Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

[AmonGwareth]

Use this thread to discuss new dragon schools (replacing the existing one).

[AmonGwareth]

Since this is the one I proposed already, I have nothing more to add here. I think it would take time to get a good balance, but new schools and progression might actually bring back players over the addition of a few more levels. As someone asked, existing quests would need to be altered to keep lore (though many of the ability quests are quite thin on lore, if at all). As with the rites too. But more could be done since there would be full level 100 schools to fill with new abilities.

[AmonGwareth]

One additional thought related to existing Dragon quests. This choice would not invalidate them. In fact, you could still do the quests for the abilities. The abilities would just be unusable until you completed the quest, but would show up in your ability list from the school.

The other thing is that we can patch new schools to Blight and let players test it out like we have done with neo-Monk.

[Cooolios]

I believe this route would be best also noting that many players have 2 different dragons for helian/lunus buffs. These 2 classifications could be broken down further to tank/dps and healer/caster. To me it makes the most sense because lets face it, the crystal, the passives, and the active abilities quested for already make this distinction between the two factions. I mean lunus get what?? 250-400 Tooth and claw, extra strength and the same goes for helian with primal and power. It just makes sense to follow what we have set no??? Criticism please!

[AmonGwareth]

So, here's some rough ideas for the first three schools.

JJuvenile Dragon School

• MagicEvasion/Evasion? 8
• Tooth&Claw/Primal? 9
• DragonBreath? 10
• Health 25
• Strength/Power/Focus/Dexterity? 8
• Armor 7
• EthArmor? 7
• Abilities:
  
  • Breath of Fire
  • Power Strike (Bite)
  • Crit Strike (Silver Strike)
  • Multistrike (Ravage)
  • Stun (Tail STrike)
  • Mez (Howl)
  • Root NEW
  • Ranged Bolt (Galewind)
  • Ranged DoT (Reach)
  • Self HoT (Breeze)
  • Self Buffs (Roar, Determination)
  • Intercept Attack (Men. Presence)
  • Lower incoming attack (Negate) (Snarl)
  • Gold Rage (high level)
  • Rez (high level) NEW (Primal Resurrect ?)
  • Gift (Self, All Stats)

SSoldier (Warrior)

• MagicEvasion/Evasion? 7/9
• Tooth&Claw/Primal? 10/8
• DragonBreath? 10
• Health 25
• Strength/Power/Focus/Dexterity? 9/7/7/9
• Armor 9
• EthArmor? 5
• Abilities:
  
  • Breath of Flame Burst
  • Melee Strike (Drain Strike)
  • AoE Tail Strike NEW (Tail Sweep)
  • Damage Shield (vs Melee) (Spiked)
  • Gold Rage (Hoard)
  • Enrage (More Strength) (Hoard) NEW
  • Bolster Friend (Boost Attack Speed) (Hoard) NEW (Roar of ?)
  • Root/Bleed? (Hoard) NEW (Tail Strike ?)
  • AoE Stun NEW (Stomp/Earthquake?)
  • AoE Group Gift (Strength) NEW (Gift of ?)
  • Breath of Acid (Hoard)

AAdept (Caster)

• MagicEvasion/Evasion? 9/7
• Tooth&Claw/Primal? 8/10
• DragonBreath? 10
• Health 25
• Strength/Power/Focus/Dexterity? 7/9/9/7
• Armor 5
• EthArmor? 9
• Abilities:
  
  • Breath of Lightning
  • Bomb NEW (Primal Bomb?)
  • Spell Strike (Drain Bolt)
  • Damage Shield (vs Magic) NEW
  • Gold Burst (Hoard) NEW
  • Enhance Will (More Power) (Hoard) NEW (Hardened Will)
  • Heal (Others) (Hoard) (Instant Heal)
  • Rez (Hoard) (Superior)
  • AoE Mez (Hoard) NEW (Ferocious Stare ?)
  • AoE Group Gift (Power) (Hoard) NEW (Gift of ?)
  • Breath of Poison Gas (Hoard) NEW

[Cooolios]

I like this:) It feels like different classes now!!!

Now are these going to follow the Lunus/Helian routes? Or will both classes be able to choose either Lunus or Helian?

[Sindala]

I get the feeling that this is gonna be a hard sell to the 'old Ancients'.

