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Thread: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

  1. #141

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilithia View Post
    it doesn't take very long to get to 100.
    You've obviously never seen me play :)


  2. #142

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Sorry-first character can take years to 100,ive seen that (done too). but usually its a lot easier when you do 2nd character on so on as you know the places and tricks of the game. meant no offense to anyone.


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  3. #143

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilithia View Post
    Ancient is like another step for dragon therefore extending cap and schools for ancient only makes sense.
    To those who like to stay hatchies,theres one more solution. make another charater. it doesn't take very long to get to 100.
    This is a very dismissive post...

    For the record, I have over 30 characters, among which are 23 Dragons, of which 10 are Ancient or just need to press the button to become ancient. Others are in various stages of training.

    I don't need to 'just make another character', that's just like saying to someone who wouldn't normally have the slots or the funds to 'pay for a sub anyhow, even though you can't afford it'

    I'm tired of seeing so many Ancients and Adults, not specifically mine, but in general.

    No, hatchlings need to be expanded upon, give them a chance to have something different. Ancients and Adults get massive bonuses already, but that should not limit any 'new' schools to just Ancient.

    Not everyone wants to be stuck playing an Ancient, or moreover be forced into becoming Ancient just to have a chance at new schools. Crystalshaper, I'm looking at you, you biased... annoying, hatchie-hater school. It's already been done, don't keep doing it.

    No, give that chance to Adults and Hatchlings too. Its already undisputed that Ancients are the 'strongest' of dragons and its not like a Multiclassed Ancient wouldn't be stronger than a multiclassed Adult or Hatchling. An Ancient's innate stats are impossibly higher.
    Last edited by Litarath; September 18th, 2016 at 06:30 PM.

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  4. #144

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    On the other hand you could think of something that would require you to be hatchling only. Soemthing that adults or ancients cant do anymore.


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  5. #145

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilithia View Post
    Ancient is like another step for dragon therefore extending cap and schools for ancient only makes sense.
    To those who like to stay hatchies,theres one more solution. make another charater. it doesn't take very long to get to 100.
    Spoken like a true Non-RPer. For those that RP a character comes from a part of them.

    IF ancients are getting their own school then why shouldn't hatchlings. Perhaps taking the school perma locks them into the adolescent form. They have chosen to turn the power for growth inwards. So perhaps Epic-Hatchlings learn to focus on evading attacks/spells and mostly on defensive moves... perhaps their sharp little claws have more bleed effects and DoT's

    Either way Hatchies need love
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  6. #146

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    That sounds like a good idea. It is hard to compromise.


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  7. #147

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    I have to say i'd be against the idea of Hatchies getting new schools.
    The Hatchling is the Basic school for Dragons, just like with Bi-peds you can stay basic or you can grow and join the Prestige schools.
    If you want to stay Hatchie forever then that's fine but you forfeit the benefits.
    (I should point out I have an eternal hatchie too, so its not like I'm biased)
    Yup. Totally fine with it being ancient only as well. Some abilities only come from arop, so having those abilities extended in a new school is going to have to exclude hatchlings.

    Having a hatchling be as strong as an ancient is just a reminder that Dragons are nothing more than a biped that flies. Dragons should be set apart from bipeds (have more health as adults and much more health as ancients. Have powerful melee), but also adults should be set apart from hatchlings, and ancients set apart from adults. This is the only logical presentation.

  8. #148

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Guaran View Post
    Yup. Totally fine with it being ancient only as well. Some abilities only come from arop, so having those abilities extended in a new school is going to have to exclude hatchlings.

    Having a hatchling be as strong as an ancient is just a reminder that Dragons are nothing more than a biped that flies. Dragons should be set apart from bipeds (have more health as adults and much more health as ancients. Have powerful melee), but also adults should be set apart from hatchlings, and ancients set apart from adults. This is the only logical presentation.
    Point the first, it's already been established that no hatchling can be strong as an ancient all stats and abilities considered. Its not like we are asking for hatchies to get breath of flame burst, or any of those ancient only abilities and stats.

