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Thread: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

  1. #41

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    *sigh* I had hoped to get more ideas, rather than to speak at you. I have not done the work to determine what the schools would look like, I was holding off to determine more of a higher level concept first. I'm often asked to involve the small community in more discussions about what we'll do so I had hoped this might be an opportunity to do that. More involvement than any traditional game's development where Devs speak AT players and where player ideas are heard in the reverse.

    All because they want to get rid of Gold Rage, and since it is quested for, those of us who have it would still keep it, or so they say.


    My goal is not to get rid of Gold Rage. I have every intention of it being part of any new school structure or revamp. My goal is to simply balance and provide more opportunities for Dragons.

    Just because an ability is quested for, does not mean all schools can use it. Example: See Storm Disciple quested for abilities "Way of Ice" , "Way of Fire" (I think).
    It doesn't work how you think, but yes they are only available to Storm Disciples because they have a requirement on them that says "Current School of Storm Disciple only". However, they are in the same boat as Dragon abilities in that if any future work was done to the storm Disciple school those abilities would be untouched because they were quested, not gained through a school. Its a path of gaining abilities that has backfired on us unfortunately.


    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  2. #42

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Ok, I think I am understanding a bit more what our dear Amon is looking for here, gang. I think, and if I am wrong please correct me... From what I have been reading is they are wanting ideas of things to add into the current content. The Quested abilities are difficult to change. Like here is a example, Dragons reach is a quested ability, where as if we want to differentiate the difference between, like say, the Soldiers, and the Adepts, which is how the player themselves wish to play their char, if it be all out tank, or a healer/mainly magic user...Here is a suggestion, how about Boons...Tanks use more Strength, Dex, and Tooth and Claw, where as one who wishes to be a magic user, they will use more Primal and Focus....there may be another, though it is kinda slipping my mind this early ;) So this idea can be added within the current quest chain or through another NPC....Ok, the Boons I speak of, if one wants to be a Tank then they can take the quest line that offers a boon for Strength, Dex...and what not, they can be a repeatable at certain lvls, like the current quested abilities, and can very well be a passive ability that will add to above said stats. Same goes for the Adept side, those who wish to be Magic users, get a boon/boons to add to their Power, Focus and Primal, each lvl of said boon would give a bit more to the stat...Just a idea

  3. #43

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Had a talk with the tech team and here's a potential option. We could provide a way for existing Dragons to choose (as an option, not a requirement) to "convert" their existing characters to the new system. This process would simply remove whatever quested abilities we removed as part of the change and set your school to the first tier of the new system at equal level. So, if you were level 100 Dragon Adventurer you would become a level 100 Juvenile. Note, that is the proposed school name, not the race. So you'd still be an Ancient Dragon as far as race. This would let you keep your character, equipment, etc while converting to use the new school system.

    Regarding specific abilities, I will work on some rough ideas to post here. Not sure how soon, but I'll begin working on it. As I said before, however, I welcome suggestions and in fact encourage your participation as we're a small enough community that I feel we all should have input into this important process.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #44

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Is it me or has everyone forgotten that we have a blight test server that we can test to see what we like and what we don't like?? As a past programmer I like experimenting and experimenting can lead to see interesting revelations on what works and what does not.

    For new school suggestions. I think it would depend on how many schools you are wishing/willing to make. Technically you have 2 as is currently. Helian and Lunus. Magic and Melee (in regards to buffs/abilities gained) which face, it are part of what differentiates most bipedal school anyway.

    I like Amon's idea. To me it is reminiscent of school forget quest for bipeds. It works. Depending on how many schools I have a few ideas.

    Ex 1 - 3 schools. Melee, Balanced, and Magic. Bipedal equivalents would probably be Bezerker, Reaver, and Spiritist. Each could be specialized. I use Bezerker as a reference because there are currently not many options to compare a dragon to without suggesting another idea. Warrior is to general to use and dragons clearly don't have as many weapon skills to choose from. Same applies to Spiritist.

    Ex 2 - 5 Schools. Caster(Primalist), Healer, Tank, Breather, DPS. Equivalent ideas would probably be Mage, Healer, Bloodmage/Warrior/Cleric (because a tank doesn't have to be melee in this game), KNOC/CHSW/BTMG would be close to the idea of a Breather imo, and a Bezerker/Sorc.

