old confectioner formulas...still craftable but no longer lootable/vendered.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaelefein View Post
    ...those that have completed the schools and acquired most if not all of the currently available potions. What would happen to those? Would they still be craftable or would we have to relearn all potions?
    You wouldn't forget any recipies. The ingredients required might change for ones you already know.

    **********

    Some interesting ideas.

    My only concern would be, will the stacking issues be addressed? Confectioner makes chocolate covered spider which is a Strength boost between 50 and 150 (and deals a small dot of damage to player as well). Doesn't stack with Promote vitality (dragon spell which buffs strength and dex), and probably doesn't stack with Enhance strength, Boost Strength potion, or aura of the bear either.

    Above is just one example where many of the already in game items have stacking issues preventing their more widespread use. Foods, Potions, Spells, group auras or other abilitiy buffs. Each type should stack with the other types. No spell should ever overwrite a potion buff or a food buff. A spell overwriting another spell (which is how many work), or one food overwriting another food is understandable.

    As long as the above is addressed, so that some new potions don't come along only to find that 3/4 of them do not stack with existing items, then I think an Alchemist revamp will be a good idea.

    Another example: Special potion of memories. Boosts power and focus for incredibly short duration, for less than the t5 potions do (2 minutes of +50 power and +50 focus, and includes a debuff as well). doesn't even stack with Enhance Focus or a 30 minute normal focus booster potion (+75). We are supposed to take off a better, 30 minute buff to use a 2 minute potion with a lower buff amount? Or take off a better, t5 standard booster potion of 30 minute effect for a lower 2 minute buff?? Please...

    The t6 potions, Elixir of Myloc Focus for example, use t6 ingredients that are difficult to obtain, the potions effect level is same as a t5 booster potion, but only lasts 10 minutes (+75 power, +75 focus). What's the point? separate t5 power and focus pots are easier to make and last 30 minutes. Make the t6 potions have a t6 level of buff (+90 or more), and last as long or longer than standard boosters (30 minutes to 60 minutes). These not stacking with other potions is fine and makes sense. But they better not conflict with spell or food buffs.... Same can be said for Blood of the Myloc Queen. 5 minutes? should be 1 hour for such a rare drop.

    Ahala's Sweet Brew. A 45 second heal over time craftable potion. Doesn't stack with anything else heal over time (so annoying, makes it pretty much worthless).

    **********

    Idea's for craftable potions:

    Elixir of Aegis Might, Saja's Puissent Elixir, Elixir of Saris Spirit. Bringing these back and making them craftable would be nice.

    **********

    Expending any effort at all will be a waste of dev time unless all the stacking issues are first addressed..

    No food effect should EVER conflict with a potion/spell buff/ability buff-group aura/scroll.
    No potion should EVER conflict with a food buff/spell buff/ability buff-group aura/scroll.
    No spell buff should EVER conflict with a food effect/potion/ability buff-group aura/scroll.
    No ability buff or group aura should conflict with food effect/potion/spell buff/scroll. Example of one of these would be the tiny heal over time aura Field of Growth. The heal amount is small (at least for the mastered version most players try and use) but it doesn't stack with Vestea's Soothing Remedy.

    And very very short duration effects, buffs, heal over times, shouldn't have any stacking issue whatsoever, not even with other potions in the case of the Special potion of memories example. yet another new formula we just got in December with the Crystalshaper event, that's worthless.

    All these stacking problems are why about half the existing potions we already have, are basically worthless...

    Please fix all the existing issues with the existing items, before adding more mess into the mix.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post

    Expending any effort at all will be a waste of dev time unless all the stacking issues are first addressed..

    No food effect should EVER conflict with a potion/spell buff/ability buff-group aura/scroll.
    No potion should EVER conflict with a food buff/spell buff/ability buff-group aura/scroll.
    No spell buff should EVER conflict with a food effect/potion/ability buff-group aura/scroll.
    No ability buff or group aura should conflict with food effect/potion/spell buff/scroll. Example of one of these would be the tiny heal over time aura Field of Growth. The heal amount is small (at least for the mastered version most players try and use) but it doesn't stack with Vestea's Soothing Remedy.

    And very very short duration effects, buffs, heal over times, shouldn't have any stacking issue whatsoever, not even with other potions in the case of the Special potion of memories example. yet another new formula we just got in December with the Crystalshaper event, that's worthless.

    All these stacking problems are why about half the existing potions we already have, are basically worthless...

    Please fix all the existing issues with the existing items, before adding more mess into the mix.
    A very good point Guaran, I agree whole-heartedly.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    If your after idea's for new Alchemist products.

    Mimic tech kit's.
    They can be used to clone an existing attuned tech kit (and the clone becomes attuned also)
    That way we mite be able to try and use all these Tech kits we all have now cluttering up our vaults ;)

    Make them a real challenge to make if needed but we really could do with something along those lines, I think everyone would love to try different combinations of tech kits but are to afraid of wasting them on the wrong piece. So they just sit there in the vault gathering dust.

    I bet you could think of some weird and wonderful way to implement something like this ;)

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    If your after idea's for new Alchemist products.

    Mimic tech kit's.
    They can be used to clone an existing attuned tech kit (and the clone becomes attuned also)
    That way we mite be able to try and use all these Tech kits we all have now cluttering up our vaults ;)

    Make them a real challenge to make if needed but we really could do with something along those lines, I think everyone would love to try different combinations of tech kits but are to afraid of wasting them on the wrong piece. So they just sit there in the vault gathering dust.

    I bet you could think of some weird and wonderful way to implement something like this ;)
    Actually, we're going a different route with quested tech kits. We'll likely be doing something involving Daily Quests and buying tech kits from a vendor.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Alchemist

    I concur with others about needing tools to make potions. If tools were stackable, I might have a different opinion about it. However, I don't agree with a potion that increases capacity - that's what cargo gear and disks are.

    I really like the idea of a potion for trade-skill boost, and your other ideas. If this gets implemented, I will actually start doing something with alchemy than just making dyes for my gears!
    Dee
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