Perhaps if it's possible you could make another Rift, one only accessible by an 'old' Ancient but once they go thru it's a one way trip?
Hmm....you could have The Sleeper awaken and take those he finds worthy (old ancients) to a place of "eternal knowledge and rest, free from the Naka and their petty ways".
Could have a small town area where they can sit and chat to each other and another area with some bad ****** monsters to group and fight.

Could leave a Token in the vault for the new Dragon to use to give a special name, so we would still remain the 'oldschool' of the game but then on an even par with the new? Something like 'The Sleepers Chosen'?

Obviously this is an early idea but it would give the 'oldies like me' somewhere to put their old Dragons and use from time to time but also allow us to 'move on'.

The game does have to move on and progress, there is no doubt about that or it will end up like UO now with a couple hundred players worldwide hanging onto their old accounts cause they refuse to grow and let go. ;)

I have had my Dragon for as long as I can remember now but I would be willing to 'retire' him if it ment the game could grow and last another 15 years.
I've played the new mmo's coming out and none of them have the depth like this game has. If we can revitalise the game and draw in a whole new generation then with the extra money comes new possibilities.

[LOVWYRM]

[QUOTE=Sindala;299707]

The game does have to move on and progress, there is no doubt about that or it will end up like UO now with a couple hundred players worldwide hanging onto their old accounts cause they refuse to grow and let go. ;)

I totally agree with you on that- and I am willing to cooperate as far as possible.

I have had my Dragon for as long as I can remember now but I would be willing to 'retire' him if it ment the game could grow and last another 15 years.

I am not willing to retire- Lov is me in Istaria- there will be no suicide on my side- only a sad end of all.

I've played the new mmo's coming out and none of them have the depth like this game has. If we can revitalise the game and draw in a whole new generation then with the extra money comes new possibilities.

Agreed again. But a dramatically change of dragons /their quests/lore/ abilities is NOT the secret how to get new paying customers. I said this before.
New Players are enthusiastic about dragons. The game might need changes. Starting with dragons- best we have- is the wrong way.
And this time I do not speak only for myself.

[Chioxin]

I'll start a new character if I feel like it... Every time I do start a new character, I end up quitting. However, if my old ancient KNOWN BY EVERYONE character is useless because of a design decision that I have no power to rectify... uh... You realize how much time and effort some of us dumped into our characters? I think poor V and Amon, as you put it, just lost a sub.

The idea is great, Lightning, but yes while one has to think about the coders, they also have to think about their customer base and basically nuking their character into unrecoverable uselessness is a really bad thing.

Anyway, they should probably work within the system they already have, so less code is needed. Just add the classes you desire. Now, there's two ways you can approach this of course. You can make a dragon have to get 100 in the base class before it's allowed to multiclass, or, you can just set similar goals as you do for bipeds to allow a dragon to multiclass. I suppose you could also allow dragons to multiclass whenever and just make their ability to learn a new class when their highest level supports it.

Not sure why it has to be some big "todo" that's different than how it's done for bipeds. Why make it harder on yourself? Players just want to customize their dragon's class... like they should have been able to do 12 years ago.

[Kaerisk]

I’ll be perfectly honest. Over a decade ago, I sent the devs a ten page manifesto on why dragons being locked to a single class was a bad idea, and two possible solutions for it. It was largely ignored, possibly because that team was swamped and could not hope to implement what was needed. Instead, we got Gold Rage, and that was all the character development most dragons felt they needed… the ability to smoosh anything. I wish I still had that old document, but it’s long gone at this point; moreover, it would no longer be relevant now, over a decade later, well past the point of no return.

That said, I don’t think there is *nothing* that can be done at this point. The game can advance, but it has to advance on the same rails that it has been stuck on, or you run the risk of alienating those people who have spent so many years of their life crafting their characters, myself included. Just looking at all of the posts here pretty much sums it up: Don’t change my character. Don’t make me have to roll a new one.

Well, let’s have a look at what dragons are and why they are the way they currently are.

Dragons: Jack of All Trades, Master of Gold Rage

Late in the development cycle, almost literally weeks before moving out of beta, the dragon was completely redesigned. While I was playing beta, I was a dragon blood mage. Sure it was pretty much a reskin of a biped blood mage, but I still liked it. Some of us were a bit confused at this choice, some speculated that it was always intended to trick us so that dragons would be a whole new experience when the game moved out of beta, but most of us understood the real reason: dragons were supposed to be unique. Making them giant bipeds was not unique.