    Ex 3 - is probably my favorite idea because well I just don't know heh. Read on!!! Caster - Healer - Melee - Balanced(Jack of All, master of none) Each is specialized highly and masterable abilities exist in each that carry over only to supplement minorly the other classes. Perfect example is the Mystic schools for peds. Guardian/druid/spiritist/bloodmage/reaver/shaman/healer/cleric/storm D.

    I know that we need to keep these different from biped schools in terms of how they do it but it doesn't necessarily mean we can't mimic what they do to some extent. I'd love to see khutit form used as a requirement or boon for a class O.O :D

    BUT WE HAS BLIGHT SERVERS TO TEST SO LETS MAKE BABY IDEAS!!!

  5. #45

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    *sigh* I had hoped to get more ideas, rather than to speak at you. I have not done the work to determine what the schools would look like, I was holding off to determine more of a higher level concept first. I'm often asked to involve the small community in more discussions about what we'll do so I had hoped this might be an opportunity to do that. More involvement than any traditional game's development where Devs speak AT players and where player ideas are heard in the reverse.
    Its wonderful that you are asking for things in a broad scope and including the player base, and please don't see it as you talking at us. I think of this more where we are letting you know that you have caught our ear, and we're willing to listen, consider, and want to offer input, but to make a good contribution of ideas we want to hear more so that we know where to focus our ideas a little.

    For me, I'm a player of this game. I do some minor graphical modding occasionally, but I am well aware that this does not give me insight into the limitations of the technology involved in this game, the issues and limitations of the coding, or the amount of work involved in efforts like new content and classes, amongst other things. What we as players often desire is not always the direction of that which is possible. Because of that lack of knowledge, this is why I need a few guide rails and a little fleshing out of ideas and proposals sometimes or questions answered. Rather than me present idea after idea that isn't possible and frustrate myself in the process, (because frustrated people do not contribute well) I like to focus my ideas with the knowledge of where the devs want the direction of a proposal to go, with what my fellow players have desired, and with what I desire too. From there, I can think of an idea that might work and is presentable with all three of those factors in mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Had a talk with the tech team and here's a potential option. We could provide a way for existing Dragons to choose (as an option, not a requirement) to "convert" their existing characters to the new system. This process would simply remove whatever quested abilities we removed as part of the change and set your school to the first tier of the new system at equal level. So, if you were level 100 Dragon Adventurer you would become a level 100 Juvenile. Note, that is the proposed school name, not the race. So you'd still be an Ancient Dragon as far as race. This would let you keep your character, equipment, etc while converting to use the new school system.

    That could possibly work.

    Would it be just quested abilities related to the DRAG school or would it have to include other quested for abilities like the old Wishgiver quests, abilities from festivals such as Riddle Solver and Emblem quested, and other obsolete quested for abilities?

    Is there only going to be a window open to transfer old dragons to the new system or will we be allowed to do that at any time after the new system would be introduced? I'm thinking of veteran returning players with dragons who would return to a new system.

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Regarding specific abilities, I will work on some rough ideas to post here. Not sure how soon, but I'll begin working on it. As I said before, however, I welcome suggestions and in fact encourage your participation as we're a small enough community that I feel we all should have input into this important process
    Thank you!


    You see an Ice Wall Corner, I see a Tardis.
    "

    "Pen Pineapple Apple Pen"


  6. #46

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Cooolios View Post
    Is it me or has everyone forgotten that we have a blight test server that we can test to see what we like and what we don't like?? As a past programmer I like experimenting and experimenting can lead to see interesting revelations on what works and what does not.
    Nope I don't think we have forgotten this but the problem is by the time an idea is ready for blight Amon and the other devs will have already dedicated many, many hours into a project. I think the whole point of this is for the devs to get an Idea of what we want so they know where to focus their attention. and not waste too many hours on something we hate.

    But ok heres my ideas for what schools.. the idea I have for names I am purposely staying away from Lunus and Helian.

    Firstly we have the three melee classes.
    Drulkars Warriors... Warrior/dps... Focusing mainly on melee DPS less on defense .
    Drulkars Guardians... Tanks... we know what tanks are but I was wondering weather or not it was possible to have abilities that FORCE monsters to attack them for a limited time.
    Drulkars Chosen... essentially monk melee dragons.

    then we have the spell casters...

    Guardians of the Sleeper... Mage DPS.
    Child of the Sleeper... Crowd control mages.
    Followers of the sleeper... Healers.

    And finally we have the hybrid class.. although for this it could be the normal DRAG school.

