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Thread: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

  1. #1

    Default Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Use this thread to discuss new dragon schools (replacing the existing one).
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  2. #2

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Since this is the one I proposed already, I have nothing more to add here. I think it would take time to get a good balance, but new schools and progression might actually bring back players over the addition of a few more levels. As someone asked, existing quests would need to be altered to keep lore (though many of the ability quests are quite thin on lore, if at all). As with the rites too. But more could be done since there would be full level 100 schools to fill with new abilities.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  3. #3

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    One additional thought related to existing Dragon quests. This choice would not invalidate them. In fact, you could still do the quests for the abilities. The abilities would just be unusable until you completed the quest, but would show up in your ability list from the school.

    The other thing is that we can patch new schools to Blight and let players test it out like we have done with neo-Monk.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  4. #4

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I believe this route would be best also noting that many players have 2 different dragons for helian/lunus buffs. These 2 classifications could be broken down further to tank/dps and healer/caster. To me it makes the most sense because lets face it, the crystal, the passives, and the active abilities quested for already make this distinction between the two factions. I mean lunus get what?? 250-400 Tooth and claw, extra strength and the same goes for helian with primal and power. It just makes sense to follow what we have set no??? Criticism please!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    So, here's some rough ideas for the first three schools.

    JJuvenile Dragon School

    • MagicEvasion/Evasion? 8
    • Tooth&Claw/Primal? 9
    • DragonBreath? 10
    • Health 25
    • Strength/Power/Focus/Dexterity? 8
    • Armor 7
    • EthArmor? 7
    • Abilities:
      • Breath of Fire
      • Power Strike (Bite)
      • Crit Strike (Silver Strike)
      • Multistrike (Ravage)
      • Stun (Tail STrike)
      • Mez (Howl)
      • Root NEW
      • Ranged Bolt (Galewind)
      • Ranged DoT (Reach)
      • Self HoT (Breeze)
      • Self Buffs (Roar, Determination)
      • Intercept Attack (Men. Presence)
      • Lower incoming attack (Negate) (Snarl)
      • Gold Rage (high level)
      • Rez (high level) NEW (Primal Resurrect ?)
      • Gift (Self, All Stats)

    SSoldier (Warrior)

    • MagicEvasion/Evasion? 7/9
    • Tooth&Claw/Primal? 10/8
    • DragonBreath? 10
    • Health 25
    • Strength/Power/Focus/Dexterity? 9/7/7/9
    • Armor 9
    • EthArmor? 5
    • Abilities:
      • Breath of Flame Burst
      • Melee Strike (Drain Strike)
      • AoE Tail Strike NEW (Tail Sweep)
      • Damage Shield (vs Melee) (Spiked)
      • Gold Rage (Hoard)
      • Enrage (More Strength) (Hoard) NEW
      • Bolster Friend (Boost Attack Speed) (Hoard) NEW (Roar of ?)
      • Root/Bleed? (Hoard) NEW (Tail Strike ?)
      • AoE Stun NEW (Stomp/Earthquake?)
      • AoE Group Gift (Strength) NEW (Gift of ?)
      • Breath of Acid (Hoard)


    AAdept (Caster)

    • MagicEvasion/Evasion? 9/7
    • Tooth&Claw/Primal? 8/10
    • DragonBreath? 10
    • Health 25
    • Strength/Power/Focus/Dexterity? 7/9/9/7
    • Armor 5
    • EthArmor? 9
    • Abilities:
      • Breath of Lightning
      • Bomb NEW (Primal Bomb?)
      • Spell Strike (Drain Bolt)
      • Damage Shield (vs Magic) NEW
      • Gold Burst (Hoard) NEW
      • Enhance Will (More Power) (Hoard) NEW (Hardened Will)
      • Heal (Others) (Hoard) (Instant Heal)
      • Rez (Hoard) (Superior)
      • AoE Mez (Hoard) NEW (Ferocious Stare ?)
      • AoE Group Gift (Power) (Hoard) NEW (Gift of ?)
      • Breath of Poison Gas (Hoard) NEW
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  6. #6

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I like this:) It feels like different classes now!!!