Unfortunately, while the single-class design, quested abilities, and, added much later, the ascension, made the dragon a unique character, it was not fully designed. Some of the abilities we got were hilariously underpowered, especially compared to a multi-class biped. There was no Gold Rage then: Winteria taught an ability called Winter Strike or something of that nature, which worked something like Staggering Howl does. There was no primal revitalize, only the quested cooldown ability and breezes. There was hoard leak which, while an entirely separate issue to this post, made it so that you had a hard time getting the armor and damage most dragons now easily get from hoard. Primal spells took a very long time to cast, and most players didn’t use them. The result was that dragons felt a little bit squishy, and not at all powerful.

As you might imagine, this experience, while unique, did not live up to players’ expectations about what a dragon was meant to be. At the time of my manifesto, we could not even fly, and there was an extreme hope that adult dragons would bring new class opportunities or some quested abilities or SOMETHING that would turn the tables. The rite certainly delivered on content and we dragons loved it, but once the glow faded, we began to realize the horrible truth: we were hatchlings with wings.

The devs then scrambled to come up with a new solution. They obviously didn’t have the time to create new classes and balance them versus the others; moreover, giving them classes would simply put them back into the ‘biped clone’ category, which was the thing they tried to avoid in the first place. The only option that they could come up with was to remove hoard leak, create new, powerful abilities like silver strike and gold rage which would use hoard, and hope it would be enough.

And it was. It broke my heart to see the implementation of gold rage, because I knew there was no going back from that point. Dragons now possessed an IWIN button, rather than meaningful content or choices that they had to make. And that could NEVER be undone.

While I was personally disappointed, dragons pretty much universally lauded the changes. Dragons have since increased in power and flexibility as time passed, such as increasing spell options and spell power so caster dragons can work just as well or better than melee dragons, primal attack and alacrity and heal, and so on. Honestly, life’s been pretty good for dragons, though somewhat stale because of our lack of choices.

Likely, this is what the devs are now attempting to combat. It’s a decade too late, but is there anything we can do?

Current Situation

We know for certain that players, especially the dedicated player base that has been here as long as I have, do not want to see their characters change or invalidated. What this means is that we cannot move into a multiclass scenario like the bipeds have, and we cannot alter the Dragon Adventurer class as it stands too much. In the original manifesto, I suggested specialized dragon forms for one of the options, which would have worked something like stances, increasing stats and abilities in one area while weakening them in another. That is likely too much of a change for the player base to accept at this point, and so it is off the table.

What we must do, then, is to create changes that make the dragon still unique from bipeds, but can be easily implemented and allow vertical progression and something, frankly, to do on your max-level dragon.

Suggestion: Specializations and Vocations

A year or two ago, I was roleplaying on Order and came up with the idea that dragons once followed Vocations – that is, jobs – prior to the destruction of Draak and the coming of the Aegis. This makes a lot of sense, really, as not all dragons can be hunters and crafters for a society to function. There needs to be scientists, politicians, religious leaders, and so on. While most of them would not fit well into the adventuring side of things, there are a few that would, and we’ll come back to those in a bit.

Looking back at the history of dragons and how we got to this one-class-rut, we know that the design decision was to keep dragons unique. So how can we give them classes that are not the same thing as biped schools? Specialization.

Here is how this system would work.

Dragons could choose to ‘specialize’ into one of three to six schools. The three main specialties would be Conqueror (melee), Primalist (spellcaster), or Windmender (healer).This choice would be semi-permanent, meaning they could not switch to another class without first forgetting the specialized school they were in. And yes I know some people have expressed worry that this should not be a permanent choice, but as long as we have the option to switch, even if it is an arduous switch, I think this decision would be fine.

Each of these schools would have appropriate stats – as you might have noticed, dragon adventurer stat gains are quite non-specialized in everything except health, because the class is designed to be the jack of all trades. Bipeds, however, will multiclass to get the best stat gains in a statistic possible, and this choice would mirror that. For example, a Conqueror would have a 10 Strength, 4 Power, 4 Focus, 9 Dex progression, as opposed to the Adventurer’s 7-7-7-7. Skill progression, too, could be better.

What about Dragon Adventurer, then? We should keep that just as it is right now. All abilities, quested or otherwise, should still be tied to this class, and specialization should only be allowed once that class reaches 100 – which is really not much to ask for, and frankly a really good idea for how multiclassing XP works in this game. It should not be tied to faction or age/form of the dragon. Some of the non-quested abilities might not be masterable or otherwise transfer to the new class, but the quested ones probably should for ease of implementation if nothing else.