    Now none of these ideas are exactly new and the names are just off the bat but I do think its important that we don't make it sound like "Helians are mages" and "lunus are warriors" people seem to rail against this idea alot thus why I chose Drulkar and the sleeper.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  7. #47

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I fear I do not understand what is going on here.

    Dragon schools like Cooolios suggested?
    Winged bipeds?
    Dragon healers, sorcerers mages aso??

    Considering we already have too few bipeds.- and too few who want to take the hard way up to master all schools--
    do you think that will motivate folks to play a biped?
    Or do we want a dragon world? Bipeds crafter only?

    I still do not get the intention behind all that.
    Keeping dragon players busy for a longer time??

    We all agree on the fact that Helian/magic user need MORE love.
    But besides that-
    Dragons are already tanks- are already multi tasking if they play hybride, they can heal themselfs and groiup members well enough.
    They use areas and bolts...they are strong enough for the challenges of the game.
    If they are well trained and balanced. If they have different scale sets and some other features.
    So-WHY??

    Amon- you wanted suggestions- and complain you did not get-
    Steelclaw and Racktor made good suggestions too you did not comment.
    What to you think about their ideas?
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #48

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    Had a talk with the tech team and here's a potential option. We could provide a way for existing Dragons to choose (as an option, not a requirement) to "convert" their existing characters to the new system. This process would simply remove whatever quested abilities we removed as part of the change and set your school to the first tier of the new system at equal level. So, if you were level 100 Dragon Adventurer you would become a level 100 Juvenile. Note, that is the proposed school name, not the race. So you'd still be an Ancient Dragon as far as race. This would let you keep your character, equipment, etc while converting to use the new school system.
    Neither Lov nor Luna or Flame want to suffer from amnesia.
    We have a saying here: We have the choice between plague and cholera^^
    Last edited by LOVWYRM; August 1st, 2014 at 07:12 AM.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  9. #49

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    Neither Lov nor Luna or Flame want to suffer from amnesia.
    We have a saying here: We have the choice between plague and cholera^^
    Luna, whilst i am not fond of the idea of losing my old abilities I understand if we want anything added to dragons we need to be prepared to lose a little of what we already have. Personally i would prefer to see the abilities weakened but still usable even if its only for nostalgia. perhaps once the new classes go in rename the current Gold rage as "Rage of the elder" and allow it only to be used every 5 mins. This way it wouldn't be so uber but yes its still there.

    (without making this sound like its biped vs Dragon) DRAG as it stands is already far stronger than any single class and its more flexible than any single class.. If we want to be able to expand into multiple classes it needs to lose just a little because whilst the DRAG game isn't the same as a biped game we do hunt together and no one wants bipeds to be utterly overwhelmed. (even if the idea of dragons utterly overwhelming bipeds does sound fun)

    What I am trying to say is the Devs need to ensure there is balance.. just remember whenever we multiclass we lose some of what we had... I like to think of it as "Taking one step back to take two steps forward" that is afterall how multiclassing works.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    Winged bipeds?

    I still do not get the intention behind all that.
    Keeping dragon players busy for a longer time??
    Not sure where the winged bipeds came from not seen that mentioned anywhere in this thread.

    But as for keeping dragons busy in this game for longer.. HELL Yes thats enough of a reason for me to want it.. Aurakvoar doesn't come out except for the odd hunt because I don't really have anything I really want to do left with him.
    Last edited by Calyndrell; August 1st, 2014 at 12:57 PM.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  10. #50

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    We all agree on the fact that Helian/magic user need MORE love.
    But besides that-
    Dragons are already tanks- are already multi tasking if they play hybride, they can heal themselfs and groiup members well enough.
    They use areas and bolts...they are strong enough for the challenges of the game.
    If they are well trained and balanced. If they have different scale sets and some other features.
    So-WHY??


    They can do these things, yes, but not well and certainly not as focused as bipeds in specific schools. There have been lots and lots of requests, complaints, and suggestions over the years asking for more focus on healing, or spellcasting, or crowd control from players of Dragon characters. If they were all these things already, then those players wouldn't be asking for them.

    Amon- you wanted suggestions- and complain you did not get-
    Steelclaw and Racktor made good suggestions too you did not comment.
    What to you think about their ideas?


    I don't really like Steelclaw's to be honest. Skill Trees are great and they could certainly be a way to extend gameplay, but we don't have the necessary tech on the server, database, or client to support that feature. Plus, how would it work with the existing systems and schools. With quested abilities. There are a LOT of questions that would need to be answered before even beginning implementation.