    Now are these going to follow the Lunus/Helian routes? Or will both classes be able to choose either Lunus or Helian?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    It seems to me this new thing is to make dragons more like the way most dragons wanted them tyo be in the first place, which is good I suppose.
    As I also understand it, the problem is how to implement this with already existing dragons, and I have seen one of the options here is to basically have everyone create new ones, which is something of an issue.
    If it would come to that, could there not some way of 'resetting' characters, give them all the XP points, skill points, etc, so they could just redistribute them?
    Last edited by Amerelium; August 12th, 2014 at 01:56 PM. Reason: formatting

  8. #8

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I was around when Istaria was Horizons and I was in the beta testing, I remember there being different dragon classes there, like dragon healer, dragon mage. I loved how it was going that route at the time, but understood it might not have been properly balanced or ready for it, so I am very much in support of having new schools to specialize our characters some more, it would add not only to the combat, but also add to the roleplay aspect in different ways for those on the RP server, seeing lots of benefits here with it.

    The implementation of it I do agree should be handled carefully, as a majority would likely mind going back to square one to try out new content. So there should be a way for max level dragons to reclass into the new content when new content comes out. Give existing players a free reclass initially, if they don't like it, maybe set up a 5 dollar pay to reclass again thing, would help The company a bit because I know personally if I change my mind on my dragon's class i would pay that to change it later.

    Anyways just my suggestions/ideas to add to the current discussion.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    5 dollar pay to reclass again thing
    I personally prefer the current 'respec' way. Well...not much to actually respec beyond training points, but still. We already pay to have a dragon, for more character slots, for a plot. I don't think we should have to pay for a respec as well.

    @Amon's suggestions.

    *ahem* Disregarding my squeeing over the presence of gold burst in there...Looks good, except for Warrior getting Breath of Flame Burst and not the Casters. Insofar as I know, breaths in general are primarily caster territory.

    In the interest of balance between the two, it'd make more sense (to me at least) to give the flat out strong damaging breaths to caster, and more utility to melee. They would both have the same breaths, but they could just do different things? Casters bofb could be as it is now, while melee would be quite a bit more damage than the current normal breath of fire does now (maybe double it to do 400-500 damage), but it would also...say, increase the damage of their next melee attack against that one target by some such percent, or any attack against that target now has a 5% chance to proc some effect.

    Not saying that melee shouldn't end up with a decent aoe, but hnnnng my casters would really miss Breath of Flame Burst.

    Damage Shield (vs Magic) NEW
    Some questions about this - does vs magic mean it would effect any magic damage, even a..say, melee/physical attack that had the Fire Attack V Buff? If not, I think it should at least be somewhat effective against melee/physical attacks. Even though a caster will have better Ethereal armor, I've found ethereal damage isn't really present enough in the game for that to be useful. Maybe against some blighted mobs and Valkor, but I can go months without going near a mob that deals ethereal damage.

    Damage Shield (vs Melee) (Spiked)
    Same thing here, should be somewhat effective against spells I think. Also, the "(Spiked)" part - does this mean casters will lose spiked scales?

    Could also add a different effect to each of them. Hitting the melee's damage shield in melee range could deal spiked scales damage, but one wouldn't take spiked scales damage from hitting them at a range. Hitting the caster's damage shield with a spell could result in a reflect, but no reflect if hitting them with melee damage.

    Enrage (More Strength) (Hoard) NEW
    Enhance Will (More Power) (Hoard) NEW (Hardened Will)
    As for these - going off the current Allowance of Power buff that was recently implemented, I would rarely use such abilities if they just gave raw stats. My caster - at 2100ish power, 200 extra power does very little for her, and would probably be the same situation for my strength dragon if they had an ability like that. Why not give it an effect instead. Would it be possible to give a +dps based on how much of a stat the character has? Say, +1dps to melee skills per 500 strength(or tooth and claw?) for melee, per power(or primal) for casters and their spells. This would encourage casters to get caster stats, and melees to get melee stats, while still being somewhat useful for the hybrid.
    Last edited by Alisto; August 27th, 2014 at 06:47 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Amon I have some ideas for this but i missed the main thread and its now locked this has renewed my hope for Istaria and would like to make suggestions would you like them hear or in a pm ?
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by lightning claw View Post
    Amon I have some ideas for this but i missed the main thread and its now locked this has renewed my hope for Istaria and would like to make suggestions would you like them hear or in a pm ?
    There's a thread here for each of the options. Please post them for everyone to see.
    "Alea iacta est" -- Julius Caesar

    Toot shouted, voice shrill, "In the name of the Pizza Lord! Charge!" (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files)

    "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will spends it whole life believing that it is stupid." -- Albert Einstein

  12. #12

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    As some of you all know I love dragons and studied there lore. My ideas closely match Amons with a few key differences.