So, other than the stat progression, what’s the point of the specialization classes? New abilities of course. However, in order to make this still further unique to dragons, the abilities must not be simple copy-paste abilities from bipeds. For example: a Conqueror might get an ability similar to defensive stance. Rather than it just be ‘dragon gets armor for a short period,’ make it unique: Maginval’s Bulwark, which would increase armor significantly for a short duration, but also limit speed (and flight) to 0.

What about people who want to be a mix? Let ‘em. I said three to six classes for a reason: let there be in-between specializations too. A healer-warrior would be a Champion of Drulkar, working like a paladin. They would get weaker versions of the Windmender and Conqueror’s abilities (just like real biped hybrids, getting the same skill at higher levels) and their stat progression would not be as specific (again just like biped hybrids). A warrior-mage would be a Talonmaster, using prime magic to create elemental attacks (like Winter Strike, but less useless), and a mage-healer could be a Clouddancer or Primeshifter. Could even bring back the old Storm magic for it; I loved storm magic in beta, frankly, and used it even as a blood mage.

Not only does this system require very little work in terms of changing what already exists, it stays true to the original ‘unique’ design concept that makes dragons, well, unique. The greatest challenge will be to create truly unique abilities that will not overpower dragons beyond that of bipeds, but I fully believe this can be done, especially if they follow the line of thought of the Bulwark: making most of the abilities have some drawback to counter-balance their power, which is the same idea that led the design of Gold Rage in the first place.

In Conclusion

I think that it is far too late to change the direction of the dragon class. That does not mean, however, we cannot move forward. Rather than schools, let us have vocations – let us specialize to a particular calling, but be able to change it if we are willing to give up our previous specialization. Let us remain unique, but still have the ability to make hard choices and have the options our naka friends do. Let’s hope dragons fly in the right direction this time.

Please let me know what you think on the proposal of specializations and vocations. Feel free to suggest possible skills or abilities the specializations would have as well. If you want to have a look at other vocations I came up with, feel free to search Dragon Academy (Reboot) on the Order main boards. Do keep in mind that the dev team is currently limited, so keep any suggestions within the realm of ‘possible.’

[Spyrioyo]

I’ll be perfectly honest. Over a decade ago, I sent the devs a ten page manifesto on why dragons being locked to a single class was a bad idea, and two possible solutions for it. It was largely ignored, possibly because that team was swamped and could not hope to implement what was needed. Instead, we got Gold Rage, and that was all the character development most dragons felt they needed… the ability to smoosh anything. I wish I still had that old document, but it’s long gone at this point; moreover, it would no longer be relevant now, over a decade later, well past the point of no return.

That said, I don’t think there is *nothing* that can be done at this point. The game can advance, but it has to advance on the same rails that it has been stuck on, or you run the risk of alienating those people who have spent so many years of their life crafting their characters, myself included. Just looking at all of the posts here pretty much sums it up: Don’t change my character. Don’t make me have to roll a new one.

Well, let’s have a look at what dragons are and why they are the way they currently are.

Dragons: Jack of All Trades, Master of Gold Rage

Late in the development cycle, almost literally weeks before moving out of beta, the dragon was completely redesigned. While I was playing beta, I was a dragon blood mage. Sure it was pretty much a reskin of a biped blood mage, but I still liked it. Some of us were a bit confused at this choice, some speculated that it was always intended to trick us so that dragons would be a whole new experience when the game moved out of beta, but most of us understood the real reason: dragons were supposed to be unique. Making them giant bipeds was not unique.

Unfortunately, while the single-class design, quested abilities, and, added much later, the ascension, made the dragon a unique character, it was not fully designed. Some of the abilities we got were hilariously underpowered, especially compared to a multi-class biped. There was no Gold Rage then: Winteria taught an ability called Winter Strike or something of that nature, which worked something like Staggering Howl does. There was no primal revitalize, only the quested cooldown ability and breezes. There was hoard leak which, while an entirely separate issue to this post, made it so that you had a hard time getting the armor and damage most dragons now easily get from hoard. Primal spells took a very long time to cast, and most players didn’t use them. The result was that dragons felt a little bit squishy, and not at all powerful.

As you might imagine, this experience, while unique, did not live up to players’ expectations about what a dragon was meant to be. At the time of my manifesto, we could not even fly, and there was an extreme hope that adult dragons would bring new class opportunities or some quested abilities or SOMETHING that would turn the tables. The rite certainly delivered on content and we dragons loved it, but once the glow faded, we began to realize the horrible truth: we were hatchlings with wings.