    Point the second, dragons are already set apart from bipeds, a fact that has been innumerably stated with certain abilities that make them immeasurably stronger in bursts than bipeds. So try to keep this from becoming a biped vs dragon discussion.

    Point the third, ancients and adults are already set apart from hatchlings, there doesn't need to be even more delineation between them. Of course, coming from people from Chaos, no offense, that only focus on 'beat the game' mentality, of course they would feel better about adults and ancients being stronger or even more privileged than hatchlings. They don't want hatchlings to be comparable to ancients and adults, not that they were to begin with.

    Point the fourth, the game tends to force ascension upon hatchlings and the 'reason' 'its your choice, you choose not to do so, so you shouldn't be allowed to get new things' isn't a valid arguement. Some things like Flame Burst and Drulkar's Wrath as well as the resurrect and countless other abilities that adults get, we can handle not getting.

    Of course we made that choice, but that doesn't mean those of us that want to keep our hatchlings can't comprehend or understand the fact that dragons are supposed to get stronger as they grow.

    Just because we are aware of that, doesn't mean that hatchlings shouldn't be allowed to be expanded upon.

    What I'm getting is that certain veterans and 'game beaters' want to specifically exclude and make keeping hatchlings unpleasant. Hatchlings can contribute as much as an adult or ancient, if they are played well. I already know that myself and one other person, who still have hatchlings that have participated in the Dev Raids and suffered less deaths than even some Ancients, Adults, and Multi-classed Bipeds.

    Keeping those classes Ancient or Adult only completely ignores an entire Shard, which does some of what it does for RP reasons alone. It's not reasonable to exclude an entire race (being hatchling, they ARE a playable race, so are Adults and Ancients). There are multiple people I"m aware of that Crystalshaper being limited to just adult and ancient has upset them and even made them consider leaving the game entirely.

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  9. #149

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Litarath View Post
    ... Of course, coming from people from Chaos, no offense
    That's offensive..

    Quote Originally Posted by Litarath View Post
    , that only focus on 'beat the game' mentality, of course they would feel better about adults and ancients being stronger or even more privileged than hatchlings.
    You don't know what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litarath View Post
    Point the fourth, the game tends to force ascension upon hatchlings and the 'reason' 'its your choice, you choose not to do so, so you shouldn't be allowed to get new things' isn't a valid arguement. Some things like Flame Burst and Drulkar's Wrath as well as the resurrect and countless other abilities that adults get, we can handle not getting.
    If that's true then you wouldn't miss an Ancient only school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litarath View Post
    Of course we made that choice, but that doesn't mean those of us that want to keep our hatchlings can't comprehend or understand the fact that dragons are supposed to get stronger as they grow.
    But that's just it, staying as a Hatchling is the opposite of Growing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litarath View Post
    Just because we are aware of that, doesn't mean that hatchlings shouldn't be allowed to be expanded upon.

    What I'm getting is that certain veterans and 'game beaters' want to specifically exclude and make keeping hatchlings unpleasant.
    Don't know who you are talking about here, but you are certainly not speaking to my motivations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Litarath View Post
    Keeping those classes Ancient or Adult only completely ignores an entire Shard, which does some of what it does for RP reasons alone...
    That's a complete stretch, only a few have chosen to "not grow" and I definitely saw way more ancients than Hatchies (one) during Orders' raid.

  10. #150

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Only thing id like to add, I totally wouldn't mind to see hatchling expansion,more content is always better. but that would probably be for another topic. why not start a thread on that Litarath?


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  11. #151
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilithia View Post
    Only thing id like to add, I totally wouldn't mind to see hatchling expansion,more content is always better. but that would probably be for another topic. why not start a thread on that Litarath?
    More content is always nice. However, I dislike content arbitrarily limited. I would not like only ancients getting new schools and excluding adults/hatchlings (heck bipeds could use some too *stares at neo-monk*). However, I'd also dislike it if schools were created specifically for hatchlings/adults and excluded ancients. Or any combination of the three.