    Beyond that you have concerns about speed of implementation. If a LOT of huge features were required for client, database and server you would have to extend that time out even further.

    I don't see much from Racktor other than agreeing with Guaran and saying "add to what we have already". Which you can find thirty threads on without much difficulty over the last six or eight years that clearly describe why we don't feel that can be done without heavily altering existing Dragons and the school (as well as quested abilities).

    So far it seems like there are four viable possibilities. 1) New schools for new characters, leaving older characters untouched. 2) New schools for new characters, but providing a mechanism for older characters to transfer to the new system. 3) Change existing school and characters to fit the new system. 4) Do nothing, leave the system as is with no changes.

    The fifth possibility, add on top of existing Dragons without altering anything about the current system or content, is in my opinion completely unworkable.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  11. #51

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post


    So far it seems like there are four viable possibilities. 1) New schools for new characters, leaving older characters untouched. 2) New schools for new characters, but providing a mechanism for older characters to transfer to the new system. 3) Change existing school and characters to fit the new system. 4) Do nothing, leave the system as is with no changes.

    The fifth possibility, add on top of existing Dragons without altering anything about the current system or content, is in my opinion completely unworkable.
    My response to these 5 trains of thought are

    1) No. Doing this just alienates the old chars.

    2) This is my preference. give the player the choice on whether or not to swap

    3) Bad idea you will serious endanger upsetting your veteran (stable) player base forcing change of such a huge magnitude. I beleive the game would not survive the exodus.

    4) Better than 3.. but i think the game needs an injection of something new

    5) I know your saying no amon but this is actually better than forcing change.

    Also other than saying no your not responding suggestions. or even giving us direction where to focus OUR energies and train of thoughts.. People have asked questions and no response leaving us to wonder weather or not to bother.
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  12. #52

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    I don't really like Steelclaw's to be honest. Skill Trees are great and they could certainly be a way to extend gameplay, but we don't have the necessary tech on the server, database, or client to support that feature.
    Would you be willing to entertain this idea if I laid out the implementation? I think I have a pretty good idea of what new tech is required, and it's not as involved as what we went through to add pets. I still feel it's worth digging in to, since it offers two important features that the other possibilities you list do not: incremental implementation and completely reversible.
    You can get anything you want in life -- just make a lot of noise and bite the right people.

  13. #53

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post
    The fifth possibility, add on top of existing Dragons without altering anything about the current system or content, is in my opinion completely unworkable.
    If a way can be found to go this route, I am excited to see what new things you guys come up with.

    I think it should be possible, with existing game tech as well.

    One very very simple way, shared timer. Make a big primal/power boost ability, a sequel to Primal Roar I suggested earlier that has a big base primal requirement, say 1500, so the player has already had to move a big portion of tp's to primal (this may not even be needed if it shares timer). Anyway, the ability is the caster boon, which puts an effect on that lasts 2 hours, has a 2 hour recycle, and has a shared timer with gold rage. That means, gold rage would be unusable for 2 hours once this ability is used. No need to worry about removing gold rage, quested abilities, etc. Absolutely no new tech required.

    Side effect: players can try it but it isn't permanent. This is a huge huge plus for me. Or if you use new classes, being able to switch classes, so that this is not some permanent choice, is a huge huge plus for me. Make all the abilities non masterable that you don't want to be used across classes. So in that sense it isn't even "multiclassing" since that usually grants mastered bonuses or abilities usable in other schools.

    Worrying about the quested for abilities, I don't think this all that big of a deal really, since many of the existing quested abilities can be given to all the new schools without any imbalancing issues ( dragon's reach, hardened scales, primal mastery, most of these should just be kept as is, and aren't really big bonuses anyway. Hardened scales +100 armor to an ancient it's less than 5% armor boost. Primal Mastery is +100 primal, that's 10%). Only those you wanted to be changed in the other schools would need worked on. Make DRAG required to use those quested abilites you want to restrict between classes. But like I said, some of those could be disabled if they linked timers with the spell equivalent. If Prime Burst was put in for casters, just link it to gold rage's timer (example).

    As far as balancing gold rage, that's easily done by increasing its hoard cost to use. When gold rage was first put in, for the first year or more I never used it, because it was too expensive and hoard was hard to come by. And shield of gold was so high I never even considered it, and even now rarely remember to use it. You've already taken a step in this direction by making hoard pawnable to Rhahool. Bipeds that used to give it away pawn it now, and even some newer dragons may choose to pawn if they need coin. Set it to cost 1200 (about double the cost now), and with the new relative scarcity of hoard, it will balance itself.
    Last edited by Guaran; August 2nd, 2014 at 01:56 AM.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Thank you Guaran, Steelclaw, Calyndrell.
    ( my heroes:-)- my heartbeat is slower now^^)
    I could live with Cal`s 5) ^^
    or Steelclaw`s or Guaran`s model.