    First I'm not too much of a fan of the taking a Hachie all the way to 100 then having to do it again for an adult and again for an ancient . While this greatly prolongs the life of dragon players It might drive off some new blood to the game something from my short time back monitoring the forms is desperately needed.

    I'm reminded of an old Japaneses saying

    "if qualities of heaven are your desire
    acquire wisdom and knowledge to take your mind higher
    if earthy qualities are what you lack
    then train your body and prepare to attack
    when heaven and earth are open together
    the path of peril path will be righteous forever"

    I have always seen the dragons in Istaria in 2 ways that follow both Istarian lore and dragon lore altogether

    Lunus = Earthly quality's strength Epion's fighting style is that of earth brutal fierce and lacking elegance but it gets the job done . I made him to be a "Master tank" with a side of one hell of damage dealing . My spell book is limited. The only reason I put any training points in primal is for Primal boon for the elusive Reclar hunt

    Heilan = Heavenly quality s or Mind/Primal/Arcane.
    This side of dragons was never really thought throw all the way and while a great deal of dragons i know would love to use magic to fight are forced to using the powerful multi strike attacks .

    Hears my Idea

    Bring back Lost Knowledge , In order to obtain players must start new chars. I love that idea! For once that will put the flame war to bed "The only reason why your so bad a-- is because you have epic weapons that no one can get anymore "

    Upon completing your rights of passage Lunus 50/40 or heilian at 60/50 several "quest " shale be available from your faction leader. To Prove your worth . Of learning to be one with the elements .

    This will ultimately finally balance the power of gold rage at Gold Rage cap at 3

    Lunus multi class Concepts

    Earth dragon ( this will allow the player to continue down gold rage and silver strike to be Damage dealers . Earth dragons will also be able to use limited nature ability's such as damage shields and enhanced Malay Attacks ( Please note gold rage will be caped at gold rage 3 to continue gold rage line you must become a Lunus damage dealer.

    Wind ( this is a big part in dragon lore but im not too sure how to fit this class in yet it should be sub Prestige school for storm dragons )

    Storm Dragon ( In dragon loar this is also known as a regal or King class of the dragons ) often summoning massive thunder storms and dealing massive area damage they tend to never be in the thick of things for too long and prefer mid range to long range combat elements used are water and energy

    Fire class don't really need to go in to the back story you basically set fire to every thing. Special ability's are entombing our body with your breath similar to spiked scales very proficient at flame with some good pulling flame spells and new Malay attacks Like Inferno flaming charge flame wing burning wind ect with 2 or three self heals solid close range combat and

    Helian concepts
    Spirit class ( healer and Ethereal damage dealers ) wide range of spells and heals

    Water class (sub prestige class ) specializes in mid range combat with water/ ice ability's such as Tidal Force Spell (aro multi hit ) the lower the level of this spell the more damage it dose to you gives resistances and stuns foes with most of there attacks

    Ice ( ancient prestige school) to be an ice dragon you need to be devote to the teachings of Heilina obtaining 100 in adult school competing quests for her along the way and also joining the water class and taking that to 100 as well Ice dragons have found how to freeze there talons and focuses there hoard to bring icy death to there foes All ice magic can be used 5 or 6 new spells for Icd (Ice dragon class) as well as 5 attacks and one HOT ( Heal over time ) close range combat types can be made to be mid range

    Forest class : similar to dru line in using spells like DC and regrowth ect this dragons are close range combat that ensnare there enemies with trees and plants and poison them till death

    Basically im giving more depth too the factions making them have some type of meaning and defined roles in the game

    Im agreeing with you that dragons should not be like bipeds . Thus I have thought of 8 schools 4 per faction . hears the kicker 2 of the schools are (Dead ends ) Powerful in there own rights but will stop at 100 1 Sub school which leads to Prestige school. Having players think about the end game and what they want to be other then I want to fly as a dragon race throw there rights and quit .