    That's offensive..
    Chaos the is the designated PvE shard, is it not?

    If that's true then you wouldn't miss an Ancient only school.
    Not having several abilities that come from two (albeit large) quest chains that you can do perfectly fine without is /nowhere near/ missing out on an entire school(s) and everything that comes with it/them.

    That's a complete stretch, only a few have chosen to "not grow" and I definitely saw way more ancients than Hatchies (one) during Orders' raid.
    Having been on Order for a significant amount of time (around 4 years, likely more than the length of the single order raid) I can attest to the presence of hatchlings/adults that did not/refuse to ascend, the number being more than one. Not a complete stretch.

    Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    I have to say i'd be against the idea of Hatchies getting new schools.
    The Hatchling is the Basic school for Dragons, just like with Bi-peds you can stay basic or you can grow and join the Prestige schools.
    If you want to stay Hatchie forever then that's fine but you forfeit the benefits.
    (I should point out I have an eternal hatchie too, so its not like I'm biased)
    Dragon Adventurer is the basic school for dragons :P I'm fine with giving up the current (current being, as of when I started to grumble about this - so yes, I'm still annoyed about t6 scales xD) benefits of adult/ancient/whatever, but geez...why keep adding on to what I'm giving up? O_O


    TLDR - I see no reason why a dev should go out of their way (considering the alternative) to limit player choices purely because someone's in-game avatar is a different size.

    Edit: Another bump to Kaerisk's write up of dragon schools. I feel they've not been given enough attention and he's done a really good job with them.

  12. #152

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    On hatchling schools;
    The issue with only giving ancients new schools is that they're going to be IMMENSELY more effective at combat than a hatchling.
    Right now, yes, the best ancient dragon will do more damage and take more damage than the best hatchling, BUT hatchlings do still have enough damage/defense/tactics to be useful in an epic hunt and decent to use overall...

    If you block hatchlings from new combat schools/restrict to noob schools...as much as you COULD still use them in combat...they'd be so outclassed by ancients it'd just get frustrating, and annoying to fight in anything that isn't ancient.

    Uber hatchlings don't want to be better than an ancient, no, but they don't want to be left completely in the dust by them either. A hatchling will always be weaker..but that weakness gap doesn't have to be massive, and the fear is, new dragon schools being ancient only would make that weakness gap massive to the point uber hatchlings feel discouraged from playing at all (-looks at certain players who main in uber hatchlings-).

    I for one would love hatchling only schools - say, only accessable at 100adv at the very least, if one choses to ascend all abilities in it are greyed out (requirement: race - hatchling dragon?) and npc dialogue changes to no longer offer a switch to that school (should it exist), so it'd be a useless school that could then be removed just like bipeds can remove their schools.

    As i imagine them, they'd have a school that would be focused on speed, evasion, DoTs, and in exchange lose a lot of pure damage bursts that dragons get currently, DoTs being a major area which dragons lack in and istaria widely lacks. (at least one school anyway, only providing one specialist school would be bad xD)
    Last edited by Azath; September 20th, 2016 at 07:44 PM.

  13. #153

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Azath View Post
    On hatchling schools;
    The issue with only giving ancients new schools is that they're going to be IMMENSELY more effective at combat than a hatchling.
    This is as it should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Azath View Post
    I for one would love hatchling only schools - say, only accessable at 100adv at the very least, if one choses to ascend all abilities in it are greyed out (requirement: race - hatchling dragon?)
    Lol. So you are not ok with an Ancient only school, but are ok with a hatchy only school... And not a school for hatchies level 0-99 either, nope, only level 100 hatchies...

    At that point, I think it would be catering to .1% of the player population. Pretty sure that qualifies as a waste of dev time.
    *************************************

    If some new school came out, and it was done in such a way as to work with the existing DRAG abilities, and/or replace a few, hatchlings could probably join it, I'm not sure I would see a problem with that. A hatchy having the same power as an ancient would be ridiculous, not going to ever think that is a good idea.