    As its not a dragon vs. biped thread
    its neither a players vs Amon thread.
    So thanks to you, Amon, too for your hard work-day after day.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  15. #55

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by AmonGwareth View Post

    So far it seems like there are four viable possibilities. 1) New schools for new characters, leaving older characters untouched. 2) New schools for new characters, but providing a mechanism for older characters to transfer to the new system. 3) Change existing school and characters to fit the new system. 4) Do nothing, leave the system as is with no changes.

    The fifth possibility, add on top of existing Dragons without altering anything about the current system or content, is in my opinion completely unworkable.
    Option 2 or 3 seems the best route

    Option 5 probably not a good idea in the long run
    Chasing
    Chaos Shard
    Scarlet Dawn


  16. #56

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    If a way can be found to go this route, I am excited to see what new things you guys come up with.


    I'm not going to attempt to find a way to work this route. See my previous posts, I don't feel it is a workable route. Previous discussions have led me to this conclusion. If you have real suggestions that would make this workable, I'm all ears.

    But until then, I'm going to proceed under the assumption that the workable solution is one of these: "
    2) New schools for new characters, but providing a mechanism for older characters to transfer to the new system. 3) Change existing school and characters to fit the new system."
    Last edited by AmonGwareth; August 2nd, 2014 at 11:06 AM.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  17. #57

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    I think I can support Steelclaw's offer. If he can show some way to implement it, then the idea could possibly give us Cal's number 5 option? Its the words completely reversible that more than catch my ear. Players should have a choice.

    I do not particularly want a permanent choice. It is an option that I reluctantly would agree if the only other option means having my dragon become obsolete, which I have to infer by a lack of answers to my questions that this would be the case as it would no longer receive new updates and content.

    If something is done, it should allow the player to have a choice to go back, if either we don't like it or it has some large bug or error occur. That way we aren't left for months without being able to play our dragons. This game just won't survive that.


    You see an Ice Wall Corner, I see a Tardis.
    "

    "Pen Pineapple Apple Pen"


  18. #58

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Amon if I'm being completely honest what I see here is a desire by the developers to eliminate schools that are heavily reliant upon quests to provide abilities, instead to be replaced with schools where all the abilities are self-contained within each school. This is understandable from the perspective of wanting to simplify the management of the dragon school for the developers.

    What I think is being overlooked is the number one reason people tell me they enjoy playing dragons - the quested content. So while your proposals may make the developers' lives easier in one regard those same proposals will potentially lead to dragons losing one of the qualities that people really enjoy. What other race in Istaria has new lore and content every 10 levels? Ok sure some of the quests are nothing more than "kill 50 eejits" but even those ones have story behind them.

    Can you clarify what will happen to all the ability quests that are currently available for dragons please? Will these be retired, never to be available again, will they remain but only be available to existing dragon players, or will they continue to remain a cornerstone of the dragon race?

    Again I must say this - your comments in this topic Amon give the impression of someone who has a particular route in mind and anyone who suggests an alternative isn't getting a look-in, even when the alternative route offers simpler implementation. All because the developers want to simplify their working lives it might seem. Obviously I can't know that for sure, but all signs point to a desire by the developers to get rid of that 'pesky' quested content!

  19. #59

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzael View Post
    Again I must say this - your comments in this topic Amon give the impression of someone who has a particular route in mind and anyone who suggests an alternative isn't getting a look-in, even when the alternative route offers simpler implementation. All because the developers want to simplify their working lives it might seem. Obviously I can't know that for sure, but all signs point to a desire by the developers to get rid of that 'pesky' quested content!
    Thank you Tzael
    - with all given respect Amon-
    and besides what I wrote in my last post:
    With each new post of yours this becomes more obviers.
    And pls see- your way is not what players really want.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  20. #60

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by LOVWYRM View Post
    Thank you Tzael
    - with all given respect Amon-
    and besides what I wrote in my last post:
    With each new post of yours this becomes more obviers.
    And pls see- your way is not what players really want.
    You are correct, I do not want to add to the existing school. However, I posted here in an effort to try and find a compromise. Is that wrong? Your responses seem to indicate it is. Which is sad.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

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