    also special dragon scale sets will be made for each class see the arop head scale maker they will be called "Scales of the first "


    My I have other ideas and Im in game programing so I know what a pain this might turn in too but you opened up the can and with dragon crystal shape school working you demonstrated adding schools are with in Istarias Current Capability

    Ps Amon if you take this type of idea into consideration I want you to be nothing more then Absolute Evil in making dragons change schools quest that require groups and team work and crafting Oh my.
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  13. #13

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I love it all but... not this bit... seriously you go ahead with that and your alienating your loyal veteran dragon player.. yes some will like it but i think the vast majority won't.

    Quote Originally Posted by lightning claw View Post
    Bring back Lost Knowledge , In order to obtain players must start new chars. I love that idea! For once that will put the flame war to bed "The only reason why your so bad a-- is because you have epic weapons that no one can get anymore "
    Gwain Drago - Mystic Paladin
    Arzel - Knight of creation/Battlemage
    Aurakvoar - Ancient Lunus

  14. #14

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Calyndrell ,

    While I understand your point and half hardheartedly agree with you that our beloved elder dragons will not get the chance to partake in the new content . From a design perspective you need too also understand the vast complexity of doing this with istaria's current resources available . From my programing experience Revamping the Dragon schools to any thing like what i have above is going to cause all kinds of grief for Lady V and Amon * hands them dragon sized bottle of aspirin for there migraines * . And while I a squalling at the thought of Dragons getting Prestige schools on there own right I can see both sides to this perspective .

    Also bear in mind that we will still have access to our dragons , Just not the content , wonders how that's going to work possibly a very long else if statement Or New class altogether.

    One thing is for certain , Its going to be a massive undertaking one thats Long over due and i will be happy to wait for the blights movements to resume if this dose happen , But Amon, Rick , Lady V Your making one fatal flaw . Alot of us Old farts have either retired our battle armor and weapons and either picked up a pick or left all together cause the main point of Istaria is an epic war between the living and the blight. New dragon schools are ZOMG nice ! But Horizons made its bread and butter off the devs sending in the skeleton hoard and attacking towns . You NEED to soon Reintroduce blight movement so new blood dose not get board and Old blood returns in massive numbers

    Give us death points or give us death !
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I understand the reasonings made by a programmer. As programmer myself since before 1990 I agree on some of that... but I am happy programmers don't decide games. Because the programmer head thinks one (logic) way but that's not the players way.
    A player is an individual who might have invested a decade into his dragon. Others (my case) have made their ONE dragon they played in every game before and after Istaria, that dragon is their true avatar. Some have made websites around their dragon (including myself, in little part), others have written or started books (me included) about their dragon.

    Can't just tell them "you know what, create a new hatchie and be happy", because you'll get a fierce response.

    Programmers are made to solve problems, including integrating existing legacy systems, exactly because some parts of the equation are inelastic to changes. I believe this is one of those cases.
    Vahrokh Vain - Ancient dragon level 100 adv 100 craft 34M of untainted, fireworks and other crap free hoard.
    Isarion - Reaver Healer Spiritist, many craft classes.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I have to agree with Calyndrell and Vahrokh here. You can not tell older players to just start a new character and be happy with that. This game is dependent on veteran players as we do not have the luxury of new players sticking around at this time to make up for any backlash by telling older players they'll have to make all new characters that they've been attached to for years (or in some cases its their avatar or fursona.)

    While I do agree that old items and abilities should be brought back, I strongly disagree with being forced to start a new character to do so. The reasons are not just about new players being given the option to acquire them, but older players who were around during that time and had no chance of getting the items or abilities because they couldn't partake of the events/quests those items were in (too small a guild, not end-game, could not get a group, etc.)

    I'll probably get a feedback post together later on the schools themselves when I've a little more time to sit down and read and think on what is presented, now that my health is a little bit better so that I'm more up to it.