    But lets say part of the school is some passive buffs, similar to "Path of the Lunus" for example. So there would be 3 versions of the passive buff. Hatchies would get one with say +10 damage, delay adjusted. Beginner Path of the Conqueror. Adults would get Journeyman Path of the Conqueror, +30 damage, delay adjusted, +150 Dragon Breath. Ancients would get Expert Path of the Conqueror, +50 damage, delay adjusted, +400 Dragon Breath.

    If those + damage sound high, don't worry about it since this school would very likely loose Gold Rage. Some additional damage across the board is needed to make it even worth bothering with. When joining the school, the game gives you all three paths, but each has specific race restriction to Hatchling, Adult Dragon, Ancient Dragon (Could even throw in a 4th that is specific to Khutit), and all would be non-masterable. The race restriction would allow only 1 to be in effect at a time. And dev's could build from there for some new abilities. Total DPS should meet or exceed a dragons dps as it was when gold rage was on a 15 second recycle for the ancient path.

    **
    I also still think the ancient rop weapon crystals should instead be passive abilities... and give both to both Lunus and Helians. Helians should be able to melee with the best Lunus Ancients, and Lunus should be able to Drain Bolt with the best Helian Ancients...

    Then the schools can be the differentiator, not the political faction.
    Last edited by Guaran; September 20th, 2016 at 11:20 PM.

  14. #154

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Ok what about as an idea...we have dragon adventurer school. as a basic school

    then we have 3 prestige schools...melee. caster. evasion

    ok then have for example
    Hatchlings get a 110% racial dexterity/evasion/magic evasion bonus (due to nimbleness)
    adults get 110% racial power/str bonus (due to raw power)
    ancients get 110% racial power/str/focus/dexterity (Due to sheer size (Hard to get out of the way of a 15ft claw))

    All current dragon quest abilities become quest points which then open up tiers which get progressively more expensive as they get more powerful? gold rage I = 1 gold rage II = 1+2 etc

    on top of this ROP grants say... 10 bonus points and ancient grants another 10 bonus points

    Just an idea.
    Last edited by Calyndrell; September 21st, 2016 at 02:45 AM.
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  15. #155
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Ok, we know the Dragon school and Bi-ped schools are set up differently but look at it this way.
    Hatchy = Base
    Adult = Prestige
    Ancient = Rating 267.

    Hatchlings are not a race, they are the 1st part of being a Dragon. Just because they look cuter don't mean the game needs re-making around them.
    You want to be a Dragon that don't fly but is powerful? then make a Sslik.
    A new school for Dragons would be based off changing Ancient specs and abilities, this has been said.
    That means it would not and could not be done for Hatchies OR Adults as they are vastly different than Ancients (remember the R267 of the dragon world).

    As always thou, it depends on what the Hamsters can handle and how much extra work we want to give them. ;)

  16. #156

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    Ok, we know the Dragon school and Bi-ped schools are set up differently but look at it this way.
    Hatchy = Base
    Adult = Prestige
    Ancient = Rating 267.

    Hatchlings are not a race, they are the 1st part of being a Dragon. Just because they look cuter don't mean the game needs re-making around them.
    You want to be a Dragon that don't fly but is powerful? then make a Sslik.
    A new school for Dragons would be based off changing Ancient specs and abilities, this has been said.
    That means it would not and could not be done for Hatchies OR Adults as they are vastly different than Ancients (remember the R267 of the dragon world).

    As always thou, it depends on what the Hamsters can handle and how much extra work we want to give them. ;)
    Point the first, the game classifies hatchlings as a race, it says as much on the player search, in fact, there's three different filters for the dragons. Clearly, they are considered a race by the game's mechanics.

    Point the second, it has been clearly suggested that it wouldn't be based entirely off changing ancient specs and abilities and furthermore, it has been suggested to GIVE ancients and adults more boosts in different schools, but not given for hatchlings, which, is fair enough. It has also been mentioned that it COULD be done for all stages of growth for a dragon.

    Point the third, it wouldn't be 'reworking the game around hatchlings' it would be 'expanding upon the options a player would have AS a dragon'.