The devs then scrambled to come up with a new solution. They obviously didn’t have the time to create new classes and balance them versus the others; moreover, giving them classes would simply put them back into the ‘biped clone’ category, which was the thing they tried to avoid in the first place. The only option that they could come up with was to remove hoard leak, create new, powerful abilities like silver strike and gold rage which would use hoard, and hope it would be enough.

And it was. It broke my heart to see the implementation of gold rage, because I knew there was no going back from that point. Dragons now possessed an IWIN button, rather than meaningful content or choices that they had to make. And that could NEVER be undone.

While I was personally disappointed, dragons pretty much universally lauded the changes. Dragons have since increased in power and flexibility as time passed, such as increasing spell options and spell power so caster dragons can work just as well or better than melee dragons, primal attack and alacrity and heal, and so on. Honestly, life’s been pretty good for dragons, though somewhat stale because of our lack of choices.

Likely, this is what the devs are now attempting to combat. It’s a decade too late, but is there anything we can do?

Current Situation

We know for certain that players, especially the dedicated player base that has been here as long as I have, do not want to see their characters change or invalidated. What this means is that we cannot move into a multiclass scenario like the bipeds have, and we cannot alter the Dragon Adventurer class as it stands too much. In the original manifesto, I suggested specialized dragon forms for one of the options, which would have worked something like stances, increasing stats and abilities in one area while weakening them in another. That is likely too much of a change for the player base to accept at this point, and so it is off the table.

What we must do, then, is to create changes that make the dragon still unique from bipeds, but can be easily implemented and allow vertical progression and something, frankly, to do on your max-level dragon.

Suggestion: Specializations and Vocations

A year or two ago, I was roleplaying on Order and came up with the idea that dragons once followed Vocations – that is, jobs – prior to the destruction of Draak and the coming of the Aegis. This makes a lot of sense, really, as not all dragons can be hunters and crafters for a society to function. There needs to be scientists, politicians, religious leaders, and so on. While most of them would not fit well into the adventuring side of things, there are a few that would, and we’ll come back to those in a bit.

Looking back at the history of dragons and how we got to this one-class-rut, we know that the design decision was to keep dragons unique. So how can we give them classes that are not the same thing as biped schools? Specialization.

Here is how this system would work.

Dragons could choose to ‘specialize’ into one of three to six schools. The three main specialties would be Conqueror (melee), Primalist (spellcaster), or Windmender (healer).This choice would be semi-permanent, meaning they could not switch to another class without first forgetting the specialized school they were in. And yes I know some people have expressed worry that this should not be a permanent choice, but as long as we have the option to switch, even if it is an arduous switch, I think this decision would be fine.

Each of these schools would have appropriate stats – as you might have noticed, dragon adventurer stat gains are quite non-specialized in everything except health, because the class is designed to be the jack of all trades. Bipeds, however, will multiclass to get the best stat gains in a statistic possible, and this choice would mirror that. For example, a Conqueror would have a 10 Strength, 4 Power, 4 Focus, 9 Dex progression, as opposed to the Adventurer’s 7-7-7-7. Skill progression, too, could be better.

What about Dragon Adventurer, then? We should keep that just as it is right now. All abilities, quested or otherwise, should still be tied to this class, and specialization should only be allowed once that class reaches 100 – which is really not much to ask for, and frankly a really good idea for how multiclassing XP works in this game. It should not be tied to faction or age/form of the dragon. Some of the non-quested abilities might not be masterable or otherwise transfer to the new class, but the quested ones probably should for ease of implementation if nothing else.

So, other than the stat progression, what’s the point of the specialization classes? New abilities of course. However, in order to make this still further unique to dragons, the abilities must not be simple copy-paste abilities from bipeds. For example: a Conqueror might get an ability similar to defensive stance. Rather than it just be ‘dragon gets armor for a short period,’ make it unique: Maginval’s Bulwark, which would increase armor significantly for a short duration, but also limit speed (and flight) to 0.

What about people who want to be a mix? Let ‘em. I said three to six classes for a reason: let there be in-between specializations too. A healer-warrior would be a Champion of Drulkar, working like a paladin. They would get weaker versions of the Windmender and Conqueror’s abilities (just like real biped hybrids, getting the same skill at higher levels) and their stat progression would not be as specific (again just like biped hybrids). A warrior-mage would be a Talonmaster, using prime magic to create elemental attacks (like Winter Strike, but less useless), and a mage-healer could be a Clouddancer or Primeshifter. Could even bring back the old Storm magic for it; I loved storm magic in beta, frankly, and used it even as a blood mage.