    You see an Ice Wall Corner, I see a Tardis.
    "

    "Pen Pineapple Apple Pen"


  17. #17

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I Understand what you both said , I agree with you that the Vet community is whats keeping this game alive , and Valk My nix name in my family went from an abbreviation from my real Name to EPI or EPS . Also Ive spent the better part of 10 years ( about 6 months after beta ended Kessendrian found me on-top of Kion volcano and introduced me to Valtur and the Ancients. With both of your post I fully back , and If Istaria where on Havoc or Big world , I would be right along side you but its not Its on Genius , some things cant be done with legacy stuff . Short of knowing the game code i can not comment any further.

    Amon Please excuse the assumption

    I feel also one of the reasons why Rick and team want to do it this way is follow the Natural order of things. The next generation of dragons is about to be born in Istaria Us old farts are given a task to teach the new generation of emerging dragons after all every few hundred millennia evolution dose leap forward.

    *Elbows Amon * The only thing that dose not progress is the blight war *
    Face forward and you should be able to hear it now the only thing plugging your ears is your own fear. There is only one enemy and one of you so what is there to be afraid of ? Abandon your fear turn and face him, Don't give an inch. Now advance Never stop If you retreat you will age Be afraid and you'll die NOW SHOUT OUT YOUR NAME !!!

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I get the feeling that this is gonna be a hard sell to the 'old Ancients'.

    Perhaps if it's possible you could make another Rift, one only accessible by an 'old' Ancient but once they go thru it's a one way trip?
    Hmm....you could have The Sleeper awaken and take those he finds worthy (old ancients) to a place of "eternal knowledge and rest, free from the Naka and their petty ways".
    Could have a small town area where they can sit and chat to each other and another area with some bad ****** monsters to group and fight.

    Could leave a Token in the vault for the new Dragon to use to give a special name, so we would still remain the 'oldschool' of the game but then on an even par with the new? Something like 'The Sleepers Chosen'?

    Obviously this is an early idea but it would give the 'oldies like me' somewhere to put their old Dragons and use from time to time but also allow us to 'move on'.

    The game does have to move on and progress, there is no doubt about that or it will end up like UO now with a couple hundred players worldwide hanging onto their old accounts cause they refuse to grow and let go. ;)

    I have had my Dragon for as long as I can remember now but I would be willing to 'retire' him if it ment the game could grow and last another 15 years.
    I've played the new mmo's coming out and none of them have the depth like this game has. If we can revitalise the game and draw in a whole new generation then with the extra money comes new possibilities.
    Last edited by Sindala; September 24th, 2014 at 07:29 PM. Reason: another idea

  19. #19

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    it has already been established that deleting charcaters is an awful idea (the vets basically are the game, it's NOT good to throw that progress we've been working some of us 10 years towards. we have rare items and various other things no one else has, a few of us - disadvantaged? think of it as a loyalty reward for vets, they were here to get them and still play so they deserve them.) and that if the system is implemented current ancients at least will enter in at the level of a (lv100?) hatchie school. So no characters are deleted.

    As for lightning claw's original suggestion...no.
    other games? maybe. istaria already has set lore, dragons are fire beings, and as much as elements might be nice, that's already covered by bipeds. as much as it would be nice, imo it's be awful to disregaurd currnet written lore on dragons, if our lore hasn't been jumbled enough already. new lore is good, but ruining old lroe at the same time is bad. you'd have to be very very careful if such a thing were implemented to make them completely different to bipeds, and to make it fit in with the lore.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    [QUOTE=Sindala;299707]

    The game does have to move on and progress, there is no doubt about that or it will end up like UO now with a couple hundred players worldwide hanging onto their old accounts cause they refuse to grow and let go. ;)

    I totally agree with you on that- and I am willing to cooperate as far as possible.

    I have had my Dragon for as long as I can remember now but I would be willing to 'retire' him if it ment the game could grow and last another 15 years.

    I am not willing to retire- Lov is me in Istaria- there will be no suicide on my side- only a sad end of all.

    I've played the new mmo's coming out and none of them have the depth like this game has. If we can revitalise the game and draw in a whole new generation then with the extra money comes new possibilities.

    Agreed again. But a dramatically change of dragons /their quests/lore/ abilities is NOT the secret how to get new paying customers. I said this before.
    New Players are enthusiastic about dragons. The game might need changes. Starting with dragons- best we have- is the wrong way.
    And this time I do not speak only for myself.
    YOU told me to play a dragon! [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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