    Point the fourth, those of us that want to keep our hatchlings have already said we'd not mind adults and ancients having higher boosts in such classes whereas hatchlings would not receive those.

    Those of us that want to expand upon our hatchling experience have already, often and clearly, admitted being willing to concede SOME things for adults and ancients, but we vehemently protest making even more 'Ancient-only' or 'Adult and Ancient-only' things, if it comes to multi-classing.

    Further, we've even said we'd be willing to work to 100 ADV/100 Craft to become eligible for multiclassing.

    Why is there such a need and desire to restrict and prevent playstyles and force it into being only adult and ancient or just ancient only?

    We cannot possibly fathom how allowing a hatchling, that would STILL be weaker than an adult and ancient anyhow, even with multi-classing would break the game, or cause such a problem.

    It's not about 'beating the game' for those of us on the Order Shard, or even maybe some, if any, on Chaos that choose to play a 'perma-hatchling', but that doesn't mean that hatchlings should be completely cut out from any expansion either.

    And last point, that bit about 'want to be a dragon but not fly, make a SSlik' is very dismissive and callous, 'you don't want to ascend, then don't play a dragon' is what I get from that or even this, 'because you don't want to ascend, you shouldn't be allowed to play how you would like to' or even.... 'why even play if you don't want to play by the way we want it to be'
    Last edited by Litarath; September 21st, 2016 at 05:57 PM.

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  17. #157

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I guess hatchlings and adults are only concidered a "race" because dragons don`t grow up normally anymore.

    "If being of fire means blind arrogance and the elevation of violence above reason, then let me be of water!"

  18. #158

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    Quote Originally Posted by Tilithia View Post
    On the other hand you could think of something that would require you to be hatchling only. Soemthing that adults or ancients cant do anymore.
    Only thing like this I can think of is, the replica chest scales. It's the only "Hatchie-only" thing I can recall. :/

    I'm also slowly browsing through this thread, I don't have a lot to add, beyond "Hatchies need more options besides ascending."
    -scoots out of the way again.
    Denaryr, ancient, 100/100/36/10Fireth, ancient, 100/100/19


  19. #159

    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    *Pictures Kung-Fu Dragon hatchies running around...*

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

    I'd like to add my two copper about growth.


    This thread opened two years ago. The concept of it and the desire for it have been around a lot longer. As a reminder, the title of the topic is New Schools, specifically, for dragons. In these passing two years we have seen a few new spells, claw strike, and gold rage getting nerfed. How many new adventure schools were added? 0. Though crystalshaper was added, it was not asked for or debated in this discussion.

    We as a community haven't grown.

    Every time I come back to this thread, hoping, maybe, this time it will be different. That people will have found something to agree upon, even if it isn't what I worked up, and that the devs will have agreed as well. But every time I come back, the topic has been derailed. There's always some divisive issue or non-sequitur that people attack or defend. It's never, "oh, I like this class more than that one" - it's, "I don't ever want this thing - yes you DO!" It's extremely disheartening.

    It's also why we have 0 new adventure classes.

    With the community being as small as we are, the devs really can't risk making a move that could alienate one side or another. So naturally, their only move is to make no move. I know we live in an exceptionally divided time and that the values many hold are so sacrosanct that they could never imagine even glancing at the other side. But if new schools is something that we truly want, we're going to have to compromise. That was my goal behind writing up all the classes and the lore that I did: I wanted to give us a starting point for us to rally around. For us to say, these classes are good and I would enjoy playing them, but they might need to be tweaked in X, Y, or Z way. And we can argue X, Y, and Z until we're blue in the face, but at least we will have said, yes: we want new schools.

    And, as someone who does, I concede the point that it is possible that there are those that don't want new schools. And if that's the case, we need to stop coming back to this thread or find a compromise.

    So let's keep it simple. No explanation, no argument for or against, just a vote. Do you want more dragon schools, yes or no?
    Maekrux Vythulhar, the Blue Phoenix
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