Not only does this system require very little work in terms of changing what already exists, it stays true to the original ‘unique’ design concept that makes dragons, well, unique. The greatest challenge will be to create truly unique abilities that will not overpower dragons beyond that of bipeds, but I fully believe this can be done, especially if they follow the line of thought of the Bulwark: making most of the abilities have some drawback to counter-balance their power, which is the same idea that led the design of Gold Rage in the first place.

In Conclusion

I think that it is far too late to change the direction of the dragon class. That does not mean, however, we cannot move forward. Rather than schools, let us have vocations – let us specialize to a particular calling, but be able to change it if we are willing to give up our previous specialization. Let us remain unique, but still have the ability to make hard choices and have the options our naka friends do. Let’s hope dragons fly in the right direction this time.

Please let me know what you think on the proposal of specializations and vocations. Feel free to suggest possible skills or abilities the specializations would have as well. If you want to have a look at other vocations I came up with, feel free to search Dragon Academy (Reboot) on the Order main boards. Do keep in mind that the dev team is currently limited, so keep any suggestions within the realm of ‘possible.’

I kind of agree with your post it should start after 100 level but also with this chance the quests that only happened when your ancient should be allowed at normal levels like the 90s or at level 100 for adventurer, but also should allow change schools with in reason and also allow in-between like hybrid schools and they shouldn't be tied down to fraction that would be a horrible mistake.

[Arzel Rashemi]

With the majority of active dragon players still reeling from all the very recent dragon changes, I think adding any schools or changing anything else right now is a bad idea for dragons. We who play dragons need time to readjust to the new way things work. (and that includes combat not being solely dependent on Gold Rage or Breath of Flame Burst anymore.) I can't see after all the major recent changes done, there being any major changes like schools being added.

[Kaerisk]

I encourage people to check out my suggestions starting around page 3 and going well into page 4, on the concept of dragon Vocations (differentiating them from schools, but functionally similar). I tried to add in all of the functional (player side) details needed for each class, descriptions as to where they fit into the lore, and I even have links to the quest text to unlock each of the schools, as unlocking schools is another way of differentiating and fit dragon play experience well. Essentially, I did everything short of programming them into the game myself ;p simply not in my power.

I'd love some feedback on those, as very few people gave any thoughts or response to it. Probably because it was astronomically long, but it was very detailed. I know the changes described would take awhile to implement and aren't high on the agenda of things to do for the game, but it would be good to have a rallying point to work from in regards to dragon choice and dragons going forward.

[AmonGwareth]

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

[Guaran]

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

Would love to hear more about this, fleshed out some.

So if it means new abilities that essentially "replace" or share 100% timers with say Gold Rage, Silver Strike, Ravage, would these be spell abilities? I posted some ideas about that in post 122. There could be room for a couple new melee abilities as well.

Can you give us a list of all the proposed new abilities, and what they would link with? Would like more information on the new schools. I am guessing there would be 2 new schools, Primalist and Conqueror?

Just as long as the new schools are not tied to Factions :)

[Litarath]

Thought of a way this might work. Create new schools, make them for Ancients only, require level 100 Adventurer, and then tie new abilities by keyword and recycle timer to existing quested abilities where appropriate. That would let you gain new abilities while taking care (potentially) of existing abilities that are of concern (namely the quested ones).

How about this instead... and I'm going to literally just change a few words from you.

Create new schools, make them for ALL dragons, require level 100 ADV and at least one level 100 in Craft in the case of a hatchling.

Let hatchlings have a little love, Ancients and Adults shouldn't get all the good bits... some good bits, yes, but not ALL.

[Essra]

Wow it's been a long time since I actually logged into the forums to comment. My name's even out of date. HAH.

Anyway.... I've got a few cents to add here!

You suggested replacing the current dragon class; you mentioned a "dragon juvenile" class. Here's my thought:

The only base class for dragons would be Juvenile. From there, every other class would be Prestige.

My thought is to require ascension to unlock the other classes. It would lock out the "Juvenile" class, preventing one from switching back to it - because, of course, there's no way to become a hatchling again!

Now the transition for old players would be difficult, but here are a few thoughts about how to handle that:
One: Don't remove Dragon Adventurer; perhaps revamp it, make it the middle path. When a Juvenile ascends, all levels are converted to Dragon Adventurer levels.
*Already ascended dragons would not change much beyond the class revamp and they could multiclass into Warrior/Adept if they so desired.
*Juvenile dragons would have their Dragon Adventurer levels converted to Juvenile levels. (I personally would like to see more of a dichotomy between hatchlings and adults, which is why I suggest this route - it seems silly to me that after the long rite of passage, all you really get is the ability to fly and some extra stats.

--Alternatively--
If the Dragon Adventurer school is abolished entirely, then old players could be handled one of two ways. First, they could have the option to re-class into either school of their choice, resetting their skill points and gaining appropriate levels in that school.

Secondly, they could be automatically re-classed based on their rites of passage; Lunus would become Warriors and Helian would become Adepts (because realistically, this is the most optimal path. However, this would cause lore issues: While lunus and helian are generically warriors and spellcasters respectively, it is my understanding that this rule is not absolute. It WOULD open up a rather compelling way to choose your ascension, however: having to undergo a very different quest to get a different class.


Closing thoughts:

I love the idea of a separate Juvenile class but I don't understand how it's intended to affect adult dragons. Keeping it available only to juveniles and then locking it away when they ascend would reward the players I know who enjoy playing level 100/100 hatchlings with something unique that nobody else has - but it would also allow for balance between hatchling and adult dragons.

I understand there are technical limitations, but as a leyman, I couldn't begin to guess there the lines are drawn.
Thoughts? Rebuttals? I know I'm a little late to the party. ^^.

[Hlec Etlhcrh]

Hello everyone. This is my first post; I originally submitted it as a ticket suggestion but I was correctly notified that I should post this here for everyone to see/discuss. I hope this adds value to the discussion!

Section 1: A question of uniqueness and diversity

Thoughts on Adept school:

When looking at the Adept school, I noticed that the casting potential is very diverse. Not only would such a school have access to elemental damage types not previously simply available to dragons through abilities/spells, but they also get some signature spells from various biped schools. Let us look at each of them one at a time and I will lay out the significance behind the propositions.

"Rez (Hoard) (Superior)"
This presumably corresponds with Superior Resurrect (given "Superior" in parentheses), which is currently exclusively available to the Healer school. This is one of the significant active abilities healers get access to, and it is unmasterable so it could never be used as any other school. The other unique and unmasterable abilities they are left with are Full Heal and the varying levels of Superior Heal. These abilities including Superior Resurrect are currently significant because:

• They are the unique "cream of the crop" abilities as a Healer, akin to Lightning Claws as a Storm Disciple.
• They provide a reason to play the school as your active school, as they are unavailable otherwise.

Making one of Healer's 3 desirable, significant, and signature spells available to the dragon adept school removes some of the little (but improved) existing reason to ever play as Healer. My view as such is that this is not productive design. It detracts significance from one school to add value to another.


"AoE Mez (Hoard) NEW (Ferocious Stare ?)"
This corresponds directly with Sorcerer's Area Spellbind. Such a significant AoE Mez is currently exclusively available to players with Sorcerer as their active school, as it is only obtained as a Sorcerer and is unmasterable. It uses the Mind skill, which is effectively only valuable for ensuring crowd control spells such as this actually apply to targets.

The developer proposition seems to be, for dragons, a spell that is roughly equivalent or (hopefully not) better for the purpose than Area Spellbind, which is only available to Sorcerers. This would not only devalue active school Sorcerers by making one of their most essential and unique skills available to your common adept school dragon, but it also diminishes reason to ever invest in the Mind skill, which is already lacking. The reason for the latter is that presumably, the dragon AoE mez will rely on the Primal skill, which will also benefit some of their various versatile dps spells and/or abilities (including "Bomb NEW (Primal Bomb?)"). Why invest in Mind as a biped sorcerer for the sake of crowd control quality when you could play an adept dragon where you would get crowd control quality and spell damage plus accuracy for most of your spells simply from investment into just Primal.


Thoughts on Juvenile school:

"Mez (Howl)"
A simple mez is okay, and this adds to the school in a way that does not significantly detract from existing schools.

"Root NEW"
I'm not sure why juvenile dragons need a root ontop of their mez and numerous close and far range proposed dps abilities.

"Self Buffs (Roar, Determination)"
They also seem to benefit from access to personal augmentations much like a cleric or healer would. Notice the fact that they are self buffs. While this helps prevent an issue of too may cross-player buffs, it doesn't encourage group play. In fact, removing this self buff access would promote grouping with players who can provide the benefit of buffs (referring specifically to some support specialized schools).

"Lower incoming attack (Negate) (Snarl)"
Defensive abilities directly akin to a warrior's. To be fair, this can't hurt. It gives a nod to defensive strategies as a dragon.

"Rez (high level) NEW (Primal Resurrect ?)"
Now, even resurrection, previously only available to support/niche schools.

"Gift (Self, All Stats)"
I'm not sure why such a spell is even necessary, especially given the reasons I mentioned in regards to the other self buffs.

My impression from the Juvenile Dragon School idea listing is that they get some of the best of every single one of the basic biped adventure schools, and then some bonus dps capabilities on top of that. It appears to be grossly overpowered compared to the basic biped schools individually (I'm referring to cleric, warrior, mage, and scout). It is effectively all of them at once, with no cost in rating, which is very significant. In particular, I can now see no reason to ever play warrior as an active school besides for the skill benefits for other schools. Juvenile does 90% of what warriors can and far more, although, they are slightly squishier. Not that the slight squishiness really matters very much when they have value from heals, buffs, rezzes, numerous forms of magic and melee dps, and both primary forms of crowd control. As is, Juvenile does not seem remotely balanced to me for all of these reasons.

One more small but important thing to delve into further: The Juvenile school does not encourage group play, unlike the basic biped schools seem to do, as they all complement each other in combat. Juvenile, on the other hand, does everything that could be needed in combat on its own. In my opinion, Istaria's combat is at its best when the experience involves two or more players. It showcases many valuable dynamics that are not very apparent when soloing. This notion of group play being valuable should thus be capitalized upon in school design.


Thoughts on Soldier school:

Soldier is much more well designed than the other two for the following reasons:

1. The school features abilities that encourage group play: "Bolster Friend", and "AoE Group Gift". Perhaps more actively used support abilities would be good as well. For example, an ability that intercepts only the very next attack made against a friendly selected target.
2. It has its own array of dps abilities and doesn't downright steal abilities from other schools... Wait.

Stop right there, "Enrage (More Strength) (Hoard)"! You look suspiciously like Berserker Rage, but possibly overall more useful, as you are lacking significant downsides. Hoard corresponds with wealth, and in the current state of the game, veteran players have copious amounts of wealth without much to spend it on (trinkets are helping to address this). As such, hoard cost is not a significant downside in the grand scheme of things, and thus should not be balanced around, in my opinion. As an added note, couldn't this enrage ability be abused to boost crafting/gathering skills? After all, it does provide a significant buff to strength. This problem was avoided with the various biped equivalents (Berserker Rage, Unbridled Energy) by having the abilities specifically adjust only combat related modifiers (attack delay, damage percent).


Section 2: Resolve

I understand that the goal is to continue to have dragons be versatile and yet unique characters, and that two of the proposed schools serve as specialization into areas of that versatility. However, versatility is not productively obtained by simply copying it from somewhere else. Not only would these proposed ability lists be eliminating what uniqueness dragons had ability/spell-wise by giving them a myriad of abilities equivalent to biped specialties, but you're removing reason to play as various biped schools. These ability lists are often taking those biped's schools most signature abilities and making them available to dragons schools which have access to a plethora of other copied specialty abilities, along with their own array of abilities.

It raises a question of why play as an active school Sorcerer when you can play as a dragon who is very generously equivalent to Sorcerer, Healer, and Battle Mage all as active schools at the same time. After all, Dragon Adept has two of the non-masterable abilities from Sorcerer and Healer, and have the melee/magic dps capabilities of an active Battle Mage or better.

My recommended strategy is to further build upon what uniqueness dragons already have, rather than taking the best parts from other schools and making a dragon equivalent. That way, value is strictly added, rather than creating overlap that invalidates numerous schools.

Build upon the prime skill, something bipeds do not have access to. Don't tell me it's not possible to create unique abilities or spells that don't overlap with others in a terrible way. Just look at how unique Chaos Warrior's abilities are. Those unique abilities don't even stem strictly from a damage type or skill. Rather, they derive from a concept of randomness/chaos and CHSW is a result of incorporating that into a school, along with some Energy magic for flavor.

In closing, I'll say that I would really hate to see the uniqueness of both dragons and bipeds getting diminished by tossing around signature abilities and thus capabilities as schools. I appreciate the developers for continuing to build upon the great game I had the pleasure of growing up with, and I appreciate the time any of you have invested into reading this.

Thank you,
Hlec/Doloire